Panel on the Levi Coffin Trip

To invite our panelists to make your way forward.

And while they do so, a few weeks ago, uh, several of us had a chance to go on a trip to the Levi Coffin House, and we're gonna share about that experience.

And uh this was a part of um uh there was there were several from our church and from some other churches, and as you'll hear in a little bit, the coffins uh uh were significant figures in the Underground Railroad uh movement.

In a community of other Quakers that moved from North Carolina and were under the conviction that following Jesus meant that they needed to do some things differently than the law of the land at the time was indicating.

So a community of Quakers in Fountain City, uh Indiana that lived about 150 years ago, where we'll tell you a little bit more about it, but uh we're gonna start with uh a slideshow that gives you some of the visuals of what we saw while we were there, and then we'll begin to tell you some stories.

Talk to that guy.

All right, uh for the rest of you, let's just begin with the question of why uh did did you decide to go on this trip and to uh tell us a little bit about what you were hoping for as you as you made that choice to go.

There should be a mic.

We decided to go on the trip just to get a deeper um understanding of how Indiana really played a role in you know helping freedom seekers and just to help educate our you know our granddaughter and um other family that went with us.

Yeah, good.

I wanted to go because um oh, my name's Zane.

I wanted to go to the trip because I've never been on a trip with the church before.

I'm Kai and I wanted to go on the trip.

Well, first of all, my parents made me, but I found it out.

I found it to be interesting once I got there.

You know how that goes.

So uh Yeah.

And also I had some friends that were going on a trip, so it was nice to just be with the like the church community and explore something that's new.

Um I'm CJ.

Um I decided to go on the trip.

Um because I always just like having uh community and fellowship with my church family, but also have heard of the Levi Coffin House and how great of an experience it was.

And I felt, you know, since I'm a you know I'm a Hoosier living in Indiana that I should have I should go.

So yeah.

Um my name's Anaya and I went on this trip because I in school I was learning about the coffins and how they um affected and helped us how they helped enslaved people and I wanted to learn about I'm Landra and I went on this trip because um I really enjoy learning about history, but I think there's something special about like learning about history that you're connected to in the sense that like I live in Indiana and it's things that are things that happened in the history of Indiana.

So my name is Daniel.

Uh I one reason I went on the trip, uh Andrew sort of mentioned I took photos and some videos during the trip.

I've been working on a vision video for the Perry grant based on some of their the experiences that they've done to kind of highlight what they do.

Uh but I also wanted to go uh as our as a family, so my wife and our two daughters went as well.

Um and my oldest is Olivia, and she's seven.

I've she was like a little too young to go on the the Underground Railroad trip to Cincinnati, uh, but this felt like a better fit for someone her age.

Uh it was only like not even a full day, um, so a little more attainable.

Um and I think she's at an age where she can start processing the realities of racism as well as slavery in America.

Um and I like that Perry gives a space for kids to enter into that without it being too high pressured for them.

I'm Jack.

Uh this was not my first time uh uh going to the coffin house.

It's either my third or fourth.

So I was familiar with it.

Uh I went primarily, I think, to uh be part of the experience along with uh other members of the church.

It's also true that I frequently go to underground railroad sites when I'm in the area, including I'm planning to take a trip to Canada for this in about a couple of weeks.

So there we are.

Daniel mentioned the PERI grant.

So part of the funding to help us do this trip was uh was through a grant that our church has received called the Parenting Ambassadors of Reconciliation Initiative.

So that's what PERI stands for.

And Debbie and I are the uh co-directors of that initiative.

Um let's do you need your prompt?

Okay.

All right, so CJ, um describe some of the one of the things that you saw there, the coffin house or the exhibit center, and uh tell us a little bit more about why it was memorable to you.

Um I remember seeing going upstairs um in one of the bedrooms, it had like two like full-size beds, but also like behind the bed, they had the little cubby hole where they would like hide um oh sorry, I took hers.

Um, where they would hide runaway slaves.

But we got to kind of go in there and kind of see it and experience like what that would have been like.

And I think um I'm claustrophobic, so I'm like, I don't know if I would have enjoyed that, but um, I think even thinking about um like having to hide away um like that in that kind of manner was um interesting, made me think.

Yeah.

Okay.

What was the question again?

Describe one of the things that you saw at the uh Coffin Center or the Exhibit Center, and and why did it stand out to you?

All right, one of the things I saw was like CJ said the passage where they would hide enslaved people, and the lady there mentioned that they would hide their their whole family would have to be in there, and the passage was probably 13 feet long, like two and a half, three feet wide.

And I can imagine having to try to fit five people in there, and you can't cough, you can't sneeze, you can't number, you can't bur, you can't fart, you can't do any of that.

Because you have to hide, and if you get caught, then it could be your life or it could be your family member's life.

And then there's one more thing I saw.

I remember seeing like it was like a uh I don't know how to explain it, it was like a statue kind of of like now a young African-American child, and it was like up against the wall, and he had chains on his hands and his feet, and I remember just like reaching out to like touch and feel like the chains, and I remember how heavy they were, not only to have them on his hands, but his feet too at such a young age.

And then not only having to do that, but having to like pick cotton or whatever else they had to do with those things on your hands and feet.

So it's D-A-Y-N-U.

D-A.

Uh CJ stole mine, so um.

Uh this isn't something I saw, but this is something I heard.

I just every room I went in, there was a story for it, and I I really like listening to the stories that of the enslaved people and maybe scared they were.

And I like learning about Shandell, tell us about one of the freedom seekers that you learned about.

Um the one that stood out to me the most was um Henry Box Brown.

Um, it really like moved me and my husband.

We talked about it.

Um, we showed our granddaughter just to know that he, you know, lost his children, his wife, and he had shipped himself in a box to for to freedom.

I mean, I tried to put myself in like I couldn't imagine being in a box upside down, traveling for hours, days, you know, just trying to get free so that he didn't have to be controlled and beaten and just really touched my family at least.

Zane.

Um what's some what uh what stands out to you about a person or the other people on their trip?

What uh was there anything that someone did or said that stood out to you?

Something that stood out to me was me and CJ were um talking and finding out questions, and it really stood out to me um about some of the stories uh about the people.

All right, thanks CJ.

I mean to you, Zane.

Sorry.

Uh Daniel Yeah, so I think I think something that stood out to me um seeing the people that were on the trip is just their like a lot of the kids' curiosity, wanting to ask questions, eagerness to learn.

Um, and then even like on the charter bus, like driving back, there's a microphone, and so like just uh you know, Sprock would ask some questions and seeing like the kids' willingness to like talk about something they learned or something that they thought was interesting on the trip was I think that was really cool for me to see.

But I also really enjoyed seeing um people from it was like cross-generational.

So then you could even see in one of those photos.

I don't know everybody's name on the trip.

There's some people that like don't go to real like different churches, which is cool.

But um, there's like a there, there's a lady who was holding a baby that was like it's not her grandchild.

That I mean she may have just met this baby, yeah, that picture there.

And so like there's a lot of that going on where it's like someone who's older is like taking care of someone else's kid or like listening to them or talking to them.

Um you know, I saw you know, Pastor Drew sitting on a uh uh seesaw or something with like a youth like talking to them about life or whatever, and you know, you just see people like interacting in a way that maybe you wouldn't normally see um just like here at church or something like it, just provided an opportunity to just like talk and and see people supporting other kids that weren't their own.

Yeah, uh why don't you uh keep the microphone, Daniel?

And the next next question is what's something that uh troubled you while you were there, and how did you or are you uh processing that?

Well, I think something that troubled me was sort of like my inner skepticism while I was there.

Um, you know, I just kind of kept thinking like, can there actually be an altruistic family willing to risk so much for thousands of other people?

Like, does does that actually exist, or is there like some ulterior motive that they had?

Like that, like I'm sort of like trying to process like why would someone do this?

I mean, we we know and we like to think like we would do this for other people.

Um but I don't know, like there was just that inner skepticism, and I think that says more about me um than it does about Levi and Catherine Kaufman, and so um I don't exactly know like what that means.

It is sort of like kind of troubling to think about.

Um and you know, it's just thinking like, do I need to open myself up to more people and families who are willing to do things like this?

Do I need to be connected to more people?

Do I need to see more like real positive examples on how people are putting their own selves and their lives in more risk on behalf of other people?

Like what does that mean?

Like it's sort of like holding up a mirror.

Um I mean, I don't, I don't know, like I the coffins, they it seems like they were somewhat, I don't know how wealthy, but somewhat wealthy, like they had resources.

And I'm you know, I think about myself and like maybe I'm not like in the same position that they were in, but they're like a white family in Indiana that's risking something on behalf of people that are not white and on behalf of people who are marginalized and oppressed.

And so it's it feels in a little like they had a house, I have a house.

Like it's sort of like holding up a mirror to myself and just thinking, like, you know, what am I doing?

And you know, I think all of us probably here would feel a sense like maybe we're not doing enough.

Maybe the coffins felt like they weren't doing enough.

Um but yeah, it is I don't know, just I I don't know how that I guess that sort of is loosely tied to like the idea of just like being there and just feeling skeptical, like you know, why why do they do this?

Yeah, yeah, thanks, Daniel.

Wait, sorry, Daniel.

So I think um for this question, what really troubled me, me and CJ were actually um in the basement, and our tour guide was you know talking and said that there was actually slave watchers that lived across the street.

And what did she say to CJ?

Like me and CJ at the same time looked at each other and she said they were still there, and we just kind of like looked at each other, like hold on.

I so I guess it was more of okay, we still have these people that are you know there.

I don't know, it just mentally I you know it really bothered me, and I'm still kind of trying to process that.

Like it keeps running through my head.

Thank you.

Um is there any more that you want to say about some of the other feelings that came up um while we were on the trip and how how you're navigating those?

Um I I can say sadness, anger.

Um a lot of people know I'm I'm biracial, but you know, Andrew has said things, you know, that he grew up with uh racial slurs and stuff in his family.

Same thing with me.

Um my mother was you know obviously not racist, her parents were.

Um my grandfather did not meet me until he was, you know, until I was three, four years old.

Um and even then growing up, I still heard the racial slurs, the the different things that my mom tried to shelter me from, but she couldn't because obviously that was her family.

Um I didn't really have a connection with my father's side of the family once he passed away.

I did hear the stories of my great-great-grandmother, you know, was enslaved and lived in Mississippi.

Um, I heard different stories about my father, you know, had to work in the cotton fields, things like that.

So I think I had a lot of anger, but also a lot of sadness to know that my family has gone through a lot and had to endure a lot of that abuse and neglect.

And, you know, we all have dreams and talents, and but black people were treated different.

And it really, you know, it saddens my heart.

Zane, you you um what about you?

What are some of the feelings that came up for you while you were on the trip?

How how do you navigate in those during the trip I felt curiosity?

Um more curiosity?

Yeah, okay, good.

Uh what happened at the Levi Coffin House.

And then more curiosity.

Good.

Those are that's great.

Uh obviously besides like sadness and just kind of some of those more difficult feelings.

Um, I also felt like hope.

Um like Daniel mentioned, um seeing a family like a white family that is um using their resources to help as many people as they were able to help.

It made me feel hopeful um when there is such uh huge injustice in the world happening that there isn't just like one or two people, it wasn't just Levi and Catherine, but it was a whole system set up to help these people and to get them to freedom.

So what about you?

What are some of the feelings that you had while you were there and choose one of them and tell us more about it?

Um sympathy was one of the feelings I felt when I was walking through the house and seeing all the things that they had to do, all the sacrifices they had to make to help these people.

And they did it because they knew it was the right thing to do.

All right, uh, Kai, imagine that one of the people you learned about was sitting with us today.

What encouragement or advice do you think that they would offer us?

First person I think that comes to mind is probably Henry Box Brown.

And I would say that the first thing that comes to mind that I think you would probably tell us right now is no matter how hard it is, always persevere.

Always like whatever freedom looks like in your life, whether that's financially, spiritually, always do what you can to make to get that freedom for you, your family, your friends, whether that's yeah, like I said, financially, any type of way.

Just persevere.

You can do hard things, and yeah.

Um first passion comes to mind is Levi and Catherine Coffin.

I would feel like if Levi was sitting by me, um I think he would encourage me to help people in need and um always do the right thing for people that need help.

Good.

Thanks.

How do you think uh Catherine and Levi would describe what it means to follow Jesus?

Jack, you want to take that?

Okay.

I don't know if this is cheating or not, but I can read him.

Okay.

Cheat away.

Real quick.

You can get his story.

This is a book that he wrote.

And it's also online if anyone wants the details on that.

But I just I highlighted it and it'll be real quick, I think.

Sure.

I should note that that his use of the term colored is of his time.

All right.

And that's that's as far as terms go, that that'll be uh as far as that goes.

I was pained to hear of the capture of these fugitives and inquired of some of the friends, Quakers, in our village why they did not take them in and uh hide them when they were pursued, and then they aid them on their way to Canada.

I found that they were afraid of the penalty of the law.

I told them that I read in the Bible when I was a boy that it was right to take in the stranger and administer to those in distress, and that I thought it was always safe to do right.

The Bible, in bidding us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, said nothing about color, and I should try to follow out the teachings of that good book.

I was willing to receive and aid as many fugitives as were disposed to come to my house.

I knew that my wife's feelings and sympathies regarding this matter were the same as mine, and she was willing to do her part.

That's probably far enough for that right now.

But one as I kind of surveyed his book, the thing I kept finding is some of the same verses that we think about uh calling upon us to do justice were the same ones he responded to.

The Good Samaritan is one that I've seen mentioned.

Uh this that I just read, it doesn't cite the source, but it's Matthew 25, clearly.

So um I think there's my answer.

You know, he he he draws from what we have.

Jana, what what would you say?

Uh I think I would say that um the coffins didn't really have to profess their faith um because they actively showed Christian love.

Um they committed every day to you know um help free the slaves and um seek justice.

So I kind of uh was reading, so I went back to like John 13, 34 through 5.

Jesus commands, just as I have loved you, you also are um to love one another.

And I think the coffins, you know, they did that.

They loved everyone.

Yeah.

Anaya, um, if you had to choose two or three values that were really important to the coffins and their faith community, what would you say they are?

And how how did they show those values?

Um my first one is justice.

Um I think well, they believed that it was right to treat everyone as equal and they shouldn't be left out or discriminated for their color of skin.

And my second one is peace.

And they knew it was right to keep helping.

My third one is kindness.

Um they show kindness a lot throughout their lives.

Kindness to other people and kindness to the escapees.

Jack, what about you?

Two or three values that were really important to the coffins.

This is about their community.

Yeah, so if if you had to choose two or three values that were really important to the coffins and their faith community, what would they be?

All right.

Uh one thing that I think uh people don't realize as much about the coffins as perhaps they should, uh, if you're familiar with uh the fair trade movement, uh they were important theorizers of that.

And what that means is at their the at their time they were merchants, that was their job.

What did they do?

They they they had the local finger quotes department store, if you please, all right.

But they didn't want to sell one thing that had been made by slave labor.

Uh, and so they did all they could to supply their store with materials to sell that were not produced by people who had been enslaved.

And I'd go a step further.

They, on the other hand, particularly sought out materials to sell that were made by free persons who had been enslaved.

Uh so cotton was something they sold, but they wanted to sell it from people who produced it of their own free uh labor.

And this, by the way, wouldn't work unless people would buy it.

Uh it cost more.

So their community had to come together on that.

And I think that's one of the one of the ways in which their values and the values of their community came together.

Thanks, Jack.

Alondra, uh, what similarities do you see between the time and circumstances of the coffins and our time?

Um this topic, I think, as especially as like a first-generation uh immigrant, my family, uh, me, I was born in Mexico, so I'm an immigrant to the United States.

Um, and in like our current political climate, um seeing how immigrants are currently being treated in the United States, um, and just knowing that there's uh laws in place that uh people will use maybe not, maybe not as an excuse necessarily, but to justify um certain behaviors and certain uh violations of human rights, um, and it's something I wish I didn't see as a similarity in 2026, but unfortunately it is.

Um is there anything uh you can take this one too, Alanra.

Is there anything the coffins and the community do people they share life with did that translates to our time and context?

If so, what what what is it?

How can we learn and follow the examples of the coffins, the freedom seekers, and those who were part of the Underground Railroad I mean I think what Jack shared about um when uh maybe the coffins uh felt like they weren't doing enough, but the fact that they were actively looking to sell products made by free people, um which we might not think so, but like our money does talk and using the resources that we have, whether it's like purchasing from you know directly from people who support certain causes, um that yeah, I guess that would be translated.

Yeah, so um I think that I'm gonna go off script, which might be dangerous.

I was like, I just want to read what I wrote.

Um I think you know, it's there are two things that I was thinking about that I feel like haven't been mentioned yet that I feel like are important and sort of translate maybe not one-to-one, but in a way.

And and so like one of those things is that the the coffins, and I may not be getting this correct, so please feel free to correct me, but like they they built their house or at least part of their house over a spring, and they used that spring in they they put that in their basement and they used that spring to take water from so that people in the community wouldn't notice that they were going to the well, like like if they have 17 enslaved people in their house or something, you're gonna have to go get a lot more water, and so people aren't gonna notice that you are taking water from your own spring that's in your basement.

It's secret, and down where they had that spring, there's like a they had had like a little kitchen, like it's it's a room for um the enslaved people to stay.

And I just one thing that I that I thought was really cool about that is um, you know, you hear the stories about you know shipping yourself in a box and um you know just like very uncomfortable, like they were even talking about uh like there's the wagon where they would uh people would hide underneath like products and stuff like that, like the false bottom or false and like those are like difficult circumstances, but then you also have this story of like creating a home and an environment where you can cook food, where you can get water, you can clean yourself, you can like stay somewhere with dignity.

Um and they intentionally like they use their resources, they built their home, or it was it their whole home or part of their home, like over top of this spring so that they so they could do this.

Um and like you know, I'm just thinking about like my life, and I'm like, oh do I want to call like an AC repair man to fix my or like to make my air conditioning run better or whatever?

Like, uh, or maybe I'll try to do it myself.

And they're like, they're like, we're just gonna build a home over top of this spring and make a whole like basement dedicated to these people.

Um and I think another thing I was also thinking about how for for Catherine, she I don't know the exact title they that she would call herself a a sewer, uh uh seamstress.

Thank you.

Um but we were talking this morning at breakfast uh with our daughters too, and just like she she made clothes for for the enslaved people that would come and stay with them.

And Aaron was saying, like, it wasn't just to have new clothes.

I mean, part of it is to have new clothes, so it doesn't look like you're wearing, like, I mean you've been traveling a long way, you may appear as if you're escaping, so give you nicer clothes, something like that.

But also they're coming from like the south and they're trying to go up north to Canada where it's colder.

And so let's make you some clothes fit for the weather that you're going to endure.

And so it's just another example of like, we're not just gonna help you, but we're going to like treat you with dignity that you deserve.

And I think that um so let me read the question again.

I think if there's something that translates from their time to ours, like, uh do we need to build our houses over springs?

I don't know.

Do we need to be a seamstress?

I don't know.

But like um they noted this is so this is a part that I actually did write down.

They noticed who was being oppressed and marginalized, they made a plan to help those people, they made a space in their home, and they used their resources to welcome other people with dignity.

And I think that that's a really hard thing to do, but they prepared for it.

Um, and another thing that I just wanted to note is um, according to the records, um they had a 100% success rate of moving people to freedom.

And I don't think that happens just from having the willingness to risk, was that me?

I don't know if that comes just from the willingness to risk your own livelihood.

Um, I think that's a part of it, but you also need like a meticulous plan.

And so that when someone who is enslaved shows up at your doorstep, you're not trying to think, what should I do?

Um, but you know what you're going to do.

Um so it's sort of like the you don't have to get ready when you stay ready kind of mentality.

So I think I forgot the question.

Um yeah, okay, I got it.

I looked at it.

Uh the thing I I would note real quick, uh, I want to give you a couple numbers.

While they were in Indiana, uh the coffins have been credited with uh helping as many as 1,000 people.

Uh they moved from Indiana to Cincinnati, and they are thought to have helped from Cincinnati an additional 2,000 people, so 3,000 people.

Now, this was all in the uh around the time of 1830 to about 1865, and even after the Civil War, they continued active because they they felt like things were going to go backwards.

They believed that, that's why they wrote their story.

When you add those numbers up and think about all those people, and at some point the children, it occurs to me that there could be easily several million people that would trace their descendants through uh a house in Fountain City, Indiana.

And you know, we have had plenty, and I'm not in all at all implying too much, we've had a lot to say about uh people like Oscar Schindler, who uh helped the Jewish people, and that needed to be done.

That was a Christian work too.

I just think that we need to kind of think of Levi Coffin in those same same terms, uh, and just say that that's that's those are the they're called the wet rescuers when we talk about them uh in relation to the Kermans and the Jewish.

And Levi Coffin is that, that's what he is.

He wasn't the only one, there were others.

All right, Harriet Tubman and others, but uh clearly these are stories worth uh worth knowing and and emulating as we're able.

I don't know, that's maybe I answered the question.

What do you hope?

Uh that story is what do you hope to include?

Yeah.

Um, I think you want me to answer the prior question first, right?

Um I think similarities.

Um I think one thing we uh always talk about is like sharing a meal.

That's one thing I feel like as a church we do pretty well is eating together.

But even just how much of that is um in a way a theological practice of how much sharing a meal with someone.

Um everybody has to eat at the end of the day, but I think um the action of prompting and initiating, sharing a meal with someone and say, hey, like what are you doing for dinner today, or what are you doing for lunch today, and saying, come to my table and eat and dine with me.

Um I think Pastor Drew, I think, said um they had so much relationship and rapport with the Kaufman's that they would even call her Aunt Kathy, you know, just to show Aunt Katie, just to say that like that kind of relationship they had where they weren't blood, they were in no way related, but they were in constant relationship and fellowship in the way where they were eating together and she fed them, and how that kind of builds relationship of filling the physical need, obviously, you know, going to uh fighting for freedom, but even just the smallest need of everyone needs a meal and everyone has a table and has a place of which at some point we have to sit down and eat.

Um so I think um in 150 years, if we look back at Real Community Covenant Church of what we were to be known for, seen for, um I think I would hope that it's mission, uh mission and justice.

Um, even just last week, the service that we did, like stuff like that is even though we're practicing Sabbath, stuff like that is not always restful in the sense of the process that it takes and all of the setup and all of the connection and everything.

Michelle I tell you, I mean, the process of putting all that together is not always the most restful thing for everyone involved, but um it's the great call that Jesus has called each and every one of us to to go and make disciples of all nations.

And when I think and I look at the Great Commission, um, sorry, I'm not trying to preach, I promise, but when I look at what Jesus says with the Great Commission, he says, go and make disciples of all nations.

And then after that, he says, but be not afraid, for I'm with you until the end of the age, for he knows that um the work that he's calling them to, to cross cultural boundaries and to um, you know, make relationship and build relationship with people who are different and have different life experiences is challenging.

Um, in a way, you kind of sever relationships with people who do look and act like you, um, to build relationship and disciple and evangelize to people who are different from you.

Um so that work is it's hard.

The work as a church that we feel that the Lord has called us to, um, it's not easy work, but um I guess if we were to look back 150 years, um, that we were a church that was committed to loving the stranger, to loving our neighbor well, um, and knowing that the Holy Spirit has called us to the called us to this as a church, um, and knowing that he is with us and before us and behind us in doing that.

All right.

Let's thank our panelists for their willingness to get a pair of chairs of the story.

As we close today, I'm I'm going to read uh a few verses from Hebrews, and I'm gonna give you some moments of silence because I think there's an invitation from God in this for us.

Maybe it's to um in these moments, it's prayers of to intervene on somebody's behalf who you know is being mistreated.

Maybe it's uh asking God for the courage to take some action steps uh that that move you to a better preparedness or a greater degree of hospitality.

Maybe it's um it's something else.

But I want us to give us a few moments of space to listen.

Because God desires to tell us something and to continue to lead us in the ways that He led this Quaker community and all that were a part of it.

There's there are things in our day which we collectively are being called to.

This from Hebrews 12.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, securing its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Let's take a few minutes of silence.

God's desire is to speak to us.