Introducing Lent - Episode 3 with Kristen WIlliams

awesome welcome to episode three of our

podcast introducing lent I'm in our

prayer room and I'm joined by a good

friend Christen Williams who's actually

coming to uh preach at toonga Elum in

about uh 10 days from when we're

recording this so we're actually here on

Ash Wednesday and uh recording it and

this the third and final episode is

actually going to be on self-denial and

so Kristen's the one that have come in

and asked to talk about self but before

we get to that J maybe just want to

introduce yourself uh tell us who you

are well it's uh always good to be here

with you mate and I'm looking forward to

visiting the church for the first time

10 days Shivers that's coming up quick

isn't it we just got back uh we just got

back from a holiday so like I said you

in the car park I'm I'm going flat out

catching up on uh getting ready for the

year uh so uh my wife and I we've lived

here in toonga for uh coming up 13 years

um we have three kids two grandkids and

uh these days I I previously was

pastoring a church locally but these

days I'm just uh have more of a nomadic

existence so tend to be in a different

town or a different location every week

and um it's quite a privilege I get to

hang out with people like you and get to

see a bit of a picture of what's going

on in various towns and locations and

churches all over the country awesome so

good and uh I know you've been such an

encouragement to me and my walk with the

Lord and I've just so appreciated the

wisdom and know that that's going to be

such a blessing to our people as we come

to discuss self-denial and I guess to

give it context by the time people will

be uh listening to this uh some will be

about three or 4 days into perhaps

having chosen to lay something down for

the Lord for some that might be sugar it

might be coffee it might be screens it

might be social media it will be

something um that probably is going to

be a a self-denial and you know we've

talked an earlier podcast

about uh how we're so fortunate in a

western world that even the things that

we give up are even a sign of what

luxury we have but I guess people will

be listening to this and some people

will be having a great experience and

right now some people will be feeling

all kinds of withdrawals or or

struggling and so I don't know maybe as

a starting point what what kind of well

when whenever you're whenever you give

something up or you know whether you're

fasting or um giving up something in

particular about three or four is when

the theory starts to become a bit more

real to you that's when it starts to

bite a bit doesn't it so um uh you know

for anyone that is feeling the bite

great grace on you you know and I think

it's I think it's so important that we

understand why why self-denial is uh an

aspect of this face why does lent even

exist why why are the many scriptures I

was I was just looking at various

scriptures and I I made myself a couple

of notes earlier but but I was looking

at many scriptures today about about

denying ourselves and about you know

fasting and and and ceasing this sort of

activity so that we can give ourselves

to pursuing God and and um you know it's

a cost benefit isn't it you know there

there is a cost and there is also a

benefit but when you're in the middle of

the cost sometimes it's harder to see

the

benefit so um while we were away on

holiday I I don't watch a lot of network

television but we're at the we were at

the family has a beach house down in the

able Tasman so we were down there and

you know you you know you spend a day

you know my wife and I'd go off for

hikes or you know you spend a day out on

the water or whatever you're doing and

you come home and suddenly you know

sometimes just because you're a bit

you're a bit worn out you sit down and

you flick on the TV and for the first

time in ages I saw a lot of ads I

haven't seen I haven't seen ads on

broadcast television for ages and I

found it quite confronting actually

the the the Indulgence of them

everything was about indulge whether it

was selling ice creams or cat food or

retirement villages it was all it was

all about indulgent you know be in

indulge in this and indulge in that and

and I think the message around us is uh

in the society that we're in is

Indulgence have the best of this get

what you deserve and so then this

message of self-denial is a little

little bit it's a little bit like a

voice in the wilderness isn't it you

know in the midst of all that saying

actually no there is a there is a there

is a different pathway that requires

something different from us than just

endless Indulgence absolutely it's a CO

a counterculture narrativism exactly

exactly and such an

invitation because there is actually a

shallowness to the Indulgence right that

eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we

die you know and uh there there is a a

shallowness to that um and sometimes uh

when when we begin to peel that back in

all of our Lives as we say that day

three it can be hard but actually what's

on the other side is an invitation into

something so rich well you use the key

word there invitation and um uh you know

like when when the message from the

church is just denial denial denial

which we you know we might talk about a

bit later on but when it's just that um

uh there's no there's no there's no hope

in it there's no joy but you use the key

word invitation so when when the Lord

invites us to deny ourselves when the

word of God speaks about denying

ourselves like you say it's always an

invitation and um and like we were

talking about earlier you know like I've

had various times where um particularly

in the realm of prayer and waiting on

God where I've I've had the Lord give me

an invitation and the invitation always

came with a cost you know like whether

it was staying up late at night or

getting up really early in the morning

or even even even just quitting various

things that I never in a in a in a

hundred years would have thought were

that I I would need to quit but just

having having that that voice of the

Holy Spirit saying I want you to get rid

of that in your life um uh and so all of

those they always an invitation to

something so like when when I had the

Lord say to me this is what N9 years ago

now when I had the Lord say to me in a

dream uh uh I want to spend time with

you and my life was busy like most

people's lives are busy and the only

time I could find for that chunk of time

that he was asking was to get up really

early in the morning and so the first

morning getting up at

4:00 um uh you know it was it was a bit

of a shocker I I sat

there really the caffeine was the only

thing that was enabling me to stay awake

um and then later on he asked me to do

it without caffeine which was you know

another step along the way but um the

benefit so so at the point of the

invitation often you see the cost like

oh my gosh how am I going to do that but

then the benefit far outweighed it and

and I found it to be quite life

transforming wow and I I know I've heard

you share a number of times about a time

in your life I think it was in Nelson

where you were watching a murder mystery

do you want to share that story with us

well uh I was being indulgent I was

sitting in my big rocking chair and I

had my evening cup of Milo and my my

very tasty biscuit and I was sitting

there and on you know on my at that

stage we just got our first ever uh flat

panel TV you know and so I I was pretty

keen on watching it and I was sitting

there in my big chair watching this uh

uh one of these murder shows you know it

begins with a graphic murder and then

the rest of the show is trying to work

out uh who done it and I'm sitting there

and this thought goes through my mind

this is a stupid way to entertain myself

and so I left the Milo there I took the

biscuit with me cuz it was more portable

put on a big jacket and went to the

garage and stood in the garage in the

dark and then I was like now what am I

going to do I just I knew that I didn't

want to just sit there indulging myself

and that murder thing I wanted to be

with God so I went to the garage where

there were no distractions and what

unfolded really over the next five six

seven years was a journey of really uh

getting to know God learning how to

communicate with him when when there

wasn't a skillful worship leader uh

leading me in a song or um uh a skilled

prayer leader leading a prayer meeting I

I learned how to stand alone and the

cost initially was just this feeling of

absolute barrenness I was like man I've

been a Christian for 30 years and I

don't even know how to talk to God but

over the period of time I started to see

the benefit of what the invitation was

and and I I just had some some wild

Encounters in that garage at our house

in Nelson and interestingly enough when

we sold the house when the real estate

agent went through the house he wasn't a

Believer but he went through the house

and he walked into the garage and he was

like wow this garage feels really

excellent and I just think there was a

residue in there from all the prayer

that had happened wow yeah and I can

certainly identify with those times of

saying man I I don't even know how to

pray yeah you know I think where Jesus

said you know when you pray don't bring

your request for your father already

knows what you need and there was a time

where I realized yeah that would cut my

prayer life that that was my prayer life

if I was to take that command seriously

totally my my prayer life would cease

and so I do find it interesting though

that that invitation did come with

laying something down and I think

sometimes we try and add in what the

Lord's asking us to do without perhaps

laying something down which actually

enables the that that to happen I I

found that every time he's asked me to

do something he's always given me the

grace to do it although sometimes the

grace seems to arrive shortly after you

take the first step so um

uh so like you know you were just

talking about bringing your requests to

God so I I got into the garage and the

first thing that I realized in that

garriage was that my prayer life

consisted either of pacing back and

forth speaking in tongues which is good

or bringing requests to God equally

which is good and I I I didn't want that

to be all of it so for the first three

months I fasted praying in tongues and

asking for things and I had to learn how

to talk to God in a totally different

way and I I discovered things like the

value of Silence I discovered things

like the value of repeating something

like actually meditating on it and

chewing it over and saying it over and

over again uh started to develop

language of how to talk to God and uh

again that was quite a life-changing

experience wow I've never heard that as

a concept fasting a particular type of

prayer some of us are going man at the

moment and I'm fasting watching YouTube

videos and Kristen Williams is over here

fasting types of prayer well while it

was happening I was like oh Lord am I in

deception here but it it you know the

the fruit was good the fruit was good

but it was it was a journey yeah

absolutely and so I guess as we um begin

to even as we're discussing these things

uh I think one of the things that

doesn't help us with self denial is

straight away we begin a comparison

thing yeah like I start thinking about

what you did and I look at my my life

and I think well have I done that or you

know um do I need to do this and so we

begin to uh look in a in a comparison

way and uh what do you think about the

danger of that well I think it's very

dangerous is it is it Galatians or

Ephesians says when we compare ourselves

with ourselves we lack wisdom and um uh

and what we what we can tend to do when

we're doing that is we make a Doctrine

out of someone else's testimony or a

formula out of a testimony so like if

you share a testimony with me your

testimony doesn't it doesn't mean to me

that if I do exactly what you did God

will do exactly what he did in your life

and mine your testimony is an invitation

to me so if you if if if we are at a

conference together and you have a wild

encounter with God and I'm left there

unmoved I I can either sit there and

look at you and go huh well that's not

feir you know I remember once I was

talking in a particular place and um uh

it was a it was a school that students

paid for and some of the students were

having wild encounters and I had this

young man come up to me and said hey

well you know where's where's my

encounter with God I paid the same fee

and I was like oh buddy you you know

you're getting in some dodgy territory

there so if I'm at the conference and

you're having a wild encounter your

encounter is my reminder that God

encounters people and he might not be

doing it to me right there but it's my

encouragement oh yes God encounters

people and he'll maybe he'll get me

later but if I if I start comparing then

I'm going to wind up in ugly places with

envy and jealousy and frustration which

I don't know how you go with that but

they're never good for me yeah and even

you enter into self-denial that maybe

you're not supposed to enter into so you

begin to think well if this is what a

spiritual person does I guess I should

uh sacrifice XY Z and can actually end

up in a place where uh you know you're

denying yourself but it's not into an

invitation it's it's into an expectation

that maybe I'll become like someone else

or so if someone if someone hears a

testimony about you know like I've just

alluded to them there's quite a lot more

to those stories but if if I uh if I'm

um if someone hears me alluding to you

know these particular seasons of Prayer

in my life and they say what should I do

uh my advice would be say start by

saying Lord Jesus would would you in

your kindness give me an invitation

because both of those particular times

began with what I knew to be an

invitation from the Lord um and so that

would be my advice you know often often

share testimonies particularly with

younger people and they're like oh wow

you know I really want what you have and

you say well ask the Lord ask the Holy

Spirit to bring an invitation to you

because the invitation will always come

with the grace to do what he's asked you

to do yeah that's so good and I know

some people some of us have grown up in

legalistic cultures where uh it wasn't

uh self-denial that you chose it was

something that was expected of you and

so uh how do you think we balance the

idea of you know uh the scriptural truth

that God gives us things to enjoy and we

are actually to enjoy life uh versus

this thing of self-denial and laying our

lives down like uh where do you find the

tension lies with that oh it's probably

hundred different ones isn't there but

um really it comes down to the heart

motive like strange strange example but

if if you if you go out into the Book of

Revelation and you know people um in

recent years suddenly people that

haven't been interested in the Book of

Revelation or things to do with the end

times suddenly they are and there's a

big tangent there we're not going down

that but but when you look at the at the

issue of say for example this this wild

topic of the mark of the beast the issue

there is not the actual Mark it's

worship so what the evil one is after is

worship so he doesn't just want you

to own a house he wants you to worship

your house to give everything of worth

that you have to that house he doesn't

he you know it's it's it's it's okay to

have a really good career I think it's

even okay to have lots of money the

issue is not what you own it's what owns

you and that's um and really that's what

this comes back to you know like uh

legalism when we get legalistic

something's gone wrong in our heart

attitude to whatever we've become

legalistic about and um and if we keep

our worship in the right place then I I

think that we're a whole lot less likely

to get caught in legalism you know

whether it's whether it's you know like

here we are at the beginning of Lent and

lent unfolding unfolding ahead of us but

um there are a lot of people all around

the world that will do lent out of

legalism they are trying to earn what

was already given what was already

freely given it's by Grace we've been

saved through faith look I'm starting to

wave my arms around here and act like a

preacher but it it is by Grace we've

been saved through faith we bring we

bring nothing to this other than our

humble grateful yes Lord have all of me

but once we start trying to earn it you

know or if if I if I see you having

encounters and I go right I need to I

need to do this and this and this to

earn that it doesn't work that way

that's that's legalism and legalism you

know is is always is the the letter

kills but the spirit gives life so it's

it's it's it's it's in it's in that

regard that we really need the Holy

Spirit to help us

discern yeah and I think it's

interesting because something can become

legal legalism for a person

and they end up being very wey of that

thing but you can then assume that

anyone else practicing that is in

legalism whereas one person's legalism

is actually another person's worship and

uh you know there are things that that I

know I could get legalistic about that

actually would not be helpful for me and

yet other people practice the very same

thing as an act of worship to God and

it's deeply worshipful for them and so

it's it's keeping an eye not so much on

what the outward action is but what's

the heart behind it and I often think

it's uh as well you know if it is

something you're fasting from or

something you're giving up sometimes the

challenge comes where can I actually

take this back up again like what I be

okay to partake in this yeah and if it's

like well no I never could it's kind of

like wow that's an interesting attitude

like uh you know I know when I gave up

coffee for lint one year I did the lent

and then I did year and uh at the end of

the year I was really pleased that I'd

done 12 months and then I felt to take

it up again and there was a little bit

of self-righteous Pride that was kind of

like well I've given coffee up for 12

months like look at me look at me and uh

I can tell you though the first cup back

tasted amazing like it wasn't like oh

that tasted gone like it was amazing I

mean I would go during that 12 months

and buy SAR a takeway coffee and she

thought I was so nice cuz I was buying

her a takeaway coffee and that's true I

was doing something nice for my wife but

I'd also sniff it on home and I just

sniff the the beans and go oh that

smells so good and so for me equally the

challenge was hey take it back up it's

okay enjoy it I've given you something

to enjoy and so I think it's uh

certainly in the early stages of fasting

it's not such a challenge but sometimes

it is a challenge if you worried that

someone's something's getting legalistic

it's kind of like what would happen if I

actually partook in that again you know

we're not talking about sinful things of

course um but you know something that's

permissible yeah what would happen if I

and if you find yourself saying oh I

never could not wow I I actually want to

keep fasting this because it's an act of

worship yeah you know I I think that's a

really good uh Paradigm and a good

question to ask you know well and I

think too I think there's um I think the

Lord's really been speaking to me and

and to me and my wife in probably the

last 15 years about Simplicity you know

like we live in a world that is very

complex and even even likes to

prioritize complexity um and and for me

Simplicity like I look at that verse you

know uh let us throw off everything that

hinders and the sin that so easily

entangles so there are things that we

need to throw off that are not sin but

they're hindering us you know and so um

uh we started looking at that we started

looking at things we had in our lives

that were just slowing us down things

that were hindering us things that were

requiring time of us we we wanted to

prioritize being as flexible as we

possibly could and and you can do that

at every stage of life whether you know

whether your family's growing up and LIF

home or whether you've got a house a

busy house full of children you know

just just not having encumbrances and

hindrances uh that come from a world

that says indulge in this and own that

and have this and before you know it

you're up to your eyeballs just

maintaining the lifestyle rather than

actually living it so good and I you I

think of that scripture in Corinthians

where it says you know everything is

permissible but not everything is

beneficial and so I think sometimes with

lent we're actually realizing hey

there's something that was permissible

it's not sin but maybe the my

relationship to it now is no longer

beneficial and so maybe it's become an

idol or getting a sense of life from

this in an unhealthy way not wrong to

enjoy stuff but there's an unhealthy

level of involvement in this thing and

so it gives us a chance to say hey maybe

this is permissible but it may not be

beneficial and so I'll just pull back

for this season and and allow my I guess

it to reorientate itself in my life and

sometimes that means we go back to that

thing in a healthier place and sometimes

it actually means something that when we

realized we were without it um our lives

were better and I know one of the things

that they really talk about a lot of

people who particularly social media but

particularly Twitter um I've never been

on Twitter but uh people who have

Twitter the statistics show your life is

demonstrably better when you get rid of

it almost instantly because of the way

the opinions work and the algorithms and

it's really designed to provoke you and

so sometimes there can be other things

like that in life that way she go I

thought I needed this and I got rid of

it and life actually got a lot better

and so you know in those cases it's

sometimes a clear sign we actually don't

need to go back to that thing ages ago

this you know this is a long time ago um

I used to have one of those um one of

those little handheld Tetris games you

know and I I would I spend a lot of time

on planes and sometimes you know if

you're on a plane if it's you know if

you're flying domestically somewhere and

it hasn't got a movie or if you're

flying internationally in all the movies

are things that you're just not

interested in I'd get this little Tetris

thing out and I would just sit there on

the plane just you know clicking away on

my Tetris and didn't think anything of

it you know there's nowhere in the Bible

where it says Thou shalt not play Tetris

but often as part of my Ministry I will

have you know a word of knowledge or a

word of Prophecy for someone and so like

I I would find myself like often I'll be

I'll be just there during the worship

and I'll be in a church maybe that I'm

visiting and you start hearing the Lord

speaking into the life of the church

church and I started realizing that

every word of knowledge or every

prophetic picture I had involved all

these things falling down and falling

into place just like the Tetris game so

like I would I would see I would see

someone and I'd be like I just feel I

want to pray for you and prophesy of you

and my word would be I just I just see

complicated things coming together and I

I see the Lord arranging and I started

realizing that oh my gosh this Tetris is

starting to get in the way of my ability

to prophesy so off it went and um

uh or I used to I used to drink a lot of

Diet Coke and um sometimes when you

travel you go to places where they don't

have it and so I would be like I I

remember being in um uh in Ukraine with

Seth and Diet Coke was not available and

I spent the whole time over there with a

headache so I'm like that's not helping

me that's got to go so you know it's

just just things like that even things

that you know they're just it's not

sinful but it's hindering you and and

and not having that as an encumbrance

not having you know like I don't I don't

want to I don't want to be saying you

know coming and visiting your church

what are your requirements well you

better have a Diet Coke and you better

have a coffee and I I need this and I

need a Tetris game you know like you

just let's not let's not have all that

stuff just keep it simple yeah so good

so just as we maybe bring this

discussion to a close uh I don't know if

you've got anything else to add uh I

guess the thing I really want to focus

on and finishing and and you can add any

extra thoughts but is that invitation of

the Lord like we have people that are

fasting for this particular season and

uh you know I just uh am just stirred

that it hey it's not really about what

you're fasting it's about a Heart of

Worship to Jesus do you maybe just want

to encourage Us in that as we close I

think when you when you fast when you

deny

yourself you're positioning yourself for

an invitation and um you know like so

there are people that are going hear

this they they they're fasting food so

they're hungry when you when you're

fasting food you're denying one appetite

to maximize the chance of increasing

another appetite that uh I I don't know

if it works like this but I I see it a

little bit like whacko you know the game

whacka all where the things when you

when you whack it down over here it pops

up over there and so if I if I whack

down my appetite for

food I find that the appetite will pop

up somewhere else and some of the times

when I have been the hungriest for

God and the times when I've heard his

voice the most clearly has been when I

have been limiting other appetites I'll

give you one example um a number of

years ago we went away as a family we

went away on holiday to a place uh in

Northland and we got there and we um we

we chose to have no entertainment

whatsoever nothing for us nothing for

the kids kids and so we were in this

beach house and it was completely silent

and I had withdrawal symptoms I like one

time my wife caught me out in the car

listening to the news because I was

addicted to the

news but what happened there is I

started finding that God was speaking so

clearly like I'd lie down to go to bed

and I'd be lying there and I'd hear God

speak so I get up go write it down yep

got it go back to bed be lying there

hear him speak and finally it was like

this went on for several days that we

were there and I was like wow this place

is this is bethl this is the this is the

house of God and he said no you're just

quiet because you've quietened down that

area you've sharpened up your ability to

hear over here because you've denied

that appetite this appetite will

increase and my experience has been that

whenever I have laid things down like

for example getting up early in the

morning and and I felt to spend really

about seven years of that in the morning

was almost entirely silent just sitting

in the window looking out waiting on God

pacing around on the street in the dark

no music no nothing just waiting and

listening not saying there's a formula

there but as God came to fill the void

created by what I had kicked out of that

space he was 100 billion times better

than what I laid down that we never lose

on that transaction so for you know for

what for whatever form of self-denial

people are doing for Lent we've got to

remember after after lent what's coming

Resurrection so what what what comes

following on from the season of

self-denial and then obviously you know

you've got Jesus going to the cross and

all that his his self-denial ultimately

there's Resurrection for him but also

ultimately for us and so he's he's

always is better and you know I'm of the

opinion you know Titus 213 says the

Blessed highest happiest hope of the

church is that Jesus will return and on

the day that he returns no one will look

up and say you were not worth it on that

day when we see him face to face he will

be a billion times better than we

imagined in our most wild moments of

ecstasy on the earth and if he's better

then then he's also better now you know

I used to have a uh a couple of friends

and we would just remind each other we

would remind each other from time to

time we would just look at each other

and go there is an answer for your

longing and the answer for your longing

is not something you can buy in a store

it's not some amount of money you can

accumulate the answer for your longing

is a man whose face shines seven times

brighter than the sun with eyes of fire

and and this this is Our Redeemer this

is our savior this is our captain our

King and this this this is the one this

is this is the prize for everything that

we would ever lay down wow that's so

great hey just as you were sharing about

those appetites I wondered if maybe you

would close them prayer for us but uh I

just had it on my heart maybe even if

you could pray into uh um sorry it's but

strange I telling you what to pray for

but I just thought you know those

appetites sometimes when we quench one

actually something else tries to rise up

as a not the appetite for the kingdom

but we replace something with something

else and sometimes that can happen for

us and I wonder if you would just pray

for us with those appetites that maybe

in particularly in this season is as

people are denying themselves that they

wouldn't say yes to another inferior

appetite but there would be a Grace to

say yes to the appetite for more of

heaven and and what God's

doing I I'll pray that and just uh

before I do that John Piper in one of

the books that I read he said he said

sin is where you run to when your

heart's not fully satisfied in god so

let's pray father I thank you for uh

thank you for my friend Aaron thank you

for his family thank you Lord for this

uh this church thank you Lord for the

life and the heart for you that every

person that hears this simple recording

has Lord I

pray that their hearts would be fully

satisfied in you I pray Lord as they set

aside time as they set aside appetites

as they set aside uh eating or or

whatever it is that they've laid down

lord I pray in that place that you would

meet them with your

grace and with your invitation I pray

holy spirit that you would that you

would wrap each person up that you would

cover and watch over this time that the

enemy would not be able to deceive or

divert in any way shape or form in

jesus' name and I ask holy spirit that

what people

receive from

you would be so far beyond anything that

they laid

down that they would even come to the

end of this time of

denial and going actually there are some

things I just don't need to go back to

father I pray that the heart of every

person

that hears this simple

recording would be fully satisfied in

you that Lord we would be people that

would truly say Lord you are

enough Lord I pray that you would that

you would bless them I pray that you

would protect them I pray that you would

turn away the works of the evil one in

Jesus name and that you would release

fresh anointing fresh baptism of the

Holy Spirit fresh uh ability to hear and

discern your voice oh God Lord let times

of refreshing come from the presence of

the Lord uh into this people into each

individual and into their families in

Jesus

name amen amen thanks for your time

Kristen and uh church family may you be

blessed in this season of

land

e

e for