#GOTDialog 002: Church Trauma is Real: A Real Life Story of Identity Abuse | Jon Koo

So now you're gonna cook something. You're going to cook something up, all

right, but cook something real. Hey there, I'm Andeo, the pastor

of Genesis Church. This is a podcast and you just tune into the Generations

on Tuesday edition, Generations on Tuesday or got is an alternative church experience is

church but a little different. No platform, no propriate, no one creature,

but rather the focus is on Christ, community and conversations. We have

a special heart for those who are in the creative arts, entertainment, media,

music, FMB and similar communities, and we want to provide a safe

space to explore and discover faith in Jesus, but in a not so conventional

way. We hope you'll be inspired impacted by today's dialogue where we keep it

real, raw and relevant on topics that matter. So let's get right into

it. Be blessed all right. I don't know about you, but I'm

a bit nerverse because this is not an easy topic. It's we're going to

talk about church trauma, all right, And I'm not sure, let's say,

twenty years ago, three years ago, whether we will actually put the

word church and trauma together. But in this day and age, we seem

to hear these phrases a lot, right, this phrase a lot of church

trauma. Uh. And tonight's topic, of course, it's church trauma is

real, and because it's so real, we want to talk about it,

uh, And we're going to talk about it from the angle of someone who

has been through it. And that's why it's called a real life story of

identity abuse, which, of course you were later on kind of like defind

that a little bit. So since you're telling us that story, let's get

to know you. Who is John Cool? So maybe I'll start and then

you feel in the blanks, right, Okay, As far as I know,

the official version, John Coo is a former pastor who has years and

years of ministry experience. You've been in the church world for many, many

years, and in those many years of experience in church ministry, you've had

many, many highs. You've accomplished a lot, achieved a lot, done

a lot, You've experienced many great and wonderful things. But the fact that

you're here today also tells us that you've experienced some lows, maybe many lows,

I don't know, you can tell us later. And because of that,

you've left your profession as a pastor. You even left the church you

were working for h and you had to go through a journey of healing,

you know, waiting for some therapy and stuff like that. And after a

significant journey of healing, you are now ready to tell your story in a

setting like this. I hope I'm ready. You hope you're ready. Yeah,

you're already now than say, six months ago, a year ago,

Okay, definitely morelready today, definitely than ever. But I think in a

while we'll talk about our hopes. Why are you here? Why are we

talking about this? Right? But you're back now in the church, a

local church with your family, serving wherever you can. That's our little official

version of who is young coul One of you, Lina Blanks. Okay,

so your question was who is youngco Oh? Who? Yeah? Who are

you? Tell us a bit about you? Besides you know your crazy hair?

Yeah, this is normal, this is you know. Okay, Okay,

you're crazy, He's normal. Okay. So now I can say that

I am a father, I'm a husband, and I get to do whatever

I want with my life. I get to minister to my family. So

that's an overall understanding of who I am for myself who I who I am

in in uh, in society, in the community, in the church.

I'm just someone who's just serving serving God wherever I can no longer serving in

a pastoral capacity, official capacity, and for this season, for however long

it takes of me forever. That's great because it's a journey of discovery of

the calling. Right. So, so I think that's there's a sum up

who I am. Now. Some of you may know who I was before.

Uh. Physically I'm half the man I used to be. Oh wow,

this this is half the size. Uh. And I was a very

different person back then. So so for those who had that context, uh,

what you see is what you get still, but definitely a different version

of who you you once knew. Great. So your father, husband,

uh, and your christ believer now just serving in whatever ways you can In

summary. Great, So let's get into the conversation dialogue tonight. So I

guess the question would be what difference do we hope to make from having this

conversation? Right? In other words, why are we talking about this and

why are we talking about this out in the open with an audience here today?

And then this later on going online for the world to watch. Why

are we doing this? What are our hopes? I think we discussed this,

so I will just quickly summarize and then you can add on. I

think one of our hopes is that today from this conversation, we hope to

inspire good and healthy leadership, because leadership is where things rising for right.

We need leadership. We need leadership in family, companies, organizations, churches,

football teams, et cetera, et cetera. But there is good leadership,

healthy leadership, and then there's bad leadership and damaging ones. So we

want to through this conversation hope to inspire good and healthy relationship, both in

church and in life. Hope number one. Hope number two, we hope

to inspire healing, especially for those who have been hurt. And I think

it's no secret now that you're here because you have been hurt, there is

strung and you've been through healing and still going through healing. We want to

let the people out there know that healing is possible, there is hope even

if you have been hurt. Hope number two. Hope number three is we

hope to somehow as we talk about this in process this we're still able to

redeem and restore trust in leadership in the church, in the faith, because

perhaps right now globally, even the trust and the and the belief in institutions,

leadership, church stuff like that is maybe on a loan because of so

many disappointments. Those of the tree hopes. That's that describe our hopes for

today. Yeah, pretty much so. And I think the intention here is

not to go on a rent. The intention is not to purposely call out,

but to to show like an open book and open the box and see

what's inside. And of course everybody's journey is very different, right so I

think with context to my journey, it's very scary for an introvert like me,

like this is terrifying. If for some of your introverts trust me,

it's killing me on the inside right now. But I'll do my best to

be authentic, and through that authenticity, I hope you can see where it

can lead someone. Maybe you're here experiencing something similar, going through the same

thing now, or you've been been there, but you're still in that space,

and just want to let you know that that there are ways out of

it, out of that space. I think that's also the hope that I

would like to share today. Great. I like that we're not here to

rent or just complain and just simply opening up a can of worms for no

reason. But we are opening up a can. We're opening up a box.

I hope you like worms. And there are gummy worms, the yuki

worms, all kinds of worms, all mixed up. We're gonna open it

up. We're gonna process it now. We don't have like all night or

like who we don't do this. I thought we're gonna end about one am.

You know, the battery won't last, so we're not gonna be able

to check through every single worm that is in the box. But we're gonna

try to do as best as we That's why we have discussions two weeks from

now and then four weeks from now. But let's see how far we can

take this. But again, the hope is to inspire, go leadership,

inspire healing, inspire restoration and redemption. Right, Okay, let's start with

your story. Let's take us back to when you first put your faith in

Jesus. Describe your salvation story and from there, how do you if eventually

get into church ministry. Okay, so summary, my mom got safe first.

I was about seven years old. I've only been to the one church.

Uh, so she brought me to church. My dad was against it.

He wasn't a believer, he was a freethinker. Brought myself and my

sister at church by eight and a half to nine, I think roughly when

the Sunday school. No, sorry, let's retrack back. My auntie,

who was a pastor in a church and sunway shared with me the gospel and

at seven years old accepted Christ because she told me about Jesus. I'm like,

yeah, sure, cool man. And then that was it. And

my mom brought me to church. First of all, my mom brought me

a church when I was nine years old, went to a church and because

she got safe there. Though my father was against it, he still allowed

us to go but occasionally. And I settled there because that's where I found

friends. You know, there were older brothers who could look I could look

up to and immediately actually jump into serving in kids ministry, like you know

all these productions untally, Hey, this boy can can can act, one

can sing one big and Della and VBS was was a big thing, you

know. So that's where that's why I got really rooted in the faith as

a very young boy. VBS would be vacation school. So like you're in

school holidays, three day, three day, just having fun in the church

on church grounds. Okay, yeah, oh so you found faith in Jesus

pretty young as a young young child. How did that got you into like,

I want to be a pastor full time ministry? That the pretty like

you pretty sold out. So it's very interesting now that you're asking me the

question, right, I remember bringing my Bible to school, uh and sharing

as a young Christian, like eight years old, I was bringing my Bible

to school and sharing ring with my friends about the Bible. Like but it's

not like eleborate, like I know in the Book of Something, I flipped

in the middle because everybody know you flipped the over in the middle of the

Book of Something, Like why are you so clever? I know when the

Book of Mathews because it's the first you know, very good, very good,

I tell him, you know, Jesus and son God. So it's

very simple stuff like that. But ever since then, my my friends will

call me pastor John. Since then, I'm like Nola, and I didn't

I didn't really think too much about it because God serving in church. When

I was about twelve years old. I think I got baptized in the Holy

Spirit at twelve years old, amazing experience or was it eleven years eleven?

Weears I got baptized in water twelve years old, baptized and Holy Spirit.

And then, uh, you've ministry started in the church when I was thirteen

years old, so they get all young people and and we were because we

were we were attending church, but then going leaving during the sermon, going

out to the to the roadside chicken rice shop, and then coming back after

somemon just in time when the parents are about to pick us up from Sunday

school. Nice. But it was at camp and when I was fifteen years

sixteen years old, so you've metrely started and all. It was fun because

we started having more pretty goals in the church. Wo And of course I

gula, yeah, yeah, yeah, grow not because they're pretty cher pretty

goals. But it was exciting, it was dynamic. And then at sixteen

years old, I had an encounter. We got at a church camp.

At sixteen years old, I just had just recently broke broken up with a

girl, oh, who was in church or so okay, pretty girl,

okay, really messed it all up. So we needed some sort of counseling

and healing and therapy. So as my first encounter, we got and the

encounter was very real, very deep. Until today, I can still and

bree very clearly, and I was just fast forwarding everything. Then by seven

and of from five, there was a youth conference, I think one of

the first few youth conferences the church organized, and uh that's where uh the

speaker was the last session, the speaker asked, you know, get the

auto call about full time calling. At that time, I did not have

any clue what the full time call really was, and it was on my

mind, but uh, he said that, you know, maybe God is

calling you to be a lawyer, engineer, doctor, And in my mind

I wanted to be a computer computer engineer. What does me you mean I

can be called as an engineer for God? I'm like cool. So I

ran to the altar ah and then people just pray that you know how the

alla passes spraying. But there was one particular pastor who prayed for me and

say that God has given you a compassionate heart. And then that's the moment

he said that I felt like a hand squeezing my heart, and the waterworks

just began and I broke down. I cry and cry and cry and realize

and m I supposed to be an engineer that cries for people. But I

heard the Lord spoke to me recularly. I'm calling you to the broken,

to the desolate. I still remember that very clearly. Wow, at the

end of seventeen, you know, from five and by eighteen years old,

I was struggling to decide whether I want to go to Bible school or go

to UNI a college just to get a degree first. So that's how it

all led to that point of me wanting to be a pastor. Wow.

Okay, so you had a really sort of God moment, you responded to

the call and got spoke to you, and you started to develop a heart

of full time ministry. Then eventually became going to full time ministry. Yeah.

So at eighteen years old, I was advised not to go into Bible

school. Yeah, because still too young. Go and get your degree,

Go and learn, Go and get a job first. You know, it's

more important. It's important that I understand how the world works before getting too

full time. So when I decided to study, and then I didn't do

too well in Uni. I went to work. Maybe you get a job

even without a degree, and I got a taste of what the world was

like, and I ran away from the call. I decided to like,

Okay, God, let's put this call in on hold. I want to

make a lot of money, so I thought, lah, and I want

to I want to be super independent. I just want to do everything that

a working person did LA because I was young, but there was a point

in my family life where where my youngest brother was caught home to the Lord.

And at that point I won't go into the details of that, but

at that point, before he passed away, God spoke to me and said

that your brother has finished his race. This was weeks before he passed away,

and he said, I'm going to take you a brother home, but

it's time for you to start your race. I'm like, what start?

What? And why are you telling me this? Now it's time for you

to answer the call that I called you to do. And so I went

through the whole process of like breaking again. And true enough, my brother

did pass away, so I knew that God had spoken very clearly, and

that's when at the age of twenty two, I think or twenty three,

I went into Bible School. Yeah, amazing. I'm sorry about your brother.

So you went to Bible school twenty three, I can't remember. It's

a blurnout therefore, yeah, yeah, yeah, you went through it,

you graduated, you went to full time industry. Can you tell us a

bit about, like what was your sincere hopes and dreams when you went into

full time industry and became a pastor? Like what was your dream? What

was your hopes? I think everybody who goes in the Bible school right first,

hope to be very well equipped, Like I want to know once I

did the word God, you know, I want to be like, wow,

the best theologian. I want to get it all right, and I

want to make sure right that I don't preach anything heretical. You know.

Then there's the romanticizing of, like, you know, a pastor's life.

You know, I'm going to give up everything. You're gonna be poor,

I'm gonna be be uh maybe even single for the rest of my life.

I seriously thought that I thought, after my breakup at sixteen years old,

right, that no one will love me anymore because there was a series of

girls who just kept rejecting me. I thought like, wow, one after

the other. Of course they were older girls, and then they were like,

you're too young for me, and like it's okay, it's okay,

forgiven and forgotten. But I saw I seriously thought that my life was going

to be very painful and lonely where I'm not going to make a lot and

my parents will worried. My parents were like, we need to save up

for this child of myne because we know how much he eats, we know

how much he spends. He's not going to make it as a pastor.

And and I had that in my mind so romanticized that that I'm going to

go into the mission field. I'm going to work with with aboriginal aron Estly,

I'm going to die in the mission field, that kind of romance,

you know, of the call. I would die preaching my last won.

I would die being marked. This thing is that? Right? The first

year in Bible School and a second you come to realization that it's not going

to be that bad, lad So but the third year, right, I

realized that the progression after going to Bible school because the church, the church

endorsed the call and the and the yea to go to Bible School. The

progression was to just work for the church. I'm like, oh, it's

not too bad. I'm not going to go out. I'm just going to

be comfortable behind a desk. That's why I thought. So I had that

all in mind, that I'm gonna live and die a pastor for the rest

of my life, right, and my churn for a lot after so they

will all be pastors, and my wife would just have to support all of

us, you know, and God would send ravens, you know, to

send shoes, clothes, car you know. So it was something that I

actually held on as my truth. Yeah, did you did you dream of

working in the church as like, you know what, this is going to

be the best place to work for because everyone is so forgiving, everyone's going

to be like Jesus and they're all gracious, No one's going to be angry,

no one makes mistakes here. I don't know something like that. That

was it like a dream place to work at it? Did you feel that

way? Actually? It was because because the youth ministry was thriving, so

in my mind I wanted to serve very specifically in youth and worship. That

was what I felt my calling was because I love playing me, I love

I love leading worship right and and being among young people means I didn't have

to wear a suit and tie like back then working in the church that we

had to wear thie, you know, like a like a corporate job.

And I hated it. So I thought working youth ministry because too dressed young

and and and that that was actually the career I was aiming for. And

it was fun because I was working with peers, uh, and it was

dynamic, so it wasn't there wasn't any indication of of what a real church

office environment is like. We were kind of insulated a lot, okay,

so you were very involved in the youth ministry. It was a thriving,

growing, vibrant youth ministry. So it was fun. It was it looks

good, looks great. Uh and uh even even your office environment for you

specifically, it was like, what this is great? Right? So we

here? What how did we get from that to like there's the dream place

to work at it it sounds like a theme park to why are we talking

about just trauma here today? Like how do you where did you start to

go, I guess down here for you. Okay, So now we're getting

into into where it all started, right, Okay, guys, So I'm

going to open this box. I've kept uside for a long time. I

opened it yesterday. It freaked me out. I'm going to be very honest,

real and authentic here if if it if some things I say might be

triggering, or it might affect you in some way. There's no intention there,

but half in mind that that this was my response back in the past.

This was what has already happened. Nothing could have been done. And

if it does reflect on someone, it doesn't reflect on you. Okay,

just remember that this is very isolated, is within this context. Yeah,

so I was this was It took a turn when I was already the college

pastor, so college college campus ministry. Uh, we had divided it into

like high school, one pathetic care, college, one pathtics care, you

know, young adults. So by then I had already been installed as a

pastor, really paid my duser for a while, and UH begin to see,

uh, things have things that I have never seen before in the office

in the church working culture. So I begin to realize that because I worked

before, So thank god I worked before. I begin to see different behaviors,

UH patterns cultures that was very similar to UH toxic work work culture.

And and so it took a turn when the overseeing pastor over a few of

us. So this pastor over oversaw the youth ministry, a bit of the

children, a bit of the young adults, taking care of quite a few

areas, but very influential. I know, I know that that some we

would know who I'm talking about. I don't have to mention names. I

don't have to mention anything because it was already talked about before. So this

is more or less the first account of someone who was under that. That

situation took a turn when we found out certain certain accusations that happened regarding the

overseeing pastor. Before all this has happened, we already saw a division in

the church office amongst the leadership division and sense where everybody was working silo.

There was no cohesive direction. And so when when people start working silo,

right, people tend to get competitive. Also not competitive in a healthy way,

but it's just like you can you know that someone's trying to do better

than the other. And I had not realized it back then, but there

was a lot of hidden agendas backbiting. Now, if you're new to church

or you've heard this before, uh, this is what it is. Some

cultures, some church office cultures are like that. So sad to say,

it is what it is. Right, And how it took a turn was

when this overseeing pastor kept talking bad about other pastors and the lead pastor,

the senior pastor. I didn't realize it back then, so we we were

also amongst ourselves, among of the pastors that was under this pastor kept doing

that too. We kept talking bad. We kept seeing other pastors who and

other leaders who we thought were the bad person. Right, we said that

we saw them in a very bad light and we will try to avoid them.

That's how the division started. And that's when we realized in hindsight,

it had already started then so fast. For a few years later, the

overseeing pastor, it got. It got quite bad, lad because I was

in pastoral meetings, right, and pastoria meetings will be quite heated and intense,

and we're like, what's going on? But we could not say anything

because anytime we kind of asked, we will get shot down and say that

you don't understand, you have no idea what you're talking about. You stay,

stay your lane or keep to your corner. Okay, know your place.

You're too young, so okay, fine then because the accusations now fast

forward. The accusations came for this pastor, and of course they were real,

they were true. The accusations involved my childhood friends who I had lost

along the way because they had left church, and these were very close friends

of mine. So I was angry because at first I did not believe the

accusations, or rather the accusations didn't seem as serious as I thought. And

my dad was on the board, so even my dad had to He was

trying his best to protect me right from from actually seeing the whole picture.

He said, you need to understand that in due time you will know what

has actually happened, and you have to accept it now. But I could

have accepted. I was ready on the word of like because there was so

much loyalty. There was so much allegiance at that time, and I hated

what was going on because, for one, I don't like division. If

it happens right, I don't want to take sides. But I was seeing

myself taking a side which I did not fully understand. So when when crap

hit the ceiling and he hit the fan, everything crumbled before my eyes.

I could see even amongst my colleagues, people who I was close to,

we grouped together because it was safer in numbers, right, it was.

It was comfort in numbers. But we begin to see our relationships, our

relationships strained. And of course, when this pasta had already resigned and left,

and the whole the whole situation was kind of kind of like case closed.

We thought, Okay, the worst is over. Am I getting ahead

of it of the question? So we thought the worst was over? And

and like we had to figure out a way out of this because none of

us followed this pasta, this parst I had already left, decided to start

their own ministry, and we decided not to. I'm gonna share this little

part here that a lot of people didn't don't know, not even my peers.

So this pastor happened to be in Australia at the same time I was.

The the year that pastor left, I was still angry, right,

and I was still like, I'm gonna fight the authorities. I'm gonna fight

the system. I'm gonna break it. I'm gonna make sure right, I

make every wrong right dreamer. So in Australia, we coincided our timings and

we met, and I literally, right, I mean not canno, literally,

I metaphorically took the knee and planted allegiance for this pasta. It was

crazy. I look batter, I'm like, wow, you stupid or what.

But at that point I was so wrought with emotions that had no idea

what was doing. All I needed to know was I needed someone to keep

mentoring me and keep that covering over me. So I planted allegiance in Australia.

Then when I came back, God did something and it shifted the narrative

and my eyes just opened. I found out the truth about everything that happened,

and they were like, holy crap, do I have to now cut

myself and like do a blood sacrifice to break the allegiance and vow what they

need to do. And it freaked me out. But that's when when my

eyes were opened, I began to realize every single instance that has happened in

my life interacting with this pasta. I began to what it was I begin

to see the abuse of manipulation personally for me. Yeah, okay, let's

process that you became a pastor when the full time ministry. You had very

pure intentions doing so. You really wanted to change the world through your ministry

to music, and of course you had to come under leadership. You have

to come under the leadership. And of course, loyalty is not wrong,

submission is not wrong, communment is not wrong. All of those things are

not wrong. Right. But like any good thing, like sugar is good,

but too much sugar is no good, vitamins good, too much vitamins

not good. Right, what I hear from you is that being under this

person's leadership, there was from what you're sharing, right, that the leader

tend to start talking bad about other people. So you caught that and that

became normal to you, like, oh, this is what pastors do.

We talk bad about other passes that don't flow with us, so we talk

better about them, and that's normal. Uh, And only you you only

realize later that wait a minute, that's that doesn't seem right, right,

and other things, other things, And you shared a story about you pledging

alligions and all that that form of loyalty to the extreme right. Not everyone

sees it as wrong. If I may be honest, I was there too.

I was there. I've got my own story of extreme loyalty. And

I didn't realize until ten years later that there was a point in time in

my life where I chose my leader over my own wife. Yep, I

didn't see them. Now I say, everyone can go like, what,

what, what did you do? You choose somebody else, all your wife?

That's clearly unhealthy. No, but I didn't see it then, and

I'm pretty sure you didn't see it then. Yeah, how did you come

to realize? And what did you notice that when you go, wait a

minute, something's off here. Sorry, we again understand what what a narcissist

manipulator really functions like. And this is like just recently in the recent years

of just understanding behavior. I just I had to research it so I grew

up. Now that's the reason why I'm also half the size now, because

it's all correlated. I finally realize I was. I was the fat,

little chubby kit everybody called cute. Everybody loved to see me eat and kept

feeding me food. I didn't like it, actually, but I thought that

was how people proof of me and accepted me. Because I didn't want to

be the fat kid. Everybody kept teasing the fat kid, even in school,

and it was bad. It was the fat shaming was bad, but

the fat shaming in church was acceptable and felt good because it was masked with

approval. Where am I getting is since a young age when I first joined

the church and all that, and in youth ministry, right I realized why

the girls didn't like me because not attractive at all, and just kept stuffing

my face. But but that's how people kept enabling. And so the culture

of enabling this kind of behavior was I think it's very normal across all So

don't get me wrong that it's only in church and among this amongst these people.

But but it began to progress into different forms right where because I was

yearning for approval, especially from this pastor, to a point where, right

I didn't yearn for approval from my parents anymore. This pastor became my parent,

and I had given their full authority to this pastor and stripped my parents,

or in some way strip my parents of their authority. So what would

they say? Sometimes? Right? Well, growing up didn't mean any thing

they could not control me, and I'm in control, right. I wasn't

being rebellious. You know. I was going to church six days a week.

I would take a bus from all the way to walk up to church

around the area, right. And they loved it because they loved this kid

who were seeking for They call it like woll I was so eager to serve

God, but I was actually seeking for approval, and so everything I did

was for their pastor's approval. Everything on stage, off stage, in the

office, our, the office, everything in ministry. And there was so

much power given to a point where I asked if I could start abandon this

pars to say no, so I cancel the idea. I asked if I

could go on holiday this time? I was this time, I was already

in Bible school. As school, I go on holiday. My family,

Oh no, because there's ministry you shouldn't go, and there's ministry you can't

go on weekends. I'm like, but weekends are when we can go on

holiday. That's when my parents are free, right, But no, you

can only go on weekdays. So I'm like, okay, surely I know.

I submit, I submit, I kept submitting. There was one more

instance, I had dye my hair green, so this is not new,

this is like old news. I already died my hair green. News was

just before Bible school. And this pastor in a in a youth kemet in

Singapore, I followed for ministry, asked me to publicly announce or not ask

me, but implyed and and kind of like pressured me to publicly announced I'm

going to Bible School and that I will redye my hair black because it's only

proper. Don't go into bubble school with green hair. Wherever rebell is,

and if everything that I had to do with my identity, what I wanted

to do, even the person I wanted to date and all, there was

one guy I really like, really pursued for many years just fars. I

say, no, don't touch very special, You're not you're not, You're

not for this girl. I'm like, she's my best friend today last still

still good friend lives, so I was good. But back then I'm like,

okayno, but other other guys could pursue. I'm like, do it.

This guy is kind of play the guitar so so different different parts of

it. And if my sound Patty in my sound like like, you know,

what's the big deal? But I I didn't realize. But I felt

suffocated all throughout. I felt like I couldn't express myself. So I kept

eating and eating and eating. There was only only expression I knew, and

I ballooned up and and it affected my confidence and on every level to a

point where right that I thought anything I thought wrong, any thought I had

wrong, or any any insecurity I had, I thought I had already sinned

against this pastor can you see where the thought and heart worse. I no

longer even saw me as positioned as as God's child. I saw myself as

this person's spiritual child. So I'll call know, I said, I'm so

sorry I had this thought and all Have I lost the anointing? Have I

lost your spiritual covering? So my whole identity was shaped around this past's approval

and and also the proofal of everyone else, because everybody, whatever this pastes

said, everybody had to resonate, and so I had to follow the resonance,

and it was actually dissonance for me. It really stripped away a lot

of who I thought I was going to be. Hm, yeah, okay,

let me get their breath lighten up things and if you do. Yeah,

So, if you don't mind me asking this way, so we we

we are hoping through the conversation to inspire good leadership. Right, what you

just described to me sounds like you are implying that this leader somehow practiced not

so healthy leadership over you. Okay, whatever, this pastor kind of like

practice as the form of leadership maybe has influenced you to behave that we are

like overly fearful, overly loyal. Yeah, okay, So because right,

why why there's so much fear and of all that is because this past the

cap declaring over and over again, I am prophetic, I am called as

a prophet of the Lord. Okay, so if you go against the prophet,

and there were many instances this fast the said, so many people have

spoken against me, and look where they are now. They have cancer,

they have fallen sick. Yes, so you you you kind of like I

don't want to be in the wrong side of things, right yeah. So

of course fear had already said it so deep. Yeah. Yeah, And

and and this passed this word to me and many of many of us who

are serving, was absolute true, yeah, And who deals in absolute or

your Star Wars fans only sif deals just we kind of did it, I'll

just keep it in. Okay. No, I'm glad you say it because

that's what I was trying to get at, because otherwise it will sound like

I'm this way because of somebody else's fault. You know what I'm saying,

Like, you know, if we don't qualify that, it sounds like,

yeah, I'm like that because of somebody else's fault. Because there's also some

amount of responsiblit you have to take. Right, just because someone is trying

to manipulate us doesn't mean we allow them to manipulate us. So there is

that, we accept that, but we also I guess what we're trying to

say here is there is leadership is influenced, especially when you started so young

under someone's leadership. And what we're what you were saying just now is if

I'm if I'm right, it's it's years and years and years of speaking saying

things to your impressionable years, right, that created all these perceptions like I

am the prophet of God, so what I say is God's words. So

if I say don't marry the girl, you don't marry the girl, right,

And this is over and over and again and there every things said about

like you know, it's a famous one. I don't touch lots annointer,

So I'm annointer. You don't touch me, you don't talk bad about me,

you don't so all those things. I think it's what created these perceptions.

Right. So we're not saying we're not blaming, We're not saying,

ah, I'm like that because so and so it's like that. But what

we're recognizing here is leaders do have influence. The things you say do matter.

It does shape people's minds. So we really have to be careful.

Even the Bible says we're going to be accountable for every idol word. What

more the words than not either? What are the words that we say intentionally?

Right? Okay? Cool? Because one of our hopes here tonight is

to inspire the leadership, which means leaders have to be extra careful about what,

especially the Christian war are the Christian world God no leaders, I'm a

pastor. It's very easy to write. You see, I just have to

pull the God said so card. It's done. It's done, right,

Like, where do you go from there? If I go against your God

says the word I'm going against I'm going against God. How can I do

that? So those things, Yeah, I think leaders say sometimes too freely.

Yep. And so it's clearly affected you. You you've you've come under

such leadership for so long. It created in you this this sense of loyalty.

Yes, loyal it is good, but over extended health dealer. Okay,

okay, how do you affect you? And uh when when was the

worst time? And then because I know you eventually had to leave like you,

we say, it's not your former pastor, so you're once a pastor

and you're normal. Yeah, okay, So yeah, so there is part

three okay, or rather part two way two B. So past that leparty,

we were trying to rebuild. We're trying to hold things together. Don't

rock the ship too much, rock the boat too much. But we were

fragmenting right amongst all of us. Now, what happened happened in this context

was there was so much of this past us character and impression and like influence

over all of us. There were about seven of us the last okay,

so this was just before the pandemic, the last two years before pandemics.

When so by twenty seventeen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, I had already

hit burnout point, and this burnout was bad. This was the darkest time

of my life. Actually, had I gone through my decision, I wouldn't

be here today. My child wouldn't be here today. So that woke me

up a lot. I was in I was overseas and something happened. It

took a turn really bad because I wasn't sleeping well. I was only sleeping

two three hours every night. I was overweight. I was diagnosed with type

two diabetes. I had been given like a death sentence for a doctor,

and I don know what to do. I was lost, and amongst all

of us, no one was helping me because I was reaching out for help,

and I didn't know who was returned to because I did not trust anybody

anymore. There was so much fragmentation that when I came back, the only

person I cried out and reached out to was a church member, a church

board member, because he had walked through with a lot of us a coaching

program. But that coaching program was the turning point for me. It was

life changing because it only helped me understand the journey before I could see the

cracks, I could see the potholes, I could see the damage done.

But I wasn't out of the woods yet. So all this had happened,

I came back. I reached out to him and he embraced me with so

much of God's love because I could not recognize God's love anymore. And at

that point, all he said was tell your wife. I didn't tell my

wife, and at that time she would come back with two caskets. I

didn't tell her, and he said, you need to tell your wife.

This is your first priority. She will understand. She's strong enough. So

I told her. I broke. She said this okay, we will get

through this. And so he walked through with me for six months and then

he said, are you okay now? I said not yet, not yet,

because mentally I have no idea who I am. I had put myself.

I had cause a lot of pain to myself trying to feel alive.

There's a reason for the tattoos, and I'll say I'll explain why. My

first tattoo. Right when I first got it, I was expecting pain.

Lie right, they're doing. But as the moment the tattoo artists started,

I heard the pastest voice in my head, screaming in my ear, You're

going to go to hell. You are walking away from your calls, You're

singing against God. And it was so as cruciating that I couldn't hear the

tattoo gun. I could only hear that voice. I couldn't feel the pain.

I could only feel the pain mentally. It was weird. It's never

happened again. It was only at that point I think something broke in me,

something really broke. And so this this person walked through with me,

and just to make sure I got out of the woods. Where As I

got out of the woods, he could see because he's a trained professional,

right, so he could see, Okay, you don't have signs of this

anymore. I took control of my health. I decided to take control my

life and say, I'm going to be responsible for certain things and for things

I couldn't control. I cannot deal with it right now. So I took

control my health. I took control of my behavior as a pastor. I

was still a pastor, you know. And so getting back to this point

here, we were all fragmented. I was going through all this. No

one was really able to help me. Because they were all giving very like

textbook advice. I'm like, didn't I don't need that. I just need

you to walk with me, but no one could. But there was also

a lot of back by things that I realized enough is enough, la.

So this was twenty seventeen. I took control my health. I lost the

weight, I felt better, went through the therapy, I felt better.

I'm like, I'm myself again. I'm no longer taking out my anger my

kid. I'm no longer distant from my from my family, my parents.

I finally spoke to my mom and dad about it. We cried, we

reconciliated, dealt with a lot of childhood issues, childhood trauma. Another coach

came and also walked through with me and with through another trauma, my teenage

trauma, just to get me because he understood what was what was happening.

These two were like very good friends and they really helped me through. And

then I finally decided, Hey, I don't think I want this life anymore.

I don't think I am suitable. So at this point, right I

wasn't like I'm completely heal now I'm gonna take my career different path. No,

because I Finally it finally hit me so hard. I had become a

mini version of this pastor. The way I was pastoring was exactly how this

person passed it. And I begin to see how many people I've also heard

along the way because we lost a lot of young people. They left.

They left because of various reasons, but I'm very sure some left because of

me. I was a lousy pastor. At that point, I was at

my worst. I was using people for the sake of events ministry. I

began to despise myself. I look in the mirror. I got disgusted at

the person I've become. So whoever I was watching this and all that,

I'm generally sorry that I've hurt whoever who is receiving this. I told my

wife, I said, I cannot beat this anymore. I'm causing so much

damage. I am also hurting because I don't like division, right, but

I was causing it by hurting my friends, my colleagues who I actually grew

up with. They were my youth leaders, and now they become a colleagues.

I hurt every single one of them. I was in a very bad

place, angry, full of rich so I thought I could leave and I

had always wanted to put in my resignation, but I was scared. I

was scared because not because of like you know, your no more career,

no more title, whatever. I didn't care about that, but I thought

I need to have some income to support the family. But my wife said,

you know, she's you. He finds a good wife, right,

finds a really good thing, like right. The blessing in all this was

she said, go ahead, God will take care. My wife was the

pastor in the family, not me. She said, go hey, God

will take care. God would provide. Don't worry. My parents say,

whatever you decide. God. My father finally like was really like, you

finally know the truth. That's why I was trying so hard to protect you.

You had to find out for yourself, you know, you to discover

like so drama or I couldn't be the one, you know, to influence

you. But you finally understand, you see the light. I'm glad he

did that because there was very wise of him. And so she said go

ahead. And in twenty twenty, in the pandemic, the first MCO was

bad, loud, we had no choice but to run church right, and

of course the time I was the worship pastor, but I was also the

avy guy. I was the camera guy. I was the sound guy.

I was the everything had to do the recording from my home because I was

the only one with the equipment. I was the sound engineer. I was

mixing and producing and like with the help of one or two volunteers, I'm

like, there's no way I can quit. Now. Everything was on my

shoulders. I'm like, I cannot let the church down. And at this

point, right, I'm like, maybe I should just continue this call,

you know. So it suddenly gave into like a damn mind la, maybe

you power through. Things will get better. But things were not better at

all, because even even out of the office right on ZOOMA, we could

just feel the tension, the animosity and like the division. I'm like,

you know what, screw this enough, it is enough. So second second,

m CEO, things are already back open in church. I was still

the saga or still the worship leader or still there everything, because then people

can only be in the church. Good lie right, the higher one can

do four jobs. H ah. So where I was a yeah, and

I handed in with fear and trembling, and this is what I told God,

I think I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't even know

whether I am going against your will or I'm still in your will, but

it's typed out. I'm in the office. I made this decision. I've

ready made an appointment with the with the sp I'm gonna do it if I

walk, if I walk, even against you, right, God, please

lighten the punishment, see this mindset, lighten the punishment. Please remember me.

Don't forget me. Because at that point, right, I thought,

right, and I still think about it. Right, this is it.

I'm closing the doors once and for all. Wow, right on cue yea.

And so that happened. That was the turning point, and that's when

I walked away from it all. I didn't tell anybody. In fact,

the whole office only found out on the day they they announced the last day

of my of my serving. Notice. The came as a shock, and

I am not spoken about it actually ever since I do today. Yeah.

So what we've heard from your story so far is uh okay. The kind

of leadership you're under definitely influence you to be, to influence your experience,

and influence you to become who you were. Prior to this point, right,

And some of the traits that we hear is because we want to we

want to inspire good leadership with good health and healthy leadership. So that means

we have to talk about like what is not good health a good leadership?

What is not healthy leadership? So what I'm hearing is when when leaders use

fear to lead right, using fear, Uh, if you don't do this,

you get punished when you don't do this, God, God's favor is

not on you when you don't do this. So fear tactic I think causes

people to live in fear. Even if you serve, you serve out of

fear. When you worship alf out of fear. That's what I'm hearing is

not it's not healthy when leaders start to, I guess, create division when

you start talking about other people. Right. You see, by by doing

that, you're kind of right already trying to draw aligne. I think that's

not what the Bible is encourages to do. Right, We're supposed to be

one body united, So when we when leaders start to talk bad about others,

I think that draws a line and it creates a division. When leaders

tend to put themselves on the pedestal. I'm the prophet, I'm the man

of God, woman of God, prophet or God apostle of God. Listen

to me, seem to imply, therefore, only my words carry it,

and only my words is right. I think that again creates unhealthy culture.

So this is some of the things we were able to identify, and we

want to make sure we kind of like lead in a way that is not

out of fear but out of love early in a way where it's not I

guess, manipulative by kind of like putting others down so that I get puffed

up, or also not put ourselves on a pedestal where we are almost like

like God, what I they can I summarize that? Right? Yeah?

I think so. In my in my context, right, the experience of

that leadership that I had was in the languaging and in the behavior, like

because the person has been so influential, the person already knew that I would

not fact check, I would not do any background check on any situation or

any person. So for example, the languaging would be like you know why

this is like that? It's because so the person will actually reveal certain bad

traits about the other person that you know they're talking about, Oh, this

this this person marriage is actually not good one. That's why they are the

directing like that they directing to me, you know, and not to you,

so that they're trying to show that they're protecting or the languaging is you

don't understand. You know, I've already been through this, I've already had

this twenty years under my belt, you know, so so you don't know

what you're talking about. You know, you're still very fresh, you know,

right behind the years. There's all kinds of languaging by saying that did

you know that if you did this right, this would happened? And and

you're not wrong because because you know, you actually did not do your homework

first. So it sounds now as like hearing myself say that, right,

It sounds like like what every parent will say or everything. But but in

terms of ministry, it was it was very detrimental because none of us could

make any decisions ah or or could even could even act out of being so

called sensitive to what God is leading us to do. Okay. Part of

your story is also called how you got help, how you healed, which

is there was a coach that was there. Uh, not everyone in church

was able to help you, but but there was someone. Every thank God

for that someone. So there was coaching, there was you mentioned before you

went for therapy. I think what we can learn from that is that get

help. There is help available. Don't be shy to approach help, even

if it's outside the church. Sometimes you may need professional help to help you

process things, but of course within the church it is. It'll be ideal

and great if there are people in the church who cared, who love,

who genuinely want to be Uh. I want to see you grow and succeed.

Now, if we bring this to a close, right, how do

we bring that that the hope number tree? But how do we bring restore

back redeemed the trust and believe in leadership and church so that we don't end

with like, ah, yeah, nobody wants to be part of the church.

That's nobody want to trust the pastor yeah. So I talked about languaging

earlier. It's actually awareness of what languaging I was also using because the moment

I left the church, my languaging was still the same. I said,

the church has hurt me. The church leadership as a whole. We're not

supportive the churches did the church is that church members also were not nice.

Church members were were some some church members were bullies, uh, and they

had very high expectations and real expectations and all that. So that was my

languaging. As I began to study therapy also right and also understand uh,

what I was going through. I read somewhere that you can blame as he

could have a blankest statement that blames everyone and and use this, in this

case the church as a representation of that bad experience. But actually that's not

the case. Because there is a name to a person who has hurt you.

There is a name to some people who have who have done you wrong.

So if you can actually identify those names, then is it truly the

church has hurt you? Now I realized no, because back in I still

keep in touch with different friends from that church, and they are still the

best people. They're still the nicest people. Once in a while bum into

into them and mols right and they're like, how are you doing and all

that. So it's not the church as bad, right, Not the church

has hurt me as a whole, And it's not the leadership too. The

New Syney pastor messages me from time to time like how doing and praying for

you and your family. I'm like, wow, that's nice. The other

one didn't message message at all. Uh they laugh anyway. So it's identifying

who has heard, and from there continue to separate and identify at what point

did they hurt or did they really hurt you, what they really mean or

were they just being very objective and very blood So it's a whole process of

first doing that and then what was the question again? Yeah, how do

we redeem and restore trust again? Because so otherways it sounds very dying.

Yeah, it's it's like then no point going back to the church. Right.

But you see, in this whole process of trying to risk rebuild who

I was, I begin to realize it's it's everything is all encompassing. You

rebuild your theology. So it's not just deconstructed theology. It's it's like you

have built the lego model wrong, you take it apart, it's not fully

broken. You just need to go back to the manual and rebuild it.

Right. So it's the theology, the spiritual aspect my faith. I had

to rebuild my faith in the sense that I knew because I know that God

is real. I know that God is evident because of my experience even with

my brother and my whole life. So my faith in God was not affected.

My faith in men definitely was affected in leaders. So the whole process

of identifying who helped me restore certain trusts in different leaders. Because I knew

that there was some pastors outside organization, different pastors, I reached out to

only three pastors and all three of them were outside of the country Singapore,

Indonesia, and South Africa. Because these were only three I trusted. I

told them the exact story, no judgment, embraced me, and they walked

through with me. Also, so I know that it's the same thing.

Not all Christians are bad man, right, one, two bad apples,

that's just the whole bunch. So they had a role by instilling the trust

that you can also be a good pastor in uncount They're trying to encourage me

to go back into the full time call, like when you go to the

church, when you which is you going to work for now? Like chill

Chell, chill que And so I talked about the spiritual and theology and the

faith mentally, I had to also trust myself again because I saw my self

doubt, second guessing. Even till today, there is some second guessing.

I talked about opening the box. Yesterday I had a huge moment of like,

did all this really happen? I doubted all the experiences because there was

a whole wave of emotions and so the whole process of rebuilding, even the

confidence. I went to the gym and that that does a lot. That

rebuilt everything. Actually, I'm more confident now than the previous version. I

know exactly who I am now because the pandemic was a blessing for Mela.

It was a luxury because I finally got to spend time with my kids.

We had our second kid in the pandemic. And then suddenly now because the

thirty came. So I'm like, I'm a family man, I'm a stay

home that. I'm confidently saying that without any shame, because I feel like

stay home dead. Why you lost your job? Is it? No?

I walked away from my job. Why was it? Was it? Because

you know of many reasons? Say no, I wanted to be to stay

home there because I wanted to redeem myself as a father, My first kids

say Papa, I don't love you. When she was three years old.

That cut like a knife, man like, it slices me to pieces.

And so ever since then, I've been trying to work on my redemption with

her. I can confidently say that I love where I am now in this

space. I don't want to understand a lot of things still. I don't

understand a lot of theology still, because I'm it's always a learning process.

I don't understand what's really happening in the in the previous church, but it

doesn't affect me anymore because I know exactly what I'm supposed to do now.

And so that's why I can't just identify and say that these are the things

that happen is this iss is. I'm not gonna add any more to that.

I'm not going to add any emotion to that to stir up and to

cause any trouble. I don't want to. I can, but I don't

want to, because the wiser thing to do is to focus on the now

and then now is to raise the next generation, which is my kids are,

and in the in the current church that I'm serving now, I'm just

enjoying it. I'm like, I'm going to church. I'm not scheduled to

preach. I have no pressure to perform, no pressure who speak prophetic words

into people's life and ask for prayer because back then we were expected to because

profit muss, so you must emulate the same thing I don't. I begin

to have more confidence in my prophetic gifting, in my worship giftings and all.

I'm like, actually it's not so bad. So there is hope to

come out of all that, and to be in a place where it's actually

okay to navigate this space where things aren't fully rebuilt, but the foundation feels

a lot more solid than it was before. Great. We have some questions

that we want to go through, and I think it'll be good for some

of these questions to be answered while the recording is happening, because I think

that it is a value. But before we go into questions, let me

just attempt to summarize a little bit what we've learned so far tonight is that

church trauma is real. It does happen, and just trauma generally happens because

of I don't know, poor leadership and healthy leadership, and I generally don't

think leaders are intentionally doing. So maybe they themselves have not been led well,

so that's the only way they know how to lead. Perhaps, I

don't know. I think in this context, I can look back now,

right, yeah, I can only pinpoint one year. It was great two

thousand. That was the year everything flourished because everything was aligned. But I

now, as I look back and I put all the pieces together, this

pastor had the best intentions actually very genuine and when the ministry flourished, it

grew from thirty to one hundred to two hundred, became the actually the largest

youth group back then. It was then. I think they this pasta allowed

different things to affect power, okay, their power, their influence, and

begin to look like, hey I can actually do more and I can actually

gain more. Yeah, so I think I think that's when the change happened.

Now, which could happen, Which could happen? And I'm also trying

to like also zoom out a little bit from that one pasta to just in

general, like it can happen to any of us. I'm a pastor,

Yeah, so it can happen to It could happen to me, right even

you know, with this got gets successful, I become super famous and there's

like three million views, then I gotta I gotta watch out for that.

As I'm saying this, I'm saying to myself, don't let get don't let

success get your head and stuff like that. Right, But what we're trying

to say is that when leaders don't lead well, it can cause trauma.

It can cause trauma means injury. So some some injury are self inflicted.

Some injury are not right. Some injuries because someone didn't sweep the nails from

the floor. You saw it by the inship away, so some child will

step on it and get hurt. Yep, So leadership can be like that.

We see the science, but we don't don't do anything about it.

People get hurt. So church trauma is real. It does happen. It

happens in churches, it happens everywhere, and generally it's because of leadership when

it's unhealthy, when it's unwise, when it's not careful. So we want

to watch out for that. But I like what you say at the end,

there is a name to the person. We don't Just because one church

hurt you doesn't mean all churches are bad. Just because one leader in that

church doesn't mean all leaders are bad, so we don't walk away. And

as people say, don't throw away the baby with the baffa, right,

So I guess being able to name and being able to be specific, this

pastor hurt me, but all the other pastors did not. So I don't

give up one past us. This church was not healthy for me whatever was

happening there. So I may walk away from this church, but I don't

have to walk away from the church, right and definitely these people are human

beings who claim to represent Jesus. And maybe they hurt you, but Jesus

is hurt you. So like, okay, this Jesus person hurt me,

Now I walk away from Jesus. That is totally not necessarily like right,

okay, So let's get into some questions. Now, A question here about

leadership. What what advice do you have for leaders who want to do right

by God and for those they're discipling. I want to learn this. I'm

going to leader now. I want to learn what what what would you give?

You know, whatever would you give the leaders so that we can do

it right and you know we won't hurt those discipling. I think I think

if if I look at the leader now, right, I want to see

the leaders posture of humility because in Asian culture, I don't know, right,

maybe Asian culture, or maybe it's just globally, like okay, maybe

globally, a lot of leaders are always put on a pedestal and leaders are

pressured not by their own own doing. Sometimes this is it by expectations and

not their pressure to I want to have the right things to say, the

facts, the the most profound things to say and do to make to make

a lot of the followers to be like, wow, that's why you're a

leader. Right. But I think humility is the key, and it's the

hardest because if a leader is not teachable, even when someone younger or inexperience

becomes a lesson for them and they don't take it well, then that's where

it becomes like a crack in the wall mhm and and and little cracks in

the wall. Eventually the wall will crumble because they don't they don't identify like

these are potential potential things that could that could affect their leadership style. Right,

and how did you do? Right? By God, I read this

so my my my philosophies now have been very much influenced a lot by people

like people like Adam Grant, Paul Scanlon, and Edit Grant said. Adam

Grant said this the three ways you can become a leader, One like a

politician, one like a preacher, and one like a scientist. I'm paraphrasing.

A politician would try agendas, you know, promise everything for it's a

whole world. A preacher is like it's like, you know, just shoving

things down, just telling people, you know, like just do this,

do this, do this. Scientists will always test, test their theories,

test right or wrong if they if they made a mistake, great because it's

a lesson and they continuously learn from their mistakes. And I actually resonate a

lot with that, Like thinking like a scientist helps me become a better leader

because I'm not always right, and my word is not always you know,

absolute, and when it comes to the things of God, you're not always

accurate. So always be humble and learn, and even if you're wrong right,

be first to say I'm I was wrong, because all leaders don't say

that. I didn't say that. I kept I kept saying that. You

know, this has to be the wailer and push and then, of course

members don't want to fight past asma, so like, yeah, okay,

okay, so I don't want to be that kind leader anymore. So moving

from that, someone here commented and then the question I feel, so I

read as it is. I feel sometimes this iron style of leadership style,

this iron leadership style can create strong devotion and powerful spiritual presence, which,

right, if you're strong and you're assertive, it can kind of like inspire

the kind of strong devotion and all that. Right, it works there,

so lead us do it. But how do we reconcile that we unhealthy readership?

How why is that unhealthy? Are we calling it unhealthy? If you

are very I don't know. Iron face dictator almost because it works well.

It creates devotion, it gets things done, it brings results. So I

believe, at least in the church context, this is this is something I've

been pondering about, and I could be wrong here, Okay. CineMo Edi

told me this one day. One day, he said, John, gone

are the days of the darling checks, the dormoens and the individual worship leaders.

This was in the context of worship. I said, really, so

yeah, there will not be an age of era where there will be annimohdes

it's an age of collaboration. I'm like, Okay, that opened my mind.

It helped me reframe. So I took that and I pondered and I

and I realized that that can apply to leadership, meaning that an iron leadership

usually will always have one person always driving it. I see that there needs

to be and I'm taking it from a biblical perspective, right in a sense,

if I were to if we were to translate the trinity into leadership,

now we all have our understanding of the trinity, and it's not possible in

a human context. But hear me out. If a leadership is trifle,

then there's check and balance as accountability there is. There is a lot of

dynamics. It's not just one person because if one person has an iron leadership,

everybody generally like yeah, and you just need to have yes men,

right, you can drive things through, no problem. That works for all

organizations. But eventually, in the age of collaboration, I think in the

future, leadership has to be many folk. It could be a pair,

it could be three. I like three like ers of the whole trinity concept.

But that's what I feel leadership should have. The check and ballance is

very crucial. So it's not just the previous hich I was in. But

as I look across, because I was so intrigued by this, right,

I look across all the other churches that had individual leaderships or very strong personalities,

every single one of these leaderships actually struggle with retaining devotion, loyalty,

and in the pandemic it showed, at least in the Asian context, the

Malaysian context, a lot of churches actually lost and the characteristics were all this

leaderships. Now, some work, some doesn't, some are in different seasons

and all. But as I look deeper into some who were case studies,

they all had a toxic culture. They were hiding. So I mean,

look good on the front, as like you know, a good force to

reckon with, but at the back, behind the scenes, there was a

lot of problems, a lot of cracks ready, and I don't think God

intended, I don't know, for that kind of leadership for the church,

because he can also remove the person. Right, So check and balance,

I think that's the simple answer. But I have three strong ones to make

sure that no one's outline. So plural leadership into the single leadership. Okay,

we've got time for two more questions, but you've got to keep the

answers shot. Okay, So first one, and I think it's important because

it's kind of relates. Number one is this one. Is it possible to

remain in the church that has toxic toxic culture or poor leadership? How would

you advise those serving under such situations? Mhm, it's your decision. No

one has asked you to stay or leave. It's really yours. It was

my decision. I could state, had I stayed, I will become worth

it. That's that's how I saw it. Now, should you stay should

you leave? That one really depends on your style of how you submit,

follow or colead or can turn a blind eye. And like, I just

carry on it. I surf in my own little pocket. My so my

friends stayed back to surf in the church, and they're doing well, they're

thriving in their little pocket. Uh, it's not still not great. I

still I still hear what's going on. So you can stay. If you

know how to survive in that environment, you can stay and speak up.

But I don't know where that will get you because it's systemic, as all

things systemic. It takes a lot more than just speaking up. It takes

a momentum. But if you truly feel that now we've got speaking to you

because you sought the Lord to stay or to leave, then you need to

follow his planner because I can't tell you what the plan is, right,

Yeah, yep, okay, another one for you For those of us who

grew up serving in church since young, what question should we ask ourselves in

reflection to know if we what we went through was healthy or not? So

what should we ask ourselves? I asked myself this yesterday. Was I being

a spot bred, petty, little whiny young pastor? My answer was yes

and no. I grapple with it. How you want to recognize identify really

depends on because we are we are also governed by a lot of emotions and

something emotions. If we don't read it as data, we are led by

it, so our emotions could could filter and and I think for me it

had to be a lot of removal of filters. Had to be very honest

with myself first to recognize whether whether it was my own responsibility, my own

doing, or it was something all my control. Maybe it's just some displeasure

and like disagreement with the leadership or with church members and all. And I

want to get at this. I constantly ask myself this, is there a

point where there will be reconciliation? Is there a point where there will be

forgiveness? There is a per I can only come to this answer. There

is a percentage I have for given to a certain percentage. If I can't

face to face that a person, I don't know, because if you catch

me on the wrong day, Uh, it's hot, it's hot. I

I be very honest, it's hard. So I'm dealing. I'm still doing

dealing with a lot. And and how do I recognize if, let's say,

for hypothetically, in this currentcation, i'm serving in aura and if i'm

if I find that anything unhealthy, is it healthy? I think with my

understanding now, I would talk about it with the leadership, with people if

it's If it's something I can identify, great, If it's not, I'll

just wait and see. Because to call it too soon too early also not

good. Call it too late, well, that thing you can do.

But at this point currently, if you're feeling that you're not sure, it's

okay to wait it out it's not life or death. And if it doesn't

impact your health mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and you can still

like keep an arm slang and that's fine. How would I answers that?

Yeah, so there's a question for me. So I'll end the talk by

answering that. But before that, if I may contribute to the answer to

that question, I think one simple, one simple test, litmus test for

me is when you are deciding doing something out of fear of that leader rather

than God, I think it's a predicious signer the mesical I am not missing

this weekend service, not really because God will be unhappy. It's more like,

what would my pastor say, or would my sel leaders say. I

think that's a pretty sious sign that something's off, I would say. So

that will lead to my question. Someone asked me past the ND how do

you come to realization you were choosing your leader over your family or wife and

that's not right. Was it to trust friends who nudged you or et cetera.

Now, okay, I did say that it took me ten years to

realize it. So I didn't realize it for ten years, ten whole years,

the whole ten years, I was thinking I was honoring God by pleasing

the men. I did what I did to please my leader, thinking that

I was honoring God, because the messaging is don't touch lots, annoying it.

If you honor me, your honor God. Now again, don't try

a baby out with about water. Right, there's some truth in it.

Right, give me you like, if I honor my parents, I'm honoring

God too, because God told me to honor my parents. So yes,

there is truth to that. But I think the distinction is fear. When

you do it out of fear of men and not God, that's something wrong.

So for ten years I thought choosing someone else over my wife was honoring

God, not realizing that not choosing my wife is dishonoring God. Right,

how do I realize it? I didn't realize it for ten years. How

they realize it ten years later. And this is why it's important to have

a third voice in your life, to hear from somebody else, because again

I don't have it's a it's a three hour stories. I don't have the

time to get to the details. But through a serious of circumstances, I

ended up having a conversation with somebody. Yep, a third voice, a

pastor who is not in my usual circle of life, who related a story

to me. And this is where I knew, I knew his God.

He related a story to me. Right, there's almost exactly like mine.

He told me about this other pastor who chose his leader away his own wife.

I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait wait,

sounds too familiar to the detail, to the timeline, because his thing

happened ten years ago too. Yep. I'm like, and I woke up

because this pastor was telling me this other pastor chose she's just always why.

I'm like, wait to me, yeah, you mean there's oh yeah,

it's not right. Yeah, And I realized I did it out of fear

of man rather than than God. So I think that's quite a clear sign,

quite a clear sign. There's nothing wrong if you're loyal because of God.

There's nothing wrong if you're like seven days in church because you really want

on God. Better is one day in your course? No whatever. I

think like that, if it's for good. But sometimes we get mixed up

when it's really I fear my position, I fear my standing with so and

so, I feel whatever, and we mask it saying it's God when it's

really not, because I don't think God will make you choose your family over

someone else and stuff like that, and of course we need to process this

and all that is a lot of talk about. But we have to end

this show because you know it's late, and we will talk about it,

yep, when we meet again for GT or Oh, you can talk about

this in your small groups, in your mobile session or wherever you are meeting.

Let's I think it's important to process this. Yeah, I don't think.

I don't think the expectation is to watch something like this and expect all

of the answers. But I think we're doing this to open up this box

so that we can talk about it openly, uh, and not hide anymore,

and not whisper and gossip. We don't gossip. We want to healthily

talk about this. Yeah, yep, So I thank you for coming here

and opening this box. It's a little bit messy now. I'm pretty sure

those watching, those here watching have a ton of questions and accusations too.

Yeah, but let's come on, believers, Christians, disciples of Jesus out

there. Let's let's talk about this in a healthy way. Yeah, well

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