Talking Youth Ministry with Erik Havumaki - ep. 42

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the Unison Church Podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are continuing our series that we've yet to have a consecutive episode for We're in this series where I'm talking to some of my Youth pastor friends and we've just we've like done an episode here and then done two episodes and then another one and then a few but This is this is how it goes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm here with my friend Eric and We meet together.

[SPEAKER_02]: How often do we meet together?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know a few few months

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe everything less than what I would say that we do because right in my mind we mean more often, but probably let's go quarterly

[SPEAKER_01]: Quarterly.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's that sounds generous.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's generous generous.

[SPEAKER_01]: Quarterly quarterly visits.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so yeah, we I mean we've known each other for a long time But then like colleagues, I guess since I started doing youth ministry So that's been cool, but you were just starting doing youth ministry when I was a teenager.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no Yeah, that does line up years ago that does line up Tell us about how you got involved with that

[SPEAKER_01]: So as I guess any good small church, the person who was doing it was not going to be doing it anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they needed somebody to step in and I had, it was probably a year and a half into being married and so they approached my wife and I and asked if we would be interested in taking over the youth ministry that fall.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we thought about it,

[SPEAKER_01]: a week or two of youth group, and ultimately there was no glaring reason not to, and there was a need in the church, and they asked us to do it, and so we took it on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a small little group of few kids, and it was sort of, that probably gets into a lot of other things, but I didn't, at that point in my life, I honestly hadn't really

[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't even say I really led a Bible study.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was part of Bible studies, but never really led one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a little, I was sort of forced into this in that regard.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it was, it was good, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's how we started.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And here you are.

[SPEAKER_01]: And here I am, like a while after 17 years later.

[SPEAKER_01]: 17 years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I have since led a Bible study.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's positive.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I feel like, so I met you on the strip that we did with Liberty.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like a winter retreat of some kind, somewhere in New York when I was in middle school.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you led at least one of the discussions.

[SPEAKER_02]: You weren't the guy yet, though.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you think you were like the helper.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was probably during that transition that you're referring to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you mentioned this last time and I don't have a memory of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but it was I mean it was a long time ago and for me it was like my I think it was my first or second winter retreat Which is why I remember it because I was like that was like a big deal at the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, right But I don't really remember much of the trip either.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just remember that we did it with liberty.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's entirely

[SPEAKER_02]: plausible.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I might have not talked to you in a single time on the trip.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just was like a where like, oh, those are the youth leaders over there, you know, doing the youth leader things doing youth leader things exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: How'd you get involved in the church in the first place?

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so the, yeah, the 17 years is all at the same church.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, really I had known.

[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up as a friends with the pastor's kids and the church had started.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was over near my house and met the pastor's kids through some other mutual friends and you know, their midweek meeting, the church I was going to was quite small and didn't really have any other kids there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the midweek group I would go over to this church, be part of the youth group there on Wednesday nights.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I did that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And over the years, I was probably from, I'd say around like 15, I started doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Fast forward, you know, I'm good friends with the pastor's kids there, I'm at the church often for different things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And God older ended up going to, I don't wanna say bouncing around a few different churches.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess probably in my later teen years, I left the church that my family was going to because I was kind of ready to be out of there,

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I particularly landed anywhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was in church every Sunday, and I was involved in different groups and young adult groups and things like that, but I never really particularly had a church that I could say like, all that was my church.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I bounced around for a little bit doing that, and then probably around 20,

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're on like 20, 21, I kind of landed at a church, was there for maybe a little older than that, 22 or so, I landed at a church and really was committed there by girlfriend at the time, now wife, we were there together and then probably, I guess the church was a little further away, we didn't really know many people there, we didn't, there was a fine church,

[SPEAKER_01]: We just didn't have like people there and like we found ourselves almost every week.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'd leave there, drive back up to Liberty where we're going, we'd be there, and go see our friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so as we were getting closer, getting married, a few months before we got married, we were kind of like, you know what, like, why are we doing this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we might as well just go to the place where we are anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: So basically since we had probably early,

[SPEAKER_01]: spring of 08.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's where we landed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've been there ever since.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I ended up there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Nice.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you were like, you got there, but they kind of knew you up into that point, but you were in the youth mystery pretty quick after you decided to stay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So because I had been in the youth group there and involved and as I was getting older, they the people who were leading group would often have me

[SPEAKER_01]: you know, they'd invite some of the kids who are like out of youth group but still young to come to different events, do things with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was often at youth events, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And being good friends with the pastor's family, there was at their house all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hell, and everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was, we were always together.

[SPEAKER_01]: And from that, you know, probably because they knew me, they knew my wife and new sort of her from before she knew me.

[SPEAKER_01]: small Christian circles.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were, you know, that was sort of like why they asked us to step in and take over.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they knew you were like not crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or at least they had an opportunity.

[SPEAKER_02]: They had enough information on us at a time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, my first like year or the guy that's doing the youth ministry experience was at a church in college when they didn't know me like, yeah, really at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they knew like a couple months worth of

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was like college time too.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like I mean college kids are like always in flux I feel like anyway, you know, because you're trying to figure it out or whatever Sometimes I look back and I'm like that Was really risky like yeah as a pastor.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would not have done that right, but they did it and it worked out.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's yeah Yeah, you know, I

[SPEAKER_01]: I see those things happen around and I'm similar feelings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I don't know if that's really the best.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, but right, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it charges like they have holes that they need to fill and sometimes they hasten to fill them too quickly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're now not only the youth pastors like what your title is of the church youth pastor, but you're also an elder there, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did that came later?

[SPEAKER_01]: That came later, that was 10, maybe 11 years ago now, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So at the time, there was a need at the church for elders and there were some holes in there that needed some gaps filled.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they had, myself and another guy actually came in at the same time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we stepped into that role.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so that's a unique side of ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm more than just involved in the youth, but also involved there as, I guess, the entire church shepherding.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, doing like some pastoring behind the scenes, some care work, things like that, helping with decisions, stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which is, which has grown in recent years.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it didn't, it started out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna say kind of not needing as much,

[SPEAKER_01]: time, it was sort of like I felt in some ways that I was sort of an elder and name only.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, but it was available and part of conversations and part of decisions that needed to be made.

[SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of the things I'm going to say didn't really need much from me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: In a lot of ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's fair.

[SPEAKER_01]: the pastor who had started the church retired and so the new pastor came in and you know that whole process and in the process of you know leading the church through that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: greatly increased.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd say my role in the church involvement, share from the people on the congregation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I feel like every time we talk, I'm hearing about, you know, people that you're doing visits with or people that you're, you know, walking through some kind of big life thing with.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't really remember that ever not being a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I know also like church transitions are just time consuming.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been, you know,

[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that the frequency of that has definitely increased in recent years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's just the role of the relationship to the people in the congregation, probably age, getting older is helping.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: In some regards, but then also because the pastor had left, there was, I'd been at the church, since, like said since so eight.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was somebody that people knew well, but maybe weren't quite at the level where they were coming to me, but because they were sort of a whole now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: That became a fell on us.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I find too, and I bet you guys have this as well, is there are certain people that you get connected to and they're suddenly like,

[SPEAKER_02]: like your, your people, if something happens with them, it's like they're gonna go to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you're gonna be the one to deal with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: For not that somebody else can't step in and help us well, but the longer you're in a church, the more that list of people grows because they get to know you and you become like the one that they're gonna go to when there's an issue or problem or something that they need.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, as currently, there's five of us elders and you look,

[SPEAKER_01]: in a lot of ways, you know, and naturally sort of people gravitate to different people that they're comfortable with or, you know, for whatever reason, they've sort of latched on to them and so like what you're saying, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: They're sort of these people that you go to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, and so there's, there's pockets of my I can sort of like give him break up the church in my mind and think of like, these people go to this person, these people go to this person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, it gets relayed back and yeah, not that we don't step in and we're not even welcome in,

[SPEAKER_01]: those conversations.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, yeah, as with anything, there's certain people that you click with better than others.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, or you just happen to be in something like, I'm sure if somebody's graduated out of your youth group and they're still in the church, they're looking, they're probably going to go to you most likely because they spent so much time with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and probably by product is also their families.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as I've had a lot of interaction with the families over the years and depending on situations, they faced with, I've been invited

[SPEAKER_01]: that maybe isn't public for everybody in the church, and so right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because of that, they, you know, those relationships tend to kind of grow out of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I've been done it for so many years.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of those people in the church.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, probably a large network.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of alumni people that have since moved out, but... Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Still, they're involved in... Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Part of my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you've been doing youth ministry long enough to have somebody start... Did they start in sixth grade or seventh grade there?

[SPEAKER_02]: Seventh.

[SPEAKER_02]: Seventh.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if it's seven to twelve, you probably had a few of those, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I was thinking back trying to figure out the number, and I think I lost count somewhere of, you know, well over 100, it's just you forget these people and, you know, some you don't forget some very memorable for good and bad reasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But no, you know, a lot of a lot of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, come through those doors.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, covers a lot of history.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have a handful.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a handful of we do like six is like a transition year.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you could do.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could do kids on Sunday.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could group on Wednesday if you want or you could be upstairs in the, you know, the, the, the regular service when you're in sixth grade.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, but like by the time you're seven, like you're getting kicked out of the kid stuff, even six is like two old for some people, because we, it's just one gathering.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, you know, you're in the same class of like a toddler, you know, trying to

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I use it could stuff, but I thought of, you know, somewhere in me, I'd like there to be, you know, maybe a middle school.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, grouping it of itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just more time, more effort.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's all right, not necessarily in a somewhat smaller church, it's not always enough, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, and so yeah, 7th to 12th is already a, it's a big gap.

[SPEAKER_01]: Big one, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, I'm not, I've avoided and kept the wall up at 7th grade because yeah, even 7th graders coming in with

[SPEAKER_01]: 10th, 11th, 12th grader can sometimes be a really big gap and even your approach and things you're talking about or I say even like how you talk about things is just so different and so it's already difficult to when you're speaking to the room and you're teaching something it's like you you don't want to dumb it down so the older kids are feeling bored right but also you don't want to be over the heads of the younger kids so it's it's a tough

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's already tough enough, so I...

[SPEAKER_01]: for all that to say, yeah, we started in seventh grade.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's cool, that's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have a handful of seven to 12ers now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just wanted them, one of them had like, they have like a mom and dad that don't live in the same town.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like, they were living their mom for a while and I didn't see them for maybe like a year or two and they recently started coming back to the church and they're like 20, 20, something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Dude, I feel like, not okay with this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, like, because, you know, you remember I'm from when they were, and she had like not had a gross burden or anything yet, you know, she was like a little, little kid coming in at sixth grade, like right after I started at the church, and it's like, yeah, that's like, that's crazy.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's cool because you got to walk through so many different stages at that point, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think there's, I think I have one,

[SPEAKER_01]: probably two students left that were born before I started, but after that, I've predated all of these kids that are in the room, which is a weird thought.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a long time to, I remember, and it's also a totally different experience of flicking out into the room, and it's like, I remember all these kids being born, so it's just a different,

[SPEAKER_01]: relationship to them right you know my just sort of my role in their life and you know now I'm into the role of You know my daughters in the in youth group of this this year and You know there's a I'm now I'm now her like friends All right The other kids that are her age that are her friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like you know, I'm her friends dad right right where's before I was that like half step between

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: The parents and the students.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's just a different experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in a different time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's, it's, so it's, it's always as we age and change approaches change and ministry changes and right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And all that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're saying you don't do everything now the same way you did at 17 years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely not.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you, it's, uh,

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I sometimes look back and I find stuff I've done because I'm a hoarder, so I keep all my files of stuff I've done over the last couple of years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I can look back to old, I'm gonna say lessons and air quotes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, stuff and I'm just like, man, this is a trotace.

[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just like history of how you grow as a communicator, you know, as you're teaching, and, you know, okay, you're young, you know,

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't go to seminary or anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this was just kind of thrown into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the approach of like, how I've grown over the years is, as I look back over the material and stuff, I'm like, oh man, this is, if you could go back.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I would do differently, but not that anything was terribly wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was just

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's fair.

[SPEAKER_02]: My go-to was always, especially when I first got and still a little bit to this day, especially when I first became like full time in the church I'm at now.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like,

[SPEAKER_02]: I always felt the need to like get really deep into anything, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I was doing a lot of like making my own curriculum and stuff like that and going in and, you know, we're going to talk about like some like the deep stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at the time, two, my youth group is older.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I had like a mostly high schoolers when I first started, which is not the case now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now I have mostly middle schoolers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so it's like,

[SPEAKER_02]: my my looking back was like why did you spend so much time you know on on all that stuff and let's try to have like a 40 minute conversation that's like it's really deep and trying to bring that out I mean it's it could be cool in some context but it was like too much now we read like the same passage of scripture for six weeks in a row and you know and have like very

[SPEAKER_02]: surface level, but hopefully, encouraging conversations that encourage maybe future conversations, one-on-one, kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like so different than how it first started.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's true, probably.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I guess you just career as an overarching term right, but experience gives you wisdom and new eyes to be able to see what works, what doesn't work, especially when you're younger and you're first starting out,

[SPEAKER_01]: want to do and how they're going to respond, like probably the biggest thing gets in the way and for me I'd say going back in the earlier years of youth ministry as man I had this idea in my mind of how it was and event something was going to play out and it didn't and I found I was sort of up

[SPEAKER_01]: internal fight against like this what I wanted it to be and what it wasn't and I was sort of like upset that it wasn't right and I would say it was like frustrated by it sure and I think over the years and I don't maybe was around the time just conversations with my wife and so she was just like you know it really your focus the focus needs to be on the kids and if they're not at the point you know let's say I don't know you think you're gonna have this great conversation because of

[SPEAKER_01]: your questions that you've really worked on, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And they tank or you go somewhere and they're gonna be really into this thing and they're not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, you really, you really do need to sort of, I don't know if it's a cater to them, but like, if somebody doesn't see a value in something, instead of being mad about it, we should say, well, maybe I need to teach this to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how can I convey and help them understand sort of the intention behind something?

[SPEAKER_01]: because I've seen in myself and I've seen how conversation with other people where they just get mad about something.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, well, this isn't working.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not good at this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they want to pack it up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess whenever I have conversations with those people and I'll be in a ministry is frustrating at times, but maybe the approach is maybe have a different eyes for them different like compassion towards them of like, okay, they don't get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: How can I help them see it or see the values?

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like like a slow a slowness is helpful in like leadership in a church anyway, which is

[SPEAKER_02]: I can't tell if it's like against my nature or with my nature because it's like there's like internal conflict about it, you know, because on the one hand it's like if I if you have a vision like I just want to implement it as soon as possible, but on the other hand, it's like I don't feel the need to

[SPEAKER_02]: change too much too quickly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I want to see how things play out as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like it's a balance to try to figure out because you do want to, I think you want to let the kids guide you to some degree and to say like, I want to be able to meet you where you're already at.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It kind of requires like a little bit of flexibility, but then at the same time it's like, we also don't need to do like a whiplash thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So especially when considering like parents and how parents feel about things, whiplash does not go well with parents.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, it's important to stick to, yeah, kind of slow, slow moving, you know, again, that's a lot of that is hindsight, right, as you get to the other side of things and you start reflecting and looking back on things, you can realize, you know, the approach, the things that work, things that didn't work, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: The biggest, the biggest need is really just a heart for, I say the students for the, for the souls of the people that are there, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, none of your programming or anything else really matters, you know, unless, if you don't have a heart for them, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think there's a, yeah, your heart first and foremost has to be for the students and for their hearts to be able to really grasp the truth

[SPEAKER_01]: know God and understand scripture, like you understand the truths that are in there and wrestle with some of the stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you, if you don't have the heart for them and for people, everything else is just gonna sort of, you'll be going down the wrong path.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because that does direct the ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if there's a situation coming up, I mean, there's been so many times over the years where, you know, I have a lesson plan in mind

[SPEAKER_01]: planned out what we're going to do for the next series or even the next few series and through some conversations and whatever, it's like, you discover, like, oh, I don't, I don't need to go that way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to go over here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, and that's true for so many, so many aspects of ministry, and I'm sure, even in, you know, secular world as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, you know, there's some of the stuff and what I'd say is helpful is like, I've had

[SPEAKER_01]: Over the years, I sort of shy away, sometimes from having the kids writing down, you know, you give them application.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you want them to sort of write their thoughts down on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wrestle sometimes with, I don't, you know, I selfishly kind of want to see what they're saying, but at the same time, I'm also going, well, this is between them and God and like, I don't necessarily need to be involved in that, but the Holy Spirit does work.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, there's been situations over the years where I've done different things in part

[SPEAKER_01]: lesson, whatever, have had them write something down and put it in a box or something in afterwards, you know, gone through it or read it or maybe after a weekend retreat and you can read kind of where they're at.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that has those things have completely shifted directions of youth ministry for me over the years.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because you get like such a raw view of kind of where, you know, collectively the students are.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's been a good thing that

[SPEAKER_01]: utilized periodically to kind of give me a temperature on where people are.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, again, it doesn't really matter what the program is.

[SPEAKER_01]: If the focus is, are they understanding this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Are they growing?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or are they, what are they struggling with?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a people first.

[SPEAKER_01]: approach and now how can I speak to that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: What um this is an interesting question I've been asking everybody, did you expect to work with teenagers like let's say like by the time you know that you're going to stick around in church and you're going to do something in the church at some point?

[SPEAKER_02]: Are you thinking like oh yeah I want to work with teenagers or was it just because you said it kind of fell together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but did you sort of already have that heart for teenagers or was that something that you had to develop?

[SPEAKER_01]: I probably was barely out of feeling like a teenager at the time, but at 24.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if I had a heart for teenagers per se, but I was, I think I saw the value in it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I, you know, as much as, I don't know if I would ever say that I, even at, at the time,

[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to go back in my brain and get a really thin back.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think there was always something in me about wanting to be involved in ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, it was always in my, in my gut, you know, in my sort of, the things I was involved in, I was always involved in different ministries at church and even some, you know, bigger, you know, let's call them paraturch ministry stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I was, so I was always finding myself involved in those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not necessarily because I was like, trying to adjust through conversations and things that would happen, I would.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I enjoyed being part of them, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think I was, yeah, this sort of fell into my lap, but I was also looking forward, I was looking for opportunities, and I think youth ministry was something that I was intrigued by.

[SPEAKER_01]: I had a great, you know, youth group experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I personally saw the value in it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was a cool thing to be part of.

[SPEAKER_01]: So do what I think I was gonna do it for this long, I don't, I don't know if I ever had an end and say, per se, like, or I never really thought about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But here I am, you know, and I really don't have any intention of, I have no, there's nothing in me that makes me want to walk away from it or that I'm tired of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm gonna keep going.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm committed to it and ultimately,

[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I mean, part of it is really, I'm committed to wanting to see people grow in their walks with Christ and yeah, I don't know, that's my driving motivation at the current time, and there's situations and where my role is in youth ministry in the future, I think

[SPEAKER_01]: how that looks in the future, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but this question has come up at church, you know, as elder, you know, people are like, you know, are you ready to step out of that and now do something, you know, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Now that you're focusing on this, and ultimately that's, that has been,

[SPEAKER_01]: that is my main ministry within the church, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in terms of, you know, what I'm involved in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: I actively thought that I wouldn't do it, which I've said, and like all these episodes, I, I,

[SPEAKER_02]: I have like, uh, uh, when I move on into like a new phase, I don't often don't want to have anything to do with whatever I am coming from at that point.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so like becoming an adult after, like, you want to college and sort of like growing up a little bit at least, I was like, I don't want to deal with teenagers.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't have conversation with teenagers.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to do anything to have anything to do with that, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, and then I went to a church that didn't, it was small and they didn't have a youth group.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like,

[SPEAKER_02]: This is what they need.

[SPEAKER_02]: They already had to teaching pastors.

[SPEAKER_02]: They had two people that didn't music.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it was like, like, I played bass for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they didn't need some, they didn't need my other skill sets.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're like,

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of how I got into it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I find that like I do have like I have a heart for like kids in general.

[SPEAKER_02]: So any age really.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that's what's like kept me in it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then when I graduating got offered the job that I have now, it's like,

[SPEAKER_02]: that's also what they needed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like they needed it bad because it had just not meant something they could fill.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like kind of my whole tenure as a teenager.

[SPEAKER_02]: So so yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it was just kind of funny like this is actually not what I thought I would be doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's probably I don't know it's hard to say what like my main ministry at the churches because I wear so many hats at my church.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's certainly I mean it's it's definitely one of the main things that I do there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's become like

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, an interesting turn of events, you know, it's one of those, it's one of those ones where like, I don't feel like God gave me like a specific calling to do really meant many of the things that I'm doing, but I do feel like he hasn't still like a general like love for people and kids and kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: It are included in that and it's like,

[SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like he's kind of like snickering about it, you know, it's like, you know, he's like up there like I did that to you, but but it has become something that's been really something that brings me joy to see to see kids like make the connection, to see kids like come to you and say stuff that maybe they wouldn't say to anybody else, I think is really that's when I feel.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the deepest accomplishment is when somebody feels safe enough to say, to say something up like, oh, this is not something you would say.

[SPEAKER_02]: To a teacher at school or to somebody else in the church or maybe even your parents, it's like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So this other guy who's been helping me with the group, he predates me, he was a student there when I came in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's basically been there ever since.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in different phases, he's been out for, you know, time here and there and different things going on in his life, but this year has come back and he's never really gone just sort of on sabbatical.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Great guy who is, who is just always, he's just so steady, he's such a, he's like a rock and I love, you know, his approach, I love his heart for the, for the kids and the youth ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he and I are similar in our dispositions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, we don't tend to get wrong up quickly.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're kind of measured.

[SPEAKER_01]: We kind of, you know, can hear somebody can be telling us the craziest story.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we're just like, hmm, interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not like in the like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just, I do a lot of my thinking of conversations post conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right, right, me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been made fun of in the past by some of the kids in the youth group because they'll get text from me, like, you know, an hour after the next morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking, and that's how they make fun in me.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, hey, I was thinking.

[SPEAKER_01]: But whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how are we going to get here, wait a minute, you were talking about that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, all I can think of is all this time, so you texted me, hey, I was like me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so there was a lot of it came from conversations, I think, of when I value, I value being able to get to be kind of peer behind the curtain of where somebody's really at, because there's

[SPEAKER_01]: stuff, and I'd say even more so in church, and especially with kids that, man, sometimes they are wrestling with something, and they feel like this immense guilt of being able to share something that they're struggling with, they're share, doubt, or whatever it is that they're faced with, because they're faced with the, if then, because of kind of their history in the church, their parents were all in the church and all this, and all that to say, like,

[SPEAKER_01]: when you get to somebody or you meet so many people and through conversations, you know when you're talking to somebody and you can just like, you know, there's more to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not the type of person who's just sort of telling you everything that factors into whatever conversation you're having.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think this other guy and I, it's like, we've talked about it before because like what we, the wind for me is when you're talking to somebody and they'll say the magic phrase of like,

[SPEAKER_01]: I've never told this to anybody before, like, yes, we're getting some or we're in, right, because it's, it's just like, like you're saying, it is a special spot to be invited into that there could be something that that somebody's like really, you know, that's like foundational to their approach or their who they are as a person and what they've experienced in this life and right when they're willing to.

[SPEAKER_01]: be vulnerable and share that right you can work with that it's going to like okay now that night now that we know kind of where you're at now we can we go from here right yeah I think people need like And this this isn't an age thing at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's more of like a relationship relational like what kind of relationship you have is that kids need like an older brother or sister Yeah in the church

[SPEAKER_02]: not so much like another mom or dad in the turn and I feel like you've usually where whatever age they are like they isn't really the important it's more like the position um... they can kind of be that you know like they're often perceived is like i'm not going to get in trouble if i tell this person

[SPEAKER_02]: which is true, you know, that it is a safe place.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the, the opportunity is that at whatever point of vulnerability they are at, you can be the person that says like, okay, but Jesus still loves you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Cares about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's there.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's here in the season not going anywhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think there's an opportunity to be like a non anxious, steady presence and like a kid's life that they don't feel like day.

[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe they do have it somewhere else, but they don't feel like they have it anywhere else, often times.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's been experiences where you, you've maybe found something out about somebody or, you know, people have to tell on themselves so they like let something slip.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just something that they, the otherwise wouldn't want you to know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's something unique there to being able to really be able to,

[SPEAKER_01]: they know that you know right and maybe their perception and their thought of how you would react or thinking that yeah you would sort of cut them off type of thing and like there's unique role of being able to um for somebody to to have sort of the worst thing about them be found out right and then to have somebody still come up with their arm around them and say sorry yeah let's move forward

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, ever reminds me of this kid that was, I mean, he's not a kid anywhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like 25 or something.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like we, we were walking through not just youth group together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like he was in youth group.

[SPEAKER_02]: He would have been, I think, late middle school when I went full time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there was like one or two years or we were actually in youth group together.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like when he was really young and I was senior or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we were also walking through like discipleship outside of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's not really in the church right now, but basically late high school.

[SPEAKER_02]: He got his girlfriend pregnant and then had this kid and nobody knew about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, none of the people in the church like we're checking up on because we had been meeting like pretty much every like once a month, maybe twice a month.

[SPEAKER_02]: At the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember what happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: No hesitation like he was just like my girlfriend's pregnant.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was normal for him to be talking to me about that thing and I just remember like feeling

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not even on his mind that I would not be a safe person to tell that to, and it's not like he went and told everybody at church, but in the relationship that we had, it was like, yeah, this is just just talking, you know, and I was like, oh, well, you know, congrats like you know what, you know, and we tried to walk through it and we thought theologically about it, it wasn't like, you know, he knew that's the thing is like, people already know, you don't need to like, you're like, oh, you know, you're not supposed to do that or whatever, you know,

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: He already knew that, but it was a place where we were able to like meet up and I think I think at the minimum, it made that situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: He was at least able to like enjoy like the beauty of the situation without being encumbered by maybe some of the also the other like baggage that sometimes comes with virtual relationships, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I mean, he's nothing really happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's still in youth group.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, graduated, still kept up with him a lot after college, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's like a cool thing and I think there's even other ones, you know, like I had even just recently like a couple a couple kids have like I know that they're doing some kind of drugs of some kind outside and it's like, you know, they know that you know, and so it's like,

[SPEAKER_02]: The ability to just like be able to treat kids really with respect, honestly, outside of that, because that's how Jesus treated people, you know, not every taboo has to be like a big thing, like the scarlet letter culture that sometimes exists and in churches is very much not a biblical one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jesus didn't really seem to concern with that stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: role, even more so than like a Sunday morning pastor of a church, is you tend to be like you said sort of like that close closer person to them, or you have a unique role where sometimes you have a good relationship with these kids, not the pastors don't have that also, but what's unique, unique just because of

[SPEAKER_01]: where teenagers are developmentally, they're just excited about being around somebody else who's not the parent, sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they can, there's those roles of being able to, there's times to like speak and redirect things.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in my approach, in my life, it's like,

[SPEAKER_01]: just coming in like telling somebody the list of rules.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't necessarily the approach.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you have a relationship with somebody, then there's room for conversations about things that are going on in their life, you know, in situations as they come up in.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And some of it's being discerning of like, are they at a point where they are asking for input?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a lot of times like invitation only for those kinds of conversations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and in situational era, different things going on, I think there's times to speak to something and even bring it up, but at a certain point like you're saying, you have to get to a point where you're like, well, you already know what you're doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't need to tell you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, that is the role of the Holy Spirit in the life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't need to be the Holy Spirit.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's probably been something in life

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I'm growing it, you know, as I've, as I've seen some of these kids go through different things and times when it's like, there's a balance, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, at what, what's the balance of me?

[SPEAKER_01]: I should address something versus I should.

[SPEAKER_01]: step back, and let, and let, and let, you know, and let, like I'll deal with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like the, I like the way you put that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not a way that I thought about it before, but that's very true that like the least spirit is probably, you know, bringing conviction, especially somebody who's like really walking with the Lord, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there was a, where I probably learned this in the biggest way it was a few years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd come through

[SPEAKER_01]: A couple years of youth group and things were tough.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was post-COVID, there was a lot of breakdown of some of the kids in youth group and significant ways that their own personal walks with Jesus and their own things that they were wrestling with.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really know what to do with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did all that I knew.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was teaching through Scripture, you know, and speaking to, you never want to preach at people.

[SPEAKER_01]: But preaching, speaking to situations and like, approaching how we theologically think about things.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And got to a point where there was a year that I said, okay, like this year, at that point we had continued on through your script through the summer, and got to a point when I said, you know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of for my own mental sanity said, I need to put a breaks up

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to take a break this summer because I knew that I was the one trying to fix problems and I had to say I don't know what else to do and I need to trust that it's not about me and it's about God.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I did that things kind of started out great.

[SPEAKER_01]: That summer get a call from another student there who runs away from home.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like doing all sorts of terrible things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was just sort of like, it was a real, like, man took the wind out of, well, it was so much wind in the sales.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it took any, it kind of put this cloud over this time when I was like, man, like, maybe this was our own choice, maybe I was supposed to stay in a shit of kept going.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this, so this went on for, you know, chance of coming back after many months gone, you know, refusing to talk to anybody, you know, kind of changed everything, your number and moved out and disappeared for a few months.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was still in high school at the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: her life seemingly turns around and through conversations, you know, I know her time and youth group is coming to an end and I'm thinking, you know, I'm keeping thinking like, okay, maybe like, does she understand that, like, we never talked about anything, so you kept things very shallow and I kind of like, does she understand that what she did with wrong, does she understand that, maybe, sure, I'm done, she understand forgiveness and all this and so that's what I'm weighing, but again, not necessarily wanting to come in

[SPEAKER_01]: but waiting for that to organically happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: It seemingly wasn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm praying about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling a little upset about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like, well, I guess I'm not going to have that conversation before she leaves for school.

[SPEAKER_01]: It gets to, and this is now probably a year and a half after everything had happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like a week before she's leaving for college.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she contacted me and she was like, can I come over to your house?

[SPEAKER_01]: I talked to you guys and she was trying to just stay and talk some stuff out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, so I was like, sweet.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she comes over and men, we ended up talking about like kind of everything over the past kind of her whole, like all these years back in her life and kind of where she's been and where she landed and really, it was a weird refreshing moment of me kind of realizing,

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man, God did so much in her life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't, and looking back on like, man, and I wanted to come in, and I wanted to fix this situation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I needed to come in, like, it was just still me going, I need to do this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And getting to the point of, even just this realization of, I was feeling like I needed to have the conversation and make sure she understands something, and then after talking to her realizing, oh, man, she fully gets it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was this humbling moment of realizing that God can do all of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to be the Holy Spirit in somebody's life.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that was probably like, that's a shortened version of it, but that was probably like a big moment that God used this situation to really point to me and going, I can do all of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I can change people and even get them to,

[SPEAKER_01]: she'd, anyway, all that ended up, you know, getting baptized her a couple of years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was a, it was a good exciting turn around in life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was a win in youth ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was a win out of other failures.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right, right, right, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was saying it's like weird that too.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're dealing with kids that like, these are kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're probably going to youth group either because like they like the experience or because their parents are making them or, you know, or because their parents go to the church, whatever, like they oftentimes have not made the decision for themselves to be their youth group.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I always think that's important, like just to recognize that like these teenagers are on a journey like they're not like mature Christian Like committed super committed followers to Jesus like some of them might not even be there yet, you know, or some of them might think they're there and then realize that they're like You know in two years, they might deconstruct away from it, you know, and I mean like Usually starts fall apart around 10th grade.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's probably the years that I see it the most.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have, like I have this one kid right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: He literally won one Sunday middle school, late middle school.

[SPEAKER_02]: One time he comes in and he's like, I think I want to be like a pastor.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think that's what I want to do as a career.

[SPEAKER_02]: I kid you not like a month later.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, I don't think I'm a Christian.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, I'm just coming here because my mom's giving me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like,

[SPEAKER_02]: What this is pretty crazy, you know, but I'm always trying to remember that, too, is that like, okay, these kids are here because they're being made to be like there, I got a respect that they're also like on a journey, you know, it's different when you've got like an adult who's just, you know, they're, they've been walking the Lord, they've been baptized there, they've made the decision to become members of the church, like all that stuff, there's a level of accountability that they have.

[SPEAKER_02]: that the teenagers, they don't have that level of accountability because they haven't made the decision for themselves necessarily.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I always try to do that, too, it's just like respect for people's journey.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like it's okay to be young and to not have really made a full commitment yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think because of that, like when I preach or times out of preach on the Sunday or in youth group, especially, there's an element of, of, of,

[SPEAKER_01]: I do speak probably to the quote unquote skeptic in the room like, because I know there's there's people and the kids are just sort of like, you know, the Bible has some wild stories, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's some wild thoughts in there and you kind of go, you know, it's okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's okay to what I try to tell the kids is like, it's okay for you to question if this is true, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And to really like sort of wrestle with that and like, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but how can I maybe help provide some context or some historical information that might help solidify and make you come to a different position?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I mean, there was a few years ago, there was this girl, she was there every single week.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was one of the core people and then gets to the end of youth group and it was just, you know, she graduates heading off to college at summer and through conversation, she's just like, whatever the situation was, she was going through

[SPEAKER_01]: her last year, things kind of blew up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm trying to guide her spiritually through a couple of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: And ultimately, I was kind of like, you know, because she didn't really, I guess I didn't really know where she was at.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I, you know, I asked her more point blank and I'm kind of like, you know, because that this is going to change your approach like how, how you're facing the situation, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: If you are, you know,

[SPEAKER_01]: your view theologically of who God is and his role in your life can influence how you're feeling towards something, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and basically, good thing it's just like, yeah, I don't think I believe any of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And man, that was like, I'm fine with it from like a personal place, but it was, it was a hard pill to swallow, because I was like, man, I wish you had told me this years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I hate that you've gone seven years now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're just now telling me this after you graduate because I'm like, I feel like, again, it would be fine, no matter what.

[SPEAKER_01]: But ultimately, I think we could have, I would have maybe approached and had different conversations with her, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think, like you're saying, and I was grateful that she was willing to say that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I didn't change our relationship by any means.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it didn't change the dynamic, but maybe she thought it would, or,

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she was like, I need to wait till I'm out of youth group to tell them this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe a response to it, spoke some of the things you said you had a chance to say earlier, you know?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to think so.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but I hope, you know, and I, I still keep in touch with her here and there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she's, she's off at school.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, um, anyway, all that to say, I wish, I wish people would be more honest.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so I tried it through, through the course of youth group.

[SPEAKER_01]: several times to the year I try to make that a point of telling people and I sometimes are a friend of that story because I'm like, it's okay for you to tell me that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to treat you any different.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to kick you out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like it's fine for you to be that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could still have snack at the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I don't want, I don't, you don't need to just be here every week pretending that you're something that you're not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of just be who you are and then.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's helpful information for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I fully agree with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is me, I feel like we're just getting started.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's something that stories we could share.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I do want to wrap with this one question, which is, people that are listening to spot gas.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure some of them will be in youth ministry, but I would imagine the majority of them aren't.

[SPEAKER_02]: But many of them would be part of a church where there are teenagers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So as somebody that's got a lot of experience with teenagers, say a few words to people about maybe how they shouldn't be interacting with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: and in church, should they interact with them as a softball?

[SPEAKER_02]: Should they be interacted with?

[SPEAKER_02]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, of course, they... Professional only.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's lots of studies out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think sticky faith is one of those books that speaks to this of the people who, you know, statistically, we know it's like, you know, 60% of people walk away from their faith in high school.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the, the bright spot on that is I think,

[SPEAKER_01]: 60% of those that walk away do come back to faith later in life.

[SPEAKER_01]: But obviously nobody wants anybody to be walking away even for her time and for a period.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's the point of this book is about, well, how do you get it to really stick and really be involved?

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things is being involved in the church and being seen outside of just the youth ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Huge statistics show that if a student is

[SPEAKER_01]: involved in some sort of ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have some ownership in the church, involved in nursery, sound booth, greeting, right, what have you, whatever you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: That there's such greater likelihood that the kid isn't going to walk away.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because now more than just showing up and Sean's gonna wonder where I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now there's, oh, these five people are gonna wonder where I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and there,

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and all ages, and this is the value of multi-generational ministry as well in in a church.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's small churches.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's easier for us to do that because we need people.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's such value in having some older people involved, and from all ranges and whether you're doing some men's events, women's events, like inviting the kids, making it possible for them to come if there's costs, you know, the church is helping to get them there, because even if something's over their head, it's still good for them to be there.

[SPEAKER_01]: be seen by other people who know who they are.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think getting the teens involved in the ministry is probably the answer.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it also allows them to feel like they are valuable and they are.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know if he's going to disagree with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But given a role in the church that they have like almost a task that they are counted on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we try to do that as best we can at at the church.

[SPEAKER_01]: try to get the kids involved, you know, in many different ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because as I also tell students, usually at the start of every year is, you know, the youth, you know, from obviously from the verse, I don't look down on you for your youth.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so encouraging to see somebody who's excited in their faith and growing in their faith.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for somebody who's kind of wrapping their heads around and for and to see young

[SPEAKER_01]: series about their faith?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is such a blast of encouragement to the series heard her name?

[SPEAKER_01]: series heard me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hearing people, the church being able to see people, you know, young people who are totally, you know, living out their faith.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's tangible ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that, you can imagine like what a like this, you could take a bunch of

[SPEAKER_01]: Benefits so greatly because of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all right, and that the older people are going to be looking at them and encourage by them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and they are like I can't tell you how many kids over the years like three different things that are going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of them being this that girl who kind of took off for a couple months her faith is like.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's encouraged me in so many ways like you know and I've had these conversations with their you know, just like it's it's uh, I don't think they realize how

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and it's encouraged, I think it's important to for the adults in the room to tell that to the kids when something that happens to say, you know, I'm really, you've bolstered my faith and encouraged me because of XYZ, you know, and you've encouraged me to go do something that I wasn't doing or to step up in a certain way.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: So good.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, go talk to the teenagers in your church and to not scare encourage them,

[SPEAKER_02]: They seem scary, but they're not scary.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're more scared of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're definitely more scared of you than you are of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very true.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very true.

[SPEAKER_01]: They will say mean things about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: But not your face.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not your face.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they do say it to your face.

[SPEAKER_01]: If they really like you, they'll say it to your face.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good thing though.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a positive window with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can't be too sensitive if you work with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very true.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's very true.

[SPEAKER_01]: They will hurt your feelings.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you so much for the time, man.

[SPEAKER_02]: This has been really cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's always a good time to talk to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for your thanks for this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.