Building Bridges: Pastors and Music Leaders

All right, we've come to the last session where I'm teaching.

And what a sweet time this has been.

! I just am so always amazed at how the Lord just kind of ties things together.

! And it's really the relationships, really the conversations that you have.

And He just makes Himself known in different ways.

So He's so kind.

This last session is on building bridges, pastors, and music leaders.

And then we're going to take a brief break and do a Q&A.

And so David is looking through all those Q's right now.

And hopefully he's going to have some great A's to respond to them with.

So here's the situation.

There have been years, decades, really, centuries of history

where the leaders of the church, the pastors of the church,

have been in conflict with the musicians.

And it's for different reasons.

Pastors usually have something to do with judgmentalism, sinful judgment.

Pastors tend to see musicians as temperamental.

Who would have thought?

Late, unorganized, non-theological, trendy, unresponsive, proud, etc.

Worship leaders, physicians have tended to see their pastors sometimes as controlling,

angry, demanding, insensitive, out of touch, over-detailed, non-relational, proud, etc.

And in those kinds of situations,

we just forget that our worship is not just what we do on Sunday mornings.

It's our relationships.

The two things that God says we're to do,

they have to do with relationship.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Not get your meeting right.

It's important to get our meetings right.

We want to strive to do our meetings well.

But at the heart of it is the relationships.

And if you're married, it's your relationship with your spouse

is the primary issue.

And then it's you with your kids.

And then it's with your church, your pastor, and those you work with.

Paul says in Romans 15,

he makes it clear that, verses 5 and 6,

he makes it clear that God wants us to glorify him,

not just in our public ministry,

but in the way we relate to one another.

He says, may the God of endurance encouragement grant you,

so it comes from God,

grant you to live in such harmony with one another

in accord with Christ Jesus

that together you may with one voice

glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have been immensely privileged

to serve for almost every part of my life

40 years of pastoral ministry.

I've been leading music for 50,

but I've been in pastoral ministry for 40.

And my relationship with my pastor

is on the whole, massively on the whole,

been extremely encouraging.

It hasn't come without, you know,

let me make sure that we're okay here,

battery one.

I think I am.

Are we okay?

Yeah.

It hasn't come without buddy heads at times

and, you know, different issues to talk through,

but a lot of these things that I'm going to share

have come through things I've seen or heard.

You know, people come saying,

I've got this situation.

What do I do?

So if you're an employed musician in a church,

like a worship pastor, worship leader,

a few years back they did a survey

and the average length of time for someone like that

was two to three years in a church,

which doesn't speak well of what's going on.

I don't suspect that's happening here,

but it's always good for us to just get a recheck

on how are we to think about this.

So the way I framed it is,

first section is on what pastors

wish their worship leaders knew.

Second section, what worship leaders

wish their pastors knew.

And the third section is just

how we can work together as a team.

So let's begin with what pastors

wish their worship leaders knew.

And to be completely transparent,

these are things your pastor would want you to know

if I was your pastor.

So your pastor may not be like this,

but I suspect that it's true in more cases than not.

So I think there are,

I think there are how many of these?

There are 12 of these,

because there's just more to say.

Pastors, first, pastors, not worship leaders,

will give an account to God

for the people in their church.

Hebrews 13, 17,

obey your leaders and submit to them,

for they are keeping watch over your souls,

as though who will have to give an account.

Those who will have to give an account.

Let them do this with joy,

not with groaning,

for that would be of no advantage to you.

They have to give an account.

So to any music leader who is saying,

yeah, my pastor wants me to do this,

well, you know what?

Your pastor has to give an account to God

for what he's doing.

Once you've expressed your thoughts

and shared what you think,

if he's still saying,

no, I want to do this,

okay, he's gonna have to give an account

to God for that.

So you should gladly submit.

Make it a joy for him to do what he's doing.

Pastors are ultimately responsible

for the song diet

and the teaching of the church.

So they should know in advance

what songs are gonna be sung.

The pastor asked me one time,

yeah, my worship leader

doesn't want to show me the songs in advance,

and I said, time out, time out.

He should be volunteering

to show those to you.

You're responsible.

You have to give an account.

I want you to know

what we're going to be singing.

And it's not inappropriate at all

for a pastor to say,

yeah, I'd just like to know in advance

and have the freedom

to be able to change things

if I don't think it's gonna be

exactly what it should be.

And if you want a pastor's trust,

you're gonna have to earn it.

Or if you want my trust,

you'll have to earn it.

It's not like,

hey, yeah, just do whatever you want

and we'll clean up whatever happens.

No, I want to trust you,

so you'll have to earn that.

So pastors have to give an account to God

for the people in the church too.

God's word to us

matters more than our words to God.

Isaiah 66, 2.

This is the one to whom I will look,

he who is humble and contrite in spirit,

and trembles at my word.

Now it's true,

we share a lot,

we speak a lot of words to God.

But before we speak any words to God,

we have to know he's spoken to us.

There are a lot of idle words

that get spoken,

but are not heard

because God has never spoken

to the people who said them

in the first place.

music ministry is a word ministry.

It's not just the time

when we express everything we want

and then the teaching time

is the time when we listen.

Some people will go to one church

for the music

and then to another church

for the teaching.

That's so unhelpful.

That's so unwise.

Music ministry is a word ministry.

We don't want to underestimate

the importance,

the significance,

the effect of proclaiming God's truth,

proclaiming God's word passionately.

So I'd want you to know your Bible

better than your instrument,

or at least as well as your instrument.

Don't spend hours and hours practicing

and give 15 minutes to the word.

If I'm your pastor,

that's what I'd be saying to you.

Lead us to sing the word,

to hear the word,

to see the word,

to pray the word.

Your music ministry

is a word ministry.

Number three,

we are what we sing,

therefore choose our songs

and lyrics wisely.

There's an article

that came out in late,

I think in the 90s,

said we are what we sing.

Others have said it.

We are what we sing.

We tend to take on the shape,

the formation,

the values of what we sing.

You're discipling the congregation

through your song choices

and through the lyrics.

And for better or worse,

this is always a disappointment to pastors,

people will remember the songs

more than they'll remember your sermons.

No one knows,

can quote a John Wesley sermon,

I don't think.

Everybody knows

Hark the Herald Angels Sing.

It's because his brother wrote it.

And it's a song.

Chuck.

Chuck Wesley wrote that.

Wonder if there was any comparison.

No, I think they got along pretty well,

John and Charles.

So build a repertoire of songs.

I'd want you to build a repertoire of songs

that express the different aspects

of God's glory and character and works

and the appropriate responses to them.

and make sure we're singing them.

We just, we want to,

this kind of flows out of the transitions talk.

We want to,

we want to make people aware of the whole story.

And to make them aware of the whole story,

we have to sing different kinds of songs.

So we don't just sing songs

because they're popular.

You know,

a funny thing has happened

over the last 30 years

where,

and it's probably longer than that,

but worship songs have,

are like the top 40.

You know,

because we have the CCLI charts now

that tell you

what are the most popular songs.

We have YouTube that tells us

what has the most views

and, you know,

the people who are the most popular.

And those songs may not be the right ones

for your church

if they're not saying

what your church needs to say.

So writing a song that's catchy

with catchy words

is a lot easier

than writing a song

that your church needs to sing.

So I'd say,

so think about the diet.

Think about the repertoire.

Number four,

while song introductions can be helpful,

you're not the preacher.

And this is kind of a balance

to what I shared earlier.

Your primary role

is to enable the word of Christ

to dwell in us richly,

not to preach that word of Christ.

So when you're going to give a,

you know,

some kind of instruction

between the songs,

generally less is going to be more.

Generally.

Now you may be someone

who doesn't say anything

and your pastor

is going to say more.

Okay, great.

But generally,

for a musician,

to start talking

is to walk into trouble.

It's often happened.

We've seen it.

And typically,

less is more.

Choose great songs

and you won't have to say as much.

Choose great songs.

Number five,

but we're going to get through this

fairly quickly,

which we'll leave more time for Q&A.

Prayers are corporate conversations

with God,

not filler.

Prayers are corporate conversations

with God,

not filler.

Don't pray

just because you feel awkward

or don't know what to do.

Yeah,

they're not space fillers.

They are engaging with God.

Use your prayers

to speak for the congregation,

not just yourself.

It's always a little bit awkward

when the person in front

is just talking to God about,

God,

I just love you so much.

Lord,

just thank you for being with us.

Lord,

you're just so amazing.

It's like,

there's like a whole crowd

of people in the room

and we're just listening in

on this prayer.

We're praying for the congregation,

so we want to think corporately,

congregationally.

It's an opportunity to model

what theologically informed,

biblically rooted,

Christ-exalting prayer looks like.

So yeah,

to write it out,

great.

But the better thing

would be to know the Lord

so well

and to be so attentive

to what you're doing

that it just flows out of you,

that you're able to interact

in that moment.

And this is just an extra.

Don't mix up members of the Trinity

and don't pray as though

God has forgotten his name.

Lord,

we just thank you,

Father,

Lord Jesus,

for the Holy Spirit.

Thank you,

Lord,

for just being with us,

Lord.

Father,

thank you for dying

on the cross for us

and we're just so grateful,

Spirit,

that you,

Father,

didn't die on the cross for us,

Jesus did.

That's an important distinction.

Just things like that.

But I hear prayers like that

and just go,

just slow down.

Just slow down.

Think about what you're saying.

You know,

when we read,

I was just reading Thessalonians,

where the writers

are so specific

about the members of the Trinity.

Listen to what Paul says.

We give thanks to God

always for you,

constantly mentioning you

in our prayers,

remembering before our God

and Father

your work of faith

and labor of love

and steadfastness

of hope

in our Lord Jesus Christ.

For we know,

brothers,

loved by God

that he has chosen you

because our gospel

came to you

not only in word

but also in power

and with the Holy,

in the Holy Spirit

and with full conviction.

So he's just talking to them

about, you know,

the fact that I'm praying for you

and these are the things

I'm praying,

this is what we know.

And he mentions all three persons

of the Trinity.

You know,

may the,

I always get this wrong

so I'm not going to try it.

May,

in the 2nd Corinthians,

here it is right here,

may the grace

of the Lord Jesus Christ

and the love of God

and the fellowship

of the Holy Spirit

be with you all.

2nd Thessalonians,

it says,

may our Lord Jesus Christ

himself

and God our Father

who loved us

and gave us eternal comfort

and good hope

through grace.

You know,

it's like,

what is this?

Well,

they're recognizing

that God is triune.

He's Father,

Son,

and Spirit.

And if you haven't read

Delighting in the Trinity,

by Michael Reeves,

you should read it.

It says,

a very helpful book

about remembering

why it's so good

and delightful

that God is Father,

Son,

and Spirit.

All right,

number,

where are we at?

Six.

Your job is to support

congregational singing,

not overwhelm

or overpower it.

So,

as I'm telling my musicians,

Ephesians 5,

19,

we're addressing

one another

in psalms and hymns

and spiritual songs.

If we can't hear ourselves,

it's hard to address each other.

We're not just here

to listen to you.

You know,

when someone's leading

a song on a microphone,

they don't have to be

on that microphone

the entire song,

especially if the congregation

knows it really well.

It's not like we've come

to hear your voice.

We've come to hear

each other's voices.

That's a different perspective.

Make sure your sound person

knows the value

of the congregation's voice.

Don't assume

the instrumentalists

have to play constantly.

You know,

if we're up here on stage,

we should be playing.

No,

that's not true.

You can take a break.

Sometimes the best thing

you can do

is take a break.

How can I contribute?

Take a break.

That's not what I was looking for.

I know.

I know it's not

what you're looking for,

but really,

you will add more

if you play less.

it's kind of counterintuitive.

Pull back from your vocal mic sometimes.

Stop playing your instruments sometimes.

Let us sing a cappella.

That's what I'd be saying

to my music guy.

Number seven,

truth matters more than tunes,

but that doesn't mean

we should sing great theology

to bad melodies

or bad accompaniment.

So the music does matter.

Choose songs the congregation

can enjoy singing

and can sing.

And occasionally mix up

the arrangement.

Change the arrangement,

the feel,

the tempo,

so the congregation

can hear the lyrics

in a fresh way.

We are really about

what are these songs saying?

What should we be thinking about?

And if you do a song

the exact same way

every time you do it,

that will be a little harder

to figure out.

Number eight,

keys that serve

the congregation

are better than keys

that make you sound good.

Yeah, that's Philippians 2,

3, and 4.

Do nothing from selfish ambition

or conceit,

but in humility

count others more significant

than yourself.

Let each of you look

not only to his own interests,

but also to the interests

of others.

Some churches where,

you know,

if a guy leads,

it's in this key.

If a girl leads,

it's in this key.

And that may be true

like within a step or so,

but not like when it's

a fourth or a fifth difference.

You know,

when a guy sings,

it's in G.

When a girl sings,

it's in D.

No, you're a poor congregation.

You know,

the one is too high,

the other's too low.

Let's find that middle spot

where you may not sound

as your very possible

American Idol best,

but the congregation

will be able to enjoy

singing it.

So generally,

that falls within a range

of an A to a D.

Generally,

there are exceptions,

but if you're singing

a lot of Ds,

your women are probably dying.

And if you're singing

low Gs,

low Fs,

your guys are not

going to be able to,

they're not going to be able

to sing with passion.

It's just not there.

So just try to find

that sweet spot

of a song

that lies within that range.

Yeah,

we don't compare

to listen to you sing,

but lift up our voices.

Yeah,

if you do have

a higher voice,

then use that voice

to fill in between lines.

If you're the leader,

don't sing harmony

all the time

because that's confusing

to your people.

But if,

you know,

and as he stands

in victory,

as he stands,

or whatever,

you know,

do something,

not like that,

but do something

that's in between the lines

that will encourage people

as they're singing the song.

Not to show off,

but to augment

or draw attention

to the content

of what we're singing.

So,

yeah,

as the congregations

get weary

if they have to sing

a lot of high D's

and E's.

Although there are

exceptions to this.

The song Praise,

it's like number two

or three on CCLI.

I've got a reason

to praise the Lord.

I mean,

it's a great song,

but that's a high A

in the original song.

It's a high A.

And it's a fun song,

and, you know,

but I just couldn't

lead that song

because it's got

a wide range as well,

so if you bring it down,

it's just hard

to make it all work together.

If your congregation

is all 20-somethings,

they'll probably do great.

All right,

number nine,

don't teach us

so many new songs

that we never learn them

and so few new songs

that we fail

to benefit from them.

All right,

so there's that tension.

Don't do so many new songs

that we never have

the time to learn them

and don't do so few new songs

that we fail

to benefit from them.

Years ago,

I used to try to teach

two new songs every month,

24 songs a year.

That,

I don't know how we did that.

I don't know why we did that,

but we did it,

and it seemed to work

for a couple years.

But now,

we probably teach

10 songs,

maybe.

Some of those

we do once,

but a lot of them

we do because

we want to

inject them

into the repertoire

of the church.

So yeah,

it varies.

You know,

learning two,

three songs

every couple months

is doable.

Learning four songs

a month isn't.

And the problem is

we have access

to so many songs now,

don't we?

There,

I just did this research

recently.

I forget how many

worship songs

are being uploaded

a year.

Oh,

I want to say

something like

2,500.

But,

well,

maybe it was

1,000 a month,

which would be

24,000.

It's a lot.

It's a lot.

You can't do

all those songs.

And not all

those songs

are really great.

A lot of them

have some good

things in them.

Let's sing

the really great

songs.

We do about

110 songs a year

total

for any given

calendar year.

That's because

there's 52 weeks,

you'll probably

repeat half of them.

So we do five songs

a Sunday,

typically.

And 52 weeks,

that's 260 songs.

We do half of them

twice.

That's right,

now you've got 130.

130 songs

that you're doing.

And then do some

of them three times,

well,

that's probably

down to 110.

So we do about

110 songs a year.

We can be really

choosy about what

we do.

So don't do

so many new songs

people can't remember,

but don't do so few

that people don't

benefit.

There's a really,

really great song

that fits into

what your church

is learning,

or a song that

they just should sing.

So when Yet

Not I came out,

I thought,

this is the song

I want to sing.

This is going to

serve our church

for years and years.

So I just looked

for a time

that would be right

to introduce it.

Because every song

says something,

and you want to

incorporate,

again,

think about transitions,

you want to incorporate

it in a time

when it makes sense,

not just because

it's a great song.

Number 10,

blaming sin

on being a musician

doesn't make it

any less sinful.

moodiness,

oversensitivity,

procrastination,

pride,

irresponsibility,

and laziness

aren't due

to being a musician.

They're due

to indwelling sin.

And it's not

generally helpful

when musicians

just hang around

with other musicians

because we can all

cover for ourselves.

Yeah,

of course you're like,

yeah,

I get it,

I get it,

get to know

non-musicians

in your church.

Be a part of a small group

that's not just musicians.

Always discourage

musical small groups.

I mean,

you know,

this is going to be

our small group,

the band.

I don't think you'll,

because we just start

to think everybody

thinks like us.

It's not true.

People have problems

for the same reasons

we do,

they're just,

they're different problems.

The roots are the same.

And I expect you

to tell me

if there's anything

in your life

that would make

what you're doing

disqualifying.

It would disqualify

you for what you're doing.

I would expect

that of a musician,

especially a leader.

Number 11,

your goal isn't leading.

Your goal in leading

isn't performing,

but pastoring

and participation.

That's shepherding,

you might say.

If the people

in your church

generally aren't singing,

then you're,

what you're doing

is probably more performing

than leading

congregational worship.

And you want to aim

to shepherd their souls,

not put on a show.

Your job isn't done

just because you practiced.

You know,

we practiced

for two hours this week.

Okay,

that's great,

excellent.

Your job

is to shepherd people

to sing,

to give them reasons

to sing

when we gather.

Reasons churches

don't sing

include range.

We talked about that.

Melody being too difficult,

the band being too loud,

too many new songs,

the arrangements

too complicated

or too new.

Yeah,

there are just

a lot of reasons.

We just want

to make sure

that whosoever up here

is encouraging people

to sing

by portraying Christ

in all his glory

to them

through the words

we're singing

and the scriptures

we're reading.

And leading

with your eyes open

most of the time

will communicate

your care

and also help you gauge

how people are responding.

So if I had a leader

who was like this

all the time,

all the time,

I would say,

open your eyes,

look at us,

let us know

you're happy to be here.

Let us know

that we are doing

this together.

That's a good thing

to communicate.

And then finally

for the pastors,

ultimately,

or for the music leaders,

ultimately Christ

is our worship leader,

not you.

I just want you

to know that.

You don't have

to feel the pressure

to bring us

into the throne room

because you can.

Jesus has already

done that.

Therefore,

brothers,

since we have confidence

to enter the holy places

by the blood of Jesus,

by the new and living way

that he opened for us

through the curtain

that is through his flesh,

and since we have

a great priest

over the house of God,

let us draw near.

It's open.

The way is open.

We're in Christ.

We're seated

in the heavenly places.

We're just reminding people.

So don't feel pressure

about leading us.

I don't want you

to come in with this anxiety

as you're leading

the congregation.

It's a joy.

It's a privilege.

It's what an opportunity

to let people know

how glorious Christ is.

And the more you point

us to what Christ has done

and is doing for us,

the less will see you.

So those are some

of the things

that I want my worship

pastor to know.

Now let's flip it

and say,

if I am the music leader,

the worship pastor,

what would I want

my pastor to know?

I think there are

10 of these.

Yeah.

Oh, 11.

Okay.

I must have added one.

All right.

Communication in advance

makes for a more unified,

edifying meeting.

Just let me know

ahead of time

something of what's coming

really helps me.

Not figure out the meeting,

you know,

Saturday night

as you get your message to me.

and I'm trying to

put everything together.

I'd rather know

what you want

before the meeting

than after the meeting.

Now that requires

the musician

getting the stuff

to the pastor

before the meeting,

but I'd rather know

what you want

before the meeting

rather than after the meeting.

The earlier I know

you're preaching,

for us,

the better we can prepare

the last song.

Although we have

a very flexible

thing going there.

you know,

I'll send out

the liturgy,

maybe we talk about

this in Q&A,

but on Tuesday afternoon

generally,

and then I'll say

to this preacher,

hey, if you have

a better last song,

let me know.

And then sometimes

they'll email me

Saturday

or sometimes

Sunday morning

and sometimes

we'll just show up

and say,

okay, we're not

doing that song.

And then sometimes

it'll come in the last

10 minutes of the message

and we'll realize

the song we pick

is not the right song.

And I'll just text

everybody in the group

and we have

an admin,

Amanda,

who's just amazing.

We'll say,

Amanda, we're doing

this song

and the projectionist

gets it.

Everybody gets it.

And then we come up

and as the pastor's praying,

she just distributes

that paper

and all everybody's,

you know,

music stand

and then we just

do the song.

And it works.

You know,

we don't use like

iPads and stuff.

That'd make it easier,

I guess.

but our goal

is to sing songs

that are going to fit,

that are relevant,

that are a right response

to the message.

Yes,

so church will be

better served

if we've coordinated

what we're going to do

in advance.

The way we do this

is we plan on Tuesday,

put the whole thing

together

and then send it out

and then any pastors

can get back to me

if they think

that something

should be different,

want something changed,

want something added.

Sometimes a guy

will say,

hey,

can I do this

scripture instead?

You know,

and then we arrive Sunday

and things might change

during the week.

Oh,

we have this testimony

we forgot about

or we're having a baptism.

Once I plan,

we plan a Sunday

and then we found out

we're doing communion.

Oh,

okay,

great,

let's just change that.

But we're trying

to be intentional

in our planning

but then also be open

to changes.

Our plan's not

the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit

helps us plan,

plan's not the Holy Spirit.

Two,

consistent and specific

encouragement

and evaluation

will make me

a better leader.

Consistent and specific

encouragement

and evaluation

will make me

a better leader.

And I have been

blessed

to have had

a senior pastor

for

almost 30 years

who has

modeled this.

I remember

the early years

when I first

moved to

a church in Maryland

where C.J. Mahoney

was the senior pastor.

He would pull me aside

after the meeting

every week

and just say,

hey,

this was really great.

This was really great.

This is,

I really appreciate

when you repeat

that chorus.

And then a couple

things that maybe

could do better.

Don't do this.

Some of those things

have stayed with me

for decades.

He shared them.

It wasn't complicated.

It wasn't heavy.

It was just,

yeah,

I think this could be

better.

And what it did

was teach me

how to discern.

Taught me,

like,

okay,

oh,

I felt that

that was too long

when I shared that.

And he said,

yeah,

that went a little long.

Oh,

great.

So when I feel

it's going too long,

it's probably going too long.

Don't have to wonder.

Nah,

they're not going to notice.

Yeah,

they will.

They're noticing.

Some are falling asleep.

Um,

I will thrive and grow

if I know what things

I'm doing

that are serving you

in the church.

Great job

is better than

saying nothing,

but not as good

as telling me

what was helpful

and how I could

improve.

And when you say

helpful,

it's,

you know,

how was God

working through

me today?

What was,

what was,

what was happening?

Um,

CJ does that

to this day.

He,

he comes up,

I mean,

he'll give the benediction,

dismiss the,

uh,

church,

and then he'll turn around

and he'll thank

everybody in the band.

It's just amazing.

And then he'll,

he'll often walk over

and just share

specific things

with people.

You know,

that last song

was just so right

and here's the reason

why it was right.

He didn't have to do that.

But man,

it sure makes,

it sure makes me know,

okay,

he's noticing,

that was helpful.

Um,

I'm happy to serve here.

That's what it does.

It just,

it,

it just tells you,

um,

it tells the,

the music leader

that they're seeing,

that they're appreciated,

they're valued,

and

when you give them

evaluation,

it tells them

how they can grow.

And again,

it's,

if we don't treat

those things

as heavy conversations,

but just as,

hey,

you know,

it'd be more helpful

if you did this.

That,

it just makes it

so much easier.

Saying nothing

for long periods of time

tempts me to think

that what I do

is unimportant,

wrong,

or unnecessary.

So there should be

an ongoing conversation.

Number three,

God intended singing

to be a means

of teaching

and admonishing.

So this is to balance

out before.

What I do

is more than a warm-up

for the sermon.

Singing's not just

a warm-up

for the sermon.

It's not just

to fill the time.

It's not just

to get people

emotionally excited.

It is a word ministry.

And you will serve me,

yourself,

the church,

and most importantly,

the Lord,

if you care as much

about the words we sing

as the words you preach.

So I want you to care

about what we're singing.

And by the way,

your favorite song

might not be the best song

for the church to sing.

And a song

that you might not

really like

might really bless

the church.

So we have these

conversations

on my pastoral team

where there'll be

certain songs

that two of my

pastor's friends

call happy clappy songs.

And that is how

they do it.

And I say,

yeah,

it always looks awkward

when you do it

like that.

But I've never seen

anybody in our

congregation do that.

They're all singing

the songs wholeheartedly.

And we joke

around a lot about it.

Number three,

God intended singing

to be a means of teaching

in a monastery.

I just did that.

Number four,

your example and engagement

when we sing

says volumes

not only about

your support of me

but about your heart

to praise God

with the church.

So when the singing's

happening,

don't be looking

at your notes

the entire time.

Don't be looking

distracted.

Don't be folding

your arms

and just kind of

checking things out.

Humanly speaking,

the pastor is the leader

of the congregational worship

and people rarely rise

above the example

of their pastor.

They can

but it's not normal.

Number five,

I need your trust

to lead effectively.

So we're partners

not competitors.

I'll lead better

if I know

I have your support.

If there are reasons

you can't trust me,

let me know.

I want your leadership

and input

but micromanaging

what I do

tends to negatively

affect my desire

to take initiative.

So this is a relationship

I have with CJ.

So I've known him

for 50 years

so there's a little bit

of trust built there.

But we'll talk

about something

and say,

well I think

it could go this way

and I say,

well I think

it could go this way

and he said,

what about this?

And he said,

well you know what,

you're the leader,

you make the decision.

That's like a,

wow really?

Yeah,

we've talked about it,

you know where I am,

I know where you are,

you know,

when you get to that moment

you make the decision.

That's huge.

You know for him to say,

I trust you with this.

So if I don't have your trust,

tell me how I can earn it.

Number six,

you don't have to be

musically trained

to help me do

what I do better.

A lot of pastors

they check out

because well I don't have

any music theory training,

I never took an instrument,

I can barely sing.

That's okay.

That doesn't mean

you can't tell me

how to pastor

a congregation

or how to communicate

effectively

or how to make

theological connections

and if something

doesn't feel right to me,

just tell me,

we'll figure out

what it is,

just tell me

in your words

and we'll get

to the bottom

of what I can do

to change

that will solve

that problem.

But don't just check out

because you say,

well I'm not musical.

I might have to work hard

to understand

what you're saying,

you might use phrases

and words

that initially sound to me

like what,

what,

hey,

but if I ask you more

I can get to the bottom

of what you're feeling

and there may be something

there for me to learn.

Number seven,

it would benefit

our relationship

and the church

if we occasionally

did things together

like go to a conference,

like read a book,

like read an article,

pray together.

I don't want to undermine you

by leading

in areas

you aren't fully convinced,

don't understand

or haven't thought about.

I want us to be

on the same page

in this.

My ministry

will be more effective

if I know

your heart

for this church,

if I know

your vision

and I need

and want

your perspectives

on topics

or areas

that are popular

in worship conversations

of the church.

So,

you know,

we're surrounded

by this world

of thoughts

and ideas

and opinions

and they're just everywhere.

Well,

I would love to know

what you think about them.

that will help me

as I make decisions.

A lot of times

these conversations

just aren't happening.

So,

if you're a musician

and your pastor

is not having them,

it would help you

and help him

to say,

hey,

let's talk about

some of these things.

Let's watch

this YouTube video.

What do you think

about that?

Let's read this article.

What do you think

about that?

And just come

to a consensus

of where the church

should be led.

Number eight,

when you encourage

and pay attention

to the band members,

you build trust.

I kind of commented

on that

with CJ's encouragement.

We thrive

in an atmosphere

of encouragement

and your words

of thanks

carry more weight

than you know.

Another thing

a pastor can do

is reference songs

that have been sung

in the meeting.

You know how

we just sang?

You know how

we just sang?

That just gives people

the awareness

that,

oh,

we're doing

the same thing here.

Like,

we're singing

these truths,

now we're just

hearing about them

from the word.

But it's the same thing.

Number ten,

if I'm a volunteer,

I may not have time

to do everything

you want me to do.

Oh,

actually,

I skipped number nine.

If I'm full-time,

I'd rather know you

as a pastor and friend

than a manager

or a supervisor

if I'm full-time.

The occasional meal,

email,

question about my life

goes a long way

towards building trust.

You can think of me

as an employee

if you like,

but Jesus is building

a church,

not a business.

And I'd love

to be a friend

to you,

a supportive friend

to you.

And if you give me

significant responsibility

in leading the church

each Sunday,

it's to your advantage

to know me well.

All right,

number ten,

if I'm a volunteer,

I may not have time

to do everything

you want me to do.

If I'm not

a full-time staff member,

you may need

to lower your expectations

in terms of what

I can actually accomplish.

I want to serve you

and the church,

so I may need help

keeping my family

a priority.

Because, you know,

some volunteers

do too much,

but other volunteers,

there's too much

expected of them.

So again,

conversations

help work that out.

How much can you

actually give?

I had a guy

email you years ago

and just say,

yeah,

I orchestrate our songs

for the church.

I just found out

my wife had cancer.

And so I'm struggling

with, like,

how can I keep

this thing going

with the church?

How can I keep

doing the orchestrations

and take care of her?

I just emailed

right back and said,

I'm not sure

I didn't say it like this,

but God couldn't care

less about your

instrumentations,

your orchestrations.

Care for your wife.

Those don't make

the meaning.

And you'd be surprised

how often we

develop these ways

of thinking

where the

lesser important things

become really

important to us.

let's always be

going back

and checking

what are the

most important things?

What are the

most important things?

So if I'm a

part-time leader,

I will need your

help in understanding

where my priorities

should be.

Number 11,

including good sound,

projection,

and lighting

in the budget

is really helpful.

Communicates your

support and serves

the church.

Things wear out,

things break,

technology improves.

we can get more

for less than

ever before,

and some issues

can only be solved

by spending money.

And that's just

a reality.

With sound,

instruments,

yeah,

that's what happens.

Challenge me if you

think my goals

are unrealistic,

but let's at least

have a conversation.

And again,

depending on the

individual circumstance,

that conversation

may look very different.

You have musicians

who never even

give a thought to it,

and then you have

musicians who want

every new latest gadget

that's out there.

And then you have

pastors.

Usually pastors aren't,

well, they just don't

want to spend a lot

of money.

That's kind of

the general category.

And so just having

that conversation,

we just went through

a thing at our church

where we had a,

there's a brother

in the Sovereign

Church in Pennsylvania

who runs a sound

company.

He had a set

of speakers

that he wasn't

able to,

he was going to

install them in a

building and they

didn't need them

after all,

couldn't get them.

So he said,

hey, can I install

them in your building

and you can just

kind of have them

there to try out.

And maybe you

could either rent

them or pay for

them eventually.

He was just kind

of vague about it.

And I said,

well, yeah, sure,

if you want to

install some new

speakers in our

building, great.

That we don't have

to be committed

to to buy,

yeah, I'm all in.

So a couple years

went by and

actually installed

one more speaker

after that.

And it turns out

he had been waiting

for a couple big

jobs to come through

and he was intending

to give them to us.

and those jobs

didn't come through.

So he emailed me

and said, hey,

you know, this is

what happened.

These jobs didn't

come through.

So could we establish

some kind of, you

know, payback plan?

And so then I brought

it to the elders.

So this would be

seven other guys

and said, hey,

this is the deal.

This is what he's

asking.

And, you know,

could we manage

some kind of,

you know, payment

per month?

And someone suggested,

hey, why don't we

just take it from,

we have a building

fund.

Why don't we just

take it from the

building fund and

give them the whole

amount and then

give them like,

you know, $3,500

extra.

And I can't tell you

how happy that email

made me feel.

It's like, wow.

And I can't tell you

how happy it made

the guy feel

when he got my

response.

Hey, we're not only

not paying you back

month to month,

we're paying you

the whole thing

and we'll give you

an extra $3,500.

But it was that

kind of leaning

forward to the

guy saying, yeah,

these are serving

us.

Yeah, this serves

the preacher,

it serves the

music, and we

want to bless this

guy.

Isn't that that

heart of the

gospel?

It's just always

giving, giving.

You know, the

Lord Jesus, for our

sake he became

poor so that we

might become

rich through

him.

Not in a

financial sense,

but in a way

that we know

that in all

things at all

times he will

provide all that

we need so that

we might be

generous to

others.

So it was just

a wonderful

recent experience.

Okay, benefits

of being a team,

and then we're

going to sing a

song, I think,

that has nothing

to do with this,

but we are going

to sing one song.

Take a quick

break and then

do a Q&A.

One, more gets

done when

you're a team.

It's just more

gets done.

Ecclesiastes 4,

9 and 10, two

are better than

one because they

have a good

reward for their

toil.

For if they

fall, the one

will lift up

his fellow, but

woe to him who

is alone when he

falls and has not

another to lift

him up.

It really is

better.

Any kind of

ministry that you're

in right now, if