Is Gentle Parenting Biblical?

speaker-0: Faith Baptist This Week in the Word.

speaker-1: This church and tailor's present Welcome back to This Week in the Word at Faith Baptist in Taylor, South Carolina. I'm pleased again to be joined by Pastor Mark Herbster here, who's our family pastor here at Faith. So thanks, Mark, for joining us again.

speaker-0: Pastor, it's always great to be with you and looking forward to our discussion today.

speaker-1: Yeah, every time we come together we we try to speak to things that are relevant to our conversations here at our church. And of late we've been going through the life of David as a congregation. Actually this Sunday we finally finished it up. That was forty eight long messages.

speaker-0: Yeah, I couldn't believe it when you said that on Sunday. That that's a lot of sermons from the life of David and probably could have been more. Amazing series by

speaker-1: It could have been potentially. I I just to give some of the stats I gave to our church Sunday, sixty chapters in the Bible are devoted primarily to his life. His name appears over a thousand times. It's more frequently mentioned than any other person other than Jesus. Just tons of material in the life of David. And that just his narrative. That doesn't even refer to all the psalms that he wrote, which we touched on but we didn't cover. But it's interesting, and this is where we get to our conversation today. Is not an exhaustive history. It's a true history. It's not exhaustive history of everybody that lived. It's a redemptively selective history. So throughout the life of David, there are elements in his story that, to be honest with you, until I was preaching through it, I hadn't really thought about, although I guess I'd I'd read them. And there's one such one that's relevant to you as a family pastor that we came across in First Kings chapter one. And to back up before I read the verse. For our listeners, you have to understand what's going on in First Kings one. First Kings one, David is old, he's dying, he's on his deathbed. There's a guy named Adonijah, son of, who wants to usurp the throne. And that's first Kings chapter one. The usurper comes. It's not the first usurper.

speaker-0: Yeah, there were quite a few that tried to do that to David, including Absalom and

speaker-1: Yeah, right. And ⁓ chapter two, day Solomon will get anointed. But right now, Adonijah wants the throne. And in the passage, there's this almost aside. It's an interesting comment from Scripture. But again, the Bible's a redemptively selective history. Every word is inspired. And in this aside, here's what the Bible says. I'm reading from the ESV. It says in verse six of chapter one his father, speaking of Adonijah, Adonijah's father. Had never at any time displeased him by asking Why have you done thus and so? A more paraphrase translation says, Now his father, King David, had never disciplined him at any time, even by asking Why are you doing that?

speaker-0: Yeah, how'd you like to be left in scripture with that, you know, negative on your parental influence? That I mean that shocking. Never disciplined or never asked questions, why are you doing

speaker-1: Forever forever in history. He was a happy child because he well, happy 'cause Dad never told him no. It's a it's just here's this story about the usurper Adnijah, and here's this aside.

speaker-0: Right. And what's interesting, course, ⁓ throughout the life of David as well, even David himself had his ups and downs in his parenting. ⁓ and and the Lord said, The sword'll never depart from your house. Right. ⁓ and he he had all kinds of children that were rebels as well. He had Solomon, of course, that followed in his ways, and then he he went astray as well. So ⁓ it's interesting that y we see these snapshots of families. Even in the story of David.

speaker-1: A man after God's own heart, whose parenting model here i it is it's it's a neutral model. But neutrality as a parent doesn't produce neutrality, it produces rebellion. And that's what Adonijah's story is telling us. Like look at the trajectory of this man. He grows into a man who now governs himself and eventually attempts to govern the kingdom by usurping the throne.

speaker-0: Yeah, and that conversation immediately sent me to the other illustration of the Old Testament that's very clear in the scripture, which is Eli and his two sons, Hophni and Phineas. Yes. In first Samuel chapter three, verse thirteen, says, For I have told him that I will judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knows that's in his house. Because his sons made themselves vile, and this is the key. And he did not restrain them. He restrained them not. Yeah. ⁓ it's interesting that these are like ancient ⁓ principles that we see or or ⁓ illustrations of like really permissive parenting. Yep. And how appropriate those illustrations are to like the whole discussion that is going on in our world today about how to raise up children, how to parent children, and really the two you know, the two areas that are really key to think about is, you know, some people w don't want to be too authoritative, so they become excessively permissive. Yep. It reminds me of the the the a quote that I've heard many, many times about holiness, which applies to this as well, and that is that holiness is a narrow pathway with deep ditches on either side. And I believe that biblical parenting is is a similar c we could say that similar about biblical parenting. It And and the two deep ditches can be seen in scriptural examples. There were also harsh parents, there were ⁓ dictatorial, authoritative parents. But we see these two examples, which would be the other side of of the coin, which is the excessive permissiveness with a lack of discipline. And in Adonijah's case, it literally says he didn't he didn't discipline. And in and Eli as well, he did not restrain his children.

speaker-1: What one of the things I actually didn't bring up necessarily particularly in our sermon for Adnijah, but it's certainly something that came up in conversation afterwards, and that is David's home was destroyed from what is now one of the most fast growing parenting philosophies in our generation. Yeah. Which I'm sure you've heard, maybe our listeners have, called gentle gentle parenting. Yeah. Very popular model. ⁓ even particularly within Christian worldview, so to speak, broadly speaking, gentle parenting, very popular now.

speaker-0: Not only is it popular in the Christian community, it's actually very popular in the secular world as well. I was doing a little research on this as we were planning to talk about this, and even on the Cleveland Clinic website, this I mean a medical website, they have the an entire article, entire definition of what they believe is best for parenting, gentle parenting is their approach. And they said this, and I'm quoting from their their own website, What is Gentle Parenting is the article on the Cleveland Clinic website. They said the goal of gentle parenting is to raise confident, independent and happy children through empathy, respect, and understanding and setting healthy boundaries. And this parenting style will focus largely on age appropriate development. And there's a lengthy article there where they give examples and and this is interesting for one example of of how a parent would deal with a child that is throwing a temper tantrum right before they have an appointment they're supposed to get to. This is on their this is again from the same article. They said, for example, let's say you're you're getting ready to head out the door for work and you have to drop your child off at school and they're throwing a temper tantrum. A gentle approach, this is their recommendation. Would be to get down on their level, I level, say calmly, I'm going to drop you off at school and then I'm going to go to work. We need to leave on time. I expected you to be ready with your shoes on at the door when I'm ready to leave. And if you're not ready, then we'll both be late and and I will probably feel angry. If I get angry, then you may need to lose some privileges. So this is like the their recommendation of the type of approach. Another s statement they said would be quote this when you when you don't get ready on time, son, it hurts my feelings and it makes me anxious. Why are you having such a hard time? This is the the how they say you're supposed to approach your children. And this is the the secular model that that has kind of infiltrated the Christian community. Right. And and I want to be very clear, Pastor, that There's there are some benefits to thinking about the idea of gentleness. Well okay.

speaker-1: Yeah, like if if by gentle parenting someone means you ought not scream at your child. Right. Amen to that, right? Exactly. If by gentle parenting someone means parents should reflect the patience of Christ. Well, amen to that. The fruit of the spirit includes gentleness and patience. Right. But there's a philosophy wearing a the same label that goes further than that. And that's what we're referring to.

speaker-0: And it's like I said earlier, it's ⁓ n biblical parenting is a narrow pathway. The deep ditches would be authoritarian, mm-hmm, ⁓ harsh, ⁓ authority in the home. That would be the deep ditch on one side of the the deep ditch on the other side is is is this whole approach of like connecting before correcting and empathy before authority and in permissive parenting. And we've all seen examples of this, and it's the struggle is the balance. I love ⁓ love what ⁓ Lou Priolo says in his book ⁓ the ⁓ The Heart of Anger. He recognizes that the biblical answer is not abandoning authority, but exercising is this his idea, exercising authority lovingly. And really all of the really balanced parenting books talk about the idea of being gentle.

speaker-1: Sure.

speaker-0: So nobody, nobody that I know that is teaching biblical principles of parenting would ever teach that it's appropriate for us to be out of control, angry, harsh, impatient. But what I think is happening is there's this natural tendency to respond to maybe a bad experience of in our childhood or bad parenting of our parents. And even just the whole idea of rules, you know, we hear these things like you can't have you you can't have all these rules, it's all about relationships. But but in order to have relationships there has to be boundaries. Right. So I I think that the it's it's really all about biblical balance. There's not just two there's not just two ways. Well, there's both of those ways combined.

speaker-1: It's almost like we've equated the word no as if that's a bad thing. Right. But but no can be a very loving thing. Yes. Like you you can say no, and it's ⁓ our Heavenly Father has told us no on things that we may recoil against, but he did it because he loves us. He just never said no.

speaker-0: Never restrained, never disciplined, never corrected.

speaker-1: Yeah. And it's not like Hofney and Phineas I mean, I guess in a sense they got a perfect score to going to Prophet Sunday school class, right? Or you know, like they you know, they they but that's not what they're remembered for. Right. Which I I'm bringing that up because I think the context in which you and I pastor, we pastor in a context where ki t tri parents are bringing their kids to church in a sense we talked about this last episode, so go back and listen if you haven't seen that one. ⁓ and almost expecting the church to do this discipling for them. And what we're trying to speak towards and through and a and against in a sense is that kind of mindset. And we're trying to encourage parents. No, you have been given a delegated authority. That's what discipleship looks like for you. You are the authority in your home. That means that it's not it's you know, it gentle parenting means encouragement, n encouraging negotiation over command, which is often the case. Collaboration over authority, emotional validation over moral confrontation. Right. That's not scriptural. And yet it's very prevalent. I'm gonna quote someone too. This is Sarah Awkwell Smith. She wrote the book on gentle parenting. It's literally called the gentle parenting book. She published it in 2023. She says, this is her definition. Gentle parenting is a parenting style that focuses on connection. This is their focus. Watch the order here. Connection Empathy, respect, validation, and positive discipline rather than punishment. Yeah. And it's almost like they're putting punishment as an unloving category. Right. And that's what the balance that you're trying to say is. Well it could be unloving, right. But it could be loving. It's there's a balance

speaker-0: It's not one or the other. And I think sometimes when we attempt to correct what we perceive is out of balance. So correcting harshness with a lack of any authority is sending you to an equally out of balance approach of parenting. And I'm glad you quoted from ⁓ h her book. There's there's another lady who her her last name is Nost K and O S T who wrote the book Jesus the Gentle Parent. ⁓ wow. And again, you you read some there's probably a lot of positive things. There's probably a lot of positive things about how we approach our children ⁓ the way Jesus approaches his disciples. Okay. ⁓ there's there's some benefit here, but but when the whole emphasis is on a a couple of her points are one is is that children's behavior is communication. So children don't misbehave. This is her quote. Children don't misbehave. They they are behaving in order to communicate something to you. So your role as a parent is to figure out what they're communicating to you through their behaviors. ⁓ So it's not to correct the behavior, but to figure out what's being communicated

speaker-1: Why are they behaving that way? What are they thinking?

speaker-0: The the second well, there's a lot of major issues with ⁓ her principles, but the second one that I notice that's a major problem is that she's teaching parents in and supposedly connecting this to what Jesus did. And and I'm sure there, like I said, there may be some positive things we can learn from here. But her principle is that connection precedes correction. And this is her quote. The solution to every parenting problem starts with these nine words, these nine little words. I'm here. I hear you. How can I help you? When needs are met through connecting, hearts are open. This is her quote. Hearts are open to gentle, respectful, compassionate correction. Wow. Now, I mean, again, there's a lot of there's a little bit of a little bit of truth mixed with with a wrong emphasis because we all believe that rules without relationship could be damaging. Like if you're heavy handed with rules and you don't have connection. But but I d what I don't prefer is that the emphasis is on what the scripture the scriptures the emphasis is the opposite of what the scripture emphasizes. That we as parents in the book of Proverbs, I mean how many verses are there? I have ⁓ all here listed, but I won't on ⁓ on specifically the correction. Yeah. The di the discipline. And assuming that you can

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: ⁓ it seems like they're assuming that you can almost raise your children without an emphasis on authority and discipline. And that is very unbiblical.

speaker-1: Well, we're born. All of us are born with a God like intention. We we want to be in charge. We all do. We want to set our own agendas. We want to set our own purpose in life. And we all are born, including our kids, with a shocking entitlement. And I don't know a single child who when his told no responds

speaker-0: Yeah, we rebel naturally.

speaker-1: Well, thank you, dear father of mine. How much I needed your authority in my life. I am a shockingly idolatrous child. I that's not our inclination. And I think it it it's amazing to be in a mall or a grocery store and and watch a four-year-old with his hand on his hip and his jaw set arguing with someone who's living and lived forty years longer than him, three times his size. And what is he thinking as he's arguing with this Adult figure. He's thinking in that moment, I'm the Lord. I'm I'm in charge. And yet how many parents cave like David did? That that is the testimony of Adonijah. That's what prompted this conversation today, at least. His father had never at any time displeased him by asking, Why have you done thus and so? The verse continues. He was also a very handsome man and was born next after Absalom. Well how have you Thought about Absal. How is that one, by the way? Absalom, you know. He was pretty rebellious. By the way, they must have been both been pretty good looking guys, because that's what it says about both of them. Right. Somehow that blinded their parenting, which is maybe another lesson in and of itself. But th this this is a a the the idea that as a parent I'm yielding my authority. You should know something. A parent when when a parent stops leading, the child doesn't stop being led.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, somebody's gonna lead them. Or they'll lead them. And and this really gets to the heart of and the core problem, I think, with the emphasis on gentle parenting over what they would call what they're assuming is the traditional model, which is the authorit authoritative approach. Not just authority, but authoritative, like strong handed. Right.

speaker-1: Or they'll lead themselves. Which we're not going to

speaker-0: Most of them, most of the gentle parent promoters are absolutely against any sort of spanking. Okay, so that that sh should be assumed in the gentle parenting movement. But you can apply the rod gently. I mean, it's gonna hurt, it's painful. Okay, but I think the core issue is really answering this question what is the child's greatest need? And when you're when the whole definition of gentle parenting is empathy, connection, relationship, what we don't hear is anything about their sinfulness, their rebellion, their natural propensity to go their own way. ⁓ in one of th there's a lot of articles out there that you can find and I would encourage the listeners to go look, but there's a lot of articles that critique the gentle parenting movement. And I really appreciate that. Gospel Coalition has a a really excellent article. And we can post some of these maybe in in our podcast as well. But one person said this, this is Bethany Verrett in her article, is gentle parenting biblical? She said one of the concerns with gentle parenting from a Christian worldview is that it does not look at children whose sin as a part of a rebellious nature But the method assumes that children can be reasoned into good behavior, because people are inherently good and rational. And so you can reason with them and rationalize. And this is the core assumption that contradicts the Bible. And of course we know Psalm 51, 5, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. Romans 3, 23, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I love Romans three because from the from from the very ⁓ outset it says there's really nothing about us that naturally is good. Right. So And what's interesting is that scripture shows us that the way God corrects our rebellion is through discipline. And of course the classic text is Hebrews chapter six. And and it's interesting that Hebrews twelve uses the same word. It's one of the only places in the New Testament where the same word that's used in Ephesians six, four. Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath, but bring them up in the

speaker-1: I was about to say Hebrews twelve. There you go.

speaker-0: Here it is, nurture, that's the word training or discipline. It can be translated training or discipline, and admonition, which is the word correction. In in in Hebrews chapter twelve, that same word is applied to our Heavenly Father who's disciplining us. So for me, it's ⁓ not only is it counter ⁓ it's against the scripture in the way of of presenting children's great need, but how did God correct our need? He's disciplining us, and even when we're saved, we still go our own way sometimes, and God disciplines us. He brings us back. And it does say that it's supposed to be grievous. It's supposed to be painful. Right. So there needs to be painful consequences for the rebellious choices in order to correct the main issue, which is the fact that they're rebels and they need to be followers of Jesus.

speaker-1: I I think you're getting back to I I wanna come back to that core issue. As I think that's what gentle parenting movement and frankly any other parenting movement that would come before or after it ⁓ is trying to get at. Well, what's the main need? What do our children need most? Right. And what we need to stop asking is, well, let's pull the crowd. And what do you think is the greatest need of your kid? What what do you think, Mark? What do you think, Caleb? ⁓ it doesn't matter what I think. Right. What does the Bible say is the great need of our child? And that comes back to the conversation we had last time you and I sat down for this discipleship. And the context is very clear. You mentioned Ephesians six, Ephesians five, that's where the context begins. It talks about be filled with the spirit. Question, Paul, what is filled with the spirit look like? Well It looks like this. If you're a husband, you love this way. If you're a wife, you love this way. If you're a parent, you love this way. That's how you show you're filled with the spirit. And if you're a child, now what does a child need? Ephesians six one. Yes. Children, obey your parents. Obey. Yeah. Well, you can't obey someone who's not an authority. So that's then Ephesians six, verse four that you just referenced. P fathers, here's what you're supposed to be doing.

speaker-0: Correct.

speaker-1: So it's not a matter of well what our our kids don't need our the the primary motivation, it they need to understand what authority is. And and parents need to be that godly authority which is balanced. Yeah. It's not extreme one way or the other.

speaker-0: I mean this is kind of a side note in a practical sense that I do believe as we're raising our children this way and we are showing them that the core issue is their sinfulness and the only way to correct that sinfulness is to have right and rightly administered retribution in in corporal punishment. I do believe in the rod of correction. As we show them how to obey us in that way, they are also learning how to obey their heavenly father in that way.

speaker-1: Well we've talked about I think as listeners they're probably thinking, well, you're talking about young children and I still have kids in that age. Your kids are older than mine. ⁓ but we've got w what I what we I think when we really see this play out, we see this as they get into adolescence, teenage years, and then early adulthood. Yeah. Where they grew up in a home, this is Adonijah again, this is Hoffney and Fidney as a again, where they grew up in a home where they were the center of decision making at a young age, and then now they're teenagers And they're still the center of decision making. How many times, even caving to the demands of their children, have we as pastors seen parents make decisions on about where they're gonna go to church based on what their teenager wants? It's it's a shocking thing. And they'll follow their children to church. Or even ⁓ you know, other parents that now they're young adults are gonna make the same decision about church based on their kids. Well that that goes back to much earlier age groups. So

speaker-0: kind of shocking it's

speaker-1: Well, we might say gentle parenting is new and trendy. It's been around a long time before someone called it gentle parenting.

speaker-0: Yes. And I think you're right that the the way that plays out when as they get older is is really becomes devastating in the Christian home. Because I think if you're raising your children with this whole approach of like validating their emotions, becoming their friends, connection first, those are the kinds of things that if you're raising them that way. And then you continue that into the teenage years and now they're making choices that you know you have to confront, but you've never confronted them all along. Right. And it is it's amazing how many parents of young people and even parents of college students. I worked in the college environment as well. Yeah. And they're they're calling the institutions to have you do the confrontation.

speaker-1: For you for them. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like nineteen year old

speaker-0: I've had I had that happen in on in the college environment as well. I'm so thankful that I would say I was raised in the more the traditional approach and the more biblical approach. We're in rightly administered discipline with a loving relationship. And guess who the first person is that I talk to about pretty much any debatable thing that I'm about to decide is still my dad. And I'm in I know we talk

speaker-1: Same for me, not your dad. My dad talked to our parents

speaker-0: And and there's that there is a so it's a misnomer to say that you're not gonna have friendship the rest of your life. Of course we do. It's gonna mis it's a misnomer to say that you're not gonna stay closely connected for the rest of your life if you raise your children with properly ordered discipline in the home.

speaker-1: This week I was able to be on vacation up in Indiana preparing my message to finish out the life of David in my father's study. And it was you it was a special bond that we were able to have and he gave me information and some things that were helpful that I used in my sermon. So obviously I had that, but I have a respect for my father that grew out of a loving discipline in that home that I had.

speaker-0: I think there's a fearfulness. Parents are fearful of the confrontation. And I think sometimes coming alongside and doing more confrontation to help the parent is absolutely for us as pastors. What I really love is when I know the parents have already said the same things I'm saying to

speaker-1: It might be necessary. I'm disagreeing with you. Or I'm agreeing with mom and dad, you know.

speaker-0: But in a but a lot of times what happens, especially in the teen years, is they basically expect they expect the youth pastor has to connect with my kids. If they don't connect with my kids, then my kids won't have anybody to confront them when they do wrong. And really the conversation should be happening at home. And if the pa the youth pastor happens to connect with them, that's wonderful, but we're not relying on that. We're not relying on that to solve the issues that are the of of rebellion that we might be seeing. in our child. Yeah. We gotta have the courage to to do the right thing and and put the consequences in their lives at at the right moments.

speaker-1: ⁓ Th and this is where this is I we mentioned last time we were together we're gonna need a part two. This is kind of the part two. We probably need to do a part three as well on this family conversation because for our church, we with your arrival have put ourselves in a different direction than has historically even been known in our own context. Historically, you know, senior pastor, first tire, youth pastor. Right? We're gonna you know, that's how we build the church. And you can build numbers. I don't know if st studies Will indicate that it's ever been successful spiritually. And there aren't many studies that if you read Ken Hand's book Already Gone or Sticky Faith or any others that indicate this hasn't worked, you have come on, we have said, No, no, before we ever get to the youth pastor side, let's address the family first. Right. Now, for our listeners, Mark never came to be the youth pastor. That that was never the goal. I can quote myself. I actually I I had we were there was a QA before you came, like a Sunday before you did a QA. Someone asked, Is Mark coming to be the youth pastor? Here's my answer in January before you came. No. Mark is not coming to be the youth pastor. Mark will initially fill in our youth youth roles while we look for a youth pastor, but Mark is coming primarily to focus on our families. That was my question.

speaker-0: It's interesting. I even remember communicating that to the youth group with the intent of sharing what what our philosophy was. Yep. And I would say things like, I said this several times to them, the goal is not that you're connected to us as your pastors. We want to be connected to you. But the bigger goal is that you're connected to your parents. I would say that in the context of that's why I'm in here guiding the youth right now. And we we may have a youth pastor later, but we want to set a philosophy here that says the goal is to have parents more involved. Yep. Parents taking responsibility.

speaker-1: And what's beautiful now is with Andrew Star's arrival, we're just continuing that same philosophy. We have not changed that philosophy. And ⁓ there has been an an ⁓ understandable, I guess, well, this is different. Yeah, it is different. This is we're we're just not buying into the gentle parenting philosophies. We're not buying into that. We're saying, No, you mom and dad, you're the disciple makers in your home. That's what scripture you you don't get to delegate that authority to somebody else. Right. Including us, as much as we want your family to do right. We want and no, God gave you that authority. Now how can we help you? And that's what you're here for. And that's now also what Andrew Starr is here for. But we have not changed.

speaker-0: Yeah, proper authority. Yeah. Rightly ordered authority with a right heart and compassion. I just talked with our ⁓ families this Sunday about making sure that w that we are never angry when we're dealing with our kids. So I I think that again it's the combination, it's that narrow pathway because we do believe we should be gentle parents. Yep. I mean, I worked diligently at this anytime I was disciplining that I always kept my voice and my inflections and my face. Sometimes I would je even smile at them and just say, This is what God's asked me to do. You obey God, I obey God, and properly, properly implementing the rod of correction at the right time, that is gentle parenting. And by the way, there's a book out there called Give Them Grace. The greatest grace we can give them is right discipline. Wow. We don't over we don't give them grace by exempting the discipline. We give the discipline which is grace. That's God's grace through us.

speaker-1: Here's the irony, in s and scripture points this out. It gives us real life examples, Adonijah, Hafni and Vineyas, we could have given others. The irony of if you make a child the center of decision making, they do not become more secure. They become more fragile. They do not become grateful that you made them the center of decision making. They become demanding.

speaker-0: They need leadership.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. And they certainly don't become more mature because you never train them to make mature decisions. I I remember a shift taking place. I don't I my parents obviously had the decision that they began to show us, particularly from scripture, a at a young age, why the decisions were being made, but this is still the decision being made. Right. And it's very helpful. So a a child who is never led will eventually become a child who insists on leading themselves.

speaker-0: Very Right. And again, we all I I just want to reiterate as what we've said many, many times, we all humbly enter into this heavy, heavy task of raising the next generation in our homes. And it is only by God's grace we need to be humble and growing, but we gotta stick to biblical principles. I believe that if you follow the gentle parenting model, you're really walking into kind of a woke philosophy of how to approach children. So we want to make sure that we are still p pushing the biblical truths, the biblical models. And again, we'll you know, we'll we'll post some of these articles, you can look at it and if you're y you know, this is a this is something a lot of people are talking about. It's different differing ideas of the philosophy of parenting.

speaker-1: And we come on again. I w we're I'm thankful for this format 'cause it kinda what's relevant to our church and ⁓ we hope that it's helpful for our church congregation, but perhaps others that are listening as well. I'll I'll give another word to an older guy. This is JC Ryle, just to let you know, the gentle parenting is relevant today, but it's maybe not in name, but it's been around for a while. He JC Ryle has a little book called The Duties of Parents, and he gives a warning. He says, Beware of Of excessive tenderness, it is far more common than excessive severity. And and his point was don't probably he's not saying don't love your kids. He's he is saying love your kids, but he's saying but l part of love, and in the whole he you can read it, he he fleshes it out, part of love is is having boundaries, of establishing right practices, of pointing back to scripture. That's love. And This excessive tenderness is what he's re fighting back against is just let you know, let him then be part of the decision making at a very young age when they're not ready to be doing that. That would be the danger that he's putting.

speaker-0: If we discipline them properly, eventually they will discipline themselves. That's the goal. That ⁓ once they're out of our homes, they have self discipline. They put up their own boundaries. Yeah. They allow God to continue to chasten them when He needs to, but ⁓ the discipline is still there.

speaker-1: So here's the warning be careful when your parenting begins to ask Lesk what is right and more what will keep them happy.

speaker-0: Yes. Be careful. Absolutely.

speaker-1: That's a warning. And and and less what does God require and more of what will make our life in this home easier right now.

speaker-0: Yes, that's excellent. And I think, Pastor, that for our church, the more we have these kinds of discussions, and again, we're learning and growing ourselves. And I w I want everybody to know that we're we we don't have all the answers, but the more we discuss these things, the more responsibility parents take. Yes. And to me, that is that is the core issue. Parents are responsible for the discipleship and discipline of their children. We're here to ha assist you and part of the way we're assisting you is just bringing it up more and more and more to say, Let's go. Step into this gap. Let's ⁓

speaker-1: Especially in the younger ages. It is wonderful to see. Just wait to see if God hasn't returned yet. Some of those young kids we had two brand new babies in church for the first time ever with their moms and dads on Sunday. That was pretty neat.

speaker-0: Two families join the church that have younger kids. Yeah. One one one with a baby and a couple yeah, those families joining. It's wonderful. Yeah.

speaker-1: Very lot of All so I I want to say there's a there's an excitement brewing. ⁓ you were voted on by this congregation. You had the highest vote percentage of any pastor ever. That's muddling. And Andrew Starr came on and he's the second highest. So it's it's ⁓ what a wonderful fit. We're so thankful for that. So there's some positive energy. You're still doing family conversations this summer, although that's coming to a close. We're looking forward to making more announcements about other things coming.

speaker-0: And he what a great fit.

speaker-1: Gotta keep it. And then there's those Wednesday things which have been a unique flavor that allows Amy to

speaker-0: We do a lot of discussion, yeah, a lot of give and take, and we want we want everybody to know that we are just here to assist and help you guys succeed.

speaker-1: Right. So that's the goal. And maybe we could end there is with that in mind. If you're listening and you're a parent in the Greenville area and ⁓ you don't have a church that's helping you parent, we we want to let you know that's what we're here, that's why Mark's here. We'd love to have you come check us out, see what we're doing, ⁓ and ⁓ I I think you'll be blessed as as you see from scripture how it is that God has called you to parent. So thank you again, Mark, for joining us. I I should also say we've mentioned Pastor Andrew Starr. At some point we gotta get him on here, you know. Definitely. Gotta get him on here. I told him that right before we came on. I was like, all right, you're next, Andrew. We probably should be able to get you on there. But we'll get more of these conversations going as God continues to bless us as we study his word. We pray that he would be doing the same for you as you're faithful to his word as well. Thank you for joining us again. ⁓

speaker-0: Thank you for joining us today. For more information about Faith Baptist Church, visit us at cctaylors.org.

speaker-1: At www.fb