Can Faith Based Films deliver Hard Hitting Truth? The Burden of Filmmaking with Spencer Folmar

speaker-0: Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry. Across denominations and disciplinary mediums, Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather and celebrate their walk with Christ with their God-given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. Welcome to another episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. Today I am joined by Spencer Fulmar, who is a film director, writer, producer and film festival is it would creator be a good word or festival director?

speaker-1: Yeah, either one.

speaker-0: Great. ⁓ and so that's actually how we well, actually I don't know how we met. We became Facebook friends randomly and we we talked about this on your your own podcast, ⁓ the Hard Faith Podcast. And so we randomly became Facebook friends, but then we f officially met last year, last summer at the Hard Faith Film Festival, ⁓ which was just awesome. An awesome experience. ⁓ it really felt like a a place for my short film Sons of Thunder and ⁓ Just really ⁓ kindred spirits there. ⁓ and so many amazing filmmakers and and I have a meeting up with ⁓ Nathan who is there with ⁓ Flesh and Blood later this week, so that's exciting. But ⁓ why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit and your story? I would love to know more about ⁓ you've you've expressed your testimony a little bit in the past at the film festival, ⁓ which I think is super interesting 'cause I feel like in my circles ⁓ it's typically just a bunch of church kids and so y that's not exactly your story.

speaker-1: No, it is not my story. ⁓ thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Chris. And I'm so glad we got connected. Like you said, I can't remember exactly how we got connected, but Facebook connects all. and ⁓ Hard Faith Fest last year was a lot of fun. And we have another Hard Faith Film Festival coming up ⁓ in a few weeks in June, ⁓ June twenty-fifth through the twenty-eighth. And ⁓ it's gonna be another great event. ⁓ Hard Faith started actually right after I converted to Christianity. Like you said, I didn't grow up in the church. I didn't grow up going to church, never read the Bible before my twenty first birthday. And before I moved ⁓ to Los Angeles, to Hollywood, I wanted to figure out once and for all what I believed And I had read some other spiritual books. For some reason at this point in my life after graduating college, I was searching for like a truth or foundation. And for the past few years I was just out of kind of default a nihilist because I had read the Book of Mormon, I'd read the Quran and I didn't find ⁓ a lot of enlightenment ⁓ in those books. And so I realized and Also some of my ⁓ sisters and some friends, they encouraged me that I never read the Bible. I never gave it a fair shot. And so I read the Bible for the first time ⁓ at an international Bible school in New Zealand. And it didn't take long. It took a few weeks, you know, the the flesh did fight back, but it took a few weeks, but I I finally had my heart of stone turn to a heart of flesh and I realized that the purpose of my life wasn't to just glorify myself and get as rich and famous as I could, but the purpose of my life was to glorify God and let other people know about the good news. And at that point, in my life, I had known since a very young age that I always wanted to make film, but I didn't know what what for? And now I had a purpose a and a for, a reason to make films beyond just my own you know, vanity. And And now I felt like I was on a mission and a calling to make films about God and to let other people know about this amazing truth that I felt like had been so buried under religiosity and church culture ⁓ and Western culture. Because when you read the Bible and you strip it down to what Jesus said and what is in the New and the Old Testament, ⁓ and you really focus on the early church understanding of Christianity and you really focus on what matters. matters most in life. It's not what most churches or Christians or faith based films talk about in my experience, and it certainly wasn't that experience growing up. Whenever I heard from Christians or was drugged to church either Christmas or Easter. I just didn't get the impression that Christianity was a lighten of the burden, ⁓ but more of a heavier burden. And I felt like a there was a lot of people not being authentic, not being real, and that I would never be good enough for their club. ⁓ And then whenever I read scripture, I realized that I didn't it it was never about me being good enough for their club that, you know, God loved me in spite of how wicked and evil I continue to be. And I wanted to share this truth with others. ⁓ I started watching faith based films because I never saw a faith based film. I never heard of a faith based film because I grew up outside of Christian culture. And they weren't ⁓ the kind of films I wanted to make. And so I wanted to make and created a term called hard faith for films that dealt dealt with real issues that the Bible deals with, that we deal with on a daily basis, that our family and friends deal with. and bring the gospel truth and bring light to the darkness, even the darkest topics that films and especially faith based films and often even pulpits never talk about or address. ⁓ and I've been on that journey for so long now. I'm getting old, Chris. ⁓ but I've been on that journey now for I mean, I graduated seminary in twenty twelve, so it's been all fourteen years. ⁓ and so right after I went to Bible school I went to seminary because I realized that I you know, I read the Bible for the first time, but I didn't know anything about Christianity or about church history or about systematics. And so I wanted to have some kind of foundation, just an understanding so that Hopefully if I did talk about God in a fictional script I could speak about him accurately and not create more heresy and not do the easy thing that so many faith based films do, which is like health and wealth prosperity, like we'll win the football game or, you know, the person will heal from their incurable disease if you just believe in God. And so I wanted to tell real stories. ⁓ and hard faith, you know, it's telling stories that liberate, that's our motto. But also it's acknowledging that life is hard, but also that God is good. And even though that seems like a contradiction, ⁓ it is not a contradiction. ⁓ and you can still have peace on this side of heaven.

speaker-0: Yeah. Th much there to I want to to pull on. ⁓ so for your for your sister and your family to and and friends to kinda like tell you you haven't really given the the Bible ⁓ a good shot, ⁓ what what kind of motivated them for that were are th is your sister and f friends and family were they Christian or was it just kinda like, Hey it seems like you should try this just 'cause you're a searching?

speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ my both my sisters were getting really serious about their faith out of school. My s one sister had read the Bible in its entirety, my other sister had gotten married and were really active in their church. And our family had at least you know, I was in the youngest, our family was just not that active ⁓ in church attendance or church going. And I was the least interested in it of everyone in my family. And just sort of a rebel, you know, without a cause from a very young age. And I just I really for whatever reason kicked against Christianity ⁓ for a long time and wrote it off because I think like growing up in rural America or Western culture, you you hear a lot about Christianity. You know, you hear about the crucifixion, you hear about the virgin birth, you hear about Easter and Christmas. And so I just felt like I'd heard enough and I it was enough to write it off. ⁓ and the people that claimed to be Christian just seemed like everyone else, were worse. So ⁓ my sisters, especially knowing that I had my heart set on moving to Hollywood from a young age and joining this crazy film industry. I think as older sisters tend to be and my sisters are, you know, wanted to encourage me to read a book that helped transform and guide their life to hopefully help me be less destructive in my early life choices.

speaker-0: Interesting. And so when you attended Bible college, were you on the journey to becoming a Christian at that point? Or it kinda seems like in your story you're kinda like, I'm just gonna go to Bible college. Is that kinda how it was?

speaker-1: Yeah, I was gonna my f original plan, and again my sisters intervened, but my original plans were just gonna it was just gonna like go to a European cafe and just like read the Bible from front to back and decide like is this true or is this false. ⁓ But my sisters tr really encouraged me that you know perhaps it would be good to go to a school setting where you could sit under people's tutelage that had dedicated their life to understanding this book. So if I had questions I wouldn't cr come up with a cult or you know heresy. that I could ask questions and wrestle with people who had dedicated their lives to understanding this religious text. And so, you know, I I love I grew up traveling overseas a lot and have been overseas a lot and I'd never been to New Zealand. So I was like, all right, well there's this Bible school in New Zealand called Cape and Ray. And it's mostly an outdoors Bible school. And so you're like camping and canoeing and living outside primarily without any ⁓ technology for six eight weeks. and you're reading your Bible and learning with other people who are also searching for truth. A lot of gap year students, a lot of international students, some people after high school, some people after college. I was after college, I was an older student. And when I went in there, I was still like, all right, no matter what, I get to see New Zealand, I get to see the wilderness, I get to see where Lord of the Rings was filmed, this will be cool. ⁓ But some of these students too that were going to this school, like their parents had gone to Bible school and so they were making their s you know, sons or daughters go. And so people were there for different motivations. And I I was there mostly to just try to disprove it. And also give it a very fair shake because I never had before and just get through the Bible as quickly as I could. And I and I even started in the book of Acts because I just felt like I had heard so much about the Gospels and Jesus' life. I was like, What's the rest of the New Testament? And I never heard anything about Acts. So I started in Acts and went all the way to Revelation, then through the Old Testament, and finally read the Gospels. But it's it's like as much as I try to disprove it and also try to discredit my classmates and my teachers who were earnest in their pursuit of truth, ⁓ the more I just realized what a, you know, selfish SOB I was and how much ha you know how much I was in need of a savior because I it's like the mirror was finally turned and I could see myself clearly and I could see that all my motivations were tainted with sin and understood what sin was. And it was and it was in the you know it was in Galatians. It was Galatians two twenty, it's no longer I who live but Christ who lives through me. And I realized that ⁓ that there I could have God living inside me and through me and changed me for the better, ⁓ in spite of my old sin nature. But it was it was tough. I mean I wrote a detailed journal about the days and there were so many days that I just wanted to quit and and not continue the education because these young Christians really got on my nerves.

speaker-0: Yeah, I ⁓ I also went to a ⁓ a Christian university to start I was there until my sophomore year and so like just in experiencing people there for bunch of different reasons. ⁓ yeah. People who were like further along in their faith, you know, studying to be pastors and youth pastors to people who are very young in their faith starting to be pastors and youth pastors and ⁓ you know, people who were just there on a scholarship for soccer or whatever, so ⁓ and my film school experience was it was a quote unquote Christian film school, ⁓ and so we had a lot of people who were just there just to learn film and they actually didn't really integrate film and faith very well at the school I feel like. So it was kind of an interesting experience there. But ⁓ now I'd love to pivot into talking about your the filmmaker side of things, ⁓ and and talk about getting the film bug from a young age and and then just following that dream. I mean so many people have the dream of of going into film, but you are actively in this industry. ⁓ you are, you know, making films constantly. We're gonna talk about ⁓ Saint Nick of Bethlehem in a little bit and how that was you know, a a number one film on Netflix or not Netflix, on ⁓ Angel Studios for a while. So talk about the film bug.

speaker-1: Yeah, the film bug bit me early. ⁓ from my earliest memories. I knew I wanted to make and direct and write films. ⁓ I grew up in rural Pennsylvania. There's not a lot to do there. ⁓ and I wasn't an avid outdoorsman or hunter. and so I fall I fell in love with movies at a super young age, at our local drive in theater, at our single screen cinema. And I just I mean I would rewatch the same VHS tape until it practically broke because I would just be obsessed with watching movies and I watch them over and over again. and can still recite some of those childhood movies in their entirety. And I just love that escape, love that adventure, love that that world that these films created. and was o from a young age, like writing scripts, writing stories, borrowing my parents video camera to shoot short form videos with my ⁓ friends from school. And starting in elementary school, I mean I think my first project I did was either in fourth or maybe even third grade. you know, in in public school they often have you do a lot of busy work where You know, you write a paper, which can be fine, or something worse, like a poster, you know, where you cut out like a whole bunch of magazine and you stick it on a poster. Something meaningl mindless like that. And so I would always ask my teachers, instead of making a poster, instead of doing a presentation, or even this paper that I've written a hundred times, can I make a video instead? It'll it's a lot more work for me. But I can tackle whatever topic we're talking about in class and make a video about it creatively and then we can show it in class. ⁓ and I can scratch my itch. And ninety nine percent of my teachers said yes from third grade until senior year, and I did it in college too. ⁓ and I did it in seminary as well as independent studies. But So that was super generous and amazing of my public school teachers because they encouraged me to continue making art. And then after I'd been making videos, hundreds, if not thousands, of short form videos, what happened in two thousand three was the advent of YouTube. And now I could upload these videos in seventh grade, I think, is when YouTube came out for me. ⁓ and now I could upload these videos. I've had just been sh passing around the VHS tape around classrooms and to other nearby schools, but now we could upload and digitize and ⁓ upload these short form videos and put them on my YouTube channel. And then like the hobby turned into a session. And I was just making webisode series, television series and everything I could possibly make with my classmates after school and throughout the summer. ⁓ and and we would premiere them like every Friday and and just make so many videos. And then it was whenever I was seventeen between my junior and senior year, I realized I've I've made thousands of narrative f ⁓ films, short films that I've written and directed. but if I just put like seven or eight of these together, these ten minute films, I'll have a feature film. And so between my junior and senior year of high school, I've made my first feature film. and then premiered it after my graduating from high school and then sold it on Amazon and made a substantial amount of money and it paid off my film and all my film equipment and and made like three times the budget and so I was like, huh, I can make a living do thing doing this. Like it's not just a hobby. It's not just an obsession. I can actually make a career doing this. And so I've I've pretty much just been making films ever since.

speaker-0: Nice. And so that what's the title of that first feature? Is that still around?

speaker-1: It is not still around. It is horrible. It's called fortified. It's like a thriller, ⁓ in the vein of like found footage almost. I mean it's a steady cam, but it's not good. ⁓ but it it was good for me.

speaker-0: Yeah, i I mean, Amazon bought it, so that's pretty cool. ⁓

speaker-1: It it was shocking. I mean there wasn't a lot of competition back then because even like at that same time it's like the dead digital revolution had just taken place and so even having accessible digital cameras that could imitate film and be able to you know, it democratize the whole industry because now anyone could make a feature film and I was in that first class of people making digital films for almost no budget. But yeah, I mean it it fit that genre of thriller and ⁓ it's not good but it made good money.

speaker-0: Yeah. And so was was your next film then ⁓ Generational Sins or was it ⁓ something?

speaker-1: I'm I made another movie in college. it was a loose adaptation of Crime and Punishment, Fyodor Dostoyevsky's ⁓ novel, and it's called Guilt and Sentence. And did the same thing with Amazon, you know, tripled the budget, tripled the revenue, tripled the release, you know, multiple theaters instead of one theater and sold DVDs this time and merchandise and and then, you know, that was in college Graduate college early, was gonna go straight to Hollywood and then converted Christianity, which threw a wrench in my filmmaking career. And then I didn't make another movie from twenty ten until twenty seventeen is when Generational Sins came out. So I went to Bible college, then seminary, and then I had to work at Microsoft to pay off all my debt doing corporate videos. And I moved to Hollywood in twenty fifteen and then worked with my cousin on writing the script for Generational Sins. We shot it in sixteen and then it came out in seventeen. And so there was like a five-six year gap there while that started with searching for God, converting, Bible school, masters, graduate school, and then and then finally made my first hard faith film, ⁓ Generational Sins, and then been making those primarily ever since. ⁓

speaker-0: Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel Podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. Alright, back to the show. And so in between ⁓ that session of of Discovering God, going to seminary, ⁓ and and eventually leading up to generational sins. Was there any like conviction in your in your spirit about pursuing film and Christianity as you were getting more like ⁓ established in your faith? Was there any like tug and pull? 'Cause I've felt that a lot, ⁓ of like the tug and pull between ministry and film. And so I'm curious, did you feel like you were ever like I have to lay like God's leading me to lay down film and my craft? Do you have anything like that?

speaker-1: ⁓ n not not terribly, thankfully. Like even at seminary, like I told everyone that I was going there with and like the president of the seminary about my the reason I was going to seminary. Like I told them, I'm not going into ministry, I'm not going to full-time ministry, I'm not going to become a pastor. And they were all super cool with it. And I told them I'm just trying to write theologically sound scripts. And all my classmates became pastors. ⁓ you know, and and so I have I I think I have a interesting understanding, a unique understanding of like how the sausage is made in church and also just like behind the curtain of church life, ⁓ of of a pastor's calling. And I think being a pastor is the hardest job in the world and something I don't think I was ever called to. Certainly not yet. ⁓ and I hope never, but you know, we see what the Lord does. And I so I never felt like a moral dilemma between ⁓ Like all right, I'm pursuing something worldly, I should pursue something like more holy, like in ministry. And it's probably like in the denomination, like I I've I've mostly been Presbyterian since conversion and like Tim Keller and Keller was always very pro the arts and said like just because you're in ministry it's not more holy than you know being a mechanic or an engineer or a doctor. And so in seminary two that same theology was prevalent. ⁓ and there's a huge weight on whether or not you're called to ministry in seminary and in that in our particular Presbyterian ⁓ tradition. So it's not something you fall into as much as like you can't escape. And certainly I've escaped it so far. Now I have worked at churches, ⁓ like I've done video production at churches. I attended film school overseas with NYU ⁓ in Singapore and on Sundays, you know, I've preached ⁓ I preached at that s that Singaporean church on their like they did a third service to try and reach people who were skeptics and seekers and I've preached at different churches around the world and in prisons and even in Bible school I was pr preaching at a prison. ⁓ and so I I I I I don't see it as like two separate callings but almost the same calling.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ and so did you ever have a point, like obviously you knew what you wanted to do from a young age, ⁓ and were exercising those creative talents early on. ⁓ was it immediately upon or I guess I'm curious about like a clarity of calling, and if you when you got to seminary, if there was ⁓ just a clear moment of like I mean you went to somewhere with the intention of hard faith films basically. ⁓ and so Yeah, was there was there a point of like definitive like I'm supposed to make movies for the kingdom? and or was it just kinda like I'm gonna I'm gonna fall into what I've just always been good at?

speaker-1: ⁓ I think the first calling was film at like age seven. Like I can distinctly remember seeing the credits rolling forever at the drive-in and being like, I'm gonna I'm gonna be part of this. This group of creatives, I'm gonna be part of that. That's this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna direct movies. And then I have forever been on that course and then whenever I converted to Christianity it was like Alright, this is really important to me. The point of existence, the point of humanity, the point of the cosmos. Is about this God I just learned about. It's so important to me and it's such a huge obsession now that I know I'm gonna make movies about God. I'll make other movies too that aren't strictly religious, Christian, hard faith. ⁓ but I I know I'm going to be talking about God a lot because this excites me so much. ⁓ and it's the most important thing you can possibly talk about. So I just wanna do it well. And that's whenever I felt like the calling, like, all right, now I need to get like my theological ⁓ foundation so that I can hopefully not lead people astray and speak about God clearly, especially to the s skeptic searching s searchers, non-believers. I think I feel more called to those outside the church than those in the church, but also called to ⁓ you know, r remind those that have been stuck in the church for a long time of the first love that they first found in the grace of the gospel. now I'll say this too. I think it I th I really do think my filmmaking career has been a calling and not like a passion or almost even a choice because I you know, there's been there's been seasons of struggle for sure. Like during the pandemic, you know, there was no work whatsoever. I've had films that have financially flopped horrifically and I've lost a lot of money and I've lost other people money and it's a big setback and it's very hard to overcome. I've started businesses and production companies and they have collapsed. ⁓ the pandemic I had ⁓ a small theater chain and it collapsed and I lost a lot of money and I've put a lot of blood sweat and tears and all my savings into that for five years and then it was gone in a blink of an eye in the two weeks to flatten the curve. And so at those different ⁓ setbacks and valleys in my life, which I've had many of, ⁓ I I've questioned the calling and I've been like, all right, Lord you know, maybe I should get a r real job. You know, maybe I should get become an a c I don't know. I'm not really good at anything else, but like maybe I can learn to be like get some other job. Because also too, whenever you try and apply to other work outside the film industry and your entire resume is creative work, like writing, editing, producing, directing Those skills don't really transfer to any other career. It's not like, ⁓ yeah, like come, you know, come be a doctor, ⁓ come be an engineer. And I don't have many other skills besides theology and cinema. And ⁓ and so I I that but I have done other work, like in the pandemic, I had to do just but about anything just to put gas in the tank. So, you know, I can be resourceful and I've questioned the calling. But even though I've tried to run away from it like Jonah, ⁓ it engulfs me again and I it it all roads keep le leading back to cinema. And whenever I pursue it, I feel the fulfillment and I feel the obedience ⁓ in pursuing it. Because too, it's like some of these films like I know we're gonna get into and talk about a little bit, I There is a real reluctance in me me to not make these films and not talk about these things because they're hard topics to talk about. And ⁓ and so it it it's costly to me and my my my mental health and emotional health ⁓ to make these films on hard topics that we deal with with hard faith. But I do feel it as like a burden and a calling. Because as hard it is as hard as it is to write a fictional story about someone suffering, it is a million times worse for the person who's suffering in this particular way. And so I'm hoping that if that person that is suffering that I'm writing the story for sees their story on the big screen, that they'll have hope and that their burden will be s slightly lightened. But it's it's a it's a terrible calling, ⁓ but it's a it's a blessing and a curse.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I relate to that a lot, ⁓ just in the sense of like like I'm kinda not good at anything else. Like I've I've thought about lately of ⁓ you know, I've up until this point I've been working an hour away from my wife and newborn and my wife's been taking care of the baby simultaneously while working, so I'm like maybe I just become like a power washer. Like I I can do manual labor. Yeah. ⁓ totally. But ⁓ I've been there. Anything else is like I don't know, anything else. that would be good at. So ⁓ I wanna hop into ⁓ down the line talking about your your current project with the days are evil, but ⁓ I heard a really great story from some of your cast members ⁓ of Generational Sins last year at Heart of Faith about, you know ⁓ if I'm not mistaken, neither of them were or are believers necessarily. ⁓ and I remember listening to some as I was just researching some of your content on the web. ⁓ you know, ⁓ basically like it's kinda like a third on generational films were Christian and the rest weren't. ⁓ so there was a really cool story that one of them shared about like kinda like something happening and them being like, Is God real? ⁓ could you share that story if you remember it?

speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ I so that we released I'm really glad we did this, and I haven't done this with a lot of my movies, but Generational Sins was special. ⁓ you know, it was establishing hard faith, it was telling a really honest, raw private story publicly, and and it like I put everything I possibly could into that movie, like as good as I could possibly make it, we did. And And the cast was great and yeah, a lot of them were non believers, but they believed in the story, they believed in the project and they l fell in love with their characters. And I you know, a lot of them are actors and so they've they've tried on different roles and characters, but they've never been in anything Christian or dealt with anything Christian. And I this was my first like Christian movie, you know, after conversion and and seminary and I I knew that the experience that they had on set was just as important as the impact I hoped the audiences would experience watching the movie. And so I really wanted to be good to my casting crew and thankfully it was a really great experience. ⁓ and it was about twenty one, twenty four day shoot. ⁓ But like God super blessed that set and was like present throughout the production. Like we would pray and you know, we would always pray and we'd say, like, all right, the producers and I and some of the cast and some of the crew are Christian. So beginning each day we're gonna pray. Y'all don't have to join. You can join us if you want, you can not, if you don't want, you know, not looking to offend anyone, but this is what we believe and you know this we need this. ⁓ and we're gonna be praying. Irregardless if you want to join. And so we'd pray, and sometimes they'd join and sometimes they'd not. and and God would miraculously answer prayers on set and also like almost instantaneously prayers would be answered miraculously. Like he was just moving in a way that rarely he has moved in such an obvious, evident way, ⁓ in my life. And even too, like throughout the whole film we would be filming and it'd be like the most like dramatic emotional powerful scene and lightning would be flashing in the background on the exact take that we were gonna take for the film. And and it's like, you know, our lead actress and our lead actor, ⁓ they noticed and they noticed the difference of the the b you know, above the line crew and ⁓ the producers and I and A lot of them, you know, I I've stayed very close to all of the casting crew of that film. And even though most of them have still not converted to Christianity, they still ask about it and even our lead actress said in an interview like that was the most spiritual experience she's had her entire life was being on that set. ⁓ our lead actor, you know, him and I went to church a few times together, you know, I've sent them all Bibles and religious books that I've taken great inspiration from and we've had a lot of talks. And, you know, I think they're on a journey. and we'll see where where they lead.

speaker-0: Yeah, I I ⁓ recorded my first episode of this podcast a couple of days ago with a friend who's a music producer and we did a lot of music videos together in Detroit. ⁓ he's a a rapper and and beat maker and ⁓ yeah, I I I asked him a similar question about like just collaboration with ⁓ those who are outside of Christianity. ⁓ which is an interesting motif running just between the two conversations. ⁓ and after you know in the midst of this one and after that one, the the importance of treating the the method of creation, whether that's music or film or whatever other medium of creativity that ⁓ one finds himself in, if it's a collaborative medium, ⁓ the the journey of making it is just as much ministry as the fulfilled product. ⁓ and being able to hop on set with people who aren't exactly in the same spiritual journey as you and being able to to share the light of Christ in that space, ⁓ I think is so important and whether it's it's music or film or whatever, and being inviting those people onto the project, ⁓ I think is important. And I've I've heard some other testimonies from last year, from my film festival time at some other festivals of people having those similar experiences, but and I I said this in the the last podcast with Miguel is You know, Dallas Jenkins got a lot of flack for ⁓ you know, his DP having a a pride flag on his camera case. ⁓ and, you know, I I was sitting on a plane with a woman who was like very upset with that. And I was like, I it's kind of like a multi factored thing of like there are discrimination laws that people have to be considerate about. ⁓ and also like ⁓ you know just because you're making a a project like the chosen that is so ⁓ faith forward about Jesus and you want to have as much covering and and prayer heading into a a a series like that. ⁓ it doesn't exclude ministry happening on set. Like this isn't ⁓ this isn't a church that you're hiring ⁓ you know ministers to be inside of. Like you as the production team are ministering to the people participating in. And so I think I thought it was just a a really cool experience hearing ⁓ the actors of Generational Sins talk about that and and being willing even to like just be on record, like record themselves saying these things 'cause we saw those clips at Hard Faith of of your actors ⁓ being willing to just like talk about that, which I think it that in and of itself I think is a big thing. It's like that they could walk away from that and like, Yeah, you know, I don't believe but like, you know, this was pretty surprising. And so speaking about cool cast members ⁓ you got to collaborate with Daniel Roebuck, ⁓ who is famous from Matlock and Lost and and tons of T V, tons of films, and you guys got to collaborate on a a film called Saint Nick of Bethlehem, ⁓ which was a big hit last Christmas and I got to experience ⁓ Daniel actually at a different film festival later in the summer after ⁓ Hard Faith and so it was cool to see you have like a cameo at that festival without being involved in it. ⁓ And so I'd love to hear about the process of that story coming about 'cause it seems like a very personal story and a very ⁓ community driven story. which I think again we're like kindred spirits of like I'm very much ⁓ like I want every movie to be made in actually Detroit. You seem very kindred there of like, you know, in I don't know about specifically in Pennsylvania. It's Pennsylvania, right?

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, Penn Central Pennsylvania. I don't know where.

speaker-0: Yeah. And so ⁓ I love when filmmakers are just about where they grew up and or or just about a a centered place. And we see that a lot with like New York, we see that a lot with LA, but like we don't see that a lot with other places in the country, so ⁓

speaker-1: And I love Sons of Thunder, by the way. Plug for Sons of Thunder. Can't wait for the future film. Daniel Roebuck is is an amazing talent and creative force. And he's also from Pennsylvania. So before I did the Hard Faith Film Festival, I used to have a film festival connected to my theater chain called Veritas. And we had this category called Made in Pennsylvania.

speaker-0: ⁓ thank you.

speaker-1: And Dan, when he made his first feature film seven, eight years ago, called Getting Grace, ⁓ he submitted it and he won and he wasn't able to attend, but we struck up a relationship and found out he was from the Lehigh Valley, ⁓ which isn't too far away from me. It more in eastern Pennsylvania, more more in central Pennsylvania. And we had stayed connected for years and I was always trying to find a project to work with him on. We were supposed to work on shooting heroin together. He was gonna be the sheriff, but But he got a television network show that he couldn't pass up on, and so that didn't work out. ⁓ but there's a script I've been writing for like some of these scripts just take me forever to write. It seems like, ⁓ it just happened overnight. But I started writing Saint Nick of Bethlehem ⁓ in the summer of post-production on Generational Sins, so in 2016. Aye, and It was w it was my first A D's wedding, ⁓ and his father in law ⁓ through his mom's marriage, ⁓ him and I were hanging out after the wedding and ⁓ smoking cigars and I had found out that he b had become Santa Claus in our local community, this very small close-knit community, and he had become Santa Claus, but was mostly Santa Claus to like down and out people, people who didn't have much to begin with, people who were really down on their luck during the holidays. And I was like, This is such an interesting concept. I love Christmas. I actually love Santa Claus, especially since I grew up outside the church. There's no like stigmas about the big old jolly man. And And I just love that this guy that I've known for years, you know, Alan ⁓ Smith, who St. Nick is based on, ⁓ he's even in Generational Sins in a little cameo. And I'd known Alan for years. My first AD, I'd known him since he was sixteen, knew the family forever. And ⁓ and so I started writing this Christmas movie about a Santa Claus to people in lowly, ⁓ desperate situations. And then ⁓ a few years later as you know, I was getting the first couple drafts out, ⁓ and trying to figure out how to crack the nut on the script. Tragically, Alan's only son died. and he it all unraveled on Facebook. Like he's like, My son is sick. We're taking him to the ER, he's posting it on Facebook, he's like asking for prayers, and then like twenty, thirty minutes later Wow He's like ⁓ he he passed away. And like his son was his entire world. And so I thought and this was like in October or September I think he passed away, maybe October. And I thought, well, obviously n there's no way Alan's gonna continue being Santa Claus. But months after they buried his only son, he was Santa Claus, if not even more Santa Claus, to the community. And I think even found purpose in being Santa Claus, ⁓ with losing his son, almost like a catharsis as being a father figure, since he can no longer be a father to his own child. Yeah. And You know, it's just it's a beautiful story, ⁓ Alan's real life story. I even have a documentary called Sad Santa and the healing power of giving that's coming out this Christmas with Alan. ⁓ that's the real life story about Saint Nick of Bethlehem. ⁓ it's a it's a sad, true story and Alan is a very selfless person, a very humble person. And like he gives away his son's old toys and a and Alan doesn't have much. Like he it's not like he's wealthy. ⁓ but he gives away pretty much everything he has to make families and kids' Christmases special. And he does and he's been doing this now for like a decade. And he does it all the more even after losing his son. And even though like he cries himself to sleep every night, he still like smiles and makes kids Christmases. And so it's this beautiful story that I've been trying to honor for so many years. And even on my when I had my first date with my wife on Christmas Eve five years ago, I told my wife, you know, then first date, ⁓ that I'm writing a Christmas script. And I'd already been writing it for five years, but ⁓ but that I was gonna make a Christmas movie finally. You know, 'cause most of my movies are very sad and are rated. And And she said that sounds really interesting. But I said like the most difficult thing about this is that, you know, for a Christmas movie, most people are expecting a certain amount of like Christmas themes and tones and and rating. And so it's I just don't know how to make this movie not be so sad. ⁓ and and for people to watch it and still and want to watch it, you know, because like most of my films the biggest difficulty is just the marketing because like people don't want to deal with these topics ever, let alone like paid money to go watch two hours about this topic. And so we have to get very creative with the marketing for people to deal. Like a you know, a spoonful of sugar makes medicine go down. So our sugar is the marketing and the the vehicle of the cinematic story and the actors and everything else. And ⁓ so whenever we were buying years later, ⁓ we're back in Hollywood after my wife and I had married and we were at the Burr Bank Home Depot buying our Christmas tree. And I saw Danny and that and Dan and I stayed connected. You know, we saw each other about once a quarter. We'd get meals in Los Angeles. And Dan, you know, hadn't sh shaved in a while and he was at ⁓ the at the Home Depot and I pointed at him in the window and I said to my wife, Wouldn't he make the perfect Santa Claus? And so we I went up to him that day and I said, Hey, I'm gonna send you a script and I don't know how you're gonna take this, but I think you'd be the perfect Santa Claus. And Dan's like, you know, that's one of the rules I've always wanted to do my whole life. And so I sent him the script. He had some great ideas on how to punch up the script and make it a little bit more lighthearted and comedic, a little bit more sugar. And he's the

speaker-0: 'Cause like experiencing him for the first time last year, he was just like such a such a ham in the best way, like so funny, yeah, super witty.

speaker-1: Yeah, he's larger than life. ⁓ and so, like, within a week he had these great notes for the script. He became a co writer, became a producer on the script. And he grew up in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, which is the first Christmas town in America. Like the the town's older than America. And it is I i it's it's just iconic for spending Christmas there. And so we filmed it at Christmas. Dan's great script. We co-directed it together. He played Santa Claus. We based it back in his hometown and it it was broken up into two production periods, two weeks of filming during Christmas so that we could get all the town decorated for Christmas and didn't have to decorate it ourselves and recreate snow and everything else. And then we did three weeks of filming about six months later in the spring, where we could take our time with interiors and everything else for some more of the dramatic scenes. And then it was you know, a year of editing and then you find out with Christmas movies that you can only you know, obviously you can only release it at Christmas and that the selling window is very small and so you have to have all your films done pretty much by September first, ideally like Aug August first if you're gonna get it out for that year. So we missed the deadline for that window for the first year. But we did a theatrical release, private theatrical release, and then the following year finally in twenty twenty five of last year. We did our wide release. We did a theatrical release and we did Amazon and the main one was Angel. And I had never released anything on Angel, never had anything I don't think that would have fit on Angel. I don't think Hard Faith, most of their films would fit in their audiences. But ⁓ Saint Nick got on there and within like twenty four hours of it being on there, it was number one film on Angel for all movies. And this is a low budget independent film. And all the films that were in the other nine slots of the top ten movies were like films that had ten X, if not a hundred X, the budget that we had. But not only did we make it on the number one slot, we stayed on the number one slot for a week and we stay in the top ten slot for a month. And so we it just it kind of like caught fire and people really loved it and there were no other Christmas movies of you know, recognition that really fit that traditional h Christmas movie, classic Christmas movie, nostalgic Christmas movie genre like ours did. And so it just it really blew up on Angel in a way that I never ever expected. And and we like I I don't know. It it r it did really well and I'm really pleased because that film was a real labor of love and it took so long. But like the waiting and the patience paid off and it and it turned out really well. So I'm really pleased with how that movie finally came out and performed.

speaker-0: Did did anyone from Angel has has anyone from Angel reach back out and it's like we could use some more of that?

speaker-1: ⁓ yes. And they reached out on like the first day and they're like they emailed me, one of the head of marketing guys and or the the head of marketing and they said like, Hey, your film's number one because I wasn't checking it. Like I'm I I you know I don't even have Angel, but ⁓ you know, and they're like y you're number one on Angel and this is really good and like you should share this because you know most independent films like this don't fit on number one. And so yeah, they've reached out and ⁓ and they're they were happy and we're happy and there might be a sequel in the making. I There might be more Christmas movies yet. Which which is good for me. It balances me out with all my dark and sad films I make.

speaker-0: That's awesome. If you're someone who loves apparel that shows your creative side while sharing your faith, I've just the thing for you. Our sponsor, the Printing Ox, has hooked us up with some t-shirts I designed that we're planning to launch later this summer. If you want to support the show, go ahead and pre-order one of the shirts. It has the Creative Chapel logo on the front, and on the back it says you were made to create, with the scripture of Revelation 4.11 underneath. You might even recognize the design from our backdrop here at the studio. If you'd like to pre-order a shirt, visit the link in our description. And if you have any t-shirt needs for your church, business, or event, make sure to hit up my buddy Forrest at the PrintingOx. He does everything with quality and exemplifies the Creative Chapel spirit. Visit his link in the description as well. Alright, back to the show. And ⁓ you know, I think there's definitely room for like a sad Christmas movie as well. Like ⁓ Steve Clack is very popular for that, you know, so. Yep. Yeah.

speaker-1: It can be done.

speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ and so kinda like switching gears into those darker tones, you know, going from talking about ⁓ you know, Saint Nick to ⁓ you know, we we've kinda like have dropped ⁓ shooting hero heroin into the mix a little bit, but ⁓ I'd love to talk about what you're currently working on, which I think is really cool and very ambitious with The Days Are Evil and making a a trilogy ⁓ around such a ⁓ heavy subject matter. And I think it's it's important for for Christians to experience. And so I'd love for you to to expound on it and talk about it more.

speaker-1: Yeah, thank you. So The Days Are Evil is like one of those films I said up earlier in our conversation that I felt a burden to make and it's a been a burden for a long time. ⁓ since seminary. I wrote in one of those independent studies in seminary, I wrote the first draft of The Days Are Evil. And it's a suicide prevention film. There's three films on the subject and the reason why there's three films is because suicide is so complex and so prevalent. that I didn't feel like I could tackle the topic in one film. And I certainly can't tackle the topic in three films, but I can show different perspectives in three films and and say more. ⁓ and I've lost I've lost, you know, I made the opioid epidemic film, ⁓ shooting heroin because I attend a lot of my high school friends funerals for heroin overdoses and other overdoses. and I have attended a lot of suicide ⁓ funerals and you know suicide is such a prevalent topic and it is also very preventable. ⁓ it doesn't seem like it's preventable but it it is. ⁓ and so we just like through these films and what I've wanted to do since I wrote that first draft of The Days Are Evil in Seminary is to just give hope to people who have no hope. To give people a reason to live another day, to give people a reason to feel like there's a purpose for them staying here. And I know I've have been in a situation in my life, ⁓ multiple times where I felt like I needed that hope and that reason. And I feel like it's a topic I can personally speak on and a topic I've wrestled with. ⁓ and that I know a lot of people who have wrestled with and sadly it affects so many people. ⁓ and the first script, you know, The Days Are Evil is about a pastor who loses his job, he loses his, you know, sense of identity, especially as a pastor, being a holy man, and he gets forced into sabbatical before, you know, being threatened to be fired for his own pride and arrogance and other issues. And so he is forced to reckon with near the end, you know, in and later in his life what do I do with the time I have? How do I spend the days well? And it's such an interesting verse in Ephesians chapter five, I think verse sixteen, ⁓ where it the apostle Paul writes, like be wise with how you spend your days, because the days are evil. And you know, whenever I first read that, you know, probably at Bible school and have reread it numerous times since and wrestled with it and heard sermons on it, It's a great admonition because it feels like you know, individual it feels like the the y the the days feel short and they can be evil, but the years can feel long. But if you don't spend your days well, ⁓ you know, ⁓ it feels like time can be evil and you can misuse your time and you can get lost in how you're spending your time and the purpose of your life. And so it's a it's a big contemplative film, it's a heavy film, it's an R-rated movie, and it's about this pastor that is forced to reconcile with how he's going to spend his days, whether he has anyone watching him and he can be praised in the pulpit, or whether he's alone and just is an absent father and husband. And the other big storyline throughout all three of these films is that they're ⁓ they have two children, a son and an older daughter, and they're Daughter passed away ten years before the events of this film take place from suicide. And so it's a topic that has been in the family and often does run in families. and so the brother is struggling with depression and suicidal ideation. And so the second film is called Rest, and it is about a younger person's perspective about dealing with growing up in a world that is very digital, very fast-paced, very superficial, and how he cannot find his footing in a world that is constantly moving. And how he feels like he is almost he that that his fate is his sister's fate and that he can escape the same ending as his sister. And and so that film is called Rest because I think one of the greatest gifts a Christian can benefit from in this life is having that peace that surpasses all understanding. ⁓ but we don't often remember or take advantage of that fruit. And so it's about Andrew finding peace in the midst of the chaos of his mind, his heart, his soul, and also in the world world in which he grew up in. and then the final film, which is another script that I started writing in seminary. I didn't you know, rest is something I wrote later in life and is more ⁓ I'd say personal, autobiographical. but ⁓ God is Beautiful, the final film is about the wife's perspective. and she grew up as a pastor's kid. Her dad was a pastor, then she married a pastor, and she always was taught what to do to be loved, in more of a legalistic sense, ⁓ in a very law, not grace, childhood. And whenever her husband loses his job, she goes on her own journey to rediscover the the the real truth and the beauty and grace of Christianity without all the roles that we make up and add on top of ⁓ the Old and New Testament. ⁓ and so it's about her rediscovering God and that God loves her despite how good or bad she is. And it's also about her because she loses her sense of security whenever her husband and her, you know, provider loses his job, but she f loses her sense of security, a little bit of sense of her character and who she is, and so she finds her security and her comfort in God and not in earthly things, even good things like a husband. So it's it's a wild, wild, wild trilogy. It feels the most closest thing to Generational Sins that I've done since Generational Sins. And we've filmed the first movie already back in April. and filmed it in its entirety. It's also the longest scripts I've ever filmed. Like the first script, Days are Evil, was a hundred and twenty-eight pages. And most of my scripts are like ninety-three, ninety-five pages. And now Goddess Beautiful script is finalized ⁓ and being sent out to the cast and scheduled and ⁓ locations. And then Rest is in its like fifth draft and I hope to have it finalized here soon because we are filming both these movies ⁓ this year.

speaker-0: Mm. Nice. Well I'm I'm it's so cool to see your updates ⁓ and following along on social media. ⁓ and I'm super excited to to watch The Days Are Evil and and work through that trilogy. ⁓ definitely will have the the Kleenex nearby 'cause I'm sure I'll be emotional through it. Yeah.

speaker-1: They're potent. There was a lot of tears on set. It was a it was a crazy set, but it was good. Yeah.

speaker-0: Yeah, I can imagine. ⁓ And so as as a Christian in the film industry, ⁓ you know, I I think people just naturally think that ⁓ you know, Hollywood is is raging against Christianity and and from most blockbusters or even like hit series like For some reason I've been getting a lot of content about the boys lately, and I'm very interested in that show's commentary, but the content of it I'm not a fan of. ⁓ so I I feel like the audience would be curious into how you have found creative confidence ⁓ as a Christian in the film industry. ⁓ and you know I you're you're operating at a in a lane that ⁓ is different than necessarily like the top Marvel movies, but it's still the film industry nonetheless and and it has some challenges to it. And so I'm curious into ⁓ how you've found creative confidence in in there.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's it's a great question. I've been asked this question before. Even one of my ⁓ artists, you know, in the ⁓ rap world, John Rubin, who we both know, yep, and he's performing at Heart of Faith Fest. ⁓ Yeah, me too. And I love John Rubin. You know, I s I actually started listening to him before conversion and I love how real and honest his lyrics are. But he asked me, like, you know, like how do you how do you do this, like, with hard faith? Because it's like, you obviously your films don't really fit in the faith-based narrative and they're little bit too Christian for the traditional, you know, Hollywood narrative. And I said to John, and I'll answer you this way, is that you know, whenever I converted to Christianity, it's like I already knew that I want to make movies. But I when I watched these faith-based films, I knew I couldn't make those. And so it was either never talk about God, never talk about the thing that mattered to me most, or talk about him in a world in which is the world in which we all live in, and be honest about it. Or just or just not make any films about him at all. And so that was never an option for me. I was gonna make movies about God and I was gonna be honest about how the world and how awful we all really are. So I've just been putting one foot in front of the other And and sometimes that foot is in the valley and sometimes that foot is getting out of the valley. And I think that's just the Christian walk. And I can't affirm whether I'm on the right or wrong or right path or on whether or not the critics or audiences or my bank account loves what I'm making. Or else that would be health and wealth prosperity. ⁓ but also too I just you know, Taylor Sheridan, you know, the incredible creator of Yellowstone and is making a new show in nine different platforms. That's kind of my philosophy too, is that, you know, even like with doing Hard Faith Film Festival, we've only been doing it for four years. The first year I was pretty anxious that we may not have any other submissions because I didn't know how many other people were making hard faith films. Well now we've been doing it for four years and we get hundreds and sometimes thousands of submissions and there's a lot of people who like the same kind of movies that I like and see the world and even have a similar faith that I do. There's differences and nuances, but you know, I I just keep putting one foot in front of the other. And then like with Days Are Evil, we have had a wonderful, beautiful reception ⁓ of encouragement from people wanting films on this topic, even more so than the Opi epidemic. and, you know, I just I just keep making films without second guessing myself too much or You know, I I think that's just like the faith element. That's the hard faith element. Sometimes it's not thinking it or overthinking it or second guessing it too much. It's just doing it. ⁓ and like life is super short and super fragile and I have a calling and a burden that keeps me up. to make these movies and tell these stories. And so I gotta I have to be faithful to that burden and get it done. Yeah. And I and I just can't second guess it too much. I just have to do it to the best of my ability and then move on to the next burden.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's ⁓ super powerful and and helpful to artists of a variety of mediums of just to you know, create what's on your heart that God has given you vision into and vision for, ⁓ and trust that there you know, it might not be a huge audience but there'll be somebody that will connect with it. ⁓ and and that one person is is you know, impactful to the heart in a different way than, you know, a plethora of of people seeing it but you know when someone connects with your art in that way, ⁓ it's it's on a deep level. ⁓ and so I think I think artists can walk away of of any medium being ⁓ having value in that in that sentiment. ⁓ as we wrap out the show, ⁓ there's I'm still figuring out these two questions that I'm I'm asking all the guests at the end of the show, but The one of two questions is what is inspiring you right now? What are you watching? What are you listening to? What are you seeing that ⁓ is inspiring you and giving you life ⁓ in ⁓ towards creative ⁓ endeavors, towards your faith, anything in between?

speaker-1: Hmm. Heh heh heh. You know, it sucks to say it, but ⁓ Well I first I'll say the answer that sounds better. And I'll say I've been watching so, you know, like whenever I'm doing a topical film, like ⁓ a film on suicide prevention. I watch exhaustively everything anyone has ever done on the subject. So all ⁓ any film that has ever dealt with loss of someone who has taken their life ⁓ who's died by suicide. I've I've I so I've watched so many movies. And e any films that kind of even deal with just self-destructive patterns or loss or you know, tones of films I'm making. Like You know, rest, I think a comparable film for how that film might feel, depending on how we shoot it, is Rec Room for a Dream, which I'm very thankful for that crazy R rated movie because I watched it when I was in high school and I'm really glad I did because I didn't do hard drugs, so it's a very great preventative anti drug film if you watch that movie. I almost feel like they should prescribe it to high schoolers or middle schoolers now. But ⁓ and so I've been watching Constantly, like ongoing, ⁓ these really sad, heavy, you know, beautiful boy, ordinary people. These these real the you know, the big chill, these really, really sad, heavy films. ⁓ because I just want to be sure that I'm honoring the topic well and ⁓ that I am that that I'm like building on like stepping on the shoulders of greats of people who have already tackled this topic well and that I'm hopefully sta standing on their shoulders so I can add something new to the conversation. And then I think where I also get more other inspiration, which I was gonna first say, which is very ⁓ shameful to say, is sometimes like I've really curated my algorithm on Instagram stories and reels. And I get some really great inspirational Reels on Instagram stories. ⁓ or or whatever it's called. Reels. I think it is, not stories. But and so my algorithm is very precise and I tell it every time I don't like a video. And there are often like quotes or poems or literature. And it's set to music and moving images and sometimes it's even movie scenes. And that's not the way you should watch a movie. But when you're falling asleep or waking up or just stuck on trying to write the next scene. I do find inspiration there. and then it often reminds me of like authors or movies ⁓ or music that I haven't read in a while that stimulates for me like creative energy.

speaker-0: Yeah. Nice. That's awesome. ⁓ yeah, fine tuning the algorithm is a bit hard, ⁓ but Yeah. Yeah, you can definitely master it. ⁓ I hate I hate when it just gives me videos that like I don't I don't follow the creator on my homepage. ⁓ yeah. That's always like tedious to me. That I always have to like snooze that for thirty days, but ⁓ Totally. And so the the last question I think I'm gonna run with this and wanna see how th this does.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: ⁓ it's kind of a funny question to end out a a show talking about some heavy subject matters, but if you were a vegetable on veggie tails, what veggie what vegetable would you be? I don't even know what I would say with this yet.

speaker-1: That'd be Larry the Cucumber with a little bit more ⁓ heaviness, darkness, but I really like Larry. And he makes really great silly songs.

speaker-0: Nice. Yeah, that's ⁓ definitely, you know, an OG for for ⁓ Christian media. I don't know if you've read Me, Myself, and Bob by Phil Visher, but I it's

speaker-1: My sister has. She said it's it's good.

speaker-0: As as a filmmaker, like you know, I feel like we don't approach animation like that always. I like thinking about ⁓ especially computer animation films as you know what he was making films, but like he is talking about it through the the lens of a filmmaker, which is really refreshing. ⁓ so I highly encourage that book, ⁓ for anyone who's a Christian creative, but especially if you're a a Christian filmmaker out there, ⁓ I think it's great.

speaker-1: I'm gonna add it to my audible.

speaker-0: Yeah, that'd be good. Yeah. Well cool, thank you so much for being on the show. ⁓ super excited for what you have down the pipeline and ⁓ and Hard Faith Film Festival coming up. ⁓ if you're a Christian creative of any kind, I suggest going to Hard Faith Film Festival. But especially if you're a Christian, whether you're submitting a film or not, just get there, get in the room. ⁓ it's such a a great place to be in collaborative space of people who are like minded and ⁓ you see some really great work there. So ⁓ definitely encourage it. Happening when's it when's it happening?

speaker-1: June twenty-fifth through the twenty eighth in Pasadena, California. It's a Thursday through a Sunday and it's taking place at Lake Avenue Church. You can find out all the information, tickets, where to stay, where to fly into, and more at HardFaithfest.com or our main page, hardfaith.org.

speaker-0: Great. Awesome. Well Spencer, thank you so much for being on the show and ⁓ we look forward to having you again sometime.

speaker-1: Thank you, Chris. Thanks for having me on the show. Great to see you.

speaker-0: Yeah, great see you too. Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel Podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, this is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.