Life in the Kingdom is Life with Jesus (Luke 6:43-49) - Podcast Episode 18

Hey friends, welcome to another episode of our podcast.

Thank you for tuning in. We are wrapping up Luke 6 today.

So on Sunday preached through the final verses of Luke chapter

Luke 6 · chapter mention

6, which are the sermon on the plane, the wrap up to the sermon

on the plane. This was also the wrap up to our

community Bible study. So month long for Wednesdays of

people gathering to study the Bible, which is just such a on

the one hand, such a simple thing to do, but so profound.

Like it was an awesome month. The table leaders did fantastic

job. The teaching team did a

fantastic job all the way through.

I loved getting to see this for the first time.

It was a lot of fun and, and just, I, I feel like the, the

flow of these particular passages as well.

There's so much going on with them that it, it lent itself to

just really robust discussion. And, and I'm, yeah, I, I

couldn't, I couldn't be happier. And, and it was just, it was a

lot of fun and, and so glad we were able to do that for, for

the sermon on the plane. Yeah.

It was great. I the thing that I found, I

don't know if you found this the week that you preached during

this, the series or during the, the study was we had like we had

all, all of the, so I sat in on some of the teaching teams, some

of the team, not all of the teaching team prep, but some of

that. And then I had all of my own

personal research and study and prayer and time and reading,

etcetera, all of the things. And then we had the Wednesday

Bible study and then I preached on Sunday and I'm like, there's

still things there's still stuff to cover and ways in which the

like he was new every time. And I love that about the way

Scripture works and the way God uses it is, it is the reason why

we say it is alive and active and speaking and continues, not

because of like, you know, every time you read it, maybe you're

going to glean something new yourself from it.

But because actually, like this is the work that the Holy Spirit

does is unveiling these deep, meaningful, important pieces of

truth that like, you can read it over and over and over again and

still come back to it fresh. And yeah, that that was my

experience of the study anyways, was.

Mine as well. Yeah, yeah.

I was worried I was gonna get to Sunday and be like, well, I have

nothing left to say, which was not the case, especially this

past Sunday when I went too long.

Well, but, and you're getting, you're getting different angles

because you're, you're getting like what, what is, what is your

average congregant kind of wrestling through with the

passage? What are they confused about?

What are, what are we confused about?

Because if we're confused about it, they're certainly going to

be confused about it. Or maybe just glaze over, you

know, and, and you know, it feels like by the end of the

whole process, we're able to, to capture some, but still not all

like. And that's, again, it's, it's

remarkable just the way that that God's word works in that

way. And, and it's a, it's a, it's so

powerful. And, and it was, yeah, it was a

real privilege to be a part of so.

Yeah. So thanks for jumping in on it.

And if you didn't, there will be another chance in the future to

do so. But for now, Luke 6, like I

said, so we're wrapping up. We've got 2.

We put them together, you know, but two mostly related somewhat

different takes on on Jesus wrap up to this sermon.

This is a tree and its fruit. This is house and foundation

fruit being good or bad, houses being hit by storms.

I added in a couple other examples of trees and fruits and

maybe confused the waters by the end.

Did you water your grapefruit? I think it's still in the

sanctuary. I think I accidentally left it

there. Oh.

No. Yeah, it needs some help, but I

had this plant. So I had an aloe plant.

This is the only plant that I should that I should ever

purchase, right? Is like desert plants.

So I had an aloe plant at the beginning of the pandemic that

was in my office. And with how the pandemic hit, I

ended up just making a, a Home Office that I used for both work

meeting with people over Zoom and also recording for Sunday

services and things like that. And in my mind, I just thought,

you know, everybody else's home. So I like people will I don't

want to perpetuate the feeling necessarily of loss.

Like if I'm like, why do I get to be in the church?

They wanna be there, I'm there, they can't be there.

So I'll record from home. And then we're all on an even

playing field kind of thing. But where I'm going with this

story is I left that aloe plant in my office.

For months. No, the entirety of the pandemic

went back like it was like it was there a year and I went back

and that thing was live in its life.

It it was not healthy, but it was not dead.

Secretly your wife was like going in and like somebody must

have been watering it like. This poor plant.

Yeah, I wish I knew that. I wish I knew that.

But no, I think it just did it to desert thing and sucked air

out of water out of the air. But no, my grapefruit tree is

probably probably not going to do that.

So maybe maybe that's let's read.

It's not, it's not a super long. I think it's helpful.

Just as a refresher, what translation do you have there?

This week I'm reading from the ESV, right?

So which is? Not usually the translation that

I use. Yeah, and be curious if you

could explain a little bit of the one word in particular that

I'm interested in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I have had the ESV and NIV pulled up here, but I'll start

if you want to read the final section.

So. So this is from Luke 6, starting

at verse 43. For no good tree bears bad

fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree

is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from

thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a Bramble Bush.

The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces

good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil.

For out of the abundance of the heart, his mouth speaks.

Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I tell you?

Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I

will show you what he is like. He is like a man building a

house who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock, and when

a flood arose, the stream broke against that house and could not

shake it because it had been well built.

But the one who hears and does not do them is like a man who

built the house on the ground without a foundation.

When the stream broke against it immediately fell, and the ruin

of that house was great. Not in a good way.

Grades. Not in a good way, no.

I think literally it says and great was its ruin, which is

just, you know, very dramatic. It is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So maybe maybe this won't take long at least maybe not is I am

curious like you, you chose the NIV or sorry the ESV versus the

NIV which we typically will preach from and and you said it

was really centred around a particular word.

So what was that for you? Yeah, for sure.

So, you know, like, I think it's worth saying that, you know, we

were talking about this a little bit off camera, but like one of

one of my, you know, one of my hang ups with the SUV.

I think in in many ways it's it's very literal translation

which may. Can be good.

Yeah, I like it for preaching for that reason.

It's clunky to read. Clunky.

So if you're looking for a readable translation, I don't

think this is it. Like the NIV reads better, the

NLT reads better. Both translations that I have

and will continue to preach from, I read, have always

through my entire life, read most from the NIV and then I'll

switch for a reason or a purpose, and then I find myself

going back to the NIV. So whether that's just habit and

that's what I'm used to and what I'm comfortable with, that's to

be discussed. But certainly this is not the

the the best readers version. What I would say the one word,

though, that I really wanted to, um, yeah, be it hammer home or

be crystal clear on is where Jesus says out of the treasure

of a person's heart. Good treasure.

Evil treasure. Uh huh.

Yeah. So so in verse 45, the good

person out of the good treasure of their heart produces good.

And you have the NIV up there. So can you read that verse?

There, so it says, a good man brings good things out of the

good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings out brings

evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.

So right off the hop, obviously we're not talking about men

exclusively here. This is gendered language, but

it's it's referring to all of humanity.

So that's one. But mainly the difference that I

wanted to tease out is exactly what's lacking in the NIV.

So the the good stored up in his heart and this language around

treasure which is again like this is literal translation

thesaurus treasury. It does mean storehouse so I get

why they go stored up but. It's inference rather than.

Yeah, yeah. What's a more literal

translation for For me, the main point that I was making at this

moment in the sermon was the difference between just

thinking, oh, if I input enough good into my life, then good

will flow out. And like, that might be true to

some degree. Like you are the what you

consume in forms, shapes, and does ultimately control even who

you are and who you become and what you output.

There is truth to that. But that's not what Jesus is

saying here. He's not saying do enough good,

or, you know, be around enough good or input enough good so

that you can then do good or be good or become good.

Yes. He's not creating this structure

whereby we input what we need so that we can output what is good.

We input what is bad and therefore we output what is bad.

What he's saying is what you treasure in your heart.

And on Wednesday, on Sunday a little bit, I talked about that

the heart in Jesus Day is not just like the thump, thump organ

in your chest. This is your like the core of

all of how you make decisions. It is your being.

Your will centred, your will. Yeah, your will, your.

Desires, your thoughts, your emotions, your feelings, all of

it is is described as heart. So Jesus is saying here what

your heart treasures will determine how you live your life

that output and. We which makes it a little less

about like Doo Doo Doo. Exactly.

Right, because it, it's saying like, hey, whatever, whatever,

you know, like I and I do like the, the, the word abundance

there for, for out of the abundance of the heart, the over

whatever spills out of your heart, the treasure there, it'll

be good or evil because it's what your heart is, is full of,

because of what you filled it with.

In some ways, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And the, yeah, the piece that I really wanted to avoid was just

somebody walking away thinking, OK, if I if I store up enough

good, hmm, then I will be good. You know, it's this isn't.

Yeah, I don't know. You know those old, old school

video games where you're like top down looking like we all

played them instead of like doing computer like typing

classes and stuff where you're just like you mine for stuff.

Then you can build this and then you can build that and then you

sell this and the money and like my world conquers your world.

What was that? You know that doesn't.

Matter command and. That's the one I'm thinking of.

I think it's like is this isn't like a matter of of going around

collecting enough good, hmm and hiding it away so that you can,

you know, eventually have enough good to buy your way into the

Kingdom kinda. And like that's a really simple,

you know, reading of it. It's also very specific reading

of it, but I just in my preaching, I wanted to lean us

as far away from that as possible.

Yeah. And also capture what I think

isn't just. So what this is also not is an

ascent of knowledge, right? It's not just intellectual

ascent toward goodness. It's not if I, you know, if I

think good thoughts, if I learn what is right and true and good

and noble and lovely, then I will become that is right and

true and good and noble and lovely.

Like I think if, if our denomination actually, so, you

know, we're part of the Presbyterian Church in Canada.

We say like we're small P We have people from all over the

Christian world and we have people coming in who have no

Christian experience. So fantastic.

That's the way it should be. But, you know, I think if there

is a cultural sin, if I could put it that way, of our

denomination historically, it's like an intellectual, spiritual,

intellectual arrogance. Yeah.

That says to know something is to be transformed by it.

And we just, we know, we by experience that to know

something in your head does not mean that it's gotten into your

heart. And to know it and to know that

it's right and good and true is not also to treasure it right.

To treasure it is to pursue it, is to desire it is to allow it

to shape your wants and your desires and your feelings, your

emotions, the core centre of who you are, and to want for it

above other things. It is is treasuring life inside

the Kingdom and Jesus and his love and who he is and who he's

making you to be. And that's far more compelling

to me than know the right thing, become the right person.

And like not knowledge can be powerful.

Knowledge is is good. It's not, it's not dismissing

that, but it is it is an incomplete picture of what Jesus

is inviting us into here. And and you, you cannot attain,

in some ways I think Jesus would be saying here, you cannot

attain the good life on that alone.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, nor, nor is that gonna be

the starting point for everybody.

Hmm. Right.

So I, I worked at a camp for a number of years and the camp

doesn't matter, but they had a slogan and the desire for all

the staff. I think it was, it was something

like knowing, being, doing. And this idea was like, you

know, and then you be and then you do.

And I go for so many of us, that's backwards.

Hmm, right. I need to do my way into knowing

sometimes. Most times, in fact.

Yeah. Right, we just to know something

does not necessarily mean that you will become something does

not necessarily mean that you will do something.

It might for some people be that that order.

So Jesus isn't saying know something first, because what

does he say? He says come follow me, come be

with me and watch. And in the being with in the in

the doing, in fact, the disciples begin to know and

discover who Jesus is. And they're called into greater

doing and greater being, greater becoming.

They change isn't shapes who they are.

But that first call is not hey, sit down and let me tell you who

I am, and then you'll want to follow me.

And in fact, he seems to avoid that quite often.

Jesus, you know, he's, he's very, very conservative in his,

you know, in his revealing of, of all the specifics and details

of who he is and, and why God the Father has him doing what

he's doing. And, and so I think that's a

good, that, that's a good way to think about that is that Jesus

doesn't come in and just unload a bunch of information like, you

know, which is, you know, I think a good, a good seminary

experience for a pastor should not just be unloading a bunch of

information. It there should be a a spiritual

formation components to it. There should be a hey, if you,

if you can learn all of this information and still be a

rotten bastard, you know, like. Well, and, and listen, like I, I

know people who came out of seminary with no faith, right?

So, so technically knew all of the things and walked away with

less, less of a life giving alive faith in Jesus than when

they started. And that's a, that's a, you

know, that's a sad thing for for me to reflect on now.

So, yeah. So, OK, so just to answer your

question, to loop back around ESV for this week, largely

because I could have done the work to get us from Storehouse

to treasure. But I do find that sometimes

that works and sometimes that's interesting and you can take

people along for that ride. And sometimes I just wanna get

there. Yep, faster.

That makes. And if I can use a different

translation to do that, then I'll do that.

Yeah, but that was the main reason.

We were talking about one day we'll do a little bit of a, you

know, separate podcast about topics like Bible translations

and, and that could be a lot of fun.

Cause even, you know, when we look at our community Bible

study, we used the NRSV for that and, and our, and the new

Revised standard version that's safer.

Yeah. Is that's considered like the

classic inductive Bible study. That's what you use when you do

that kind of work. It's it's It's considered the

academic English translation. So if you're not working in

Greek or Hebrew, the expectation in many academic settings is

that you use NRSV. So much so can I like personal

grape here for a second and I've told you this story.

I think when I was in undergrad I lost, I think it was like a

full letter grade on a paper because I used the NIV and not

the NRS. File.

Unbelievable. Yeah.

Not the content of the paper. This was like theology class and

you know my profits. Like you should have known that

the NIV is not an academic translation and RSV is the only

acceptable academic translation. I was like, well you're the Prof

dude. So if I didn't know something, I

didn't say that I was not, I was not that bold in undergrad.

But yeah, I still, I still Remember, Remember that just to

to this day, this was a this is a, this is a brilliant, loving

and and also very specific theology professor who I had

during my undergrad who had made the migration, I think he had

made the migration from evangelical all the way to

Catholic. Oh, wow.

OK. Yeah.

It was kind of his faith. So really fascinating deep

spiritual journey. And so, you know, those are

people who you just. Yeah.

OK, I'll listen and figure it out.

I'll do better next time. But it would be a lot of fun to

kind of talk through like, why is that the case?

And does that mean these particular, these other

translations are, are lesser, you know, and if you open up, if

you ever use like the Bible app, like on your phone or tablet or

whatever, when you pull it up here, I could, you know, I

could, we'd be here for an hour trying to count all these like,

it's wild, right? And so like, what's what's going

on there? Be fun to explore that and, and,

and talk through, you know, you know, even just simply to say

like sometimes it's just different tools in the belt,

right, That there are strengths and weaknesses to to certain

translations, because translating from Greek and

Hebrew and Aramaic is difficult. Yep.

Yeah, yeah, and absolutely. So I think a tool tool and a

tool belt is exactly the reason why I flipped this week and

we'll see where I go for next Sunday.

I think we're we're back in NIV next Sunday, so.

Great. All right, so why don't we talk

a little bit about this latter section on on this, this little

parable, this little metaphor that Jesus uses of Jesus sort of

summarizing his teachings. Everyone who hears my words and

does them. So everyone who I want to start,

I missed the first step. Everyone who comes to me, here's

my words and does them. I will show you what he's like.

He is like a man building a house who dug deep and laid the

foundation on the rock. I think there's some questions

that that are worth asking about the like The Who and the what

of, of the metaphor, right? Because it can be a little

unclear sometimes, you know, and, and so when we look at the

foundation, the foundation is, is what everything else is built

upon, right? So it is, it is crucial and it

is the reason why this house, when the floods arise, do does

not get swept away and why the other house does get swept away.

So what is precisely the foundation?

Yeah. So there, there's, there's I

think there's probably a couple different ways of, of reading

this or understanding it. I think the easy so like the

Sunday school answer is like, well, Jesus is the foundation.

Yeah. But if we look, there's, there's

a couple different comparisons that I think are are worth

pointing out there a couple of differences in the comparison.

So in 48 he is like a man building a house who dug deep

and laid the foundation on the rock.

OK. And then if we jump down in 40,

the latter part of 49, like a man who built a house on the

ground without a foundation. Hmm.

So there's multiple things happening.

Hmm. So there's no foundation and

there's so there's a found in the in the good house or what

we're assuming at this point, good house, right?

The Wise builder in In other iterations of this story, the

wise builder builds. There's a foundation on a rock

and the person, the second person is, there's no foundation

and it's not on the rock, it's on the ground.

So there's multiple differences, yeah.

So, uh, you know, I think in, in part we can, we can extend that

and think through Jesus elsewhere is called cornerstone,

the cornerstone that referred to as the cornerstone in the New

Testament. And so is, is Jesus the

cornerstone of the foundation? Is he the rock?

Is he the foundation? I think for my just the simple

reading of this is, you know, I I think of Jesus life inside the

Kingdom because we haven't gone deep down this.

It's not a rabbit trail, but this direction.

Yet you can't talk about Jesus without talking about the

Kingdom of God, and you can't talk about the Kingdom of God

without talking about Jesus. So much so that it's not really

even correct to talk about Jesus and the Kingdom.

Jesus is the Kingdom. Right.

Yeah, they're inseparable. Jesus, like his arrival is the

kingdom's arrival, His teaching is the Kingdom, his death, his

resurrection. This is the Kingdom of God

breaking into the world. So to say, you know, Jesus and

Kingdom as separate is to miss a lot of what's going on.

So I think you know the rock Jesus, Kingdom of God, this is

to have their foundation rooted or resting where it ought to

rest. A foundation ought to rest on

the rock. I mean, I understand that you

can dig down past the frost line, pour concrete, make our

own rocks. Like understand that much like

my deck that I built an extension on my deck and like

every day for a few days after I was like, I just went out with

my big 6 foot level and I was like, is it sunk yet?

Like did I go deep enough and is it solid?

So I think rock is Jesus, its Kingdom.

It is the right place for a foundation and the right place

for a foundation we believe is is is squarely Kingdom of God,

Jesus, the builders building a foundation.

So Jesus can't be the foundation like the builder places the

foundation. I know all metaphors fall apart

at some point and fail, but I think Jesus has already

described what the foundation is.

Then if we back up, so everyone who comes to me, everyone who

hears my words, everyone who does them.

So just like it's, you know, just like we can't talk about

Jesus as separate from the Kingdom or the the Kingdom as

existing without Jesus separate from Jesus, the foundation here

can't be, well, it's just good works, right?

It's just doing the things that Jesus says.

You've heard all. Now go and do and and.

That's And that's your foundation?

Yeah. No, the foundation is first

coming to Jesus. Abiding.

Abiding, being with Jesus, allowing him to transform who

you are. Right.

Hearing the words of Jesus again.

Hear the the. I think the language points us

in a different direction than simply like, oh, I heard what

you said. No, this is deep.

Listening, absorbing. I've heard.

OK, I hear you. Yeah, I hear you.

Yeah, I'm gonna. Change.

I was hearing you before, now I hear you.

Like there's a different layer. Yeah, yeah.

So come to Jesus, abide, rest, be with Jesus, hear him, really

hear him, Allow his words, allow his teaching, allow who he is to

transform your heart and your mind.

Your the the core of who you are, all of it and then live out

of the overflow of who that who you are becoming right of of

that that relationship. So that's the foundation and

that's the foundation being placed on a rock on Jesus

squarely inside the Kingdom. So again, like I said, all

metaphors fall apart and you can stretch this one, I'm sure, to

breaking. But I think really what Jesus is

saying is it's the it's the he's reminding the disciples of that

first call. Come follow me and I will teach

you to fish for people, right? Come follow me.

I'm not gonna make you a tax collector of people, but like,

come follow me, learn from me. Watch.

How so? Eugene Peterson's translation of

that, the passage in Matthew where Jesus has come to me.

All you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.

Eugene Peterson translates that. Hey, if you're tired, if you're

worn out, burned out on religion, come to me.

Get away with me. He says, Watch how I do it.

I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you.

Learn the unforced rhythms of grace and you will learn to live

freely and lightly. So that's that's the invitation

of Jesus. Come get away with me.

Watch how I do it. You're going to learn to live

like me. You're going to learn to live

freely and lightly. He's I'm not gonna lay anything

heavy or ill fitting. But there will be things for you

to do. There will be life for you to

live. Yeah, but it will fit.

It will be well fitting. Like hand in glove.

Like a baseball glove that's been well worn, soaked in hot

water and then tied around a baseball overnight and used for

a couple of years. Like is that what you do is?

Yeah, that's how you do it, you know, Yeah.

You soak in hot water, you put it around like a softball or

something a bit bigger and then tie it up real tight.

And then, Yep, back when you had like 4 poster beds with like the

ball on the top that you put tie it around the the, the bedpost

in. So it's cool.

Use that yeah, but this is the invitation of Jesus is to to

life lived. That is well fitting and I think

that's really when you start OK, what is rock with his

foundation? Where do they meet?

What is like, how do you just put that?

That's what Jesus is talking about here is that invitation.

So I could imagine that there are different, you know, folks

at different places in their spiritual formation, some who,

for better or worse, they, they just, they just wanna do, they

just like, maybe maybe that's their best.

They just like to serve. They just like to, you know,

whether it's in their church or whether it's, you know, they can

very clearly see these are the actionable things that Jesus has

called me to do. I can do that.

I've got money, I can give, I've got, I've got time, I can, I can

serve, I can do all these different things.

And that's what Jesus calls me to do.

Like so you got someone who's who's more in that, but they

really are wrestling with with sort of the abiding piece of it

to just be with Jesus, to hear Jesus right.

And then you have others who are maybe a little bit on this.

They're more like, they're a little bit more contemplative.

They they like to, you know, they like to journal, they like

to write, but they struggle on the action piece.

How do we and I, I don't always like the word balance because

it's it's it balances A myth. And also sometimes it's balance

isn't the thing that we're, that we want here, but how do we, how

do we maybe correct? Cause I highly doubt any of us

are, are like perfectly aligned in all these areas like that,

that I, I highly doubt that, that there's anyone in our

church who have found the, the perfect regimen of, of abiding,

listening, being and doing right.

So how do we, how do we think about that?

How do we approach that? Uh, yeah.

This, this, I think this is a, I think if we could solve this

question, you could maybe package it.

And anyways, I, so I think, I think there are two angles of

approach here. The first is just to say that

each of us is going to have a bent toward one or the other,

right? Like.

Like Mary and Martha with Jesus. Absolutely right.

Yeah. So, so to think about it and

you're not suggesting this, I know you're not suggesting this.

To think about it though as purely an individual pursuit

would be, I think to fail right off the hop.

So we just need to realize like the Christian life is a life of

and in community. Yeah, so you need to find your

place into a community. And there are like we got, we

got guys who come on Thursday and they, there's a shop,

there's a workshop in this building.

They're like there's a table saw, there's a drill press.

Yeah, shouldn't give away all these secrets, but we have guys

who come and they are building, they are fixing, they are

maintaining, They are that like and the the joy that there is in

doing those things is a is a wonderful gift.

Yeah, I think to each other, to the church, to our community, it

is amazing. And you know that may that may

continue forever and it may not. It may have a season.

I don't know, You know, Punch, those guys are getting their

knees replaced. Yeah.

They're still here. Like faithfully working.

Yeah. And I genuinely believe it's

because they love doing it and they love the community of it

and the conversation. And, you know, I should mention

there are also, there are other groups of people in the building

at the same time doing various things around.

So we have a lot of, we have a lot of people who love to jump

in and. Grateful for those guys that

like they are the, they are the doers in many ways, absolutely.

And we and we need them. Yeah, but but not everybody is

gonna find that outpouring, um, life giving to the same degree

as as this current group of guys.

For those listening just on podcast, I'm raising.

My hand. Is yeah, because that's me.

Right. Yeah.

So, you know, like I think that's the best place to begin

with. This is just to say that at the

same time as we have that group going on, there have also been

groups of people putting together stations like prayer

stations and prayer rooms and thinking and praying through how

we can encourage people into silence and solitude and

contemplative prayer. And especially around Easter and

Christmas and at moments where where we want to encourage

people in that direction. Like we have people who are

very, very gifted in doing that. I say doing, but in leading that

charge as well. And as a church, I'm like, we

need all of us. So I think, you know, be OK with

who God has created you to be and be OK that you'll probably

have a bent toward one or the other.

But I, you know, I think at the same time, like if you're doing

to exhaustion and you're just burnt out and you're starting to

become bitter and you're like, I'm the only one, Like it's the

same people all the time. And why is it me?

And like, I'd really rather like listen to that as well and don't

let that kind of creep in the to to the person though.

Let me really answer your question to the person who wants

to try to shift where they're at.

A I think we like the doing. We like just easy steps because

they're like, I can do those. Very concrete.

ABC, I can do that. A + B = C that's a math I can do

and we like that. So I think one of the things

that I've tried to do and I don't know, I know where I

picked. I friend of mine uses this

language. I don't know where he picked it

up, but like, gamify some of the things that you want to do.

Yeah. So if you've got a, if you got a

bent toward doing things, then then schedule like make the

silence and the solitude and the contemplation, like gamify it a

little bit, right? You know, even just write

yourself A to do list. There there are.

I do think that human beings are naturally wired to to need

silence and solitude, but I think we at the same time are

bent away from it. We we shy away from it.

There's a. We don't need to go into all the

reasons why, but the I, I do think that if, if you are prone

to doing, then use that strength and kind of schedule some of the

being and sitting and it's going to be awkward at 1st and it's

gonna be hard, but schedule it in.

I could imagine, I could imagine for some folks it, it could

feel, it could feel like a, a just a rote sort of tradition.

If you if you schedule it. However I think it's there's

actually still wisdom in it, right?

Because if, if you are, if you, for those of you who are wired

that way, you may just need that to actually carve out the time,

right? And there's always going to be a

possibility that it, that it becomes just a just another

thing you're ticking off on your To Do List, but hopefully not,

you know, like, do you have, do you have any thoughts on how to

avoid that like? Well, I like, I think be OK with

it just being something that you take off on your box to begin

with. Like I think that's actually, I

think that's where where the downfall is, is that we have

these defeater ideas. I think that's a Tim Keller

line, like defeater ideas. He would always preach sermons.

He's like, what are the defeater ideas that people believe that

just make it impossible for them to believe what I am going to

say? What the Bible is preaching like

what? So it's just like, what are the

preconceived notions that we have that we walk in and just

like instantly done. I don't like I'm not going to

believe that because of this defeat or belief over here.

I think the defeater belief on this is that it's bad to

schedule it and it's bad for it to feel rote.

OK. Because it might need to fuel

route to begin with. Hmm.

Like it's, it's every time I pray, like I don't, I don't hear

audibly the voice of God every time I pray.

In fact, far fewer times than I actually pray, like less than

the less than less than average or less, less than the middle

right, fewer than fewer than half.

So again, different podcast, how do you hear from God if it's not

like God speaking to you audibly?

Like what are the various ways God is speaking to you And and

what are the various ways God speaking to to us?

To me for sure, different podcast.

But I think that the defeater belief is that you need to have

this like grand spiritual experience every time you sit

down to like, well, if I'm going to carve out time and if I'm

going to sit down, if I'm going to be silent, then it has to be

this big thing. And it's not always that like

there is a discipline that you need to learn.

I think that the the doing of it is showing up.

What we can't control is how God's gonna move in that in that

moment or in that during that time.

So it's OK that it sometimes feels wrote and and I don't want

to say meaningless, but that it feels like you didn't accomplish

the thing that you were like, hoping to accomplish.

Because it's not often about accomplishing not right.

It's and. And that's maybe where our.

Are are sort of a productivity focused world can can struggle,

right, But but I guess if we think about it like this is like

a maybe slightly silly, but like brushing my teeth twice a day is

a is a rote ritual that I I do blind blindly.

It's just it's, you know, it's just what you do because it's

good for your teeth. I don't usually get anything out

of that experience. I suppose my teeth do, but but

it is something that that is is good to do.

It is right to do. I highly encourage it.

And you're healthier for it, Yeah, Whether you whether you

like it or not. I had a dental pick up and I had

no cavities and they said, oh, looks like it looks like you've

been taking care of your teeth. And I was like.

Ohhhhh, great, someone noticed, but but like you're not wrong,

you're not wrong. And listen like they're gonna be

moments where God does show up and where it is that like earth

shattering ground out from under your feet kind of moment or

where you recognize now this is different.

There's something about this. It's a wholly experience and

there are going to be moments where you do it.

Hmm. I think learning the rhythm and

habit of it, yeah. Is it's OK that we're talking

about doing the thing in order to be with Jesus.

Like, your schedule needs to change, and that's OK, but it's

not going to change unless you change it.

You won't magically have time to spend with Jesus.

It won't happen. Like, nobody drifts accidentally

into progress. Yeah.

And so you have to carve out time.

You have to actually do the thing.

You have to show up in order to make time and space for it.

Yeah. So at that point, what I start

to say to people is, and we've talked about this a little bit

on early iterations of the podcast, like early episodes,

but find a different space. Don't sit in your normal chair,

like, but choose a spot and do a thing like I make coffee.

Like that's kind of what I try to do.

I make coffee in the morning and there's part of me that wrestles

and like, well, shouldn't I read my Bible before I make coffee?

But no, like I'm prepping like there's a, there's a I slowed

down kind of preparation that happens.

It's a ritual. It's a good in a good.

Way in the best, yeah, best form of that word, like in the best

meaning of it. So yeah, that's OK.

It's OK for it to be that and OK if you need to flip the other

way if you are, if you're prone to to spending a whole lot of

time reflecting and thinking. Maybe like you're in your head

too much. I think that's there are there

are some folks I know that that are that they can get in their

head too much where where they are are deep thinkers and it can

be beautiful. It can be like a a wonder.

We need deep thinkers. We need good thinkers, but.

To them I remind them of like the desert mothers and fathers

who early monastics would withdraw from society into the

literal desert. One of my favorite is a vigorous

of Pontus who was like, well, Jesus went to the desert to

fight the devil, so so will I and that's what we did.

So at any rate, the think about how much wisdom would have been

lost if they went off into the desert and never, never

returned, never wrote, never communicated, never met with if,

if they left and kept leaving until they died, right.

Like, and, and maybe that happened for some, maybe, like

maybe there's a ton of lost wisdom out there, but I, I just

like, think about how much the church over centuries would have

lost had that not been noise. This is a retreat with a purpose

of return. Hmm.

And that's like a rhythm. That's a rhythm we need to learn

in our, in our lives. So what, like, is there an

outlet where you are processing and sharing and discerning on

what you're hearing? Because the other thing that

happens is you go so far sideways, you're like, well, not

sure you're hearing from God anymore.

Well, and there's probably some, if you look at church history,

there are some very out there, um, kind of monastic where they

had these, these transcendent experiences that one could only

describe as bizarre, you know? Well, most of them are nastics

did. Yeah, yeah.

But what I appreciate about about church community is that

we do get to kind of stretch each other a little bit, right?

And, and there is opportunity, you know, there is opportunity

for all of the things that we're talking about, right, where

there are opportunities to serve and to do and, and in meaningful

ways that are yeah, sure. Like the, our, our team, that's,

they return on Thursdays. They are helping with the, the,

you know, they are stewarding our, our facility and property

well, right. There are others that are

serving on the front lines in our, on our food cupboard, in

the garden and, and others who are, who are helping, you know,

make coffee on Sundays and whatnot.

And then there are others who are in yeah, who are leading

groups and in groups and, and experiencing reading scripture,

learning, growing. They're even folks I know who

have led some studies over the years that are very like, almost

like academic, right? And like, I know for some people

that's been a huge benefit. Like that's been a real like I

learned so much and I'm and I'm really thinking about it and,

and it's been really formative for me and like that, that's

fantastic, right? And, and, and so like, I love

the way in which we can learn from each other and that we have

these rhythms and, and even the rhythm of, of Sunday, right?

That that we, we are, we are gathered and then we are

scattered, right? That in and of itself is it is a

microcosm of what we are ultimately called to do as

followers of Jesus. So I think just to return to

your question, the and I was flipping around looking for

something else that is gone now. But I do think that one of the

practical things that people can do if they're listening, if

they've listened to the end, like here's the practical next

step for you. I think there there is a

argument to be made that you sit down, look at your schedule,

look at your energy output, look at the time output, look at how

you are spending your life and compare it to what Jesus invites

us to. Come to me, be with me, hear my

words. Like really hear them.

And then go and live differently because of it.

Go and put them into practice. So can you see those movements

in the course of not like a year, but like each day?

Hmm. And can you see them in the

course of a week? And this is where I really think

like journaling your life will change your life because I just

think that so many of us, we don't, we don't actually think

about the way in which we spend our time.

I remember like screen time first came out and everyone is

like, that's not true. Surely that's not true.

Please let that not be true. And then slowly what we've found

is like, Oh yeah, no, that's true 100%.

Like we all spend hours on it, like on our phones, on our

tablets, right? Like this is like, so I just,

that was a mirror. That was a mirror moment where

for so many people, like your phone became this mirror.

You're like, ohhhhh, I didn't realize that.

And that's what a journal does, but in a much healthier way.

Yeah, it feels very bold that, but in this case, Apple, I'm

sure Android has an equivalent. It feels bold that they would

even do that. It feels counterproductive.

It feels like it feels like they would not want you to to reflect

on that. No, exactly, exactly.

Let's keep this 1A secret. But I think some of some of the

best OHS, just some of the best daily rituals.

And like the daily examine from Ignatius of Loyola, his daily

examine is just a really clean, simple way of thinking through

your day at the end of it and accounting for things throughout

the day. And like, I just wonder if you

break it down into those three things, like how did I, and I do

like John Mark Comer's language here, how did I spend time?

How was I with Jesus? How did I spend time with Jesus?

How am I becoming like Jesus? And how am I doing the things

that He did and challenges me to do?

Hmm. And can I see those things

daily? Not in massive ways, but in

slow, steadied day by day, morning and evening.

How do I see these these things shape in my life?

I think that's that's a a good point to drive home is that

it's, it's very small, very incremental little things, you

know, like I, I think that holiness and and our growth or

to use a very Christian word, set our sanctification process.

It's it is. It is slow.

I think by design, you know that sometimes there are are pivotal

moments of radical conversion toward a new way, a new way of

life. But in general, the the, the

life change happens very gradually, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, the one thing we can keep doing is showing up.

Hmm. Right.

And just one foot after the next, what's the next faithful

step? Hmm.

That's another just a good, like, don't think 10 steps down

the road, right? Like, what's the next faithful

step? Yeah.

And there's grace abundant when we fail like this is my like I'm

an all or nothing kind of person.

I'm like, listen, like this week and every single day and then

the next week, you're like, I missed one day.

So what's the point? Like don't get sucked into that.

Just day by day Grace and grace abundant.

So which I, you know, I think is a great place to and for today.

It's, it's been fantastic to go through this.

You know, Luke 6 has been a lot of weeks, but it's been so good

to just go through every little bit of, of this significant

teaching that Jesus gives us and to, to learn how to take it all

in. And, and I hope that we can

continue continue to do that and to to do exactly what Jesus has

to do here, which is to to come to him deers words and

ultimately to do them.