#GOTDialog 001: Why I Gave Up on Church | Tan Chung Liang

So we've got we've got great video editors here. You have to your snip,

snip your slip how you can. So I'm gonna have to do something

here now, so I'm gonna parafrage everything. You just say here, you

go for it without the names so that they can probably edit from this point

forward and actually put this online later on something and that rend the and then

but here, just go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,

okay, yes, sir, Hey there, I'm Andeo, the pastor

of Genesis Church. This is a podcast and you just tune into the Generations

on Tuesday edition Genertions on Tuesday or go ot is an alternative church experience is

church but a little different. No platform, no propriate, no one creature,

but rather the focus is on Christ community and conversations. We have a

special heart for those who are in the creative arts, entertainment, media,

music, FM B and similar communities, and we want to provide a safe

space to explore and discover faith in Jesus, but in a not so conventional

way. We hope you'll be inspired impacted by today's dialogue where we keep it

real, raw and relevant on topics that matters. So let's get right into

it. Be blessed tonight. We're gonna talk about quite a juicy topic.

But I must clarify that it's not just a topic we cannot with because it's

clickbit. We didn't come up with the topic because that will draw the crowd.

We didn't come with the topic because it's controversial. Maybe that's what it

looks like out there on social media when we when we put it up.

But no, it's not why. That's not why we did it. But

that's not why you're doing it. We're doing it because it's a story that

needs to be told, and it's Liam's story, and the story that he's

gonna talk about tonight is why I gave up on church. I'm not sure

whether he left the church or what that means, but we'll find out.

She definitely gave up on it, and we want to find out what does

that mean. So we're doing this because it's liang story, and we suspect

it's the same story for many out there too. Maybe it's some here tonight,

maybe those whill be watching this later on. So we want to talk

about that. So let's get straight into it. So it's a dialogue it's

not preaching. It's not teaching, it's us talking. Uh, and so

please feel freely young. We've been friends for a very long time, so

there's no always here. We're just we're just talking. Yes, sir and

Liang, you come from the best city in not just Malaysia but the world.

Yes, where is that? Bro? We come from a place called

Clang. Yes, Clang is the best. I mean, you're gonna know

this that. There's a reason why they call it the Klang Valley. It's

not the Pja Valley. It's valley just messing around, Okay. So Lang's

from Clang and then we explain some things or not. I don't know,

but it's from clan. I'm from Clang, so I can testify it is

a great place to grow up in. It really makes you a real man.

It makes you a survivor, yes, a warrior, it does,

it does all right? Cool? So, uh, we went to the

same school, we did different years. So primary school same uh, secondary

school say yes, yes, and then college different. Okay. So since

we're from the same hometown and pretty much the same primary school, high school.

So I know you for a long time and as far as I've known

you, You've always been Christian. To me, I never knew you as

not a Christian. So to me, you have been Christian in your life

and you're pretty much a church boy. And I know in summery you've been

to You've been part of many different churches throughout your life. But you please

describe to us your childhood. You know, growing up as a church boy.

What was that like? Okay? Okay, cool? So I think

growing up? Okay, I came. I come from a very orthodox Brethren

circle harmony. If you all know what orthodox means, how do I know

what Brethren means? Okay, So let me clarify. So I come from

a small church called Max Attendance seventy five eighty. Pretty much everybody knows everybody

else. You will know whose mother, whose father, how many kids they

got, who's in what year for Sunday School. That kind of a setup.

So it's small, it's cozy, you kind of know everybody. So

my mom and my dad were leaders in the church, and so by default

you had to set an example. So served in a church choir, paid

guitar, paid bass, saying, the whole works. So that was my

upbringing. It was strict to the point where my parents said, you cannot

listen to circular music. That was the thing back in the day. So

I had to drown my sorrows in Stephen, Curtis Chapman and DC talk.

So on the odd occasion that you know, I I switched on the radio,

it was always frowned upon and things of the nature love. So that

was the kind of upbringing I came I came from, and then secondary school

I I decided, no, this is not for me. I wanted to

go out and explore. And so hence being twenty od years in one church,

I branched out to So I drive down in my beat up oven back

in year two thousand and one, drive down a Federal highway go to which

is where I met some of you. Here was under the mentorship of this

amazing lady cop Uh. And so there was that began the second cycle of

my of my church going journey Uh and then from then into into I was

in for about a year, a year and a half, I was in

for about three years. I've been in generations for a year and a year

and then some But yeah, so so it's it's my life has always been

framed by a journey with a church. And that's that's pretty much ship who

I am. That's pretty much shiped my thoughts. It's pretty much shipped my

actions. Uh, which lends itself a bit of a bit of a bit

of a backstory as to like why all that just poof and then move on?

So more on the next we've woken and I found out not too long

ago that you are quite done with church. There was a time where you're

like, you know what I've been doing small church, I've done all kinds

of church and the idea. I'm quite done with church, right, I

think, if I'm not mistaken, I remember you saying to me once I'm

probably never going back to a church again, or something to the effect.

Correct. Okay, And that's how the topic came out tonight. Yeah,

So I myself, I'm curious, like Leam, how do you go from

church boy to I gave up on this thing called church? Could you share

a bit of a sort of the backstory, backstory, some monumental milestones that

led to that place. Okay, so this is where this is where it

gets real. Okay, I mean we talk about alternative church experience. This

is no host, but our name names. If I have to face the

consequences, if I have to, this is what's a So I think it

was a long time coming. My foundational years were brought up in a very

orthodox kind of setting, rules, regulations, memorized the Bible kind of a

setting, and so that was all I knew until I was about twenty.

And then I went into and I served and I worshiped team and did missions

and everything. And I was there for about ten o years and it was

a total paradigm shift. But I'm the kind of guy that adepts. I

want to learn what's out there, and I think me going to different churches

was very much a part of the search. So I know some of you

out there, you're going to different churches. It's the same journey. You're

searching, you're finding what fits. I mean, sure it could be because

it's all the hype, but maybe it doesn't resonate with you. Then it's

not you. You know, it could be you know whoever it could be.

I'm dropping names because you know, I'm like Rickid's survey right now and

the Golden Doves, I don't care, but but but pretty much. But

but that's pretty much where where I went through. I would like to also

clarify I believe in God still. Okay, So you're like, who is

this? So I still pray? We still we still we still say grace

at the table every now and then with the family when I'm home. So

I just want to be able to tell y'all it's it's a church thing as

opposed to a God thing. You're following me, You're cool, okay.

So I think in that regard, it was all that led to a head

when I was or pretty much right after I left. So I was in

church all this while and I joined FMB, and then there was absolutely no

chance I could get into church on a regular basis. But I still kept

in touch. You know, I've still got friendship from stick of friendship from

playing. So I think that was that that part of me never left.

And then one day rumors surface of the pasta that I was serving under.

To cut a very long story short, at a scandal until today, until

today, some people say, oh, right, wrong to me, I

mean, yes, it could have been, but to me personally, it

it rocked my faith. I remember sharing some of you all were standing at

the back. Uh, my faith was shaken. It's true. Sometimes you

you talk about, oh, you know, uh, look at God,

look at Jesus, look at the cross, don't look at people. But

I think it's a bit too simplistic of an a push to say, oh,

you know, just put your eyes on Jesus. You know, men

will fall. But you know, when you follow someone that that close,

and you take, you take instructions, you take orders, you follow tells

you tells you to jump cliche how high that kind of a thing. And

then there's some that totally goes against everything that you've been thought. There's something

that goes against everything that stood for and it does put you in a position

to start questioning, now, what what do I represent? Where do I

stand? Who is to me? What is our relationship? Now? God,

are you real? All real questions that you start asking. So that

was the first. Right up till there, my faith was rock solid.

So that was as hard as soon as you can be. That was the

first crack. Subsequently, it cracked further over. Mco MCOH was the perfect

storm of all kinds of nonsense that could go wrong went wrong. I'm just

gonna take you back to a little bit. We saw videos of Kenneth Copeland.

Remember that dude, COVID be gone. No didn't. We had.

So there was one scenario. We had the whole Ravi Zacharaya scandal, and

there was someone all of us looked up to, you know, Hair Guy

Institute and the whole works. If you all don't know Ha Guy Institute,

that's something that he set up. Uh. So we are giants of the

faith who you looked up to for the longest times, shaped your faith.

People you looked up to, people who you when you were endowed. These

were the guys who are guiding lights. And then Toom giants for Tom Giants

for Tom Giants for and then you know you had you had the whole Hill

Song scandal. Uh, misappropriation of cash and all that. So so so

many today, But in that period of time, lockdown happened over almost two

years. In that two years, seeing one thing after another, I distinctly

remember telling my wife for you, I'm done. I can't do church no

more. This is not for me. But I want to clarify when I

said that it was it was a statement with regards to the church. It

was not a statement of like God, I don't believe in you, in

you anymore. I was rocked. Sure, my faith was rocked. Sure

in people, Yes, but they didn't have they didn't have they didn't have

an effect on my relationship with God. Yes, of course I started doubting

more. It's a real thing. I started doubting more. I felt,

maybe this isn't for me. God, are you there? Maybe you're just

another universal being that all atheists claim to to to to talk to. But

I've come up from that with a very distinct mindset. There is a God,

This God loves me. The people who handled everything God's affairs on God's

green earth or well, let's green these days, I'm messing it up.

That's my stand. So yeah, great, So this is it is?

So you grew up Christian, Yes, from childhood. You've been to all

kinds of churches since you were a kid, very conservative ones where you're not

even allowed to listen to the radios, not even secular music, to much

more vibrant churches. You've been to small churches, large churches. I think

you will also acknowledge that growing up in church have shaped you as a Christian

as a believer, told you all you know about your faith, the Bible

all this while and things were going well, and then you grew up.

You're an adult and having put so much faith in your church leaders. Right,

and this all backstory. You already said church leaders and sometimes even leaders

fail. Sometimes even Christian leaders fail. Sometimes they fail, maybe because they

are consistent with their words, or sometimes they don't keep their promises, or

sometimes they do other things. You know, maybe there's moral failure or whatever.

Right, and I think you experienced that, you have experienced something like

that that a leader you looked up to, followed, served under pretty much

trusted yep, yep. And of course we can't, we don't. Only

God knows what really happened, did not have true but your trust was betrayed.

And that was when you were betrayed. When your trust was betrayed by

that leader that you once trusted so much. I think that's when you said,

the cracks start to happen there, crack being your trust, your belief

in church and faith and faith started to crack. And they cracked more during

the m c o uh to the point where I think we met in twenty

twenty two one those those days. Yeah, you told me I'm done with

church. H I'm still Christian, I still believe in Jesus. I have

my faith, but I'm not sure I have faith in church anymore, and

so I'm never going to be a part of it again, you think.

And when I heard that, I thought, Wow, how many more out

there like you who would describe themselves as I'm Christian, I believe in Jesus.

I have no problems with Jesus the Bible. I mean normal problems like

oh, you know, if God is good, why is it evil?

And stuff like that. We also ruggle with you still Christian, But some

experiences in church, maybe how church is done or how some church leaders or

people behave. Can I make you lose that lost that confidence, lost that

trust, lost that whatever I used to have, Like, okay, can

you talk a bit about about that, like when those cracks started to appear?

Right? What was so painful? What was so impactful or what was

so disappointing about those experiences that led you to the place where you can actually

say I believe in Jesus, I get on church. Okay. So that's

that's a very rare question. And I believe any backslider, anybody who was

thinking about leaving church, these are some questions that you will you will reflect

on. So I think it was. It was painful for me, especially

because it was my entire existence. Grew up in a church, parents Christian,

everybody went to Sunday School, you know, just the whole works,

right into college serving a Christian fellowship. The whole works came up, did

different churches. So I don't have a problem with the way the churches run

theologically. So by in so saying, what that means is I've been through

the breadon circles. I've accepted that. That's that's what they teach, that's

who they are, that's the identity to the AOG system. I know who

what it's all about, and I've accepted it. I've I've followed through,

I've gone, I've gone under leadership from there, and I understand. So

in that sense, it's not a scenario where oh no, they don't resonate

with me. So it's not a me thing. It's not oh, I

come before the church kind of thing. So I was I adapted. So

I think the cracks form primarily because you know, leaders fail, faith eroded.

But it made me question and it's very and it's very basis. It

made me question my very existence because my homework was church. I'd say eighty

five eighty eighty five percent of my friends are from church, and and by

by by approxy the church net wargla, Oh I'm from sib I'm from whoever.

So so it made me wonder where I stood because I had I didn't

have that former ecosystem that I used to have. Do I still belong in

church? Do I not? Where do I stand? Am I still questioned?

Am I not? So? I think this was some of the the

more the more painful paths that I had to take in answering where do I

really stand. I'm comfortable where I am now. I'm very comfortable where I

am now. But during that period of X number of years, it was

it was trying, it was painful, it was it was hard to determine

what my identity was. Am I still Christian? Am I still a son

of God? Do I still go to heaven and all? That's what the

repercussions last. So, so that was to me that was the most painful

bit. So it's a question of whether it still belong. Yeah, So

actually it was a question of who am I? Who am I? Not?

Identity? So much of your identity is from drawn from being in church.

So maybe it's a question of like, if I don't go to church,

do I still belong to? Yeah? Right? So if I don't

go to a physical church in a building or go every week to display Sunday,

and I still out of the body of Christ? Right, do you

have answer for that? Now? Where I am? Now? Yes,

I am. I am very much a part of the Body of Christ in

a non conventional slash alternative church kind of way. So I think I think

I think where we are run now in twenty twenty four and beyond, I

think I think lifestyles change, personalities change, pop culture changes. Who we

are being fed by our environment, we change. So I think I think

having this alternative church kind of a format speaks to me. It also it

also helps me to to feed spiritually. So I think I think in that

regard it's helped. But I will consider this an alternative church ministry church arm

as opposed to like, you know, church in its in its former framework.

Shall we say, okay, so so what are your So let's batch

a little bit. Yeah, you now believe that I can not be part

of a conventional traditional church setting where I go every weekend and I'm part of

the production of a weekend church service or part of the program, and still

at the same time still be able to be part of the Body of Christ

because the Body of Christ is not characterized by its meetings or its buildings,

programs or program Okay, so we know that, and you're you're now currently

part of a church expression that is not weekend not production based. You mean,

on a weeknight you gather around tables. Instead of one preacher preaching to

everybody, you have several preachers around the table preaching from their experiences, their

lives if they are reading of the Word. So what about this they're part

of Now that that works for you? Yep? And what about the other

version they didn't work for you? Can you make a comparison? Okay?

Generally Okay, we're talking about this as in Generations on Tuesday. Yeah,

okay, his expression and the expression yeah, ken, so context wise,

let me just let me just uh, let me just bring it up to

speech. So context wise, Generations on Tuesday came about, or rather,

my involvement in Generations on Tuesday came about because Andy, as an old friend,

had a vision that he needed he wanted to do something uh a,

that was there was different, there was unorthodox from the regular the regular church.

And I remember you also mentioned it was in a mall, and so

I brought him here before while dis place was still being renovated, came to

see. So this whole time I treated it as ministry. So this is

my ministry. We are coming you guys into a space, providing a space,

being in a sense the host with the most kind of a scenario.

So that's ministry as opposed to me joining a church in a way, I'm

blessed church came to me so so for that, I'm very grateful. But

yeah, so I would I would view this as me doing ministry in a

personal capacity, helping a fledgling church take flight, set roots kind of a

scenario. So that's pretty much where it is. Like, So that's this

as opposed to you know, the Gyinnomos Behamorth that is a regular church where

you know, full on productions, full on programs, hierarchy and pastoral teams,

hierarchy in worship teams, ushering teams, packing attendance, people wearing vests

and jackets, that kind of set up. So that was that was something

I came from that is something that that is something I left to be here.

So that's pretty much right. I have nothing against production or overproduction per

se. I also, in the same breath do not have anything against hierarchy.

Per se. It works for some. I'm just telling you, it

just didn't work for me, that's all. Why Why do you work for

you? Like I think? Okay, that's a good question. The way

a church is run, not generations, the way the shameless plug, the

way a general church is run mirrors very much how a corporate entity is run.

You've got people in management roles. They may not say management roles,

but you have people in managerial positions and head and henceforth managerial job scopes.

So all it mirrors that. And then the only thing that differs from the

corporate entity is how you embed a spiritual element. Sunday church prayer meetings,

Wednesday, holy communion every now and then. Cell groups cool, but in

every other sense of the word, in every other sense of the term,

it mirrors a corporate entity. So over time it was it was the overreaching

arm of the of the corporate side that didn't sit well with me. You

must hit KPI for attendance, your cell group Okay, you must grow by

x percentage otherwise, you know, advise you don't hit target for example,

and things of the nature. So it was it was KPIs, it was

set goals, it was it was board meetings and how you had to be

answerable and bought meetings for finances and it works for some. I'm not saying

that's entirely wrong, it just didn't sit so well with me. So this

so this is, this is where, this is where this is home for

me? Yeah? Great, okay, So since you mentioned generations a lot,

just now, uh for for something maybe watching this or listening to this

for the first time. Yeah, uh. And maybe the impression of generations

is that we only meet on Tuesdays and this is all we have. May

I take this opportunity to say that we do we do me on Saturdays as

well. That's that's our weekly. That's that will be as close to conventional,

as close to productions supposed to template as possible. By having said that,

we also are trying not to be so uh. Is that hierarchy is

the structure? I think it's necessary. There is structure, There is some

kind of hierarchy. There is management and things like that. Uh to a

certain necessary point. Okay, right, I think I think what may start

becoming warbbly is when it becomes over extended or overdone. Uh. And being

a new fledgling church as described, we have an opportunity with this being a

blank canverse, we can paint on it how we believe God envisions it.

But you know, we also have this Tuesday thing as another expression because there

may be people out there, maybe like you, like yourself, that believes

in Jesus, wants to have a community to grow with and discover faith with

and to grow faith with, but just can't fit into the model the correct

that we can just model. So hopefully this can be helpful. Okay,

I just want to add to that. So again I have you know,

people who go to the regular behem of churches, go with God, Peace

be with you. But but I do know there is a cluster and grow

in cluster of people who I think the right was disillusion disillusion with that setup,

who don't relate or who don't relate, don't want to relate, don't

need to relate. Take a pic with with that version of a church maybe

because you know KPIs don't sit well with you and you don't and you feel

it's it's not the way that you foresee a ministry being run, then it's

up to you. So this these are decisions purely made as a full grown

adult male, just like and and I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else.

So this is telling you, guys, make your own decisions and be

at peace with yourselves. Thank you for that, Thanks for again, thanks

for being honest, Thanks for being transparent. There's someone he who asks how

did you deal or cope mentally and spiritually when you left the church that you

left? And then you left several so maybe which one we just lump it

up? Okay, the fact that you left? Okay, how do you

deal? How do you deal and mentally and spiritually when you left the church

insteaded searching for a new one, with life and career and business all going

on the same time, how do you? Okay? Big question? Yeah,

I wouldn't know how everyone else copes. But I've been blessed with abundant

energy. My wife begs to differ. My wife will tell me, oh,

you always bring home left over energy, but get up to you.

But anyway, so generally speaking, I've just got a fair amount of energy

resource law to be able to like move on. Okay, the key,

I think the key here is this, I never burned bridges, even if

someone has wronged me in the utmost that would be a last resort to burn

bridges, especially with church people. I've got people here from who I was

last day in like twenty eleven, twenty ten. I've got people from Klang,

and I was there since my childhood. So I think that that helped.

So it's important to differentiate that as you leave. It helped me a

lot mentally, physically, emotionally that I left in good faith. I didn't

burn bridges. I didn't like, ah, past, you're a cheat and

child. No, I didn't do that. I didn't. I'm not saying

anybody's a cheat, but but by and large, it was never a sceinerario

where I burned the bridge and left. So I always left in good faith.

I always havep me touching people, and I think that's a natural gift

as well. So I'm quite a friendly dude, so I made friends quite

easily. So in so saying, I think that helped me cope mentally.

That helped me cope emotionally and on every other occasion. It also helped me

cope spiritually. When I'm in it of a for example, spiritual parent,

I could turn to x amount of different people, or when I needed guidance

because maybe I was stuck, I could turn to x plus y different people

from various theological backgrounds, from various churches. So it's good to know,

like you can pluck fruits from different people, you know, and you glean

information. You glean knowledge from from so many different sources. So it's a

good thing. So that's sort that's how I did it. It was never

mentally texting. It was never emotionally draining or I left this church or say

goodbye to all my friends. You know they're all still there. It's kind

of a scenario. So I think that was for me, so a lesson

to be learned. Don't burn the bridge, are okay, great lesson?

Yeah, So let me try to summarize that. Yeah, I think I

guess live. What you're trying to say, yeah, or at least what

I understand that you're trying to say, is that living, moving on,

transitioning, change. Ah, it's part a part of life. Yes,

So I guess it's not about whether you live or don't leave something. You

can leave a job, you can leave a whole friend, friends, live

five your badminton group and join new one whatever. So leaving is not the

issue. It's how you leave, correct uh And you're left without wedding bridges.

So that means there's a way to live that is considered living. Well.

Yeah, I mean okay, so by definition I still left. I

still move on to a different place, you know, different doctrines, different

indoctrination, different set of people, different set of leaders. But am I

still friends with whoever was there? Yeah? So I think I think that

that was very much key. I think adding onto it, maybe it's a

personal thing. I handle change quite well. We used to be in music

together and I left music to go full blown into F and B. Yeah

did still standing finally get to sit now? But yeah, I mean it's

the life I signed up for. So I think for me personally, once

we embrace change, almost nothing can rock you. We all know this.

We all know change will be consistent. Leaders will change, church policies will

change, femine members will come and go. You know, death is a

certainty. So when you when you know that there is always going to be

change, the key lesson to be learned here is how you adapt to it.

It could be church, it could be music, and you know music

has changed. What do I do now? Do I know all of this

is nonsense? Those days music better? No, you don't. So I

think adapting to change, adapting to change, because adapting to change in different

phases of life is key, so that you don't mentally drain yourself, you

know, changing church or changing university. And yeah, so adapting to that

and embracing that has worked really well for me. Great. So living is

sometimes necessary, but you don't have to live bad. You can live good,

live well, don't burn bridges. You can leave a place, but

don't have to leave relationships. So you kept your community around you. So

while you're not in the physical church space, you still had those relationships and

you know, drawing back to the question that was asked earlier, how do

you deal? How do you cope mentally spiritually? Was that you because didn't

burn bridges? If they had those relationships, You had those friendships and you

were able to reach out to them and remain seene Yes. Secondly, is

that transitions, Transitions are changes. Yeah, some this transition can be very

big very impactful. So the quicker you embrace change and learn to adapt,

the better you'll be able to overcourish. So I think with that you've you've

answered some other questions here as well. Someone asked, how do you still

remain firm in your faith? In your belief in God? So I think

you probably say the same things. Yeah, okay, but I just want

to answer it. Yeah, aler to that. So the question was how

do I how do I still Actually it's why and how? So? Why

do you still remain firm in your belief in God? And also how do

you do that? Okay, okay, let's talk about the why. So

why do I still remain firm in your belief? Firm and my beliefs in

God? Everyone knows a relationship with God is a journey, and throughout this

journey with God, So there's a relationship with God, there's a there's a

relationship with church. Sometimes they're the same thing, sometimes they're not. So

I've learned to I've learned to to classify them. Okay, this is this

is me with God. No matter what happens to church, me and God

is like that. Oh, sometimes me and God will be rocky, but

hey, you know me and my church by this is still a social club.

So I still go and do this thing. We still doings and everything.

But but throughout my journey with God, I have seen I have seen

God come through for me too many times for me to say there is no

God. I've seen God come through for me, whether it's family, or

finances, or or relationships, every aspect. God has come through for me

in so many different ways, at so many different times, multiple times.

It's it will be foolish of me to say not all these coincidence. So

my hens, my relationship with God remains. So that is that is me

with God. How you view how you view it as entire left to you.

Maybe you've got you and God, you and church, and you've got

something else that's up to you. But this is this is how I've compartmentalized.

Not a good word, but yes, that's how I've compartmentalized. So

that's so that's me. I'll give you an example for example. Uh,

this is a recent example. You guys are here and read about that head

and I remember telling you this January the eighth, our daily beloved Landlord Garden

Small, what's up? Guidence Garden Small comes tells me via email that they

will shut off the Eitan entrance rich to us is our main entrance. That's

our link bridge to a whole bunch of regulars that come from kl Eco City.

You know your my our shopping customers, shopping set quarters is there,

Robert Waters is there. You know, a whole bunch of them. They

were shutting it off on January the eighth. No, they told me on

January the eighth. They were shutting it off on January the eleventh. They

only gave me two days to do things. So actually I was fuming.

I was the high Nannis clans out on me, went bonkers my stuff,

you want to talk to me? And bosses and Ben would we go away?

If we go away? I was swimming because they were so disrespectful.

So I was like, at witch end, these guys were shutting off effectively

killing my business. So I did. I made a simple prayer, like

God, this is beyond me now I cannot. I cannot talk to these

people because these are all like CEO levels. I eventually had a meeting with

the CEO and she wouldn't budge so but that's another story. So to cut

a long story shot, this door shut January eighth. They told me January

eleven they shut it. I asked them how long they're going to shut it

for. They were going to shut it till March twenty twenty five. And

all this time, I've got payroll to pay, I've got course of cose,

I've got a business to run. What do I do so that that's

a very real concern. So I prayed. It was outside here at this

fountain guarden. I just sat down there. You will see as you go

out, there's this fountain guidend. There's this little public that I sat down.

I looked across there. Okay, God, I cannot do Leo,

you have to show up. This is this is my very basic prayers,

and it's multiple times. It is not a transaction. I'm not asking God

for favor and he gives. This is me asking God for help. Kind

of a thing to cut a long story shot. Despite that having happened,

we sure we went ahead and we did marketing. We had to January eleventh

day closed. January we hit our higher sales ever, Wow, no kidding,

And I thought January was oh crazy. I thought, okay, February

we can close two days for Chinese year. Okay, I've got some money.

Hey, y February close to days for Chinese year. February only as

twenty nine days. February twenty nine days minus two days for change year,

so we only operate for twenty seven days. February sales was one and a

half times January sales. This despite the door being shut. Where they come

from? How they come from? This? This is this is how you

toss the toss on it from the side of the boat, so much fish

that you start pulling. That's pretty much where it is. I is there

an explanation? No, Where do they come from? Don't know? But

did they come yes? So this is this is this is God coming through.

There's no explanation. I didn't go downstairs to mid value where I teachirt

Hey, I'm absts and levels is follow me up? None of that.

So I think I think this is this is scenarios where God came true for

me. This is the most recent example. There are plenty er buy my

book on Amazon, but but but generally, by and large, that that

strengthens my faith. That strengthens my belief that there is a God who loves

me, that there is a god who's looking on for me. Uh.

I'm not saying that and therefore I don't need a church. I'm just saying

that purely that there is a God who loves me and that there's a God

takes care of me. It's sahaja great. Yes, this story is very

encouraging. I believe God is with you. He heard your prayer, he

answer them in a very creative way, and so we give glory to Him

before I move on to the next question. Or not depends. I don't

know this. This may be the very first episode of people watching out there

when when it goes online. Of course, people sitting here alive. I

want to say that what I'm hearing a story. Yeah, I'm interviewing you.

I'm listening to you, and this is your story that you're telling you

that story. I believe in the church. I believe that the church is

necessary. It's got agent or transformation in our world. It's Jesus a strategy

all of those things. I believe that. I believe that there is a

universal body of Christ which we're all part of. You're definitely part of that.

That's why we can leave a place and still be part of the Body

of Christ. But I also believe that there's a local body of Christ,

and that's the local expression. That's your little church, small church in a

building, part of the community. All of that I believe in both.

I believe when Jesus mentions church, he actually mentions in both expressions. So

I believe in that. So I believe that if you're a believer, you

should be part of a body of Christ where you can actually express your faith.

Like when Jesus say, is forgef on another you actually need to have

another person that will actually annoy you, step on your toes. You know,

I'm kind to you for you to forgive in order to obey those in

every where. I believe that having said that, I'm with you on the

whole. It doesn't Church doesn't have to be like just one way, like

it has to be run this way, it has to be on a Sunday

morning, not afternoon, or or like you know, there are a lot

of things that we have made church into into that may not necessarily be what

Jesus mean when he said church. You know what I mean? Uh,

yeah, A lot of things are expressions, but man has made some expressions

into the thing. Like when when Jesus was asked by the woman as well,

Uh, hey Jesus an empiaphastar Jesus, way, where's the right way

to worship? Your people say Jerusalem, My people say up the mountain,

which want to brow? Okay, she didn't just brought up. And so

she's basically trying trying to do what we've we've been doing, Like you know

which which kind of person worship song is got lee, you know which style

from Australia is better or UK or us? Uh? Do we worship in

the building or not? I mean, that's basically the essence what she's trying

to ask. And then Jesus debunked the whole thing and said, it's not

about any of that's not mountain or in the valley. It's not jazz or

R and B or rock. It's not huge song or mountain song or river

song or valley song. It's none of those things. It's worship God in

spirit and in truth. So I get what you're saying. I do get.

As someone who believes in that you gotta be in church, you gotta

come and serve in all those things. I still I still believe those things,

but I also believe that it doesn't have to be expressed only one way

or somebody's way, that your faith can still be as real. But I

think, I think so there's value with that. So basically no too,

No two of us are the same, and likewise no two churches are the

same. So using that as as as the underlying factor, I think it's

there are those who who favor structure, and there are those who favor routine,

and there are those who favor being managed, so and that's something for

them. And then there are those who I would hesitate to use the word

maybe a bit, a bit more of a free bird, a bit more

uncaged, so to speak, And then that and then there are there are

things for them as well. So I think let's not make a mistake in

saying, like, okay, only those who go to a church are spiritually

fed. Those who do not go to church or those who do alternative churches

also need to be spiritually fed. So I think there are there are different

permutations for different for different people, uh to feed different needs, to feed

different degrees of need. So I think that that works well. So there's

there's answer you two questions here from from the people listening that relate to what

we just talked about. One is therefore and therefore my addition to the question,

But the question is why why bother with church at all? Don't they

all eventually become the same es they grow bigger, et cetera. I guess

trying to imply that, yeah, you may start alternative, but eventually,

when you grow bigger and you, when you whatever, do you know what

I mean, you become just like everybody else anyway. You know, the

structure comes in, the rules comes in, all this thing comes in.

So why water anyway? Correct? Okay, So my take on this is

this, you don't predict the future until it actually takes place. So if

you're telling people, oh, you know, you're starting small, now you're

cool, you're fun, and then eventually you will not become fun, but

you never quite know until it actually happens. So let's not let's not say,

Okay, this bunch will eventually become like this, because it may not.

Yeah, or or your this church is all you know, they're so

stuck in their ways they will never they will never change. But then I've

been to churches and they actually do, so I think it's it's harsh,

it's a bit shallow, it's uh disrespectfuler. You know, if if we

if we say eventually all of them will eventually take on this role, or

all of them will eventually be mega churches with genomal sets of rules and satellite

churches in three different planets, you know that kind of thing. So I

think I think staying the course of the journey wherever you are with any church,

I stayed, so it's not like, oh, I'm here for only

three months, so you know, I watched them grow. I saw you

know, I was there ten o years, was there like two decades?

Maybe more so? I So all things said and that I think it's it's

it's allowing yourself to be very much a part of the journey and not forcing

your own ideas or templates onto that journey, because then, you know,

you might startle the growth of the church. So don't don't pre empty it

before it actually happens. That. Yeah, that's good. I mean,

we don't presume to know what God is doing or will be doing. Well,

that's all for now. We hope you've been inspired and impacted by the

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