The Apostolic Role for Today (Luke 6:12-19) - Podcast Episode 14

Hey, friends. Welcome to another episode of

KPC Podcast, which is just slowly becoming the name of this

thing. We're grateful to have you with

us and talking through some of the questions related to Sunday

morning and more specifically related to the passage that we

preach through toward greater application in your life.

And one of the things that we've been asking for is some

feedback. We've been asking for questions

and we've been asking for comments to be sent to questions

at KPC. Our.

Church.org. There you go.

One day I'll learn this. And we have both of those this

morning. So we received a good question

in that we're going to discuss in a little bit, and we also

received some feedback from last week's episode.

So last week's rules were a little bit reversed.

I got to sit interviewing Lindsey after she preached and

we talked around the idea of Sabbath.

One of the questions that we left you with was just describe

some of your own Sabbath practices.

Hmm. And I think in a in a hopes that

we would be able to encourage each other to practice Sabbath a

little bit more intentionally, we received some suggestions or

some comments on what's working for some folks.

So yeah, this is great. There's one family gave just

like a little mini list of some of the things that they've been

doing, which is great. They mentioned no tech Sundays,

that is. That's a hard one to keep with

kids needing computers for school.

But loosely they try to do no YouTube videos, digital

entertainment. So that's that's one thing they

do. They do Sunday walks with the

dog in an off leash area. They do visits with visits with

family, which is always great. They do Sunday evening board

game night, which is that's great.

Goes hand in hand with the no test.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's one of our

gotos. Like pull out, Uno, skip bow,

things like that, Yeah. I have Uno card remaining from

my Uno deck like it's just. Lost.

Oh no, we see. We have we have three.

I could let you borrow one. We have Mario Kart, Uno, OHS.

We have Uno all Wild, which is like all the cards are crazy,

OK, and then just regular Uno. That's chaotic.

Yeah, Yeah, that's great. And then finally upper they

supper is simple with smoothies and fresh from the oven muffins,

which I love. I love that it's like barely,

you know, you don't have to cook a crazy meal or something like

that to. Do you like that?

Yeah, I like all of those. I would love to include all of

those practices in my Sabbath practice.

Yeah. It's interesting how we've taken

a lot of those. So I would, I think I'm safe in

saying none of those were in the original iterations of the law

around Sabbath. However, all of them make sense

in terms of what like a biblical view of Sabbath would include.

And so I love that piece. Like there's intentional time

together with family. So there's cultivating good rich

relationships. They mention Sunday, so I'm like

I'm assuming churches in there. There's intentional, say, like

fasting from technology, you know, to use that language,

which is different than fasting from food, but to intentionally

go without something for the sake of something else.

And so, you know, you do see people who still observe this

observe the Sabbath. Would, you know, I think

consider in some ways technology to be work of some sort, right?

And so that's off the table. And I just think that's great.

I can go a day without your phone.

It's hard and like I also I love that.

So the smoothies and muffins, there's you've got a plan for

that. There needs to be preparation

ahead of time. You got to think it through.

It's intentional and you're trying not to cook like we're

just. We're not.

Working. It's simple.

It's exactly Yeah, I love all of those.

If you could include one of those, just try one of those.

This week. I'm gonna try the smoothie one.

That's great. Awesome.

So we got some questions for Luke Six.

Yeah, still in Luke 6. So this week we're only what

this is only our second week in look 6 right, Just preparing.

That's right. It's good.

But it's gonna get into some real intense stuff at the church

here. We're going to be doing our

community Bible study starting this week and throughout the

month of May and it will be exclusively dealing with some of

the the segments from Luke chapter 6.

Luke 6 · chapter mention

And this is sort of the the precursor.

It's sort of as you described as anti right described.

Yeah, it's sort of the the huddle.

It's the huddle with the with the, the football team, soccer

team or hockey team or whatever before, before the, you know,

they're given the game plan, but you got to gather around first,

right? And that's kind of what's

happening here. Jesus calls the disciples.

He calls the 12 particularly distinguishes between disciples

broader and apostles, who in this case was was 12, which

we'll get into that a little bit more later.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that there were only 12,

period. But so, yeah, there's a great

little game plan. And then you see this, you know,

this Kingdom moment where, you know, Jesus is just there and

people are being healed and receiving, you know, receiving

cures from impure spirits and just power, the power of the

Kingdom just flowing out all over the place, which is like

pretty cool. So got all this happening right

before these really these really meaningful teachings that Jesus

provides. And so we have this unique

little moment here. And you touched on this idea of

I of the symbolism, the the you check with the alarm bell of

like, hey, this is like this should be ringing some bells

When you hear some of this language, language of the 12

language, you know, that would hearken back to the 12 tribes of

Israel and language that would bring us back to many parts of

the Scriptures from Genesis to to beyond to the kings.

But particularly here there is this image of Moses ascending

the mountain and returning and and that that seems to be the

most poignant image that is created there.

That would be fair to say. Yeah, yeah, I think so.

I think certainly going up the mountain, whether it be it Moses

or, you know, I think certainly Moses going up the mountain to

receive the 10 commandments is probably the most significant,

one of the most significant, you know, moments in in biblical

Israel's history. Yeah.

So yeah. Yeah, so, you know, cause Jesus,

in some ways he, he is, he's ascending.

He comes back down and he's like, OK, we gotta talk.

You know, like there's, there is definitely some of that there.

So one of the questions that I had, this is not one of our, our

reader questions, but one that I thought was a, a good place to

start was, and I, I know we were kind of veering into the, you

know, speculating a little bit, but I think it's, it's a

worthwhile speculation of how would the hearers have heard

this? How would the, the early

hearers, the early readers, those who were present, you

know, let's say for the first, you know, 1st century post, you

know, post Jesus during that time, how would they have seen

these events? For those who would have

certainly had a the the the Jews would have certainly had a, a

framework for the, the symbolism.

There are a lot of when you read through the the entire Bible,

there are a lot of numbers are very important.

A lot of a lot of repeated patterns are very important.

They are. They symbolize something that's

very meaningful. And so would they have received

this as, like, deeply offensive? Would this have been scandalous?

Would this have provoked curiosity?

Would this have given them hope? Yeah.

Like I'm just trying to think through what this would have

meant to the people. So I feel like the safe answer

is just yes to. All of those, right?

Yeah, You know, I, yeah, I, I do wanna be.

On the one hand, I, I think there's a fairly straightforward

answer. And I, I think the answer is

yes. I think people would have seen

what Jesus is doing and that would have stirred in them

something. See, that's not the same thing

for everybody, right? So the crowds follow him,

obviously, like the crowd here is growing.

So not only do we have like all over Judea, we also have

Jerusalem being included here. Like the religious for, for you

know, for Israel, for Jewish followers of God like this, this

is everything happens around temple.

And so they're coming out from like the centre of the religious

universe in their understanding to see Jesus, to hear his

teaching, to be healed, to see what's happening, to see other

people being healed. Like for whatever reason, be it

curiosity or, you know, commitment, like conviction or

judgment, anger, concern, you know, you see all of it.

At least I think we see all of it not only from Judea and

Jerusalem, but now from from Tyre and Sidon as well, which

were, I believe Phoenician provinces of Rome.

And I might be wrong on that. Somebody can Fact Check me and

and let me know. But distinctly not Jewish or not

overtly Jewish areas. And so like the crowds growing

here. So I think it's fair to say in

Luke's telling of the story that people are hearing about Jesus,

and at very least they're curious.

Yeah, right. So they're going out to see him

to here to witness what's happening.

And you know, I, I think there's some deep conviction in certain

individuals. So you have the women who the

woman who reaches out and touches Jesus cloak because she

just, she wants to be healed, you know, and be it like a last

ditch effort or full faith or, you know, maybe some mixture of

both, which feels pretty human. Something's happening and people

wanna get close to to Jesus and experience it for themselves.

And then there's also individuals and groups together,

like we see the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who at

this point are like plotting. They've begun to plot against

Jesus. After seeing, I think

particularly the the healing of the paralytic and, and the

interaction about the forgiveness of sin, you know,

there there's certainly a reputation being built.

Yeah. So I think again, Luke wants to

make it very clear that that people are seeing what Jesus is

doing. And either they are intrigued,

curious, convicted, convinced, or their, you know, to some

degree plotting part of this, this religious group that, you

know, can't allow for this to happen.

It's it's, you know, it's, it's not happening that maybe it's in

their mind like the way it should or with the people who

should be involved and included, you know, why aren't we in?

There's a little bit of that going on.

So I think it's fair to say that people are seeing what Jesus is

doing and recognizing it as something significant and

powerful. And yet we also see this, you

know, in John, I think in John's Gospel, especially the way that

narrative progresses, there are these constant lines, like right

up until Jesus's death, the disciples still didn't fully

understand. They still don't fully

understand what's about to happen.

But you know, when they see Jesus post resurrection, then

they start like things start to fully click.

And in the years that follow after, you assume that I can

imagine them going, Oh, my goodness, how did we miss that?

Right. Just sitting around, remember

when what? Like that was so much more

significant than we could have seen in the moment.

So like, I think there's some of that as well going on.

That's why I say like, yes to all of it.

Yeah. I think the thing that is clear,

I think probably fairly universally agreed on, is like

Luke is making it clear here. So I think in the writing of it,

Luke wants us to see Moses. Yeah, Like that's intentional.

Whether everybody in the crowd as Jesus came down from the

mountain, we're like, this is Moses.

It's a new. Like that's a that's a stretch

to say like, yeah, definitively, yes, absolutely.

What we do know is that it's an intentional move for Luke.

He wants us to see it, and it is indicative of the time, Like the

mountain was the place of revelation from God.

And it was seen as in many ways, a place of prayer, place where

God is close, a place where God delivers messages to his people,

and a place where we go to find out what God is doing and what

we're doing and what needs to change in all of those things.

So I do think that that would have been instilled in certainly

the Jewish observers be like, this is maybe not, you know,

Messiah, Son of God, Son of man fully, God fully.

Like maybe not all of those things, but I do think they

would have been going ohhhhh, something's happening.

I, I'm just thinking this out in real time, but I also wonder if

there's a little bit of a, a kind of a political underpinning

with, you know, contextually, Moses is in the wilderness

leading, you know, leading God's people to the promised land

right now for Israel, it probably feels like they're in

the wilderness, even though they are settled in this land, but

they're under Roman occupation. And, and you have this, you

know, Moses type figure, OK, what's, what's the message he's

going to deliver from, from on high?

You know, there's, there's, there's a little bit of that,

you know, as we've seen leading up to Easter, this OK, what is,

is this going to be a political movement that this person is now

going to to bring that will speak to our current paradigm

and reality? I think that's, I think that's

good. I think that's good.

There's this line and I can't remember exactly where it is.

It's gonna bother me, but in part of the workings out of the

law, the the line is so that it may go well with you.

And, you know, I I do think people are sitting there going

like, well, things aren't going particularly well for us right

now. What's that about?

And they're. I do think there be some

expectation or longing for. Yeah, absolutely.

The whole zealot movement born out of things are not the way

they're supposed to be. We need to change them.

The only way to change them is by military force.

So way you go, right? And what's, what's kind of wild

and without, you know, getting too far into it, like when Jesus

starts teaching like these, these teachings are are very

charged, you know, even like love, love for enemies just

being one. Yeah, you know, like that the,

the the things that he then brings are probably not what

they anticipated or expected, but critical, critical teachings

for followers of Jesus. There's no way to know this but

like I I do think post sermon there would be a lot more people

disappointed than like pre sermon.

They're all riled up. They're yeah, you can imagine.

And then after they're like, are we sure Yeah, because that

sounds a lot harder than I was anticipating in not the right

ways. Right.

Like it it it does like it cuts to the core of our expectation

and even some of the language and math you like you have heard

it said. But I say to you what Jesus is

ramping this stuff up not in a legalistic make it or break it,

do it or die kind of way, but in.

A reframing a Yeah, an expansion.

Yeah. Well, and again, going with

this, this idea of, you know, like Moses coming down from the

mountain with the 10 commandments, the 10

commandments are, are, are good principles to live by.

Like, you know, generally, you know, there's a reason why

they've stood the test of time as as good, you know, like

don't, yeah, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, you know,

don't like honor your parents, right.

And and like, but in some ways they're hard to do.

Some of them. Hopefully it's not too difficult

to not murder. But like, you know, there are

there. They're not.

You can read them. Be like, yeah, I could.

I could do that. I could I could abide by those,

you know, generally speaking, but then Jesus like his

teachings. There's so much harder which

we're we're gonna unpack more in the weeks ahead.

But so we don't wanna, you know, jump too far ahead, but there is

there is some interesting, you know, parallels and then not

parallels. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely. And like we're gonna read, We're

gonna read lines like that says love your enemies, do good to

them, lend to them without expecting to be repaid.

Like we just like there's so much of what we would sort of

consider to be like quote. And if you're listening to this,

I'm doing air quotes like modern sensibilities be like, well,

surely that doesn't apply anymore.

And I go, well, yeah, you know, like, OK, well, you gotta take

some of this stuff seriously. Yeah, You know, so yeah, it's,

it's gonna get difficult in in some very real personal and

corporate ways as individuals and as the church.

But I think in some, yeah, it's just beautiful ways that have

great potential to lead toward life, so.

I'm excited. I am.

Too. It's going to be fun, especially

because some of the most intense teachings are on the weeks when

we get to discuss it with like 100 other people in the room.

And that'll be cool. That's great.

OK, so switching gears a little bit, we talked a little bit

about disciple and apostle. Hmm.

So a disciple is a follower of Jesus, is someone who is, you

know, like there were, you know, a rabbi would have many

disciples who were who were adherence to their way of life

and teaching. Yes, yeah.

And and so an apostle is a word that means like messenger sent

one and and Jesus distinguishes between the disciples and the

apostles here, the disciple, a larger group of people, apostles

in this case, 12 and he and then they we named them and you know,

yeah, you got. All the all the different, all

the different guys, some of them who they get a little bit of,

they get a little bit of a, you know, a story alongside them.

You know, like Simon, who was called the zealot Judas, not

that Judas and then Judas, yes, that Judas, you know, but it's

worth, I think, talking about that word apostle.

It's a word that in some Christian circles is reserved

for only the biblical Canon. There, there are some that would

say once, once the church was established, they would say

they're they're those were the apostles.

You're not an apostle. I'm not an apostle that's done

that the Apostolic era is over. And then on the other hand,

there is a, another group. I don't mind naming it because I

think it's, it's just worthwhile saying it's, it's so there's

the, the new Apostolic reformation and I don't want to

make it ultimately about them, but I, I think it's, it's worth

as, as a, as a launching pad to talk a little bit.

What, what actually is an apostle?

What isn't an apostle? How do we think about apostles

today? And yeah, how, how does our

understanding contrast with some of the understandings that are

out there today? That's a broad question.

I think we can narrow a little bit.

Maybe maybe I should narrow it down by saying or by asking,

when you look at say the very conservative use of or or lack

thereof of the term apostle, how do we, how do we see that?

And then how do we see maybe a perhaps overly, overly overly

liberal use of that term? I don't know.

Yeah. No, I think this is helpful

because I like I even in prepping for this sermon, we

talked a little bit on Thursday about that reality.

Just, you know, folks in our, even in our congregation very

likely having different views and understandings and history

with this type of word, right? I think there's a difference,

though, between what the church would historically say or call

an office. So the office of apostle, the

office of prophet, priest, changer.

Yeah, yeah. So there's a difference between

the office and then maybe what we would call gifts that are in

line with those like, you know, and what I would say, you know,

I wouldn't call any anybody that I know in my life.

I wouldn't name them capital P profit, right.

But I would say that there are some people in my life who are

prophetic. Yeah, but that's their like one

of their gifts is to be able to speak prophetically into peoples

lives. Now usually those are the people

who actually try to avoid naming themselves profit.

Like, you know, typically the ones who come the boldest and

quickest with a prophetic word are the ones who don't actually

have gifting in that area or who want to take on the mantle of

profit. It's the people who have a fear

and trembling that like, Oh my gosh, I, I, I think I have

something. I think, I think God has said

something to me or has, you know, that there is a

weightiness to it. And if we don't have the

weightiness to it, I've got I've got concerns.

Absolutely, yeah. So you know, I had, I had

somebody like early on in, early on in ministry, like just in

leadership in general. But early on when I was in in

ministry, somebody said, you know, just when you when you

enter into a new situation, context, organization, church,

whatever it is, go slowly and take extra precaution with, you

know, people who try to win over too much influence from you too

fast. Hmm.

And, you know, I have had interesting conversations over

the years with individuals. You know, I could look back and

say, Oh yeah, OK, alright. Yeah, like very first person

trying to gain too much info, like too much influence or too

much of an air, just too much. Yeah, authority, be it whatever

it is. So I like, I think there's a

slowed down way in which to approach the gifts that are

named in Scripture, right? So don't rush to name it for

yourself. I think that's a great place to

start #1 So office, I think the let me try a as quick an answer

as possible here. I think there are again offices

that we would consider are accomplished in and through the

person of Jesus ultimately. And so I I brought because I

knew we had a we had heads up. I had a heads up on this

question. I.

Was wondering why that was. So in our denomination, we're

Reformed. So we're Presbyterian, which is

part of the Reformed tradition. And we have in in our tradition

what are called subordinate standards and their subordinate

standards because they are lesser than their subordinate to

the Bible. So they're not inspired by God.

They're not on the same level, but they are agreed to be the

confessions creeds theologies corporately worked out that

capture a shared faith. And one of the things in the one

of the questions in the the Westminster Confession of Faith,

which is one of our subordinate standards as Presbyterian Church

in Canada is, um, question 42, which I'm going to try to not

say all the ifs and F and doth like it, it, it is.

It when was this written? Not for not not.

It's been a minute. So the question 42 is why was

our mediator? So why was Jesus called Christ?

And the answer is, our mediator was called Christ, because he

was anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, and so set

apart and fully furnished with all authority and ability to

execute the offices of prophet, priest, and king of his Church

in the estate, both of his humiliation and exaltation.

So in who he was as human and who he is as divine as God, in

his death, in his life, in his resurrection life, in and

through all that, that that Jesus has full authority and

full ability to execute offices of prophet, priest and king.

So Jesus is the ultimate once and for all prophet, priest and

king. So prophet, he speaks on behalf

of God. He is the full word, so to use

language that become for Christians a word of God.

But revelation of God, He's the fullest revelation of who God is

toward humanity. We understand in the person of

Jesus. So he is to the fullest extent

prophet speaking on behalf of God as God, he is priest.

He is the high priest, the one who with his own death and

resurrection paid for. And we don't have to get into

today another episode theories of atonement, but you know,

fulfills the role of high priest in his death and so does away

with sacrifice. And then he is king rules over

his church and the world also in here as mediator as one who who

constantly intervenes and works on our behalf toward God right.

And then it goes in and I'm not going to read all of it, but how

does Christ execute the office of profit of priest of king?

So the the the confession would say that Jesus is prophet,

priest and king. And I think the church, we would

probably agree that there are still giftings in those areas as

well that are useful to the church today.

Yeah, that are that continue to be displayed in people.

But we know, or at least we need to know and understand that that

Jesus is ultimately prophet, priest, and king.

He defines what that is and and how that rolls out in his

Kingdom. And our giftedness is

subordinate in that sense to Jesus's role in those in those

places. So we don't step into those

offices like Jesus does and it is not the same because Jesus is

who Jesus is and these apostles are are human.

But in some way, I think I have a similar understanding of

apostle that these 12 because we're dealing with Luke 6 and

not so after Judas, after Judith dies, they replaced Judas so

that there continues to be 12, which just adds weight to the to

the number. So refer often to Paul as an

apostle. Right.

So I think that which which at least initially got himself in

trouble doing it right, like it was, it was even debated within

the early church, the Jerusalem church and you know, drag Paul

in front of them and they're trying to figure out who is this

guy and is he actually an apostle?

Because this this office of apostle does seem to be linked

to these specific individuals who were literal eyewitnesses to

the accounts to the life of Jesus is teaching.

And then who Jesus anoints to bear his same message into the

world with his authority and to carry on the found really the

foundation of the church. So I don't think that anybody

steps into that same office of apostle in the same way that

these did or that Paul did, because that serve that office

served a role in a very specific moment of the church's life.

Now equally though, I don't think that the gifting of like

Apostolic giftedness or gifting that is toward apostle ship

being a messenger, if you're just kind of carve away all of

what we can create something into and just use the language,

which is what I try to do on Sunday.

I think there is something for every Christian to take away

from the language of being and becoming a messenger.

One who bears the life of the Kingdom in our bodies with us as

we go. One who has authority to speak

and to act and to do the things of the Kingdom.

And you even see that in so I would just pull up Romans 16

where Paul is referring. He's doing all these big

greetings and, and he refers to to Phoebe, who I believe we

understand as the, the, the messenger of the letter that she

came and would read the letter and, and in some ways interpret

the letter. And, and so in some ways she is,

is doing an Apostolic role there.

And then and later on it refers to Junior, who is someone who is

named as an outstanding among the apostles, right.

So, so there there is. There's something kind of cool

about. I just wanted to name two women,

especially because I don't think, you know, some people

will say, well, it's just there were 12 men and that that was,

it was like, actually, no, there, there were some Apostolic

figures who were women, right? Right, so we need 12 elders to

continue to rule the church and they can only be men.

And away we go. Which is a completely different

topic for another. Day for sure, but I just

thought, you know, like it's the yeah, the the office of like the

Apostolic nature of of God's people should not ever end

right. You know, and then in in

Ephesians 4, Paul like kind of lists what we call like apest

the apostle, the the profits. That's what I pulled up.

Yeah, go ahead. Now these are the gifts Christ

gave to the church, yes, right. So that would seem to indicate

some level of those giftings still continue, right?

The apostles, prophets, evangelists, the pastors and the

teachers there. And this is what people think.

This is what people need to hear as well.

Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and

build up the church, the body of Christ.

This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith

and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord,

measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

Yeah. So there's like there's a

continuation there that I don't think we've attained.

Definitely right. And but I also think like

listen, like there's there's, like you said, use your word,

which is a great word. There's weightiness to it.

Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work.

And that's where I think we, this is where I land harder on,

uh, yeah. You know, embracing the call of

the apostles to be witnesses, to be messengers to, to carry it in

our bodies, to live it out day-to-day.

Because I think we can guess, guess Christians.

We can often get caught up in the benefits of Christ without

bearing the full weight of responsibility of Christ, which

like New Begin works out. So I brought another book

because. I thought they were decoration.

Yeah, no, they're not just. They're not just props.

New begins. Got this and I'm gonna have to

find it. Yeah.

So. OK, so he's got this great way

of talking and writing. So he says, uh, to see.

So what he would call Christians are chosen bearers of like the

promised blessing. Hmm.

And so he says bearers, not exclusive beneficiaries, right.

So we there's a responsibility to go and do the things of the

Kingdom, not just to benefit from the things of the Kingdom.

And we like we can. I mean, I just think, and maybe

this is like, maybe me, like I was just like, can I just soak

up the benefits for a minute? Like, right there is there is

benefit to living inside the Kingdom.

Like, let's not say there isn't there is.

There ought to be like it is a new way of living that is life

giving to toward flourishing might not look exactly like what

want or expect, but there's a benefit to knowing Jesus.

We can kind of sit in it though and be like, oh great, I made

it. I'm here.

I'm gonna enjoy these benefits. And that's where he says no, you

bear the Kingdom. You don't benefit from the

Kingdom. What you do, you do benefit.

You also bear it. Toward other application with

that word bear is that it? It is.

It's a burden in some way. It's like that.

There is a like, yeah, there, there there should be a, a

burden to someone who who is, who has received a word from the

Lord. Same with same with someone with

Apostolic gifting. That there should be a a

weightiness and a burden that is theirs to bear.

There's a weightiness and you and I know this there and we've

talked about it. There's a weightiness to

preaching. Yes, right there.

And that's not that's not to say that we don't enjoy it.

Like, I love what I get to do and I absolutely love preaching,

but there is a weight to it that's hard to describe in the

same way. And it's not, it's not the same

like, in the same way that I like, I don't know, the weight

of, let's say, like a paramedic who walks into a situation be

like, am I going to have to say, am I going to literally, am I

going to have to save somebody's life today?

Yeah, like a firefighter, right. Am I gonna have to pull somebody

out of a burning? But there is a way to do that

that I have no idea of. There's a witness to these

things. So Newbigin continues, and this

is the open secret, which is his introduction to theology of

mission. And Nubian, I think, is

brilliant in helping the church understand healthy mission.

Like in our own backyard, yeah. And he lived it out.

He. Absolutely.

So that he wasn't just a thinker, he was a he was a doer.

And then wrote about. It missionary in India, part of

the monumental movement like Church of India that really

almost made, I don't know, maybe single handedly redefined what

it meant to be ecumenical in some really cool ways.

So he writes there and he's talking here about Israel being

elected and they're being a burden to that and his where

he's going to go. So the the the church Christians

being elected requires the like, there's a burden there, right?

So he says there lay the constant temptation again and

again. It had to be said that election

is for responsibility, not privilege.

Hmm. Again and again.

And and so like I said, you talk about, he says unfaithful Israel

had to be threatened with punishment because it was the

elect of God. And then he quotes from Amos,

you only have I known of all the families of the earth.

Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities.

So he says the meaning of Israel's election and of its

misunderstanding of it is depicted with the supreme

dramatic power in the story of Jonah.

And then he goes on to talk about how Jonah called the go to

Ninevah. He's like, absolutely not.

I'm going to go in the exact. And it's almost like it is.

It's poetic comedy, like I'm going to go in the exact

opposite direction and I'm going to flee as far as I possibly can

to a ridiculous degree. And, and yeah, so he ends up on

this ship and there's a massive storm.

He's hiding in the in the boat and the Pagan sailors are

praying to God for deliverance. Even in his rebellion.

He's he's he's, he's fulfilling his calling to be a witness to

who God like, to who the true God is.

And, and you know his anyways, the story unfolds.

The the city repents and then he gets mad about it exactly like

and, and there's but there is something about there that that

is, you know, it is, it is revealing of, of what has

happened in, you know, Israel's heart in that, you know, their

original call, their original call as a as a chosen people

were to be a blessing to the nations.

And so like my, my, one of my deepest hearts for our church

community, for all church communities really, but you

know, for us pastors here, like in our city, is that we would

fully embrace that same weighty election toward responsibility,

toward hard work for the sake of the other.

Because, you know, as cliche as it is, like good people die

every day without knowing Jesus, and also good people die every

day hungry, and good people die every day on the streets

houseless. And people are wrestling with

brokenness inside their homes. And we carry the weight of the

Kingdom in a way that is meant to push against those dark

places. So that's one of the things I

love, and I hope this came across like I do love this about

our church. I think that there's beauty in

sharing communion together, and I think there's beauty in

digging in the dirt on Saturday together like, you know, a bunch

of people were doing. We did, yeah, both those things

this past weekend, which is which is kind of great.

Right. But I think that in some ways

captures what we're, what we ought to be about.

So when we just returning back to that word apostle because

we've been talking around a little bit, but yeah, how do we

think about there there are some there are some streams that

would use that word as a as a title in the same way that, you

know, people might call you Pastor Grant or myself, Pastor

Justin, they would say I am Apostle Grant or Apostle Justin.

I'll never do that. Is that a clear enough answer?

Yeah, it's very clear. But, you know, more broadly is

that, you know, maybe just to be contrarian, if if you can, if

you can go read Ephesians 4 and see that there's an offer Office

of pastor. Yeah, could there not be a, a

category for, for saying some, you know, someone is more

pastoral, someone is more of a teacher, someone's more

Apostolic, someone's more of a profit.

So therefore, we're going to call them by their, by their,

their, their title. Primary gift.

Yeah, right. So here's my here's my $0.02

worth of, I don't know, 1 cent. My, my sense of it is I, I,

there is something in me that that pushes against it.

But equally, like, you know, I've, I've had good friends and

shared leading services over the years with Catholic priests who

love Jesus and who are doing incredible things.

And yeah, had was able to share in leading services together

while I was working as a chaplain in a psychiatric

hospital with a Catholic priest there.

You know who like I'm, I'm not saying, well, Jesus is the only

priest, you can't be priest. Hmm.

And equally I would say, well, like Peter talks about the

priesthood of all believers. So there's still that language

exists. And yet I would firmly say no,

Jesus is the fulfillment of that office of of priest.

Yeah. So, you know, I think there's

there's room there. My for me, the main, the main

thing is recognizing also, and it is maybe important to name

that. I think we see, we see this in

churches and cultures that I don't come from, you know, say

that for me, right, more predominantly in other countries

than Canada and in different cultures that I don't walk in

and, and understand. So I want to be careful with

that as well. And that's a good word, just

naming that. Yeah, I think though, if

somebody, if somebody is ordained a pastor by a body of

Christians, then that's something I'm gonna carry with

weight and I'm gonna respect with weight and sit with it.

Doesn't mean we're gonna agree on everything.

Absolutely not. Doesn't mean that we're not

gonna like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna just receive

absolutely everything you have to say necessarily.

But if, if a if a group of Christians have together

discerned in prayer and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to

lay like a a title or a mantle on somebody to call somebody to

use like our language to call somebody into that office that

role, then I think that's something we just have to carry

with with care and concern like just move carefully in it.

If it's something that a title that somebody takes on in and of

themselves, I'd be willing to say that.

I think that is just a problematic way to start.

Yes. OK.

So I think there's nuance there. Like I didn't ordain myself

pastor and I didn't call myself pastor until I was ordained.

And actually for me, like I don't, I don't go by reverend

because I actually think there's more weight to pastor.

Yes, I I feel it, at least for myself.

Yeah, Reverend is a cultural meal much more like, much, much

more recent term within the Church and has much more to do

with power and authority than it does or ought to service and

weightiness to ministry. So that's why for me, But I I

try to as much as possible, I I go by Pastor Grant.

I think that makes more sense to people who don't have a sweet

clue, like walk into a church for the first time.

You're like, OK, like I what's going to make the most sense?

But actually personally I feel more weight to.

That I only ever use Reverend if I'm writing like official

communique, like as a reference letter for like the government

because it's it's a title that they understand.

Right. And so versus pastor, which is

can be more nebulous, yeah, but. Yeah, agreed, 100% agree.

And I do the same thing just like, you know, wear clerical

collar when I walk into sick kids.

Yeah, because it is helpful, right.

Like I'm here to serve and with some urgency.

So can we help one another? Fine.

We're trying to go, but I think it's worth, I think it's worth

saying like you and I were both were both ordained by groups of

Christians, by congregations, by denominations.

Like that is an important part of how we got to where we are is

that there were other people calling that out of us and

naming it and affirming it and then ultimately ordaining, yes.

And that I think continues to be a really important measure for

individuals of, of what I think is or can be.

So not we're not always right, not always like we don't know,

you know, but what is a healthy approach to these offices and

titles? And so to sort of cap, cap this

discussion, you know, when we look at some of these different

roles that Christians may or may, you know, may have

strengthened, may have lesser strengthen.

I think it's, I think it's fair to say, and this is I attribute

a little to this to some of the like church futurist thinkers,

guys like Alan Hirsch, who have done a lot of thinking about

this. Where, where they would, they

would say the Apostolic gifts that they describe in Ephesians

4, that is Jesus similar to prophet, priest, king Jesus is

the perfect embodiment of all of those.

And that as we become more Christ like, we should grow in

all those That as we are even just to go through them, as we

are growing in Christ likeness, we will feel a greater urge

toward being messengers of God's Kingdom.

That as we are growing in Christ that we will be more attuned to

who God is and what God might be saying in a circumstance.

As we grow in Christ, we will become more willing to share of

our faith with those around us. Evangelist, as we grow in our

faith, we will shepherd people better.

We will be better lovers of people that we will care better

for people as we, we will also become better pastors, teachers,

all these things, right? That we could all grow in these.

And yet I would still probably reserve a little bit of, you

know, thought that our, you know, some of our bent, some of

our, our, you know, some of our just perhaps even God-given

bents are going to be that we're going to be better at some of

those, you know, in this lifetime.

You know, like I can think of people I know that they wouldn't

call themselves apostle, but that they would, I would look at

that and I would look at them and say they have just like an

Apostolic spirit about them where they're just willing to go

where God calls them to go. They'll just get up and leave.

And I'm like, that's amazing. We need people like that in the

church. Yep.

Yeah. So I think the just to to double

down on what you've said, the main thing that we want people

doing is striving to be more like Jesus.

Yes. And in our attempts to be more

like Jesus, gifts are going to be given, right?

Anointing will happen. The Holy Spirit's gonna empower

you to do some pretty cool things, maybe some scary things,

maybe some things that you never would have found yourself doing.

But it's not because you're striving for a position is

because you are trying to be more like Jesus.

Make that, make that the goal, yeah.

Absolutely. That's good.

That feels like a pretty good place to close out.

It's. A wrap up.

Yeah, one of the lingering questions that I have that I

think we might tackle just to give a little bit of a taste of

over the next 4 weeks while we're doing the community Bible

study. One of the questions that I have

lingering from this kind of opening is, is this the same

sermon as the Sermon on the Mount, like Luke's version of

the Sermon on the Mount? We're gonna solve it.

Yeah, exactly. We're gonna crack.

It or is it different a different time, 2 sermons spoke

in different places, same place, all of it.

Some of those technical pieces that you never answer in a

sermon because you're like, this is not.

The time or place matter, but it nags at you a little.

Bit but it just goes like, Oh yeah, where are the places?

So I'm looking forward to it. I think it's gonna be fun and we

hope that this is encouraging to you.

Please, especially over these next 4 weeks, we're hoping that

more of you are are are listening to this podcast, not

because we want just more listen like views, whatever, but

because we think that between the sermon and the Bible study

and the podcast together. We're gonna cover a lot of

ground. Yeah, the goal is not to just

repeat all the things, but to have each of those different

places and spaces and modalities be a different angle on these

texts. So we hope you're along for the

ride and send us your questions as we go, even if you want to

look ahead and read some of these passages through Luke 6,

where we're going to be hanging through the community Bible

study through this month. Send us your questions in

advance if you'd like as well. But we hope that it's

encouraging for your day today, wherever it finds you, and we

will see you in the next episode.