Genesis 6 and the Problem with the Sethite View - Mailbag

Hello and welcome back to the Christ our cornerstone

church podcast. This is another mailbag and I

knew after my sermon. this past week, which was

called The Voices That Beg. And we got into a

little bit about demonology, just a touch. And

I shared that. I don't what I believe demons

are, what I think is the biblical presence, precedence

for demons, and that is that they are the disembodied

spirits of Nephilim. And I knew that. It would

cause some questions, which is good. And I'm

glad. And so I had one of our members reach out

and they asked, well, what about the sethite

view? Because that's what I thought Genesis six

was about. But I'm not sure what to do with Nephilim

and all that jazz. So this is a great, great

question. And if you're not familiar with the

sethite view, that's OK. I'm going to give you

what the sethite view is in just a moment. But

I will tell you that. I held the Sethite view.

There's actually four views of Genesis six and

you may be going, what is Genesis six? Well,

I will read it. Let me grab a Bible here and

turn to Genesis six. It's a passage that typically,

specifically we as Americans in church don't.

Like to wrestle with, and we don't hear a lot

of sermons about it, but when you when you get.

into the nitty gritty of it. And you actually

get a biblical defense for Genesis six. Then

you begin to see how all of scripture makes sense.

And here's Genesis six, OK, Genesis six, starting

verse one, it says when man began to multiply

on the face of the land and daughters were born

to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters

of man were attractive and they took as their

wives any they chose. Then the Lord said to them,

My spirit shall not abide in man forever, for

he is flesh. His day shall be one hundred and

twenty years. The Nephilim. So that's verse four.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days

and also afterward when the sons of God came

into the daughters of man and they bore children

to them. These were the mighty men who were of

old, the men of renown. So what do we do with

that? So Let me go back. So again, I held to

for a very long time the sethite view and there's

four actual views. I won't go into the other

the other two because they're just not to me.

They're they're not even close to being. Correct.

And so. I didn't want to take on the Nephilim

giant angels cohabitating with humans view because

I felt. It tapped too much into my charismatic

Pentecostal upbringing of kookiness and weirdness.

And I just wanted to put that stuff away. And

it wasn't until I was graduating with my undergrad

at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary that

one of the professors came in and he just said,

hey, read Genesis six. This was literally like

right before. We're practicing for graduation.

He comes in and he says, uh, into a room, there's

about a hundred of us in this room. And he says,

uh, here's the four views of Genesis six. You

read Genesis six, and then you tell me, you give

me a defense for why that is. So I went into

the view of set that view mostly because when

I read it in context, it feels like. You know,

it's going through the genealogy, it's going

through, you know, creation, the creation account,

the sin account, all that jazz. And we're getting

all the genealogy. And then all of a sudden,

it's just like, boom, out of nowhere, it feels

like where in the world did this come from? And

so for me, logically, I was going, all right,

well, I'm going logically based on context. Well,

something very interesting was all of the Hebrew.

scholar majors, those that specialized with their

degree in the biblical languages, all held to

the Nephilim, sons of God, divine counsel view.

I will go into that in just a minute. And I couldn't

understand it. And then slowly, I just began

to meet people. And then my Hebrew professor,

which I will quote a lot of Dr. Michael Heiser,

reason being is because he, God rest his soul,

he just passed away a year or two ago. But he

was a conservative scholar. He's the brainchild

behind Logos Bible Software. But he's also the

world leading expert on ancient languages. And,

and so He he was really influential and for me

to start to understand, oh, the Bible is completely

supernatural and I can't just in my own discomfort

sanitize it because it feels kooky. And he would

he was famous for saying in the the weird parts

of the Bible are not meant to be explained away,

but they're important and for us to truly dig

in to understand it. And we should try to understand

it from the standpoint of. the way the ancient

Hebrews and the early church, like how they understood

it. And so the Sethite view would be this, that,

oh, it wasn't angels. Sons of God does not mean

angels coming down and rebelling against God

and having sex with women. It means sons of God,

as in Seth, the biblical line of God. cohabitating

with the daughters of Cain and creating another,

what we would say is a sinful line, not a supernatural

line, but just they were conceived in sin, right?

So with that being said, that's the Sethite view.

I take a now a very literal view of what the

sons of God means. And I'm going to give you

all the reasons why that is. And so the thing

that I would say is most people hold to that

interpretation of Genesis six, not because it's

biblical and is the most systematic. They hold

to it really out of discomfort because they're

like, no, that just, that seems too kooky. That

seems to much like Greek pantheon gods and all

this stuff. And it's like, well, there's something

to all that. And so one of the reason that we

explain it the way that we do is because the

text on its own feels like it's just too strange.

And Genesis six is one of those passages that

tend to be sanitized a lot. And we try to smooth

it out and we try to make it safe. And we turn

it into a moral lesson about dating the wrong

people when that's not at all what it is. And

honestly, it fractures the scriptures completely

because the seeds that we find out about in Genesis

three, when God talks about the seed, the seed

of Eve and the seed of the serpent would be at

odds. This comes down to it. And so. you fracture

the scriptures and you actually take portions

of it out and you mess up a lot of what is actually

happening to make the scriptures holistic. And

so Genesis six isn't about intermarriage, it's

not about marrying someone who's not a Christian

or for their sake, like a Jew. Someone or a godly

line like that's not what it is at all, but it's

actually about an invasion. Yes, I said an invasion

because on Mount Hermon. You have these angels

who rebel. Actual angels. They rebel against

God. And they take and they go where they make

a pact and they see the daughters of men. And

they're like, you know what, we're going to create

our own seed. And what they're trying to do is

circumvent Jesus coming, because they knew that

that God would have a seed. And so they're trying

to circumvent that by creating their own seed.

And I already can hear the pushback. I will get

to all of that, but let me start here. OK, so

let's talk about why Genesis six is angels creating.

cohabitating with humans, human women and creating

the Nephilim. And so we first have to look at

the actual text. And so the meaning of B 'nei

Ha Elohim, which that phrase itself, B 'nei Ha

Elohim means that's Hebrew for sons of God. So

throughout all of the Old Testament, that phrase

is used consistently. You see it in Job and it

always refers to divine beings or members of

a heavenly host. It doesn't refer to. Godly people

or the the line of Seth, it just doesn't. And

so there is no clear place in the Hebrew Bible

where sons of God refers to human beings. Let

alone the specific line of Seth, it just it's

not there in all of scripture. it always refers

to. You can look at Psalm 82. You can look at

Job, like I said, everywhere it is. It's always

been a hot Elohim. Which refers to heavenly host,

not humans. And so the sethite view ask us to

accept a meaning of the scripture itself that

it never uses. And that's a problem. We cannot

look at scripture and go. Well, this makes me

feel uncomfortable or this is weird. And so therefore

it must be this. And it's only this at this one

time and all the other places it refers to heavenly

house. We can't do that. We have to be consistent

in our interpretation. So that's the first thing.

So Bneiha Elohim, what that means and where it's

at in scripture. So that's the first thing. Here's

the second thing. Now we have to look at the

structure of the text. OK, so like I told you,

I originally was looking at it in context, OK,

genealogies, blah, blah, blah. And then all of

a sudden it feels like Genesis six comes out

of nowhere. And it's like, what the what in the

world is this? Right. But we have to dig into

the into where we're at in Genesis six and says,

now let's look at the structure of the text.

OK, you've got sons of God. Contrasted with the

daughters of Adam or the daughters of men, humanity,

OK? So if the author wanted to describe two human

groups, he had the language to do it because

he it's right there. He could have just said

the daughters of Cain. He doesn't do that. He

could have also just said. Ungodly. I mean, it's

all like he has he has the vocabulary to do so.

Why would he use Baneha Elohim, sons of God?

He doesn't do that, he doesn't say. daughters

of Cain or the ungodly, the daughters of the

ungodly, whatever. He doesn't do that. Instead,

he contrasts when it reads naturally as divine

beings with human women. That's just the plain

reading of the text. Next, then you've got the

Nephilim problem. OK, so then when you hit the

whole thing of the Nephilim were on the earth

in those days, right? This is where the Sethi

view really breaks down and the person that asked

a question even said, like, I don't know what

to do with the Nephilim then. Yes, because the

Nephilim are a special breed that comes out of

nowhere. OK, God didn't make them so. Here's

the question. Why would the union of two groups

of humans produce something abnormal in a whole

new race of people? People, Christians marry

non -Christians or Christians will have sex with

non -Christians. It still happens today. It's

happened all throughout time. And we're not seeing

giants being born. We're not seeing people with

six fingers and six toes be born. And so this

is where it breaks down. So when the text says

that they cause them Nephilim, it calls them

gibberoam or gibberum. which just means mighty

men or men of renown. What happens when you marry

a believer and a nonbeliever, you don't create

a super legendary figure that is incredibly strong,

incredibly large, right? I remember I had a professor.

When I was asking, this is this is back when

I was at a charismatic university and he was

over apologetics and I said. uh, what do we do

with giants and all this stuff? And he's like,

we still have giants today. And I'm like, we

do. And he goes, yeah, like they're called the

MBA. And it's like, what? No, man, like these,

like these people seem bigger than what we see

today. Um, and they are because there are actual

tombs and things that we have found, uh, that,

I mean, even in, even in Genesis, where it talks

about Og, Right. And Moses kills Og and or is

it Abraham? Abraham or Moses, I can't remember

right now, but they kill Og. Og is a giant. He

is a king of giants. And it talks about his bed

being 20 feet long. We know of tombs that are

14, 15, 16 feet long like this. This isn't just

about NBA players. OK, this is about huge people

with huge strength. And so it it. to get the

Nephilim, you have to have some sort of supernatural

or I should say unnatural blending of lines.

OK, so that's the next thing of why I hold to

that. So here's here's another one. Let's talk

about the New Testament confirmation. And I'm

going to get to the pushback of what about angels

can't have sex. OK, I'm going to get to that.

But the New Testament doesn't ignore. this view

either. So 2 Peter, it talks about how these,

there were specific angels that sinned and were

cast into Tartarus. Why would they be cast into

Tartarus and already put to judgment? And they

will face another, the second judgment, but they've

already been cast. And why would Jesus go to

hell and preach? Like, who's he talking to? Well,

seems like these angels Again, Mount Hermon,

why would they have taken an oath together to

commit this sin against God? Why would it only

be these angels sent to Tartarus? What have they

had done? And Jude, I'm gonna read Jude. So Jude,

verse six, oh man, I just lost my place, here

we go. And Jude says this in verse six. And the

angels who did not stay within their own position

of authority, but left their proper dwelling,

he has kept an eternal change under gloomy darkness

until the judgment of the great day. And then

don't miss the next verse. Just as Sodom and

Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise

indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural

desire, serve as an example. by undergoing a

punishment of eternal fire. Did you catch the

very next verse? So Jude says that these angels

left their proper dwelling and then he immediately

connects it to sexual immorality. That connection

isn't just random. Like it's there for a purpose.

And so these authors aren't inventing something

new. They're actually drawing from a shared understanding

that is rooted in Genesis six. It's not a breakdown

of human genealogy. It's a supernatural rebellion.

That's what this is. And so then we've got to

we've got to do this. OK, so if we have the sethite

view, if we hold the sethite view. All right.

Why the flood then? The flood doesn't like. If

we just have intermarriage. Between an ungodly

and godly person. The flood does not match. It

just doesn't. So if we think about the flood

and the Sethite view, the cause is intermarriage,

right? But does that really justify the destruction

of all flesh? And the supernatural view of Genesis

six represents something far more serious, right?

A violation of the boundaries that God had established

between heaven and earth, which is what Jude

is talking about. When it says that they left

their They went with it. Let me make sure I get

it right. They left there. They did not stay

within their own position of authority, but left

their proper dwelling. And then they they. They

take on these women. OK. So. It would make sense

that you have a flood that is more than just

a moral failure. Because it's about a cosmic

rebellion. And that helps explain the scale of

the judgment of why God is trying to get rid

of. And by the way, what does that mean for Noah?

Why would Noah be because Noah wasn't considered

perfect. So why would Noah be the chosen one

and his family? Because Noah was the only one,

quote unquote, from a DNA perspective, considered

perfect. He was a true human. and he followed

after God. But then how do we get giants after

that? Well, if you think about the fact that

you have Noah's sons and they had already had

wives, you can still have that lineage being

passed down. But that's for another time. But

here's the biggest pushback, all right? Well,

angels can't have sex. Jesus says that. In Matthew

Matthew 22:30

22 verse 30, it says that angels Angels are spirits.

That's what we say. Angels are spirits. They

don't have bodies. And Jesus and Matthew says

that they don't marry. Well, yeah, exactly. It

says they don't marry. It doesn't say that they

can't have sex. So I want you to notice Jesus

doesn't say angels are incapable. He just says

they don't marry. That's not about their inability

to do that. It's more about a role. They don't

marry. They don't they don't take unions together

to procreate. They don't do that. They don't

need to. An angel is a role. It is a job description.

It's not a person. An angel just means messenger.

And there's many different types of angels. There's

many different levels to angels. We can see that

in Isaiah and Jeremiah, we can see that in Job,

we can see that in Ezekiel. There's different

types of angels. They, they, they look different.

And so that's what you have to understand is

when you use the term angel, it's not, it's a,

it's a, you're doing a job description. You're

not describing a person. That's like saying a

garbage man. If you said garbage man to describe

a human, that doesn't make it much sense. Right.

And so it's not about an inability to procreate.

And Jude six tells us or Jude one six, I should

say. tells us that these angels left their proper

domain. So whatever happened in Genesis six,

it involves stepping outside of what God intended.

But then we've got to talk about, well, but they're

not physical beings. Okay, well, hold on. Let's

talk about the physical nature of spiritual beings.

Here's something that we tend to miss, which

is why I said this week why I believe that demons

are disembodied spirits of Nephilim. not of fallen

angels. Okay? In scripture, when spiritual beings

appear, they are physical. In Genesis 18, they

eat. In Genesis 19, the men of Sodom want to

sleep with them. And there's a whole thing I

can go down with that on why they want to. But

there's no confusion about what they are. They

see them as physical. The Bible doesn't present

spiritual beings as intangible clouds. Even Jesus,

when his resurrected body is physical, he eats.

They touch him. They can feel him. They can interact

with the physical world. So the idea of them

taking on a physical form is not foreign to the

text of Genesis 6. It's only foreign to us because

it feels weird, right? At the end of the day,

the objection often comes because we're trying

to force a modern category onto an ancient worldview.

So we hear spirit and assume non -material, but

the scripture doesn't operate that way. If God

can take on flesh, then clearly the line between

spiritual and physical is not as rigid as we

tend to think that it is. Okay, like they're

not a mist. And so the issue in Genesis six,

isn't whether it was possible, the issue is that

it was forbidden. And so when you begin to see

that begins to, the scriptures begin to unfold

a whole lot more. So when we talk about the authority

of Jesus and what he has given to us, it begins

to make a whole lot more sense when he says all

authority in heaven and on earth has been given

to me and I now give it to you. Like that, that

is the crux. Follow scripture. And so here's

the bottom line. The Sethite view doesn't arise

naturally from the text. It's a reaction to it.

And it actually comes from the 14th century,

by the way, like that's when it began to come

around, because the early church held to a Genesis

six of you. That's also why Moses doesn't give

us this long thing about long diatribe, about.

Nephilim and whatever, because his. His readers

would have already known what they are. They

would have already known the story. They would

have already they've seen giants themselves like

they know all this stuff. It's just us in the

modern world that goes as this is weird. And

so we attempt to make it comfortable and more

explainable, so it's less supernatural. But Genesis

six isn't trying to be comfortable for us. It's

showing us a world where rebellion isn't just

human, it's cosmic. It's something different.

It's out of this world. And if we flatten that,

we might be missing out on something that the

original authors fully expected us to see. And

if we flatten it, we put the scripture in parts

and then hope that it makes sense and you can't

do that. We have to see it through the lens with

which it was given to us and read it that way.

through an ancient lens, not a modern lens. OK.

So. Let me give you some resources that you can

go read yourself. OK, so I talked about this

past Sunday, The Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael

Heiser. I'm going to just tell you, Dr. Heiser

is not an easy read because most of his books.

are are a lot of footnotes that are deep, like

half the page will literally be footnotes because

he's just pointing you to scripture over and

over and over and over and over and over and

over. He's pointing you to scripture and ancient

text over and over because he's giving you all

the evidence for this. It's not just his take.

It is the actual like this. This is what it says.

Here's here's you see it for yourself. He also

has a book called Reversing Hermon, which is

about that rebellion that I talked about. It's

a more focused look specifically on Genesis six

and its implications in the New Testament. He

wrote an easier kind of read that of the unseen

realm called Supernatural. It's just a simplified

version of the unseen realm. It's probably a

good starting point for those of you that feel

like I don't really want to get into a textbook

per se. First, Enoch. Now, Pastor Logan. Enoch

is not in the Bible. I know. I know. And I'm

not saying it's canon, but it is quoted by June,

Jude, and it is quoted by Peter and it is quoted

by Paul. Okay. Um, so there has to be something

to it. Now, the first 32 chapters, I think are

more on point. The rest of it is trash. That

was, we know is, was like added later and blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. But at least Just

familiarize yourself with it. I'm not saying

it's scripture. Don't hear me saying it's scripture.

OK. But it does get quoted by the writers of

scripture, so we should at least familiarize

ourselves with it. It also helps us how, by the

way, how ancient Jews would have interpreted

Genesis six. Now, what if we wanted to have something

that's more balanced? OK. You've given us a lot

about Dr. Michael Heiser. Yeah, because again,

he was my professor. He's just an incredible

man who loved the Lord, loved Jesus, always pointed

us to Christ. Very biblical, always pointed us

to the Bible. And I just got the chance to interact

with him personally. So I trust him in that.

But let me give you another one. The Genesis

six conspiracy by Gary Bates gives you the contrasting

perspectives that critique both views. There's

a book called Giants. The Giants' Sons of the

Gods. And it's by Douglas Van Dorn, who is a

conservative pastor in Denver. And he gives you

a really in -depth look at Nephilim, Giants,

all that jazz. And then there's a book called

Demons by Dr. Michael Heiser as well, which explores

how Genesis 6 connects to later biblical demonology,

which is what I got into this past week. All

that being said, I hope that this was helpful.

I hope that it helps give you. Makes you want

to dive a little bit deeper, but helps hopefully

helps you see, yeah, the Bible is more supernatural

than I thought. I'm not expecting this to change

your mind. I want you to be the one that physically

dives in yourself. You physically dive in yourself.

To see what it is that the scriptures are about

your. systematic interpretation of the scriptures,

your defense of where you are. But don't ever

let your own discomfort be the reason why that

you are unwilling to take the Bible at face value,

because that's just not being honest like so.

Keep asking questions, keep searching the scriptures,

because that's what a good believer does. I love

each and every single one of you. Thanks so much

for listening. If you've got any more questions,

always reach out to me, text me, message me on

Facebook, email me. You know how to get a hold

of me. Love you guys. We'll see you. Hopefully

you can join me. If you are not a part of Crested

Corners on Church, we are in O 'Neill, Nebraska,

and would love to have you come visit us any

time. Thanks so much. Have a great day. We'll

see you Sunday. Bye bye.