Book of Revelation EPS 7

Chase: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Point Church Podcast. I'm here with Pastor Sam as we have been diving through the book of Revelation, chapter by chapter. And you know, at this point we're at chapter fifteen and eighteen. And that can can contain some of the strongest judgment language in revelations. So before getting into the and Babylon, I wanna address a bigger question that I think when people read this they will have and that one is if God is good and all powerful, why does he allow evil? I think we hear this a lot. And I think the bigger question with that is why does he allow it to continue? Right. Right. So this is known as the problem of evil. This is every religion has its sticking point that's very difficult for outsiders to understand. For Christianity, this is this is it. Like ha wait, you're saying that God is good and powerful and you know in charge of the universe, but he allows in perfect right in it. And he knows everything. So this is known as in seminary we called it how can an OOG God allow evil? These are the OOG is just the descriptors of God that we use, that He's omnipresent, so He's everywhere. Yep. That He's omniscient, so He's all powerful, and or omniscient is all knowing and omnipotent is all powerful, and He's good. So those four we know to be true of God from the scriptures and from the ways that God has introduced Himself and revealed Himself to us. Yeah. Yet so He's all powerful, He's good, He's all knowing. And he's everywhere, but so how how does evil exist? Like it does it escape his view that he's not able to stop it? Why does this happen? And the short answer is because in order for there to be love, there must be free will. In order for there to be free will, that allows for the possibility of evil. Love cannot exist without free will. Love cannot exist without a choice. God, in order to not create evil, would have made a world of robots where there's no choice. Yeah. You will serve me, you will do this. But he is a God of love. So in order to create a world and creation that chooses him, chooses love, has the possibility of not choosing him. And the higher the possibility for good, the higher the possibility or the lower the depths for evil. Mm. This is why the devil, an angelic being, has such depravity within him as a possibility because he had such heights. Yeah. Same with human beings. Yeah. In order to be at reflect the image of God, when we rebel against it, means that we can create havoc as well. So the problem of evil exists, but there is a way to understand it. Yeah, and I think a a question that arises with that though is if God knows that that is happening, which we do know, he knows that it's happening, and he has the power to stop it. Right. Why wait? Why wait? Yep. Why wait for evil to keep going and not stop it? Why not stop it now? Yeah. Right. Scripture gives us several answers, rather than one simple like bumper sticker answer. So God first allows for human agency. Mm-hmm. If God truly dealt with evil quickly, like the way we wish He would when evils happens to us, what would happen to us when we perform things that are when we do things that are evil? If God struck down evil doers right away, you and I would not live to see dinner time. I don't think anyone no world would It requires his patience in order for even those who are evildoers to come to repentance. That's part of it. The other thing is that he is able to take the pain. In the suffering, whether we did evil or not, something you know, like if you do evil, you're gonna experience consequences. You know, if you cheat on a spouse or steal from your company, there's consequences that are gonna happen and you're gonna have to deal with it. And yeah, you deal with it by looking in the mirror and saying, No one did this to me, I did this to myself. So there are consequences for it. But there's also the other side where we experience the consequences other people made. You were born into a broken family, let's say. Let's say you were born into a situation that you were born into a war torn nation. Yeah. You didn't do anything wrong, but you're experiencing the effects of evil. Yeah. God is able to use pain and suffering to bring about refinement and redemption and strengthen us. So that is also part of it that people don't like to hear it, especially in the West, especially in America. But pain and suffering often refines us and strengthens it. Yeah. So in a culture that runs from pain and suffering creates a pretty weak people. Yeah. But people who have endured greatly, like we refer to the greatest generation, are incredibly strong. Yeah. So God uses it to make us strong. The other one is that we know that God cares about evil and s some gods and other religions do not care. They do not care that their sufferers are worshiping. No. Odyssey is out right now. You know, and it talks about all the Greek gods. Mm-hmm. Like, I think it's Athena. I haven't seen it yet, but I know the story a little bit. Athena cares about Odysseus, but Poseidon is trying to rebel against him, and most of the gods are like pretty indifferent. Yeah. That's not our God. No. Our God is not indifferent towards our pain and suffering. In fact, he's the only God in any religion who enters into suffering. And so It can't be that he doesn't care. No. And that he enters into it and begins to move the arc of history towards a conclusion where evil is no more. Yeah. So what you're really saying is God's patience with evil is actually connected to his divine mercy. Yes. That when we experience evil or commit evil acts, it will often cause us to turn to him. whether we were the evildoer or experienced it, to learn how to give mercy or receive mercy. pe Peter talks about this in second Peter chapter three, where he says it seems like God is being slow in his justice, but he's trying to give time for everyone to repent, even the worst evildoers. Paul talks about this in Romans two, I believe, where he says it is God's kindness that leads to repentance, not God's wrath. It's his kindness that causes us to say, I desire more of you. If this is how you treat me on my worst day, then you can be trusted. Yeah. And so if if he immediately destroyed evil, no one would make it through. But how does he eliminate the evil in us or the evil that's been done to us without eliminating love, conquers all exactly. Yeah, it always does. And our next section is gonna was gonna be Exodus or was gonna be Revelation fifteen. But which is like a new Exodus. Yes. But you hit that really hard on Sunday. So I just encourage everyone who is listening to just go back and listen to the sermon 'cause that was hit pretty hard. But let's move into the where the bowls begin. Yeah. And some of this gets pretty intense. Right? Mm hmm. But a question from that is why does revelation describe God's judgment this way? Yeah. as like the purging and the plagues and things like that. Yep, yep, yep. Well, you see in Exodus what God is doing with those specific plagues in Exodus. So in some ways we have to echo Sunday. What God was doing in the plagues in Egypt was he was knocking down their gods one by one. There was a god of the Nile. Well, he turns the Nile into blood. That God's worthless. There was a God who had a frog head. He shows, I'm in charge of the frogs, I can make them do what they want. There's a god of livestock. Well, he kills the livestock, showing your God can't. So he's knocking them down one by one. In Revelation, he's really bringing that back in the same way to say there are no other gods but me. And you know this to be true. There and he's also trying to demonstrate how little control. the kings have how little control the emperors have over the earth, over creation. And he's like, I am the one who decides how many days you get on planet Earth. I'm the one who decides how many hairs are on your head. I'm the one who decides how this world will come to its conclusion. So he pours out these these bowls. Yeah. I th they're not literal bowls. I just want like Revelation is so So much figurative language that you can get easily tripped up on it. But what he's saying is he's not only pouring these out, it's more like he's revealing them. He's revealing the bloodshed that has happened. He's revealing the famines that's been caused by human rebellion. He's revealing the violence that we have done and how creation has been broken because of our rebellion. He's revealing these things. That's what's called revelation. It's not that he's necessarily creating evil. God cannot create evil, but He can reveal it. He can pull back the curtain and He can use it to bring about His ends. Yeah, I think a question that arises too though, with Revelation but also with Exodus is is the question of d does this mean that God loses his patience and becomes angry at a certain point? No. no, it does not. It in fact it shows that God's patience is beyond measurement. his response to persistent and unrepentant evil is patience but for a time. The evil will be dealt with, but he wants to give as much time for the evildoers outside of the demons and Satan, the evildoers who've been manipulated, human beings, to come to repentance. Because otherwise, if he relents to evil. Yeah. And gets down in the dirt with it, so to speak, then evil wins. Yeah. He fights fire with fire, he fights evil with evil, and that's not what happens. His grace is greater than sin. You know, he so he does not relent. His character is forever and ever. And amazingly, people still don't repent. And that's why to bring C. S. Lewis into the argument when he goes through his epic story. Of the great divorce, his quote that people bring out from that story is hell is locked from the inside. It's a decision over and over and over to reject God. I want nothing to do with you. Are you sure? Yes, yes, yes, yes, I'm sure. Okay. God will honor that choice. Yeah. But hell is locked from the inside. Yeah. And I and I hear people often say that they believe in this loving God, this God that we're talking about, but they struggle with the God. Who judges. Mm-hmm. So how do those fit together? Yeah. so a God who judge if if you had a God who didn't judge, then when there is evil and wrongdoing, you shouldn't care. Mm-hmm. If someone broke into your house, Chase, yeah, and robbed you and threatened your children, and you called the police, they're like, What We don't care. You told your family, who cares? No big deal. Even Megan, your wife, it's like, who cares? It just happens. Mm-hmm. Y you'd you would lose your mind. You'd be like, Am I crazy here? Right. Yeah. We all cry out for justice. Yeah we all cry we know this is broken. We know this is wrong. If there was a God who said, Who cares when evil happens to you? Then who cares if you do evil? Why should we care that there's children being put into armies in sub-Saharan Africa or like in sweatshops in East Asia. Who cares? Why is the it shouldn't matter to us. We it's not our problem. Deal with them. Judgment doesn't mean it's been so that word has been so perverted by a culture that doesn't want to be held accountable because they desire freedom and the ability to choose what they want. But what God is doing with judgment is saying These things will harm you and these things will h help you. So what he is doing is saying, it's not that I'm condemning you with judgment. That's how people have often conflated the two, but saying, this is wrong. This does not lead to human flourishing. In fact, this leads to brokenness and harm and heartbreak. Do not do this. Yeah. Any God who says, it doesn't really matter, no that God could not be judged as Does that sense? It does. And so judgment is actually necessary if evil matters. Exactly. A god who never judges evil isn't loving. No. He's not loving. Because it's he's projecting onto humans what we do. It's not my problem. Yeah. Your s who cares? It's not my problem at all. Yeah. Yeah. chapters seventeen and eighteen suddenly start talking about Babylon. Yeah. But ancient Babylon was long gone by John's time. Yes. It was gone. Yeah. So what does Babylon represent when you see this? Because again, it's revelation, so it's representing things. Right. So what does it represent? Yeah, because the audience who's who received this letter, which we know are the seven churches of Asia Minor, were like, Yeah, Babylon's not our problem. Rome is our problem. Like we're not worried about Babylon. No. Yeah. we're worried about Rome. Yeah. So Babylon is a w or was a real empire for a time. And they we're an enemy of God's people off and on through old testament. It came to an epic like it came to an apex when they're exiled to Babylon and Jerusalem is destroyed and it's you know they've been warned over and over, return to God, repent of your sins, or you're gonna be wiped out, basically like a repetition of the flood, but not as brutal, but saying, Hey, you're the ones committing evil and the only way I can st Hope you survive the evil you're committing is to carry you off and hit reset. Yeah. So Babylon comes from Genesis eleven. So I actually had a few people ask this question on church on Sunday. So if you're listening, this is for you. So you have you know, Adam and Eve. It's going good. Then it doesn't go good. And there's children of Adam and Eve. and specifically two boys that take, you know, not just taking from the fruit and leading to the fall, but Cain kills Abel. And it says like that Abel's blood cries out to God from the ground for justice. What we were just talking about. Mm-hmm. God does not murder Cain, but he does mark him. Then it says the violence just grows and grows and grows and grows, the bloodshed gets worse and worse and worse. Humans are getting worse, not better, as they drift further from God. So then he sends the blood or the flood to purge and just say, we need to restart again. So this is, you know, the beginning of Genesis. This is, you know, Genesis s seven, eight, nine. God makes a covenant with Noah. Never again will I do that for all of humanity. And then in Genesis eleven, you see that they are refusing to do what God told them to do in the Garden of Eden. Yep. The Garden of Eden it was multiply, subdue the earth, rule the earth with me. Yes. After the flood, okay, restart. Yeah. Rule the earth with me. Subdue the world. You know what I mean? Like go and spread out. Genesis eleven, you have the first you know, macro rebellion against God, where this is the Tower of Babel. Where they build the Tower of Babel and it says this, Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly. They used brick instead of stone and tar for mortar. Then they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city. Why? Why build a city? Because we want a tower that reaches into the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves, not Yahweh, but for ourselves. So there's internal pride coming out, and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth. So they're doing it to build a tower to reach God and to make a name for themselves and at the same time to not do what God told them to do. So this moment, this tower becomes, you know, in many ways a stand in. Hey, every time humans rebel against God and join forces to say, We'll shake our fists at you, God, you telling us what to do. We won't do it your way. We'll be conquerors on our own. He's like That's Babylon, that's Babylon, that's Babylon, over and over and over again. And he allows that to happen for a time. Yeah. But this is why Babylon is that placeholder because it goes all the way back to Genesis, like the first empire that really shook its fist at God after the flood. Yeah. So that's that's why it's used in that way. Yeah. And so you're saying that this story starts all the way back at the Tower of Babel. And so that means that Revelation 18 is the collapse of something that began in Genesis. Yes. Yes, exactly. So that's why to read Revelation as I'm not gonna say literal, 'cause it it like to say, he's talking about an actual empire called Babylon. Well, not in the first century, because Babylon didn't exist. Yeah. But you have to have read the story to understand what the last chapter is trying to tell you. Yeah. Is the placeholder. Of evil is finally being destroyed. Yeah. And you know, Revelation 17 in this doesn't describe evil as ugly. Babylon, right, is actually seductive. Seductive. Yeah. Why? something I tell people is if sinning doesn't feel good, you're not doing it right. If sinning didn't feel good, you wouldn't do it. No. Yeah. Yeah. Like if if getting drunk didn't feel good. Or doing drugs didn't give you a certain high or experience or pornography or sleeping with a boyfriend or girlfriend or getting rich, even if it meant if that didn't feel good, you wouldn't do it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's seductive because what it's trying to do is fulfill the desires that God gave you, but it's trying to fulfill the desires in an ungodly way. Yeah. And when it's in ungodly way, it doesn't last. Yeah. So i it it's like, hey, you know, you're hungry, come come eat this like piece of bread. Okay, well that's gonna fill you for a little bit. But if you have like a Thanksgiving feast, that's gonna fill you a lot longer and be a lot more fulfilling for your desire. But we choose sin, we choose the seduction of evil because it's instant gratification that feels good right now. Yeah. Which is why God says, Hey, these desires I gave you. But don't give in to them in ungodly ways. There are certain boundaries you should not cross. It's good to have money. It's good to earn a living wage. It's not good to steal. No. It's good to have a spouse that you sleep with. It's not good to go to a brothel. No. So there are godly ways and ungodly ways to have the desires of God met. One leads to life and one leads to death. Yeah. Yeah, I think the comparison of Babylon like to back then is still can be surprisingly modern today. Like you were just describing. Yeah. it's the devil is not very innovative. No. He doesn't have to be. He doesn't have to be 'cause it works every time. It's like I'll tempt you with money, power, sex or sex. Like that's basically the main three. Yeah, fame. I mean, weren't you Tell us a little bit about the thing you were you and I were talking about with Billy Graham and that covenant that he signed, you know, to avoid those pitfalls. And I could get it r a little bit of it wrong, but the main point is that before Billy Graham had started his big ministry, before he got up and I mean, I think he has preached to more people than anyone ever in history. Yeah, I think so. Like l like live and in person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but he made a covenant with all the people that were closest to him that he would never know. The amount of money that came in. Yes. And that he would never be alone with a woman in a room besides his wife. Right. I also heard he wouldn't even he didn't want to know how many people were in the audience. No, he would no numbers. No numbers. No numbers ever. Mm-hmm. And it was just like he even had the T V taken out of his hotel. He didn't want to see commercials for it or anything like that. He wanted it and it was the same with Samaritan's purse when that was getting rolling. So it's Because it's like if I can cut off the three pitchforks. Yeah. Like the three ends of the pitchfork that the devil comes at me with, you know, fame, power, and sex that the de devil comes at me with. Yeah. Then I'm gonna spare my soul a lot of pain. Well, and that's where we talk about of like, you know, w me and you especially like we're always like, we love this pastor. We're not Praying for their downfall, but we're like, I hope there's not a scandal. I know. Like we're all we're so jaded these days. So jaded. But Billy Graham was one of the ones that never really I mean, he had one with the politics or whatever, but he learned from that. He learned but like everything else, there was never sex, money, fame, no, nothing, power. Mm mm. Then it 'cause he made this covenant. Right. Whereas today it's with people and pastors focus more on How can I build an outside persona in a platform and use the gift that I have of speaking or, you know, whatever I'm championing? But behind the scenes, it's almost like they're trying to run PR to sweep Sims under the rug. Whereas I I won't say any names on that one, but one I will compare as a more modern Billy Graham is like Eugene Peterson who obsessed over going in the opposite direction. Like he wasn't an influencer in any way. He was like famous on accident. You can say the same of Tim Keller. You could say the same of a lot of you know, we even talked about Rich Mullins last week, just a personal conversation that yeah, he was like, I just want to be paid what a working man in America is paid. And he died having no idea how much money he made. Yeah. Because he was like, I it's gonna it'll wreck me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's true. But as we keep moving on and Revelations I had a question on this one. Revelations eighteen four. Mm-hmm. A question that I think people ask. We should read it. Yeah. do you want to read it? No, you should read it. You've got their good podcasting voice. No, go ahead. Okay. Okay. It says, then I heard another voice from heaven say, Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues. So right there, come out of her, my people. Mm-hmm. What does that mean for Christians? Yeah. So he's talking about Babylon, you know, describing the city, the empire of Babylon as a woman, just as he describes the new Jerusalem as a bride, as a bride of Christ. So God's people lived inside Rome, just as God's people where we pastor live inside Dayton, just as God's people live in Iraq, or they live in Argentina. You know, they l we have to live somewhere geographically. Yes. So it's not exactly like go out and buy I mean you can if you want, but it's not saying insulate yourself by going to buy a hundred acres of property and only hang out with your family so that you never get impure. That's kind of a movement these days. It's not wrong, but I think it's a misunderstanding of what we're called to do. Yeah. it's about allegiance. Will you worship the idols? of your city or of your area, your nation, or will you hold faithful to Jesus? This is why again in the actual Babylon, Daniel's friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, it's such a big deal. They refuse to bow down to the golden statue of King Nebuchadnezzar. Because they're like, hey, we'll serve in your court. So we're basic we work for the government. Yeah. You know, we've been carried off, but we're not gonna cross that line. Yeah. And that's where Christians need to have wisdom and be discerning. Say, yeah, we're Americans. Like I'm an American. I I live in the state of Ohio. I pay taxes to Ohio and to the United States. I pay city taxes. But I'm not going to bow down to the idols of America. Yeah. I won't do it. Yeah. Like that's where Christians need to say, This I accept, this I don't. Yeah. And it requires discernment and wisdom. Basically wherever Babylon crosses the line into idolatry, we have to reject it. So like your big statement, if I could pare it down, is Christians can live in Babylon without becoming Babylon, right? Yeah. Yeah, without becoming Babylonians, basically. And so I think that is though, you kinda hit on it, that's an important question for Christians today is how do we live faithfully inside a culture that doesn't share our allegiance to Jesus? I think it's great that, you know, we're talking about like You know, you have to and discern, but how do you actually really do it? Mm-hmm. Jesus says, be in the world but not of the world. Mm-hmm. Well, in some ways it's like, how can you be in the world if you run from it? You're you're putting your you're shining a light and then covering it up so that no one knows that you're actually a Christian. Yeah. Okay? Like that's that's great that you have the light of Christ, but how about those who weren't born into your home? How about those who were were never brought to Sunday school? How are they gonna know about Jesus if we don't go? Yeah. And I think that's a temptation. I'm not even saying it's evil or wrong. I just think it's i i it's it's too short sighted. Like we have to go out into a dark world because we are the representatives of Jesus. We are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. When people see us living our lives, they should see the spirit dwelling in us. So don't conform to the world. Send your kid to you know, to make that decision for school. Yeah. Find where you can work in a way that's, you know, ethical to make money. But don't conform to the patterns of this world is what Paul says. Yeah. So say, okay, like I'm gonna go work at a Fortune five hundred company and send my kid to public school. No no problem. No sin. But if at that public school you're teaching your child to go along with the ways of the world or maybe your company is stealing money and you're helping them do it, then you're no different. No. Like you need to be light in those places. Yeah. And that word money. I think well I know Revelation eighteen spends a surprising amount of time talking about merchants and money. Mm-hmm. Why is that? Well, it's the same reason Jesus, the number one topic he talked about was money. Mm-hmm. They said something like twenty five percent of Jesus' teachings were on money and things. Yeah. Can you imagine if pastors talked about money and things twenty five percent of the time? You'd have an empty you would not have many people coming back, but you'd have empty. Because it's not that money and things are inherently evil, but they can quickly become false idols of worship. Yeah. You know, they can very quickly. So that's why he's like, Beware. It's it's yeah, if you're expecting something to be like let's say you're cooking chicken, you're not going to eat the chicken that looks raw. that's wrong. That doesn't look good. What might get you sick is the chicken that isn't quite cooked enough. It's when it's close enough to deceive you to thinking it's okay. That's why he preaches against money stuff. Because it looks close enough. It's God's creation, it's God's design, but it's just a little bit off. Yeah. And if you consume too much of it, you will get sick. And there's even a disturbing item at the end of this merchant's list of humans being sold as slaves. As commodities. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean Yeah. It's just but it's unequivocally known throughout history it was Christians who ended. the movement of slavery, wherever it I mean, it still continues, unfortunately. But the ones who began that campaign of ending slavery were Christians because they knew every human being was made in the image of God. And sadly slaves are still in the world today. But Christians have forgotten that we are the ones who should be championing this and instead it's been picked up by the world through social justice movements which are again not inherently evil but they've forgotten their moral, ethical, like foundation. So yeah, God comes immediately against that and says, like, yeah, that's the pinnacle of my creation. That's the reflection of me and you're enslaving it and profiting off of it. Yeah. And that's a problem. Yeah. And you know, Revelations asks not only what we kind of believe, but what systems we're participating in. Yes at that point too. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it calls again for wisdom and discernment. Yeah. What are we spending our money on or not spending our money on? What do we worship? What do we offer self control on? How do we practically live different in the world? Yeah. Not to say we're better, but to say, Yeah, no, I don't participate in that. I don't of one that comes to mind 'cause I just did a wedding two days ago was the bachelor party of the groom was not the worldly bachelor party. Mm he didn't spend money on propping up, you know, the sex industry by going to a strip club. Instead, they went whitewater rafting in West Virginia and spent time actually in prayer. Sounds like a great time. You know what I mean? Sounds so it's not like God's against spending money you're going out and His creation, but it's like, but don't spend it when it causes someone else's, you know, enslavement or propagating evil. So live differently. Yeah. I and I think, you know, one of the hardest parts about following Jesus, at least to me, is that sometimes evil seems to work. Yeah. Yeah. Like if Babylon wasn't an empire, it wouldn't be a big deal. Like it it's wealthy, it's powerful, it's influential and Yeah. It's very populated sometimes. There's a lot people in it. And it really sounds like God's people kind of sometimes suffer while Babylon prospers. Yes. Psalm seventy three wrestles with the same thing. It's like how long, O Lord, will the wicked prosper? And you know, when will there be justice done? And the fifth seal that we read about was talking about that's like how long, O Lord, until your justice reigns. Yeah, and what's Revelation's answer to that? I had a seminary professor say God bats last. He was a big Yankees fan from the Bronx and he just said God bats last. You don't know the end of the game until God goes up to bat. And so, says Revelation eighteen says Babylon falls. I mean like period. It says it falls almost immediately. what looks so permanent can disappear overnight. And the only thing that will last is God's kingdom. So let's return to our original question here. Yeah. Why does God allow all of this that we have been talking about to continue? Yeah. Right. So before, you know, the introduction of Judaism and then the fulfillment in Christianity, world religions and thinking on history of the world was that everything is cyclical. Mm-hmm. It's just we're in a cycle. We're in a cycle over and over. one of the gifts of the Jewish faith was showing that the arc of history is moving towards a conclusion. Mm-hmm. So it is moving towards something. God is giving the opportunity now, before we get to the last chapter, for people to repent, to come out of Babylon, to turn away freely from their sin. and it's not something that you have to be a part of a certain nation to come out of. Anyone can come out of their sin and come to him. So, so he's allowing it. There's an expiration date. Make no mistake. It's not gonna like last forever. There will be a cutoff date. But he is allowing until that day as many people to come out of their sin willingly, and this is why we preach the gospel and why we can't just cover up our light and stay hidden. We have to go oop I pushed my mic. We have to go out and tell people the good news and come out of Babylon. And so I think that goes into the statement that Christianity doesn't answer suffering by saying everything's happening right now is good. It's both and like like we talked about, like we talked about last week. Like in that Lord of the Rings example. Like the ring had been destroyed, but the Shire was still in danger. Yeah. Did that mean that they were like, Well, the ring's destroyed, let's not defend the Shire, because it'll be taken care of. No, they like they drove out evil from the Shire. And that's what we're called to do as well. Like Jesus has won, but we're still partnering with him to drive out evil from our relationships, from our hearts, from our homes, from wherever we are. Yeah. So yeah, the battle continues. So let me drop this huge question on you that I think everyone asks, right? If you're a Christian or not. Where is God when innocent people suffer? Yep. He's right there in their suffering. again, we said this earlier that God entered into suffering. And that means that he weeps. Yes. That he cares. Yep. That while he will resurrect the world, just as he resurrected Lazarus from his tomb, he still weeps in the meantime. And he doesn't stay far off, he draws near. But we don't know in a snapshot what he's doing about evil. It's only when we see a movie, if you will. Yeah. Not judge it by a photo of single moment where is God, but watch the trajectory, mm-hmm, look back on your life story. He is there. Yeah. In ways that you don't see right now. Yeah, and with that answer, it means that Jesus doesn't suffer answer suffering from a distance. No. Betrayed, he was beaten, he was broken, he was tortured, he was crucified, and completely humiliated in every way in order to say, I've been where you are, and I'm here now, and I'll take you also where I've been, and you have not yet been. Yeah. And so the cross shows us both that God takes evil seriously and that he can redeem it as well. And he's the only one who can redeem it. Yes, exactly. It shows us not only how our story ends when we put faith in him, but how the story of the world will end when evil is eradicated in our lifetime or in our children or great, great, great. We don't know. It could be thousands of years. But there will come a day when evil will be no more and we will live in peace and harmony. Yeah. And so I think this brings up another question that people probably have is that if God promises to judge evil, like we've been saying, then how should that change our way as Christians, people, that we respond to people who have hurt us with evil? Yeah. there is a line in I think it's Romans five that my wife and I will quote to each other when we're having like a difficult time with person and it's just simply the phrase, in view of God's mercy. Mm-hmm. Because the rest of the sentiment of that chapter is in view of God's mercy, what he's done for you, when you were God's enemy and he died for you and loved you and forgave you, this is how you are to love one another. So, we remember that we're not the ones to take vengeance. Vengeance is the Lord's. that he is the only true judge and he'll he'll sort it out. We don't have to do that. We don't have to explain to him justice. No. He's got it. Yeah. And we can forgive without pretending evil doesn't matter, but we also know that there's a power greater than evil. It means we trust the judge. Yeah. In the end. We trust it. Yeah. And I think this too, so we've been talking about when Babylon falls and all this and that there's celebration. Mm-hmm. But Why does heaven celebrate Babylon's fall? Mm hmm. It's not that people it's not that like Christians should ever enjoy, yes, they got what was coming to them. Because all of us are trying, if we truly understood the Bible, to avoid what would have come to us. Yeah, exactly. Mixed up of are we being like are we celebrating like Right, right, right. they got what was coming to them and I'm better than them. No, it's yeah, right. That's not the heart posture. No. It's that We celebrate that oppression is over, exploitation is over, that violence is no more, and that evil is done. That is a beautiful thing to celebrate. Mm-hmm. And so when revelation celebrates judgment, then it can actually be celebrating liberation. Yeah, like freedom. Like freedom. When True freedom. Right. To revisit Exodus just for a little bit. When the Israelites got to the other side of the Red Sea, the first thing they do is sing a praise song and dance and you know, they're they're just jubilant. Yeah. And because they're free. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Revelation ultimately gives us two cities. It gives us a choice. Yeah. Yeah. A choice between Babylon, called the Great Prostitute, in the New Jerusalem, which is described as the bride of Christ. So yeah. Yeah. We're given a choice. Given a choice. And so Revelation is asking us really which city that we're building our lives on. Exactly. Right, right. Do you want to be seen as one who chases after many different idols and gods and can't find satisfaction anywhere? And so you have to keep chasing, keep pursuing, and your heart is empty and broken at the same time. Or do you want to be like a bride who has known one? To truly heal them and is enough for them and is fulfilled in the true love of their soul, which is God alone. So which one do we want to pick from? Yeah. Which one do we think actually leads to life? Yeah, which one looks good, which one doesn't look good? 'Cause all of us have tried Babylon. Yeah. Make no mistake. Like anyone who's like, I've never Okay. You're my We've all been in Babylon. How did it go? Honestly, judge your life. How did Babylon treat you? Yeah. Did it chew you up and spit you out? Well, welcome to the club. Yeah. That's not what God does. No. Come to this. Yeah. Yeah. And so final little question here. For someone that is looking at war, there's wars wars all over. There's injustice all over. There's abuse all over. We talked about about two weeks ago. Yep. About right here in our backyard suffering. There's Tragedy and people are asking God, why aren't you doing something? Yep. What would Revelations fifteen through eighteen say to that? Well, God has done something is the first thing. That first of all, he didn't stay off, far off. He came close, he emptied himself, he entered into the human story in order to rewrite not just the world story, but we are invited to have our story rewritten as well. So God sees the problem. He hears our cry, he cares about us, he's patient so that even the perpetrators could come to repentance and be changed. He is at work in ways we don't yet see. Yep. And in the end, he will make everything right. Yeah. And so evil gets a chapter in the story, but it does not get the ending. Correct. Correct. That's why it is so critical that like we talk about when the devil is destroyed, that there's still two more or there's still yeah two more chapters of Revelation because life goes on without evil. Without evil. It'll be nothing more than a memory. That's it. That's it. So that will be closing us out today for this podcast. So we are thankful wherever you're listening in from and just following along, we're so blessed to get to do this and we can't wait to see you next week.