The Five-Fold Ministry and Art: What We're Getting Wrong

Chris McEachran: Is art and creativity solely a tool for evangelism? Are we missing something within the five-fold ministry and how that applies to art and creativity? Those questions and more will be discussed in this episode. Welcome to Creative Chapel, a podcast exploring the vast landscape of Christian artistry across denominations and disciplinary mediums. Creative Chapel is building a space where saints can gather and celebrate their walk with Christ with their God given gifting, encouraging each other in their faith and their craft. Creative Chapel is the place for inspiration, curation, and revelation. Welcome to another episode of Creative Chapel. I am your host, Chris Mack, and I am experimenting once again with doing a solo show. I hope that this is something that you're enjoying, something that you're liking. I'd love your feedback on these. If you liked the last one, ⁓ typically it's a little bit easier just to hang out with a guest and ask them questions and have a conversation. It's a little bit harder to just jot down some thoughts I've been having and just talk to the camera. But it's it's cool that it's just me and you. Happy to be here. Feels like a little intimate. And so with that, I'll go ahead and hop into what this episode is all about. And that is exploring the fivefold ministry and art. Much is said about art being an evangelistic tool and it's come from both camps. The the camps of the ⁓ utilitarian pragmatic type that is just looking for a means to an end, concerned about the bottom line, just wants to get butts and pews and get the gospel out there. and from the camp of the actual Christian artist or the artist that is Christian, even though that ⁓ dynamic either way you're Christian and you're making art. So I I feel like that label is just ⁓ unnecessary at this point on either side. But anyways, from both of those camps, from the person who just wants to use it as a tool and the person who is a creative artist, you hear things that ⁓ display art simply as a tool for evangelism. They'll say things like art is the the new apologetic or the best apologetic, or they'll say things like creativity is the church's Trojan horse for the gospel. I feel like that misses two things. I think that misses out on the value of art and it also misses out on a solid analysis of the fivefold ministry. And so just to dive into the first part of that, of art being an evangelistic tool, ⁓ it being the new apologetic, it being a Trojan horse for the gospel. ⁓ first of all, that feels kind of icky to say, ⁓ Trojan horse for the gospel. I I came across that from a post from an artist that I like, and it just kind of left me feeling a little weird. But Especially when thinking about apologetics, I don't think art is strictly an argument or a tool to defend a position. I think it can be, but I don't think it it is strictly. And I think oftentimes it's there's a pressure for it to be a a tool and a ⁓ argument to defend our position and defend the faith. When that happens, I often feel like it just becomes inauthentic. That it feels like ⁓ an artist set out to create something specific and then they felt the pressure to shoehorn in ⁓ something about the gospel or something about their their faith into a work that didn't really organically have it, even though the themes could be ⁓ found in scripture. Or it is authentic and it just kinda doesn't connect. Like the the audience sees it for what it is is is either pandering or propaganda. And it just feels like not ⁓ a piece that people want to revisit. A piece that really connects with people. ⁓ and sometimes those pieces do and that's fine. But I feel like this mindset of art being a tool art being ⁓ an apologetic. I feel like it puts pressure on the creative to explain the full gospel or a a deep systematic theology within the limited confines of a specific medium. Some mediums are way more flexible that could express things. You know, I think of just icons in general, icons display a lot of ⁓ deeply doctrinal and theological ⁓ thoughts that help orient people into the liturgy and the service or music. I think music has a lot of flexibility that it can be ⁓ both overt and ⁓ it can be subtle and so there's a lot of will room to lay out your thoughts ⁓ and it connect with an audience. On the film side though, there are kind of restrictions on narrative storytelling. That ⁓ there are certain storytelling techniques that, if ignored, create a poor story. And this also applies into those other mediums as well. ⁓ you know, there are people who probably don't always appreciate when Christian artists do songs that don't always directly touch on their faith. But ultimately, I think this pressure, again, just creates an inauthentic experience for both the creator and for the audience. And so I want to read you a quote from one of my favorites, Francis Schaefer, Art in the Bible. ⁓ I've talked about this book in the past a lot. ⁓ I was just flipping through it and I I came across this quote, and I think it's ⁓ relevant to this conversation. The nature of art, the one that I think is right, the one that really produces great art and the possibility of great art, is that the artist makes a body of work and this body of work shows his worldview. I'll read it again. The nature of art, the one that I think is right, the one that really produces great art and the possibility of great art, is the artist makes a body of work and this body of work shows his worldview. I think oftentimes we forget what the Apostle Paul says in First Corinthians three, six. ⁓ this is referencing him and Apollos, where there are disciples saying or there are Christians saying that they are disciples of Apollos or disciples or followers of Paul, and Paul is saying, I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. And with that being said, I think we forget that evangelism is a process. That this is the process of growth, that ⁓ there is a planting, that there is a watering, and God bringing the increase, that God is bringing the growth. And so when we view art as this tool for evangelism, we're putting pressure on it to deliver on expressing the gospel and expressing a solid theology. Like I can think back to the movie K-pop Demon Hunter. Admittedly, a movie I have not seen yet, but I've heard great things. And I've heard a lot of great things from Christians and non-Christians alike. And I can remember people also having a problem with the movie because saying it's not a Christian movie, don't go see it, because it doesn't share the gospel. It doesn't mention Jesus. And so there's no way it can be a Christian movie or be edifying to you because it doesn't share the gospel. And so that kind of pressure I feel like takes away the fact that evangelism is a process that maybe K-pop Demon Hunter is planting a seed for people, maybe it is edifying people, and people are able to see something within that story that resonates with their faith or resonates with their journey onto faith. And again, I haven't seen the movie, so I really can't bet ⁓ that opinion or the opinion that it's good and very Christian. But there's a lot of trusted people out there that I've seen it, that I trust their opinion into curating and critiquing art. And from what I've seen, checks those boxes. Thanks for being an early listener of the Creative Chapel podcast. As a new show, it means so much that you're here. Please like, subscribe, and download our episodes to keep the momentum going. And share it with a friend who could use encouragement in their creative journey. Alright. Back to the show. And so within the process of evangelism, you know, I think our seed can be a seed. It doesn't have to be a tree right out the gate. And I think our watering can be a watering of any sort. It could be just a sprinkle, a misting, it can be ⁓ a consistent misting. It doesn't have to be a waterfall to ultimately get growth immediately. And so if you feel the pressure to like, ⁓ I have to make sure there's a gospel message in my story. I have to make sure there's a gospel message in my song. Every single song or in my paintings, I have to make sure that the gospel is represented or that like Jesus' face is somewhere in there. Even though I'm doing a still life of flowers, I think you can take a breath and settle into what Francis Schaeffer is saying, in that your whole body of work can show the vast Christian experience. Your whole body of work can can demonstrate what the Christian life is like. And that all the themes and all the ideas and all the ⁓ deeply theological things that we wrestle with can be expressed individually in your work. And when we look at Jesus's storytelling of the parables, that's what he's doing. He is telling different stories about what the kingdom of heaven is like, of the relationship of the Father to the world, of the relationship of the Father to the Kingdom of Israel, of Jesus himself, how he's engaging with the world. And so Jesus' whole body of work with the parables is illustrating a worldview. And so I think creatives have a freedom to Let the various themes that they want to wrestle with that stem from a life of faith, let those themes breathe in individual work so that your body of work as a whole shows your worldview. And when we reduce our creative work into this process and this machine that needs to express A singular idea and vision and evangelism and have a altar call at the end of it, it ultimately just becomes a a piece that doesn't live up to its potential. And so when we think about evangelism, we have solely viewed art and creativity through an evangelistic lens, but have neglected the four other lenses. And so this is what Paul says in Ephesians 4 11. He is the one who gave these gifts to the church. He being Jesus. Jesus is the one who gave these gifts to the church. The apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ, until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature and full grown in the Lord, measuring up to the full stature of Christ. So we have Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Those are the fivefold ministry. Those are the ones, those are the offices that God has gifted the church. And unfortunately, we don't really see that in church structure or hierarchy today. Feel a certain way about that. And on top of that, we've reduced the fivefold ministry into a simple Personality test that you can take online, which I I think is a great disservice to these offices in general and the Holy Spirit. We'll try to map our personality and our our talents and our giftings to these individual offices of of ministry. But the reality is the Holy Spirit could call you to be any one of those. Despite your personality, despite your giftings. You might feel like your giftings are in one area, but the Holy Spirit's call might very well have you operating somewhere else. And I just don't think how we view these spiritual gifts and offices How we view them today is not how they were intended to be viewed. Like just because one has giftings and business doesn't mean that they're automatically called to be apostolic. Or just because you are artistic and creative doesn't mean that you're automatically going to be an evangelist. I do think there's an element where you can function in these offices, but at the end of the day, these are offices for the church. And you'll notice that artists and creative. Are not an office in the church. They might be a church position, for sure, in today's modern expression of faith. But if you feel like you haven't been called to be an evangelist, I don't think you have to feel the pressure to be an evangelist with your art. I mean, what what would it look like if an artist were called to be an apostle? What would it look like if an artist was called to be a prophet? What would it look like if an artist was called to be a pastor or a teacher? How would that apostle or prophet or teacher or pastor use their creative giftings? How would they view their abilities and how to utilize those in the position that the Holy Spirit has placed them in? When we strictly view arts and creativity through the lens of evangelism, I think we're missing out on the ability to just minister to the brethren. We're missing out on the ability to minister to those in the church who need their souls ministered to. Like, is it possible for an artwork to be pastoral? Is it possible for an artwork to be apostolic? Is it possible for an artwork to be prophetic? I definitely think an artwork can be prophetic if we really look at the prophets of the old testament, they're doing crazy art stuff all the time. They're doing street performances, they're doing illustrations, they're building things and making things to express what God has instructed them to say. And so furthermore, I think we can just take the pressure off off ourselves from feeling the need to fit in the box of evangelism with our artistic giftings. I think we reduce ourselves. I think we Have a tendency to not reach the potential of a work because we're trying to fit into a box. And we miss the opportunity to minister to someone in a specific. If you're someone who loves apparel that shows your creative side while sharing your faith, I've just the thing for you. Our sponsor, the Printing Ox, has hooked us up with some t-shirts I designed that we're planning to launch later this summer. If you want to support the show, go ahead and pre-order one of the shirts. It has the Creative Chapel logo on the front, and on the back it says you were made to create, with the scripture of Revelation 4.11 underneath. You might even recognize the design from our backdrop here at the studio. If you'd like to pre-order a shirt, visit the link in our description. And if you have any t-shirt needs for your church, business, or event, make sure to hit up my buddy Forrest at the PrintingOx. He does everything with quality and exemplifies the Creative Chapel spirit. Visit his link in the description as well. Alright, back to the show. Don't get me wrong, hearing the gospel will always be beneficial. But at certain stages of my faith, I have a good understanding of the gospel that Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God. He came down from heaven and walked among us and walked with his disciples, and he ultimately went to the cross and was crucified on behalf of Of me and the rest of humanity to be the sacrifice and atonement for my sins. And they buried him in the tomb. And then in three days later, he rose from the grave and he told his disciples to spread that message. And that is the gospel. Right? If I was to just boom, come compress it down to just that being the gospel. Again, always going to be a blessing in some way, shape, or form. But there are other things that I'm working through as an individual. In my faith, in my life, that I need ministry unto. And likewise, other audience members need ministry. Maybe someone's dealing with anger. Maybe someone's dealing with depression or anxiety or lust or ⁓ family or they just need a laugh or whatever. Christian audiences deserve to be ministered unto just as much as non Christians need evangelistic. Attention. Just as much as non-Christians need evangelistic attention. There are there are often times when I'm listening to Christian music or or watching a film or looking at an artwork and it's ministering to me where I'm at now. Where I'm secure in my faith, secure in my relationship with Jesus, but I'm wrestling with certain things or I'm just trying to understand. Or maybe I'm even on the mountaintops and and life is good. I'm able to ⁓ just be blessed by a work that makes me feel good. Last time I did one of these solo episodes, I mentioned Forrest Frank's Dawn Patrol. It's just a vibey album that I really like and it it encourages me. It it makes me think about being grateful. That's not exactly explicitly a part of sharing the gospel, right? Like if I was on the street corner and proclaiming Jesus, ⁓ I can express my gratitude. But I could also express the gospel without ever mentioning gratitude. And so ultimately when we view creative work strictly through the lens of evangelism, I think we're missing an aspect of just ministering to those in the body and ministering and ministering to ourselves as the creator and the maker of a work, of a piece. I think that's super important. I think it's it's sometimes therapy to make something. And that there's something on your heart and mind that you just gotta get out of you. And once it's out of you, you just feel lighter. And that work, whether it is seen by hundreds or it's seen by no one, is valuable. It has value. And also creating strictly for the reason of evangelism misses out on the portion of creating for an audience of one. Admittedly, as a filmmaker, it's really, really tough to justify making a video or a movie for an audience of one. ⁓ there's so much resources that go into it, so many so many people that ⁓ need to be paid to do video work. It's kind of hard for me to know how that is. And I think that's a subject for another solo pod in the future. But for an illustrator or a songwriter or ⁓ a painter To create a peace that's like, I'm not going to share this with anyone. This is strictly for God. Where does the evangelistic tool come into that? How can you evangelize if you're going to just keep something for God? And so when we look at the fivefold ministry, when we look at the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, and the teachers. I think we we could potentially map ourselves to one of those, that we could see those kind of things within us. But also I think there's an element to this that these are specific callings to operate in your church and that maybe only five people are actually operating in this in your church. And maybe that you're just called to be an artist. You're called to be intimate with God. And let that intimacy flow out of you into your body of work, sharing your world view in individual pieces. I think that could be a reality. Obviously you pray on it. Do your due diligence to seek the Lord and see what's going on. But if you feel like you've been kind of boxed in and you've felt this pressure, I just want to encourage you that your work matters, if it matters to you. And it matters to others and it matters to God. And if you feel like it's ministering to you and you see it ministering to others, that's valuable. Even if it's not exactly sharing the full gospel. I believe that is planting a seed or watering a seed and that God will bring the growth. And I pray that your work continues to plant seeds and to water seeds. And that it is a stop on the journey into someone's ⁓ Calling. Whether they're new to faith, whether they're in the faith, regardless, I hope your art ministers to someone. I think that's a better way of viewing art. It's less as evangelism and more as just ministry. This is a this is my work ministering unto someone. Someone's need, someone's hurt, someone's joy, blessing somebody. And so that kind of wraps up my thoughts. I've been thinking about this for a long time. ⁓ Art and the Fivefold Ministry. ⁓ these were some unfiltered thoughts and unstructured thoughts on it. I definitely want to do a more structured study and presentation on it in the future. So if you liked it, ⁓ I hope you let me know. If you have any thoughts on it, I'd love to hear it. If you have any challenges to it, feel free to put that in the comments as well. ⁓ whatever helps the body grow, including me, including you, including the others watching this. And so typically on the podcast I ask a guest what they're inspired by. and so I'd like to leave you with some ⁓ works that I have been enjoying lately. Keith just released a song with Chance the Rapper. That's pretty dope. really enjoying that. It's called You Can Always Come Back Home, I think. ⁓ really good song. Pretty cool that he got Chance the Rapper on there. ⁓ Chance is kinda like in and out of Christian spaces a lot. ⁓ kind of like Justin Bieber in the mix there. But it's really good song. Really like that. Would really recommend it. I'm always loving Josh Nadeau's stuff. I would r really love to get Josh Nadeau on the podcast of Sword and Pencil. ⁓ his writings are just super cool. His his artwork is super cool. Such a a deep thinker, ⁓ and someone who I feel like just always has Really cool work. So if you don't know Sword and Pencil, I would definitely check him out, ⁓ Josh Nadeau. And so with those two recommendations to curate your next listen or next watcher read, ⁓ I'm gonna go ahead and sign off. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments. Please share ⁓ if this encouraged you, if this challenged you, if there's anything in here that you feel like is underbaked, love to hear it. I w I want to grow in ⁓ not be just in an echo chamber of myself, my own thoughts. And obviously I'm trying to check things with the Holy Spirit. So ⁓ yeah, I would love to hear your perspective in the comments. If there's anyone that you would love to see on the show, I hope that you comment them and tag them. ⁓ I'm always on the lookout for new talent, new voices. So if you are coming across someone new that you're like, ⁓ this would be a dope person to hear on the show, tag them in the comments. I want to see them and I want to learn about them. Also, if you're creating anything, feel free to send ⁓ the Creative Chapel Instagram account a DM on what your latest project is. I'd love to check it out. ⁓ spend some time connecting with the audience and and really building a community. So if you got something in the works, I'd love to see it. Send us a DM and ⁓ who knows, maybe we'll feature it on the show and and do a screenshot of what you're working on or a recording or whatever. So Alright, with that, I pray that you just stay creative and that the Holy Spirit continues to usher you into maturity in Christ. Thanks for watching this episode of the Creative Chapel podcast. If you enjoyed it, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow along to stay up to date on more episodes. We're shooting out of Communion Church in San Diego, California. If you're looking for a great church to be a part of, this is the place to be. Stay faithful, stay creative, and I'll see you in the next episode.