Episode 21 Suffering for Jesus

speaker-0: Welcome to Thrive on Mission, the podcast of the CRA. I'm Dave Jones and as always with the Associate Director of the Christian Restoration Association, Jim Book. Jim, it's great to see you again and so glad that you can be a part of our podcast.

speaker-1: I love doing this, Dave. We've had such great response from a lot of preachers, lay leaders who watch this. And ⁓ if if you know anything, folks, about me and Dave, we're probably just about down to earth as you come. This is ⁓ heavy practical. ⁓ there's a lot of theology, but it's it's heavy practical. It's just taking the scriptures that we've that are so relevant and just putting them into real life scenarios. So ⁓ if that's what you're interested in and and you want, I think you're gonna like this podcast.

speaker-0: Yeah, hopefully a whole lot of Bible and a little bit of practical common sense along the way, right? Yeah. Some good experiences. Well, one of the things we've had the pleasure of doing ⁓ in this podcast, episode by episode, is giving a game ball. And ⁓ we've got a guy that's on your Zoom call every month. He's in the trenches, just doing some good work. Archie Gilmer is at the Oak Grove Christian Church. Jim, you have anything to add about Archie? We think he'd be a good game ball winner this time. He would be.

speaker-1: So right? He's just, you know, Archie's one of those guys that's just burning out for the Lord in a good way, small town, ⁓ you know, West Virginia. He's been there faithfully serving the Lord for years. And ⁓ it's great to catch up with him every month on our big Zoom call that we do with preachers. And and ⁓ so I'm I'm glad we're at throwing the ball his direction. He's doing a wonderful work and he's just a salt of the earth kind of guy.

speaker-0: So you mentioned or I mentioned first, I guess, the Zoom call. Why don't you describe that a little bit and if anybody wants to get involved in that, how to do so?

speaker-1: Thanks, Dave, for for ⁓ stating that because I've had a different different guys will say, Hey, can you invite this preacher? I think he'd like to be a part of that. So once a month, what we do is we just do a one-hour Zoom call to we, I think we got 65 preachers on our Zoom call, and we'll add more. If you want to get on, please let me know. ⁓ but it's just a guest speaker ⁓ speaking into how to become a mission 120 church. And if you don't want a mission one, if you don't know what that is, it's simply this. We took Acts 113. There was 120 that worked with the apostles to help launch the church. What would happen if every church in America, Christian Church, Church of Christ, could aim for 120 in attendance over the next four years? Or like Dave, many of you, like you and other churches, you're well over that. You guys are shooting for 120 baptisms over four years. Whatever the case, it's it's putting church growth from a biblical perspective back on the radar in our churches, okay? We're going to talk about growth. We're not going to run from that term anymore. Okay. And so helping churches do this, but giving practical information. So we had ⁓ Jeff fall on two months ago, and and he really has done such a great job with just at Mount Gilead, and he's since retired, but really helping that church focus on Connect class, how to get people connected to the Lord through a connect class. So la month after that, Race Martin with Cyova chur ⁓ church evangelism spoke of the DNA program that they now have. So churches can use to know exactly who's in their town, ⁓ socioeconomic status, ⁓ gender, age, ⁓ you know, socioeconomic. ⁓ so boom, ⁓ he was a speaker. Last month we had ⁓ the Lake Mount Church of Christ, an elder, Rick, I think was his name, and ⁓ Jason Coles, the preacher, and just how they are growing working together with eldership preacher. You know, lot of churches like, ⁓ the preacher's high profile. You know, you just he is like a magnet. Who are the elders? I don't know. Then you got you got the elders who, you know, their job is just to beat the preacher on the ground every Sunday, okay, for whatever reason. These guys have a great relationship. And one reason why Lake Mountain is growing so well is because the harmonious relationship that the elders have with Jason and Jason has with the elders. And Dave, we all know that Jason's a difficult guy to work with. Near impossible. So for his elders to work with him, I mean it's amazing. Just kidding. They are doing great things and they work together so well. And it's a harmonious walk. And so our guys got a chance to hear what a healthy relationship looks like between preacher and elder, elder and preacher.

speaker-0: Hey Jim, I just want to say I really appreciate the ⁓ leadership you've taken and ⁓ it's almost like giving churches permission pursue growth. And we realize that we don't add to the church, the Lord adds to the church, he's the one that, you know, it's his church, and we're just doing his work on his behalf, all of those things. We get that. But it's almost as if for a long time a lot of our churches have been afraid ⁓ to really risk. things and try new things. And and there's a label that's often thrown on churches that are growing as if they've turned liberal because they're actually baptizing people into Christ. Right. And that's not the case. It's really just the desire to to do what that church in Acts was doing. So I appreciate your leadership in this and your efforts in helping the church become what God called it to be.

speaker-1: Well, thank you. And I'll tell you what they what's exciting is just reports are coming back over and over from churches. And you're right, there is no magic formula, there's no magic bullet. You know, there's like, ⁓ no, you're not gonna believe what I'm already to tell you. It's it's never been heard of before. It it's almost so fundamentally elementary. I'm almost embarrassed because when people say, Tell me about mission one twenty, I said, Okay. ⁓ it's getting everybody in the church on board about growth and invitations and offering a specific class for those folks. And And getting your elders to talk about mission 120 before they talk about anything else and saturating growth and discipleship in prayer. I know it sounds almost elementary, but it's funny how we kind of lost sight of that over the years. I don't know if we thought putting up a big building or having a couple of really, really talented people on staff would just be the magnet of church to explode. But really, as if you explore this passage from 1 Peter 4, 7 through 16, growth was very intentional in the New Testament and it and it still has to be today. But it's not impossible. It's not impossible. It's very doable.

speaker-0: Yeah. And in these last few weeks of this first season, and this will be our last episode for this season until season two, we've got a lot of great things in store ⁓ in the fall that I think a lot of folks will be excited about. But we're talking about an unstoppable church as being a spirit-led church. And last week we talked about that church shares the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the importance of that, starting with the leadership and the passion and the heart. For evangelizing others has to really start with the the guys that are on the stage and leading and shepherding the church. And then we just have to equip the church to do that and give them opportunities to do so. Yeah, yeah. And and putting the the what they need in their hands. I really like your focus on having invite cards and the mission one twenty brochure and things that people can use to just share with their neighbors what's going on in their church and in their lives. What's a

speaker-1: Absolutely.

speaker-0: Just a ideal thing for us there. And ⁓ we're gonna hit this morning on something that could come across as being something that would actually cause people not to pursue Jesus, and that is an unstoppable church is prepared to suffer for the name and cause of Christ. Peter in first Peter four twelve says, Do not be surprised by the fiery trial when it comes upon you. Why is this such a key part, Jim, in our our efforts of advancing the message?

speaker-1: Well, we in America are so blessed because ⁓ I think it's a blessing, you know, maybe it's a curse, but I'm gonna I'm gonna treat it as a blessing that we don't have to wonder when I pull up to my ⁓ church service on Sunday, am I gonna be arrested? ⁓ are there gonna be chains on the door? ⁓ is my family gonna be ripped apart. You know, we we just have never experienced the kind of persecution that they do in Myanmar and China and Iran. And it's amazing that, you know, I was just reading an article yesterday. The church is exploding in China more than ever before. Even in Iran, a million plus professed Christians in light of a very tyrannical dictatorial regime. And but but you know, I don't know that ⁓ we could function in our minds, don't know that we could even imagine that. And I ⁓ hope we don't to. But the reality is the early church was birthed out of persecution. And it's amazing, it grew. It flourished under enormous persecution. There's a verse that that I I just I resonates with me, and it's in Acts the ⁓ the fourth chapter. And being let go, that's that's Peter and John, they went to their own companions. They went back to the church and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. And when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said, Lord, you are God who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them. And ⁓ they said, Lord, turn their threats and grant to your servants that with boldness we may continue to speak your word. So the more they threaten them, the more bold they became. Now we struggle, mentioned this last week. We struggle getting our people to simply invite someone to church. You know, they're not gonna go to jail for doing it, just an invitation. And yet the early church ramped it up so the more persecuted they were, the more bold they became. So I I'm just I I want us to now operate with with clarity and conviction without persecution. Because if we can't grow a church with no persecution, how in the world are we going to do it if we face the persecution the early church did? I I really wonder are we gonna can we survive at all? I don't want to experience that. I don't want to find out why can't we just enjoy the freedoms that we have in America and be a and be as outspoken for God as we can? share a faith with no apologies because we can. And and let's see if we can grow the church under not persecution, but spiritual freedom.

speaker-0: That passage always strikes me that they didn't pray that their persecutors would move, leave them alone. They prayed for boldness. They weren't looking to escape what was inevitable, really, because I really appreciated what you said there. They they had conviction in what they believed. And ⁓ maybe we're pursuing comfort too much in the modern church today and not conviction in the cause of Christ. ⁓

speaker-1: Right. So again, and and this in and of itself is not wrong. So please understand that. A lot of websites, the first thing they tell you is come relaxed. We don't expect anything from you. ⁓ dress however you want. ⁓ we're not going to ask anything of you. And I I understand to a degree why they say that. They're trying to remove all the hurdles and inhibitions that people have about church. You know, come as you are. And I get that. But is there an underlying message that we're sending to our people? And that is we expect nothing of you. Here's my point. It's driven to the seeker, but do we ever, ever graduate the seeker to a higher expectation? And I think that's one reason why they stay consumers forever. Because we bring them in with no expectations. When they become Christians, we expect nothing from them. And because we expect nothing from them, they give us nothing. And that's why, as we mentioned last week, you have this. This chasm between the hierarchy of the church, the laity down here, and the prof paid professionals. And we never see that gap shrink. So at some point in the conversation, you know, we got to come up with the words that Jesus did, thou must deny thyself every day and follow after me. And it was a Jeff Fall that said, I was, Dave, I think I was at Lake James Christian camp about four years ago, three years ago. At the tri-state revival, and Jeff spoke just before me, and he said something I'll never forget. He said, You know, Christians, we've we've got to start looking good on a cross. And I know that we hate the term cross because it's a crucifixion. It's it's you know, it's it's it is associated with pain and suffering and denial. But he says, Christians, we have to get we have to start looking good on a cross because that's where we're supposed to be. We got to sacrifice and deny ourselves every day. And that's something Americans don't like to do. American Christians don't like. But we have to start looking good on the cross again, because that's how the early church looked and they grew.

speaker-0: Yeah. And Jim, I think it starts with leadership once again in that area. I I know I have been guilty of presenting the gospel in such a way that come to Jesus in your life will be better. He'll fix your drug problem, your alcohol, your sex issues, your marriage problems. Because he's got he does have answers for all of those things in the Bible. And as a bonus, you get to go to heaven. So why wouldn't you become a Christian? But it's interesting, you know, that Jesus says if you're going to follow me, you're going to suffer. And it almost becomes a little bit of a bait and switch. We invite you in with all that appeals about Christianity. And then eventually we preach a sermon about, hey, by the way, we need you to start giving your money and we need to start showing up more often. And you have to start doing this. And here's another opportunity for your serve. We know you're wore out, but this is what you have to do. And so, as opposed to preaching, lordship salvation, it's really a consumer based salvation. It's not salvation at all in the end.

speaker-1: No, I well, I think we got very comfortable with presenting Jesus as a savior, but we we we diminish the role of him as Lord, but you can't have him as savior and not Lord, period. That's why Paul says no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. I've crucified the old man. So I'm wondering if we should flip the tables on this whole way in which we introduce people to the church. And that and that is we start diminishing how comfortable we want to make it on people. And I don't mean go the other extreme. But I think in our connect classes, we need to say, hey, first of all, we are glad you were here. ⁓ this is a very inclusive church. We include everybody in this class. I don't care who you are, what's your background, we want everybody included in our first steps class. But Jesus is very exclusive in the fact that no one can come to the Father but through him. And Romans six talks about crucifying the old man. That means putting to the old man and I really we're still slaves. We're just not slaves to the world anymore, but we're slaves to Christ. I don't care. Who you are, you're slave to something. But then we need to remind them if you become a slave to Christ, here's the guarantee that you have. And you just said it beautifully, David. You get a the Holy Spirit as your as as your comforter and counselor. You have heaven as your reward. And you have a you have a companion. You have a a community of Christians that you can lean on till Christ comes back or he calls you home. That's how the early church grew. It grew because there was community, there was rich fellowship. You can't get that outside the church. But I think maybe we need to start. toning down this ⁓ seeker sensitive role of you know we make it as easy on everybody as possible because think when we do that, we really sell them on a concept that's ⁓ that's unscriptural. Th there is so much denial that goes into being a Christian. A constant no to self, yes to Jesus. And ⁓ and I don't I think we we just don't do a good enough job promoting that side of Christianity. But that's the that's that is the side of Christianity that was prevalent in the early church.

speaker-0: Yeah. How do you I it's sort of what you described, I could picture you come to our church and we're gonna give you a cross on your way out. And that doesn't sound a whole lot of ⁓ very encouraging to me and very hopeful. How do we present the hope of the gospel and the burden of carrying our cross, which it is, but we have to be reminded of the the the joy that Christ gives. How do you how do you walk that line, Jim?

speaker-1: I okay, so the cross is could be considered a burden, but when you think about it, you're carrying the instrument that really brought us life. When Christ died on the cross, it gave us life. If you look at it as a cross of no denial, ⁓ misery, you know, kind of like the Huguenots did, you know, they just beat themselves with change. But really, the cross is the most identifiable tool that the Christian has to show the world I have hope. It is no longer I who live at Christ lives in. Paul wasn't saying that like I don't have a say in how I he was illuminating to the world how free he was in Christ. When I gave myself to Christ, I actually found freedom for the first time. Now, my dad used to use this as an illustration. He said the Marine Corps is the toughest branch to get into, but it's the branch that every young man wants to go to because the standards are so high that when a kid gets into the Marines, He really has just ultimately given everything to get there. He says, notice the Marines don't lower their standards to bring in recruits. The higher the standard, the more people want to go. I think we've made Christianity so convenient. So convenient. We never move them from fan to follower. They get to stay fans forever. So let me ask you question. What do we do with a person who stays as a fan and not a follower? You go to a football game, your favorite team. You got a nosebleed section you're sitting in. You paid $750 for a seat next to Saturn, the planet. I mean, it's how far you are. Someone walks up to you and says, Hey, how would you like to come on the field and stand next to the players on the sidelines? What? I get to do that. Yeah. You get to trade your place in the stands for a place on the field. You would jump at each other to do that. But we don't do that in church. We let people stay fans forever. When if we would invite them to a deeper relationship with Christ, built on sacrifice, but with a hope of blessings, we assume that they don't ever want to leave the stands. When in reality, I think they are dying to leave the stands if we would invite them to. So I think just as preachers and leaders, we just got to do a better job of saying, hey, it's going to cost you to be in this church. We're going to ask you for your money. We're going to ask you for some time. We're going to need you to give your talents here. But like the Marines, they never really have hard time recruiting because there's always someone that wants to put it out there to get that. And I think people are dying to trade their place in the grandstand for a place on the field. I do. And that's our job to help coach them from the stands to the playing field.

speaker-0: You know, the great thing that we're observing in many churches is people are getting on the playing field and they don't have to give up the cushioned seat on a Sunday morning and the air conditioning. Because I love both of those things. But while they have those things, we're also calling them to something higher and reminding them of the purpose of the gospel and giving them something to do, number one, that fits their skill set.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: You know, that's that's one of the key things we've overlooked in the church for so many years. If you're a guy in the church, the only way you can serve is just passing the trays. I mean, that does nothing for me. You know, I wanna I want to have an opportunity to contribute and and lead and motivate people, right? And so we have to have in mind ⁓ that the work of the church goes beyond Sunday morning and trying to get as many people as possible involved.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: in the ministry of the church seven days a week. And that takes sacrifice. That takes time. That takes effort to do those kinds of things. So just giving them opportunities to serve and be involved in the community and in the church as we go out into the world that we live in.

speaker-1: I I do believe, I really do, I do believe people right now, and I think one reason why Gen Z, and I I didn't I gave no hope to Gen Zers. I I should have, but I was like, I'm done with this. This this this group is nuts. But what we have seen is a mass revival within Gen Zers towards Christianity. But they, if you interview them and listen to them talk, they want nothing to do with a religion that asks of them nothing. They don't. They want something they can totally believe in, something that's going to call for 100% dedication. And and and then they don't want to compartmentalize it on a Sunday morning. They want to live this concepts, these belief systems throughout the week. Well, isn't that what Jesus was teaching all along? Wasn't that what he was advocating for? And I think we our terminology has has got us in trouble. We use terms like we're going to church. Well, we're not going to something that we are. So we got to start working on our language because I think we deceive ourselves and our people when we reduce church to a building and an hour on Sunday, when as you said, Dave, it is a lifestyle. It's a complete and total lifestyle. It's a worldview. It's not an hour long, it's a lifetime long. And we're going to call for investment. We're going to ask you to holistically invest in in the kingdom work. We're going to ask you to advance the kingdom all the time. Now, if you're advancing something all the time, you're talking about all the time, and that's where evangelism comes into play. Because if you're limited, you're talking about it, not just on Sunday, but throughout the week.

speaker-0: if you're living it, you don't need a whole lot of evangelism classes, do you? ⁓ People are asking you for the hope that lies within you, as we talked about last week. They're just wondering why why this is so important to you. Why do you get up every Sunday morning and go to worship? ⁓ do you take time out of your week to do a A small group with some people on your house on a Thursday night, you know, why do you take time to read your Bible at lunch when all of us are having fun in the cafeteria? Those kinds of conversations are gonna naturally happen if we're living out our faith.

speaker-1: So the question is, why do I? We need to turn around and go, why wouldn't I? And why aren't you? You know, let's put it back on them, you know. we're talking about suffering thing, you know, verse 12 a church unstoppable, first Peter 4 12 is one that suffers for the name of Christ. Now, I I can I share an illustration of something that happened in my travels. I was speaking at the Kaimichi Clinic. Now, a lot of our viewers know exactly what that is. Located in the heart of Oklahoma, the mountains of Oklahoma. ⁓ back in the 70s, my dad took me and my brother, I think I was like fourth grade, and the 8,000 men. I mean, these are God-fearing men. And so I was asked to speak ⁓ a couple of years ago, and there was about 800. So it's not nearly as big as it was in the 70s, but ⁓ I was honored to come speak. And there was a speaker that was ahead of me. And and as he closed out his message, he he made a very thought-provoking question to the audience. He said, If terrorists were to come in here right now and threaten you to deny Christ or they would kill you, how many men would ⁓ would stand up for Christ and die for Christ tonight? If you would, would you stand? Well of course ⁓ first of all, ninety percent of the guys under that tent were all carrying guns. Okay, that's which is so I'm like, okay. I hope the the bad guys are well armed because I know these guys are ⁓ but but Before long, every man in the audit auditorium was standing. And then we applauded. We all applauded ourselves for in a in a rural part of conservative Oklahoma where the Muslim terrorists, I don't know if they were directed to Muslim terrorists, but there probably wasn't one within 7,000 miles. every every it was a very speculatory question. But every man stood and we applauded ourselves for dying for Christ, potentially, although we weren't, but we were ready to. But I was I was concerned because it was all hypothetical. Nobody was going to die that night for Jesus. Nobody. But I was concerned that there were a bunch of us there that weren't sure if we were going to live for him. Because we haven't thus far. So of course, at the end of my sermon, I said, I don't know that I would die for Christ. I think I would. But you know, Peter said he would, and he screwed up before the night was over. So I don't want to dare go out on a limb and go, I'll do this for you, Lord, because the last guy that said that didn't end very well. But I I said, I know we can make this decision tonight. And we don't have to wonder what we do. Are you prepared to live for him? Because you can do that right now. And I said, if you're prepared, live for him, will you stand? So I I I know that that I would love to think, yes, I would suffer for the Lord, even if I had to give my life. But I do know this. Today, on this day, I can make a decision to live for him. So can those in our our audience. They they can make that decision and our church can make that decision. And if if we can make that decision, then let's make it. Yes, this day I will live for you. I will let my light shine. I will be the salt, not of the shaker. I'll be the salt of the earth. And I will I will I will be an influencer for Jesus today.