That you are my disciples – Part 3 – Bearing Fruit

that you are my disciples.

We were talking about how there were three or four

things that Jesus talked about that said,

where he said, you do this so that the world may know

that you are my disciples.

So we finished two, and today we go on to the third one.

Before we go there, the reason we talk about God

and deep calling out the deep is because deep is the place

of God, deep is the dwelling place of God.

Deep is the dwelling place of God.

So if you look at say, Psalm 18, verse 11,

Psalms 18:11

he made darknesses covering his canopy around him,

the dark rain clouds of the sky.

You look at Psalm 97 too, clouds and thick darkness

around him, righteousness and justice are the foundation

of his throne.

You look at 1 Timothy 6, 16, Jesus Christ,

who alone is immortal, who lives in unapproachable light,

whom no one has seen or can see,

to him be honor and might forever.

You look at 1 Kings 8, 12, then Solomon said,

the Lord has said that he would dwell in a dark cloud.

There is this idea of God dwelling in the deep,

God dwelling in the deep, as in places

that are unfathomable to us.

And so this idea of deep calling out the deep,

and if you listen to Jeremy praying, he said,

oh God, we come to know your mysteries.

And if you listen to the word that was spoken on Friday,

it is, can you plummet the depths of God

so that everything in life is just a milestone?

It's never the finish line.

God dwells in the deep.

How do you describe the deep?

Think of the ocean, think of some of the deepest parts

of the ocean.

Remember that thing that imploded?

Yeah.

It couldn't go right till the end.

Before it reached the end, it imploded

because of the pressure.

Think of the ocean this way and how deep it goes,

where there are things yet undiscovered.

That's just finite.

It's created.

Now think of this God.

And therefore to have any other finish line

other than the depths of God is absurd.

Because every other finish line would be a mirage really.

You haven't reached the end.

So God dwells in the deep.

God's intent with Adam was,

can I teach you everything about me?

And then when you think you've gotten to the end

of who I am, I'll teach you some more

because I'm infinite.

There's a difference between deep.

People talk about, oh I wish there was some deep teaching.

Deep teaching is very different from the depths of God.

So what we have substituted the depths of God

is deep teaching.

Oh I want something deep.

It's very, I heard this new preacher, he has deep.

It's a difference you find between the professor

who explains how a plane flies and the teacher

explains how a plane flies and the test pilot

who takes the plane up in the air.

That's the difference.

A prof can sit and tell you how a plane flies

but a test pilot that takes the first F-35 into the air

not knowing how that plane will operate,

that's testing the depth.

Go after the depth of God, not anything else.

I mean one of the things that I felt

when Pastor Mike was talking about all this is,

even with us, yes there are places we want to break into

but once we break into it, it'll be the shallow.

Every time you break into something

it'll still be ankle deep.

There's knee deep, waist deep,

to go to a point where you can't survive.

And that's what the word says,

that every time you think you have come to some place

you will find that there is more.

And it is true, once you know hunger, hunger will return.

So the question is, if you are not hungry,

is it because you have not known hunger?

Or is it because that hunger has been fed with things

that just fill your stomach?

So simple question to each of us here.

I remember a time, I mean I'm looking at Aaron,

and I remember a time when he and Renny would come

and visit with me in Denny's.

There used to be a place called Denny's

on Southwest Marine and there used to be a place

called White Spot on Southwest Marine.

I don't know what people have against Southwest Marine,

both those places disappeared.

But I remember meeting Aaron at Denny's,

this was six or seven years ago, and Renny would come there.

I think you drop this every week, right?

No? Okay.

So, so, it's okay Sharon, I'm just kidding.

You're welcome back next week and you can drop it again.

This is a very friendly church here.

So, yeah, so Aaron and Renny would come

and Renny would be hungry, huh?

And she would want, Aaron would sit there like,

my God, I didn't know this was part of the deal

if I got married to her.

He had zero hunger, dead as a door knob.

He would just sit there.

Right Aaron?

Yeah.

And then at some point something happened

where hunger happened.

And then this guy began to take strides.

And it's odd if that hasn't happened to you,

ask for it, eh?

And nobody can say you don't have hunger, you have hunger.

You know it.

And if you don't have it, one of the coolest things to do

is to go and ask God for an appetite.

Go and ask God for an appetite,

and say please, I do not have hunger.

I'm fine where I am, I'm settled here, it's good.

I don't wanna go further.

Ask him for an appetite.

And then you won't be able to help it

because things will change.

So,

here's a problem with the depths of God.

No one is ready.

No one is ready to take on the depth of God

if he or she

is not fed up

with status quo

or superficial.

You can't if you're not fed up with status quo

or superficial.

Nobody is ready to take on the depths of God

if he or she is not fed up with status quo

or with superficial.

And if you are ready,

then

no one can step

into those depths

without

drawing aside.

Without drawing aside.

No one can step into those depths

without drawing aside.

You cannot.

I'll have to draw aside.

Every time God wanted to show David something extra,

Moses something extra, what would he do?

Pull them aside.

For how long?

40 days sometimes.

With what?

No cell phones.

Worth no food.

Or maybe not as bad.

Right now we could survive without food

but not our cell phones.

But he would call Moses and say,

Jesus, before he steps into the greater depths of God

here on earth, call aside.

There is no stepping into those depths

without drawing aside.

So the first one is there is no

taking on the depth of God

if I'm not fed up with status quo

or with the superficial.

How do you know you are

not fed up with status quo?

How do you know you are not fed up with status quo?

How do you know you are not fed up with status quo?

How do you know you are superficial?

One of the odd ways you know you're superficial

is that you will be criticizing everything else

that is superficial.

The deeper you go, the less you criticize the superficial.

The externals, the unimportant stuff.

No one can step into those depths without drawing aside.

Here's the odd thing with the prophetic word

is that God will give you a word like the one we received.

If we don't, let's say not we, if I don't,

then God will cause circumstances to arise

that will force me to.

And then if I don't, he let me be.

But he will not give up without a fight.

When God gives a word like he did

and that word is only for his benefit,

though we will enjoy the journey,

it is for his benefit,

he's saying I want to do something with you.

17 years I brought you this far,

I want to do something with you.

And then if I don't, if you don't,

let's just take me as an example.

If I don't, then God will not give up without a fight.

He will cause circumstances

that will force me to draw aside.

After that, if I don't,

then he'll move on and find someone else.

You'll find this in the Bible again and again.

When the ones he had chosen refused to walk in his ways,

he would then find ways to isolate them

or take them into the wilderness

and appear to them in a way

that would bring out two consequences.

Either they would change or God would say,

I gotta move on and find someone else.

He almost did that with Moses too.

And so if that applies to us,

then it applies to us as a church too.

He will not give this up without a fight.

And then if it doesn't work out, he'll go on.

It's good that he doesn't give up without a fight, eh?

Isn't that how you would be with your children?

His depths, according to Romans 11.33

or Daniel 2.2, his depths are unsearchable.

So how in the world are we going to explore it?

And that's why we have 1 Corinthians 2.10,

where it says,

for God to be revealed, God must be revealed by the Spirit.

For God to be revealed,

he must be revealed by the Spirit.

Why by the Spirit?

Because according to 1 Corinthians 2.10,

the Spirit searches all things.

All things, yes, the deep things of God.

May I suggest something else that we have to shift in

over the next little while?

It'll be a hard shift for me too,

based on the word that was spoken on Friday.

One of the things we'll have to shift in is,

can we become friends of the Holy Spirit

for the next few months?

We have a focus on the Father,

we have a focus on Jesus,

but not all of us, or not all of us all the time,

may be as adapted to the Spirit of God

as we now need to be at this time.

So let's assume I was Pawan's friend,

and I want to learn how to canoe.

And so if I approach Pawan as someone I'm pastoring,

I won't learn how to canoe.

If I approach Pawan as my best buddy

and slap him on his back and stuff like that,

I won't learn how to canoe.

So I'm going to learn how to canoe.

So I'm going to learn how to canoe.

If I slap him on his back and stuff like that,

I won't learn how to canoe.

But if I approach him as one who teaches canoeing,

then I learn how to canoe.

It's the same thing when it comes to Father, Son,

and Holy Spirit.

There are times when we relate to him as Son and Father,

there are times when we relate to him as Master and Lord and

one who's subjected to the Lord.

And then there are times when we relate

to the Spirit of God.

One of the things that may have to happen here

for the next little while is,

can we become friends with the Spirit of God?

In such an odd, intense way,

that the deep things of God slowly start getting revealed

to us as a church,

because it's the job of the Spirit.

The question is, but if we worship God,

doesn't it take care of all of it?

Yes, it does.

But then there are specific roles

that the triune God plays.

There's enough scriptural evidence for it.

Any questions on that before we move on

on all these things just said?

Any questions?

How do you befriend the Holy Spirit by seeking him out

and deliberately saying to him

and then spending time with him as in,

spending time as in having conversations with him

and having conversations with Pawan about canoeing,

not about stuff like other stuff.

Yeah.

Vinom's very intentional that this is what I wanted to do.

So when you wake up, yes,

you still worship the Father and the Son

and the Holy Spirit,

but this idea of Holy Spirit,

I don't even know how to do this,

but you're the one who searches the deep things of God.

Can you begin to show me?

Because at the end of the day,

the one who reveals Christ is the Spirit.

Jesus put it this way.

I have so much more to tell you,

but I won't tell you right now,

or I can't tell you right now because you're not ready.

But don't worry.

I'm not leaving you as orphans.

I'm sending you the Father's Spirit.

He will take everything of me

and he will make it known to you

so that you may know the truth.

That everything I have, he will make known to you.

There's almost this deliberate diversion of attention

that Father, that the Spirit of God,

that Jesus is doing where he's saying,

I need you to now divert and listen to

the third person of the Godhead

that hasn't come to the earth yet,

but he is coming and he will lead you into all truth.

Revealed by the Spirit.

Sorry, I'll try and write better.

Any questions, guys?

Okay.

If we go after spiritual experiences,

and I do desire spiritual experiences like crazy,

spiritual experiences manifest

but don't convey.

Manifest,

but don't convey

spiritual truths.

Spiritual experiences, let's say,

suddenly something hits Emily

and her neck just instantly becomes fine.

Or suddenly while we are worshiping,

people begin to feel the tangible presence of God.

Spiritual experiences are great.

They do give evidence of the presence of God manifest,

but they don't convey spiritual truths.

Spiritual truths, according to 1 Corinthians 2,

are only conveyed through it being taught

and interpreted by the Holy Spirit into your lives,

imparted by someone.

It's the only way to learn spiritual truths.

The Bible says so.

And what we are after at the end of the day

is spiritual truth.

Sorry, go ahead, Nana.

Yeah.

Spiritual experiences may manifest the truth,

as in the truth is Christ heals.

When suddenly Emily's neck instantly is free from pain,

that is the truth being manifested.

But a spiritual experience does not convey the truth.

The truth is conveyed through teaching.

Take Isaiah 53, take 2 Peter 2, 23,

take Psalm 103, verse 5,

Psalms 103:5

take Malachi 2, verse 1 and 2,

Malachi 2:1

take Matthew, don't remember.

And so now you take those verses

and now the truth is conveyed.

And so one of the things we have to get a grip of

in these days that lie ahead is that spiritual truths

are only conveyed when it is imparted.

In words that are taught,

not by human wisdom,

but taught by the spirit,

interpreting spiritual truths.

And it can only be understood by those who are spiritual.

So it has to be imparted as in,

it has to be, to impart something

is to take something and give.

It has to be imparted.

And if something is given, it should be received.

Sometimes the package through which truth comes

may not be a package to my liking.

Often I've sat in places where I look at the person

imparting truth and I think to myself, oh my God.

But unfortunately God will sometimes humble me

by bringing truth through a package that I do not like.

So it's imparted.

It's imparted in words.

It has to be taught.

Are you saying that we only receive teaching

through by the spirit but through another person?

Yes, because in Ephesians 4, verse 11 onwards,

Ephesians 4:11

it says that God has given to the church,

apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, and pastors

for what?

For the equipping of saints for the work of ministry.

Does that mean that the spirit cannot teach you a truth?

No, because even the teachers must be learning it

from somewhere to be able to impart it to you.

But is it one of the essential ways

in the context of the body that it happens?

Yes.

What are the four main pillars of a church?

Apostolic, doctrine.

What is that?

A common set of teachings.

The anointing in us will teach us,

as in the spirit of God in us will show us the truth,

will show us revelations from the word.

But at the end of the day, if that was enough,

then Ephesians 4, 11 to 17 never needed to be written

because we don't need anybody else

but the anointing of the spirit.

And it doesn't work that way.

It'll never work that way.

I'll always have to be dependent on someone else

to get to a place where I need to.

And yet, it is not exclusive to the point

you can't learn by yourself

because the spirit of God won't show you.

No, he will show you.

But without verification, without being taught,

not possible.

That is why we need to distinguish

between true teachers and false teachers.

Why are there falsehoods in the world today,

in churches today?

Because there are also false teachers.

Which then means that a teaching from the Bible

can be taken and distorted to a point

where it becomes false.

And therefore, it has to be imparted in words

that were taught not by human wisdom

but taught by the spirit.

And it has to be interpreted by the spirit to us.

And the more we learn,

the more we can hold a plumb line against the truth.

That's the other thing.

That's the other thing.

The more you learn,

the more you can hold a plumb line against the truth.

The less I'm receptive to learning,

the less chance there is of my ability

to discern between true and false.

When you do that first one, 237.

Which is what I kind of quoted.

As for you, the anointing you received

from the remains of you.

Yeah.

You don't have anyone to teach you.

Yeah.

The anointing teaches you about all things.

Yeah.

And it is real, not counterfeit.

Yeah.

Just as it has taught you to make it.

Yeah, so that's exactly what I quoted.

Saying the anointing in you teaches you.

And then there are teachers who bring it in.

Because what if you are not receptive to the anointing?

What if the anointing in you

is something you're not responding to?

What if, look at this, Paul was anointed, right?

What did he do when he heard truths

about God in the desert?

What did he do?

He sent immediately to the apostles in Jerusalem.

Why?

Because he wanted to verify what he had been taught.

So it's not one or the other, it is both.

But he cannot do without being taught

or without words of teaching being imparted.

Can your child learn the letters of the alphabet

by himself or herself?

Yeah.

If you help a little.

But can he spell big words like Sheldon Lou?

No.

So let me touch on the last one.

By those who are spiritual.

So the question is, are you spiritual?

And your immediate response will be,

how do you know if you're spiritual?

Sede would ask that.

So before Sede asks that.

Are you spiritual?

That's the question.

Because if you are not spiritual,

do not expect to understand spiritual truths

by the Holy Spirit.

It's crazy.

These are such difficult things for us

as independent Christians sometimes to accept

that I have to be spiritual

to understand spiritual truths from the Holy Spirit.

Nobody wants this.

We don't realize how highly individualized we are.

Where everything has to be my decision, my choice,

my choosing, my selection.

And it is a falsehood.

Spiritual truths are understood by spiritual people.

So the question is, are you spiritual?

And the second question is, if you say you're spiritual,

who are you spiritual with?

Exactly.

If I say I'm spiritual, your next question should be,

Jacob, who are you spiritual with?

As in, who are you interacting with

where they are able to experience the fruit

and the gifts of the Spirit active in you

because Christ lives in you?

Who are you spiritual with?

Spirituality can never be weighed in isolation.

Spirituality, every fruit of the Spirit

only happens in the context of others.

Not in isolation.

So how do you define spiritual?

You would define spiritual as the ways of Christ

being first developed in you and then expressed through you

in the context of a people to whom it becomes evident

that the Son is both being formed in you

and being displayed through you.

Want me to repeat that?

To be spiritual is to, on one hand,

shoot, I forgot the whole line.

Yeah, to be spiritual is to have the ways of Christ

increasingly develop in you so that the Son

is both formed in you and expresses himself through you

in the context of a people so that they can see

the evidence of Christ in you.

That is when you're spiritual.

And you cannot do this on your own.

If I develop myself spiritually on my own,

it is not spiritual.

To be spiritual is to be spiritual with someone.

That's the measure of it.

Any questions?

It's only in the context of others,

only in the context of others, that you can be fruitful.

Trees never bear fruit for themselves.

Trees bear fruit so that they may either

have the fruit plucked by people or trees bear fruit

so that the fruit may lead to more seeds

that will produce more trees.

It is never for oneself.

So to be spiritual again, another way of,

spiritual growth is directly proportional to fruitfulness.

Spiritual growth is directly proportional to fruitfulness.

Spiritual growth is directly proportional to fruitfulness.

Virtual growth is directly proportional to fruitfulness

and it benefits both the wine

both the wine as in Christ and the branches on the tree as in the rest of the people.

So that's one way you can evaluate spiritual, what the word spiritual means.

And if you are doing well in this then expect to know spiritual truths that the Spirit of God will show you in the season ahead.

Let's just take one verse and go as far as we can for another 20 minutes and then we'll stop.

John 15 verse 7 and 8, let's just take those two verses and look at them.

John 15:7

John 15 verse 7 and 8, here's what it says.

John 15:7

John 15 verse 7 and 8, if you abide in me.

John 15:7

Sometimes it's good for the house churches that you attend, for the leaders to have a one-on-one with you,

to not tell you whether you're spiritual or not but to have a conversation with you on how you are doing with being spiritual.

To sit with Jill, if I were a house church leader and ask her,

so Jill, tell me, how do you think you are doing with being spiritual?

And if she says well, then I'll say why do you say so?

And the same way for Derek or me to come and sit with me and say, are you being spiritual Jacob?

And if I say, we are really, really spiritual, the next question is, so why do you say so?

One-on-othering in a church includes this.

One-on-othering is spurring each other to good works, stirring each other up, admonishing each other.

And at this stage in our lives, that surgical scalpel must be used so that circumcision is complete.

And it is painful.

We'll walk like John Wayne for a while, but then it'll be okay.

So, sorry.

I was just going about being spiritual in the context of others.

Would you consider non-believers as well?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think, yeah, because most of our engagement is with ones who are not believers, right?

So, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it's an important point.

It's very easy to think that being spiritual is what we do for two hours here or attending a house church.

You can attend a house church and spend three hours here and you'd be completely not spiritual when you live 24-7 out there in the world.

But remember, the stones are cut in the quarry.

This is the quarry and this is where one should see if a stone is cut properly.

Otherwise, the stone cannot be used for building because you don't know what kind of stone you're using out there.

The church is a pillar and the foundation of truth.

Here is where the measurement takes place.

And to refuse to be measured is to disqualify yourself.

Can I tell you something?

I'm not rich to teach and preach like this, guys.

You should try it.

It's not easy.

Yeah, yeah, it is not easy.

It is not easy.

It is not easy.

I'm not saying it for applause, but I want you to know this is difficult.

But I cannot but do this because I will be held responsible for your life.

Because sometimes when I teach like this, I think to myself, my God, man, move on.

Go to something happy and it will be so much easier.

John 15, 7 to 8.

If you abide in me, another word for abide in thee and I will remain.

If you abide in me and my words abide in you and my words abide or remain in you, depending on the version.

Ask whatever you want.

And it will be done for you.

Crazy, eh?

This is to my Father's glory.

This is to my Father's glory.

That you bear much fruit.

That you bear much fruit.

Showing yourself to be my disciples.

Crazy, man. What a scripture.

If you abide in me or remain in me and my words abide or remain in you, ask whatever you want.

These are places that God wants to take us.

He wants actually to do this with any group of believers.

But He's definitely saying to us, these are places I want to take you.

No, one or two of us. He's so not interested in one or two or some super person or some great guy.

No, He prefers a group. He's always wanted a nation.

If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you want and it will be done for you.

This is to my Father's glory.

That you bear much fruit.

And if you bear much fruit, know this, that you will show yourself as my disciples.

Just want to look at this verse and then we'll end.

Another word for abiding, guys, is believing trust.

Believing trust or attachment.

You are willing to attach yourself to someone because you absolutely believe what they've said and you trust them.

And you're absolutely attached.

It is relational.

It is intimate.

I dislike using this word and so I'll explain it.

It's organic.

I have a high suspicion of anything that's organic.

It is totally dependent.

Because the moment you say organic, it depends on who the person is.

When I think of the word organic, I think tasteless.

But that's why I struggle with the word.

But it's a good word.

So when I say organic, what I mean is it is homegrown.

It is not foreign. It's not mixed.

It's something that is very true about it.

And it's tasty.

So when God says, hey, abide in my presence, I want you to remain in my presence.

So I want you to make yourself home in my presence.

All these are words that different versions use.

Come remain in my presence.

Come dwell in my presence.

Come abide in my presence.

Come make yourself home in my presence.

All these are words that he uses.

And he says, what I mean by that is can you attach yourself because you just believe me blind.

You believe me blind.

It doesn't matter what I say.

You just believe me blind because you trust me absolutely.

But why do you trust me absolutely?

Because over a period of time, you have learned to be relational.

You have learned to be intimate.

You have learned to be real with me, true, without mixture.

And you have learned to be totally helplessly abandoned in dependence.

That is the desire God has for all of us.

That is the desire he had for man.

That is definitely the desire he has for us.

Every day I attempt at least two minutes of this.

Two minutes of this.

Two minutes of this.

Four minutes, an hour.

Possible man. It is possible.

When you abide like this, a strange thing begins to happen.

Abiding causes things to flow from God to you.

It permeates.

And then it is up to you whether you receive it or not.

But it will flow.

Abiding causes things to flow from.

This is why Jesus takes a vine and the branches and says,

Hey, apart from me, a branch will be dead wood and it will be tossed into the fire.

But stay attached to me and things will flow.

What are the three things he says will flow?

When you read John 15, 6-12, the three things he says will flow.

And this is why, guys, this is why it is so important for the devil to cause us not to abide.

He will cause us to pray.

He will cause us to have quiet time.

He will allow us to spend two hours together like this.

But the one thing he vehemently, violently opposes is actual abiding.

Because when one abides, things from God begin to flow into you.

And that cannot be allowed.

It's effortless. The flowing becomes effortless.

It cannot be allowed.

The flesh dissolves when abiding begins.

As in this flesh no longer prevents God from having all of you.

I found out by mistake that if you leave a garbage bag full of stuff on the floor long enough, it flows.

I put two garbage bags, but it flowed.

It doesn't matter whether it's good stuff or bad stuff.

These are the things we desperately need at a time such as this.

All of us.

Abiding must come first.

Or if it doesn't come first, pray that it comes first.

It is impossible to abide in the presence of God without obeying the word.

One of the first requirements for abiding is obedience to the word.

So because there is a tendency today in the charismatic world to soak in the presence,

one of the things that we forget is there is no abiding or dwelling if there is no obedience.

What do you mean no obedience? I am obedient.

See the areas of struggle, resistance, delay, stubbornness, unwillingness.

And you will and I will know where I need to be.

That begins the process. I'm just talking about recognizing it.

There is no abiding, no dwelling if there is no obedience.

That's the first area.

Look at the areas of my life where I struggle with obedience,

where there is a resistance to obedience, where there is a delay in obedience,

where there is stubbornness to obedience, where there is an unwillingness to obey.

And in looking at that I will know.

So many areas that still need to change.

And that's just a recognition.

Sometimes all God needs is a recognition.

Okay, sorry, go ahead.

I was just going to say, so how do you go into naval gazing?

Yeah, how do you not go into naval gazing?

Naval gazing is only a problem when guilt and condemnation kick in.

If I can do this without...

Naval gazing is basically looking at your belly button.

But what Dylan and I mean by that is that when we begin to focus on the,

oh, woe is me, I am sinful, I am this, I am that, then it becomes a problem.

So naval gazing is okay as long as you sidestep the minefield of guilt and condemnation.

Because there are two extremes in Christianity.

One that says naval gazing is wrong because we have been positionally made righteous.

So we don't need to naval gaze at all.

And then there's the other side which says naval gazing is absolutely required

because otherwise you will live immoral lives.

So you're a sinful man.

At the end of the day, it's not one or the other.

It is knowing that, yeah, I've got problems in this area,

but I will refuse to come under guilt and condemnation

because I operate from the position of a man who is forgiven and restored,

who is struggling with areas in my life.

It's a hard thing to fit in one equation.

Isn't it also allowing the Holy Spirit to direct which part he wants to deal with?

Because he doesn't always deal with everything at the same time.

Or sometimes we think, well, why don't you deal with this?

This is a big issue and I think this is most important,

but he's like, no, this thing over here.

Agreed.

Here's the catch though.

What if the Holy Spirit uses me to point out something in you?

That's where the struggle comes in.

As long as the Holy Spirit is dealing directly with me to show me my sin,

Jim, I can handle it.

The Holy Spirit and me are good.

But when you come and you put your finger on something,

now it begins to create a problem.

If I'm open to both, the Spirit of God showing me stuff

and you showing me stuff, I'm a rich man.

This is why hostage leaders over the next little while

should sit and use a scalpel.

It is fault-finding so that you may be corrected.

Does a parent find fault with their children?

Nope.

It is raising up children.

If I don't find things that are wrong with you,

you will not be able to walk the way you're supposed to.

If you don't find fault with me or the ones that look into my life

and point out things, I will not change.

Remember, blind spots, we are specialized in.

Blind spots are things that you don't know you're doing.

Someone told me recently that whenever I start thinking,

I start rubbing my head here,

and I believe there's a groove in the back of my head now.

So here's another...

Okay.

So your house church leader who sees you once every two weeks

is not going to have a clue about...

Aha!

What about the Holy Spirit now?

So he can speak to them but not to me?

He can speak to them and not to you.

Yes.

And then there are times when he'll speak to you and not to them.

The trick is to be open to both.

But he's going to...

If I have an area of sin in my life,

because you believe you would be dealing with it...

And what if you don't hear and you're oblivious to it?

You think it hasn't happened in my life?

Where there was sin in my life and I didn't see it?

It's happened to everybody here, including you.

There is not a single person here who was sinning,

knew they were sinning, and yet did not do anything about it

until someone, not once or twice or three times,

pointed it out multiple times.

I guess what I was struggling with is...

It just feels like control.

It is one way to see it, that this is controlling.

The other way to see it is,

aha, there is someone who's interested in me who's correcting me.

But there's... Yeah, I guess there's...

Yeah, we can take it offline.

But guys, this is the pressure or demand that will be placed on us

if we're operating in the context we're operating in.

A fine line, but it will be held.

Sometimes, yeah, if it's done with a heart of love,

because sometimes even the way you receive it

may not be the way you should receive it.

You think children think that parents don't have a good book and a bad book?

One of the things I get told often is,

oh, you have a good book and a bad book.

You think when your child...

I was asking a parent just yesterday,

when your child doesn't do well,

do they feel particularly in your good books?

No, they don't feel in your good books.

What do you feel about them?

That they are your son and daughter, you would do anything for them.

We are building a house,

not a church, not an institution.

People have to be raised.

So it also talks about speaking truth and love.

And if you have...

Like, you can have love without truth and that's not love.

You can have truth without love,

but that's not truth.

Oh, no.

The reason I'm stopping and parking here is because this is important.

I can easily say, Jill, we can talk about this later.

But I refuse to, because this is important.

This is where we are going.

We've got to be clear about this, eh?

We don't want to grow without knowing that these are the lines that are established.

My leaders misperceive you in their own biases.

Yeah, then if leaders misperceive you in your biases,

come and talk to the main leader.

Who's the main leader?

Yeah.

Come and talk to the main leader.

Tell him that I'm being perceived with a bias.

And if you don't trust the main leader,

then my simple question is, find someone else.

And if you don't trust anybody, then the simple question is,

what are you doing here?

And sometimes it's difficult.

Sometimes for you to, if I'm misjudging you,

it's very difficult for you to come and say,

you're misjudging me and have that conversation.

Because it's not easy.

Find someone like a derrick who seems relatively, at least appears relatively harmless.

Pardon?

Find another leader and come bring, if I can't be approached,

find another leader.

Eventually the word will get to me.

And I'll try to do it as well as possible.

And there will be times where it will be impossible for you to reconcile,

in which case, find a place where you will grow well.

Yeah. So if you're misjudged, that would be the way to go about it.

You can come and say, I'm being misjudged by Derrick.

No, no, not right now.

No, there's a limit to what we can do on video.

Yeah.

Not right now.

But you can come and tell me I'm being misjudged here.

And then we can talk about it.

There's only so much we can do in camera.

The odd thing is these conversations

will be watched by people in India, in Bahrain, in Sydney, in places like that.

And the great thing is your faces are turned away from it.

My face is the one facing that.

And better still, most people will think all these questions are coming from Diana anyways.

Because she's the only one who asks questions.

Oh, I did? Okay.

And yet the reason I want to answer these questions is,

I think it's important, particularly given where we are heading.

I don't want this to be under wraps.

Go ahead, Prashanth.

Thanks, Wen.

I can't hear you.

Same with, go to Chad.

Go to Mike Scandleberry.

Talk to them.

Or go to Derek. Go to me.

Why even go outside? Go inside.

Talk to Derek and talk to me.

And in your case, if you have something, you can come directly to me.

Yeah. If it was someone who was afraid of me,

and you are not one of those,

you can come directly to me.

But if you think you can't come directly to me,

then the two that you should go to first, if you can,

and if they're trustable, and these are two guys who look trustable,

it's Derek and me.

After that, if they have to bring it first,

and if it still doesn't work, and this problem is still outstanding,

then you need to take it to Mike Scandleberry for one,

Chad the other.

Eddie is too far away right now to take it, but these two are near.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, that wasn't a tough question.

Sorry, I have someone.

Are you guys married?

Go ahead, Eddie.

I come from a...

Same.

So if May is a leader, and she's beating people up,

then you then can either talk to her and say,

don't beat me up, or you can bring it to me and say,

May is beating me up, can you do something about it?

And then if I sweep it under the rug and don't do anything with it,

then you may need to go to Derek and say,

I spoke to Jacob about May beating people up,

but Jacob hasn't done something.

Actually, if you could do that, I would say call the police.

May is saying call the police first, but...

But, okay, let's take out the beating button.

Something like that, so you would take it to Derek.

What are we doing here? We're following Matthew 18.

And so now you've taken it to Derek, and now Derek talks to, say,

Jane and they both come and talk to me about it again.

How long will I sweep this under the carpet?

At some point, you'll have to go to the two that I spoke to saying,

we've tried this, and it keeps sweeping under the carpet.

The only other option you have is to say, we are done with this,

this is not healthy for us, let's run.

Because this is not a safe or healthy place.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So we have a board, and if you want to know who all to approach,

it would be Derek, May, who else?

Heidi, Tooney, Jillian, and then you.

Who else? Jane.

Other people you can approach, Sue.

And there was one more.

Dawn. These are guys who lead.

You can talk to them, tell them, whatever you need to.

Be it finances, be it morality, be it spiritual issues, you take it to them.

So are there any differences?

I've tried to avoid elders.

Why?

Because churches have pigeonholed elders that's doing certain things,

and they're trying to avoid the elders.

So I've tried to avoid elders.

Why?

Because churches have pigeonholed elders that's doing certain things.

Churches have pigeonholed elders that's doing certain things only,

while I would say here are the qualifications.

I've removed the term elders.

I don't use the term elders, but here are the things that are required of a leader.

One, can they teach?

Two, are they living pure lives?

Three, do they have a zeal for God?

Four, do they convey the teaching faithfully?

Five, do they run their homes well?

These are the five requirements that are mentioned for any leader in the Bible,

including elders.

And if these five are met, then they qualify.

Do you know that they qualify for elders?

Because I meet with them personally and check their lives on a regular basis

almost every week.

Every week.

These five or six I mentioned, or eight or seven or eight I mentioned,

I check their lives every week.

I actually check.

Strangely enough, they come and ask to be checked.

Go ahead, Vivi.

By sitting with them and saying, how are you doing in this?

What about your finances?

Do you have a problem with pornography?

Are you watching anything you should not be watching?

What happened to that issue?

You did not reconcile with this person.

Have you reconciled?

Your heart has this condition with this person.

You told me about it.

Has it changed?

Have you forgiven that person?

You had a problem in this area.

What is the record?

It is that nasty.

I know.

So there's no guarantee that whatever is being said to you,

whatever you're trying to find out from them is absolutely 100% true.

Actually is.

These guys are.

You can't assume that.

No, no.

When you begin to live with people, you begin to see them on a 24-7 basis almost.

You begin to see whether Derek's life is real or not.

I'm not taking any...

No, no.

I'm taking specifically.

I'm taking Jillian.

I'm taking...

It's just a general question.

Yeah.

The amazing thing about living with people is you begin to see how they really...

You're not even seeing them from a distance.

I observed Derek and Iris...

Derek's life separate and Derek's life now with Iris and the baby.

How he is as a husband.

How he is as a father.

I see how Dawn loves Kezia.

I check Jillian's life.

I check Jane and Sheldon's life.

I look at Sue's life and see how they're actually living when they're away from church.

And don't think for a second that their lives are going well.

Derek's makes mistakes.

Jillian makes mistakes.

Sue makes mistakes.

Dawn makes multiple mistakes.

Toonie.

Oh my God.

Toonie should have left the church by now.

The only one who enjoys him being corrected is his wife.

She sits there and laughs while he's being corrected.

Pardon?

I'm leaving soon.

What?

I'm leaving soon.

Oh, you're leaving soon.

Yeah.

I'm leaving after the meeting.

I'm leaving.

I'm leaving.

I'm leaving.

I'm leaving.

I'm leaving.

I'm leaving.

And then to take it further with the point Mark is saying, how can you be 100% sure?

So that's through observable data.

And then there is the Holy Spirit who gives the one who leads the church, doesn't matter who it is,

and in this case me, who gives the one who leads the church the grace to build the church

and to know something that is happening before it happens.

We can't undermine that.

That is so prevalent.

Yeah.

It's the same grace he gives parents.

Yeah.

How did my mother have eyes in the back of her head?

When I grew up, it was missing.

There is a grace that God gives the builder of a church to know what is happening before it even happens.

Go ahead, Emmanuel.

So, oh, you said the five of the boy is right.

Yeah.

So what happens if the specific leader falls short?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if the specific leader falls short, and every leader, including me, will fall short in some area or the other,

is the leader doing anything to get better?

If the leader, after one and a half years, let's give the leader 18 months to change,

because anyone would give you and me 18 months to change, so let's give a leader 18.

So, after 18 months, Derek is still not changing.

Now there's a problem.

And 18 months is a long time.

You really cannot afford a leader 18 months.

I would suggest three or four months.

But in three or four months, if there is no change.

Plus, there's another thing that we have to look at when we operate biblically.

So, in the book, I assume, Vivian finds out that, who shall we pick on?

May again.

So Vivian finds out that May is not doing something well.

And Vivian tells me about it.

Anything brought against a leader should be confirmed by one or two witnesses, by two or more witnesses.

It doesn't mean that two people have to say the same thing about May.

Even if it happens two or three times, even that is two or three witnesses.

So just because someone brings a complaint about a leader, does not mean you entertain it.

According to the scriptures, if two or three witnesses bring a complaint against a leader

in an area that is morally faulty or embezzling or any sin that is contagious, that's another thing.

Always remember, we have to deal with sin that is contagious.

It will begin to spread.

So what are some of the sins that are contagious?

Sexual sin, immorality, strife, discord, unforgiveness, gossip, slander, accusations.

These are contagious sins.

If these sins are prevalent, very little room should be given.

Pardon?

Yeah, tons of non-contagious sins that will not affect you.

I might lie, it might not affect you.

But even my lying becomes something that is now spreading like gangrene in the body.

Yeah.

So there are sins that are not contagious.

Let's say May is not being smart with her money.

But she's giving generously to the church, but you don't like the way she spends her money.

That isn't a contagious sin.

It may still not be what May is supposed to do, but it doesn't affect you in terms of her eating at Earls

instead of eating at Mui Gardens.

That shouldn't be a problem.

Mui Garden is really good, eh?

Really good. I was so surprised.

And lots of food.

Yeah. That's just on the side.

Any other questions?

So we will title this, teaching something completely different.

It will be called deep, deep, deep, deep questions or something like that.

It's definitely not.

John 15, verse 7 and 8.

John 15:7

Go ahead, Vivian.

I'm not attacking you.

Go for it. Yeah.

Do leaders have the obligation to talk about their own personal struggles of the shape that they're in?

Good question.

Yeah, good question.

Do leaders have the, are they obliged to or should they talk about Simon's problems?

Let's say Simon has a problem.

And I know you have just come new, but I just thought I'll take a shot at you too.

So let's say Simon has a problem.

And he tells me the problem.

Am I supposed to then go tell Sheldon and Jane and May and Jillian and Tooney and Sue and do I tell everybody about it?

Or am I only supposed to deal with it one on one?

I wish there was some kind of a blanket statement I could make that this is how it is, but it doesn't work like that.

So let's say you relate to May and you tell May something.

May may think that it is important for me as the one in charge of the church to know.

In which case, May is not telling me so that it's gossip.

It's so that May and I can do something.

Or I can tell May that this is perhaps how you need to deal with Vivian.

Now why is she coming and telling me?

Because in certain areas, I know more than May.

How do I know more than May?

One, because of the grace that is on my life because I lead the church.

Two, because maybe I'm able to hear the Spirit better.

Three, maybe because of some experience.

And yet all three could be moot if God does not want to talk to me.

But let's assume it's not to do with me.

It's got to do with work.

So May tells Jill, hey Jill, this is the area that Vivian is looking for.

And Jill happens to be a leader.

So May tells Jill, and Jill helps you.

It must only be to help.

If it is for the sake of, hey, you know what happened in Vivian's life.

Then two things Vivian.

One, God is highly possessive of us.

And when your dignity, which should be cherished by leaders as it is cherished by God, is compromised.

Two things happen.

One, he's jealous.

Two, he does not deal with May well then.

We don't realize it.

One of the things that we don't realize in our lives is we don't see consequences when they happen.

If our eyes were open to the consequences that happen, we would be far more careful in walking.

In the New Testament, they somehow knew that if you bring strife and discord into a church,

that you will fall asleep or die.

They knew.

We don't have those things.

We don't have fears like that.

We don't have fears that if you bring strife and discord into this church,

that you could die or you could fall sick.

Because we are free from cause and effect and don't think of consequences.

And so if Sen is causing strife and discord,

you think I'm going to let her continue with it?

Here's what a true pastor or father would do.

He would not stop Sen because he wants to stop the strife and discord.

He would stop Sen so that Sen does not suffer.

And then he would look after the strife and discord.

Having said all this, remember James 3, verse 1 and 2.

James 3:1

Jacob, if you're teaching this stuff, you will be judged by a standard that's twice as hard as Dillner or Mayer or Pawan or Lenny.

One of the things I try to do is see cause and effect so that I'll stop in my path.

Oh, sorry, I'm scratching that thing again.

Alrighty.

Thanks for being a very strange church.

Let's pray.

Father, that didn't go anywhere where I wanted it to go.

It went everywhere else.

When I thank you that you have been with me,

and everywhere else, when I thank you that as we finish,

there's only, and I think I speak for the entire church, Father, not just for me.

There's only a sense of peace and almost satisfaction

and even a tinge of laughter at how this meeting went.

Thank you for each one who asked questions, Father.

For Jill who started it off.

For Vivian, for Pashant, for Marcus, for Dillner.

Thank you for the questions that were asked, Father.

So we go as people that are grateful for a God who will always be true and always be loving,

who will never fail.

Build this place up for the way you want it to, Father.

Like Jill said, help us to walk that fine line between raising and connecting.

Like Jill said, help us to walk that fine line between raising and controlling.

It's a thin line, Aba.

The way we not be afraid of abuse and compromise the truth.

Walk that line.

Teach us, Spirit of God, we come to you.

We said we want to learn from you.

Show these depths, O God, so that we may build a house.

Help me, Aba, so much in one sense depends on my hard attitude.

Yeah, people can go to Pastor Mike and people can go to Chad.

But Paul put it this way.

But even though it's a fearful thing, I'd rather fall into the hands of the living God.

So hold me accountable, too.

Thank you, Father.

We go now.

And we'll try John 15, 7 and 8 next week.

In Jesus' name, Amen.

Bless you guys.