Faith and Doubt - Podcast Episode 20

Hey, friends, welcome to another episode of the podcast.

And this is a little bit of a different episode today, LA

Thanks for joining me. We have Elena, who is our kids

ministry director, children's ministry director.

I know we we were literally just saying that that that title like

that name changes almost every time we say it.

Angle the kids. Yeah.

Yeah. So Ellen is responsible for like

our children's ministry. And so if your family, if you

are a parent, you've probably run into Elena.

But Elena, thanks for joining me today.

It's good to be here. Thanks.

For having me so conversation around Luke 7, we are moving our

way through. We're going to get through Luke

7 quicker than we got through like 6.

So it's a good chunk. Let's not read it today, but we

do have some questions around this interaction.

It's 2 or like 1 1/2 interactions.

So if you need like a refresher, this is John the Baptist sending

his messengers to Jesus with the main question of of, you know,

essentially Jesus, who are you are?

Are you the Messiah? Are you the one that we've been

waiting for or should we wait for another one?

And I know we're going to get into to that and conversation

around that question itself. They come, Jesus gives them an

answer and then they leave. And then Jesus turns and he, he

explains things in sort of greater measure to the crowds

who are still there. So that's why it's kind of like,

you know, 1 1/2 stories. It's, it's really one, one

interaction. But these guys come in from John

and then they leave. And then Jesus teaches, uses it

as a moment to teach the crowds. So again, thanks, this will be

fun. And we've got some questions, so

why don't we start there? Yeah.

So the first question that someone messaged us is around

this idea of, you know, when we meet John, he's introduced to

us, kind of us is really kind of prominent radical figure.

He's out there in the desert way back in Luke 3.

We see kind of the baptism account and there's John the

Baptist on the side of the water, Jesus being baptized.

The voice from heaven is speaking, saying, this is my

beloved son. There's the Holy Spirit.

And Matthew describes John can wearing these camel clothing and

eating Lotus like this is a, this is a, you know, a big, he's

a big deal. He's a, a solid prophet

proclaiming God's word. And now we're seeing this

interaction. We're seeing, you know, the

messengers are saying, Jesus, are you actually the one?

And we had some people wondering, you know, his John

actually questioning if Jesus is the Messiah.

You know how how do we understand where John is coming

from here? Is he really wrestling with

these doubts? Did he lose faith?

You know what is kind of going on for John right now.

I love this question because I really appreciate questions

around faith and doubt. And I'm just trying to find some

of these other verses as well, like with the, you know, the

baptism of Jesus in Luke and the baptism of Jesus in Matthew.

There's a couple differences there that might be worth

talking about. But just at like a high level, I

think we often assume that faith and doubt are opposites, that

you can you can have great faith or you have doubt.

Yeah. And, you know, I think in in

part of the church has not helped that.

I think we we have operated under a base assumption that to

express doubt means that, oh, you must not have faith.

One of my favorite, like Catholic monastic writers.

So Thomas Merton said that you can't be a person of faith

without being a person of doubt. And I love that, you know, say

what you will about, you know, Catholic brothers and sisters, I

know like theologically we agree on many things and theologically

we disagree on many things. I absolutely love that posture

toward faith, that faith by its necessity includes doubt.

So I, I like that as a base approach to faith and doubt.

So first, just to try to dispel the idea that to doubt

necessarily means to not have faith, right.

So I would agree with Thomas Merton.

I think we cannot be people of faith and we certainly can't be

people of bold, significant faith without also being people

who doubt and who wonder. And so, you know, I see, I see

Thomas post resurrection, Jesus appears to all the disciples.

You know, Thomas isn't there at 1st.

And then Thomas, you know, he, he gets kind of brought into the

to the story and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not going to, I'm not gonna believe it until I put my hands

in the wounds and like see Jesus with my eyes and feel his body

with my hands. I will not like I'm not going to

believe. And and and I go, you know,

we've forever, we've called this dude doubting Thomas.

And I go like perfectly reasonable Thomas.

And I can't remember where I first heard that.

Like I didn't come up with it, but this dude is perfectly

reasonable given the circumstances, given what all

has happened. Like dead men don't normally

come back to life. And so perfectly reasonable

approach is like, I need to be able to express these doubts in

order to reach a place of faith. And what I love in the church is

when we do that well and allow people to ask questions and

voice doubts and express concern and wrestle out their faith.

Like that's what's happening. They're wrestling out faith less

so. You know, I think we can

historically have a tendency in the church, too, be scared of

people's doubt and be scared of questions and people wrestling

out in real time in front of us. Yeah, their faith, because it,

it kind of forces me. Like if you're wrestling your

faith out and if you're expressing doubt, then that like

pushes or impinges on my faith. Like, what does that like, do I

know what I believe? Like, do I have the same

questions? I thought I had a strong fit.

Like it kind of pushes us inside.

So we, you know, I think just need to get over that challenge

and struggle and say, hey, in order to be a good a person of

good faith, like great faith, bold faith, in order to have

faith, you need to be a person who doubts and who wrestles.

So I think John the Baptist is doubting Jesus.

I do think so. And I didn't, I don't know that

I said that in that exact language yesterday for us

yesterday. We're recording this on Monday.

What I said in my sermon is that John is questioning whether

Jesus is the Messiah because Jesus hasn't lived up to his,

John's expectations of what that Messiah would be and look like

and do. So I do think John has doubt.

I think he doesn't know who Jesus is to the extent that

Jesus isn't fulfilling what John thought would be the true right

picture of the Messiah. So he is wondering, He is

expressing concern and questioning whether he has

chosen to trust the wrong person.

And I think that, you know, again, like faith as a term

people can struggle with, right? Like, what does it actually mean

to have faith at the end of the day?

Like, faith is trust, yeah. And it's trust that Jesus is who

he says he is. Yeah.

And so I think that John is starting to wonder whether he's

put his trust in the wrong person.

Yeah. Like is Jesus actually the

Messiah? So yes, I think John is

expressing doubt. Um, and I don't think that that

doubt needs to be like explained away or, you know, like it At

the same time, it doesn't, I don't think need to cause

massive like crisis of, of faith for us.

I think it ought to encourage us that even John, who Jesus in the

next section calls the greatest, like, you know, yeah, greatest

prophet. He even he that John has doubt

and questions and wonders and Jesus is here for it.

He's like, bring it on. I got I He doesn't.

He doesn't rebuke John. Like he doesn't say you have

little faith. He says that elsewhere, but

like, you know, he doesn't say you have little faith.

Like, how could you? You're my cousin.

Like, haven't you seen all these things?

Like, don't you remember when he, he has this very calm, non

anxious watch what I do and make a decision for yourself?

He he he invites John, I think by way of his messengers into

the fullness of his doubt. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that kind

of stand out to me is an encouragement when I read this

is also just, you know, the humanity of John.

Like he yes, I think especially maybe with, you know, with that

childhood image. You see these pictures, you

know, if the again, this man in the desert with the scraggly

clothes and, you know, he seems so kind of almost otherworldly.

I think we have a lot sometimes we have a lot of those ideas

around the prophets in the Old Testament, you know, these

mighty men who are almost in their own class.

But you know, he's you see him just his humanity he is going to

Jesus with. Yeah, he's with these doubts and

even him having seen everything he's seen and done everything

he's done, He's still has those those emotions and those

feelings and those questions. So, yeah, just point to your

point that, you know, having those doubts in the 1st place

doesn't mean that, you know, you're, you're calling or your,

your faith or your faith journey has not been been amazing or

true or yeah, it doesn't. Those two things can exist in

the same person in the same time of life.

But then also where he goes with that.

So that's kind of the significant thing is he doesn't

just wrestle that out by himself in his prison cell.

He takes his initiative to send his messengers and he takes

those doubts to Jesus and he he questions him and he brings it

to him. And then the next part, what you

were saying is kind of that Jesus's response to him.

So I was hoping we could talk a little bit more about how Jesus

then addresses the questions and how does he kind of interact

with John in that moment with doubt and what could we maybe

learn about that as we we address the doubts of people who

come to us? Yeah, OK.

So not our even our own doubt necessarily.

So yes, our own doubt, but also other people who are expressing

doubt. So I love that angle on the

question because like, I think we can just, we have a tendency

to to personalize things and make it like about about me and

my doubt and my experience and, and you know how Jesus shows up

for me, which is great and good and right.

Like it's a good place to be and to start.

And if you need to sit there, wonderful.

But yeah, again, I think Jesus gives us this really calm and I

use this this language on purpose, like non anxious

response to John's doubt. He he.

So if you look at the the story like as the narrative unfolds

and 20 they show up. So the men had come to him.

They said, John the Baptist has sent us to you saying, are you

the one who is to come or shall we look for another?

And then in 21 in that hour, he healed many people of diseases

and plagues and evil spirits and on many who were blind, he

bestowed sight and he answered them.

Go and tell John what you have seen and heard.

And then he goes into that line. The blind receive their site,

the lame walk, leopards cleanse the deaf here, the dead are

raised up, the poor have good news preached to them.

And so two things are happening. One Jesus begins by, like I've

said, not rebuking John, not immediately correcting him.

He doesn't chastise John for having doubt.

Instead, what he invites the messengers into is just more of

witnessing who Jesus is like he he instead of distancing himself

from from them in a way that you know, he could just simply

answer, yes, I am. Go back and tell John I'm the

one, like, put your head on straight.

I like, we've been over this a couple of times.

You've seen the thing, which in my mind was like, distancing.

Yeah, Jesus distancing himself from the question, which he

never does. Like Jesus doesn't distance

himself from things that other people, onlookers would perceive

as, like, incorrect or socially taboo.

So we're going to see that at the end of seven.

So this coming Sunday, without spoiling, you know, the whole

sermon, we get this really awkward social interaction

between Jesus, a woman who's not named and a Pharisee.

And it's, you know, this, this woman comes in, Jesus is eating

with the Pharisee and the woman anoints Jesus feet or washes,

washes his feet with her tears and hair and then anoints him.

And it, it's this, like everybody from the outside, and

we're going to get into this on Sunday, Everybody from the

outside would be looking at this going like what is happening and

trying to like, it's one of those awkward situations where

you like, you're so everything is so awkward that you're just

like, I want to crawl into a hole and just, you know, not

have this happen. And, and, and so when human

inclination is to back up and kind of distance ourselves from

what's happening. And Jesus is always one who

leans in. So I see that happening here.

For starters, he, he doesn't rebuke, he doesn't challenge, he

doesn't correct, he leans in, he embraces them.

He actually invites them deeper into their doubt by saying, no

watch, like, look at what I'm doing.

Like he he's not just saying, Oh, I'll prove it to you and

that he actually invites them deeper into their out or into

John's doubt spoken, you know, by these messengers by by

continuing to do the thing. So he heals and, uh, you know,

like that again, you kind of wonder, like amazing moment, but

he continues just to live out the Kingdom.

Yeah. He's like, this is who I am.

This is who I am. You know how I've been sent to

be. And I'm gonna do that.

I'm going to invite you into it so that you can see it.

And he almost like he's like, you know, make up your own mind,

like you make up your mind on this.

But I'm not going to change who I am or how I am, like how I'm

acting just simply to make, to give you an easy answer.

So invite some further into their doubt.

They get to witness it happening and then make up their own

minds. So he invites them into that

whole journey. Then he says finally, right?

Go and tell John what you've seen and what you've heard.

And here's where he turns. He flips to not quoting verbatim

Scripture, yeah, but really pulling that thread from Isaiah

61 forward where the Messiah spoken of as one who does heal

and bring restoration and year of Jubilee language.

So again, this is Jesus opening that scroll in the synagogue at

the beginning of Luke where he reads from it and he says, I am

this one who was spoken about and the blind are going to see

in the lamb are going to walk and the dead are going to be

raised. And so he's really pulling that

thread forward from earlier in Luke where he's spoken those

words and ultimately from Isaiah 61.

So one quick comment on that. I think Jesus actually models in

a really simple way. Go ahead again.

He could have said I am the Messiah, I am the one.

But he's helping John get there. He's helping John connect the

dots. Yeah.

And so he doesn't make it easy on John, but he doesn't make it

overly hard either. So there's no guilt or shame.

Yeah, but he also doesn't give the simple, easy answer, like,

yes, get over it. Away we go.

So for us, how can we help other people who are expressing doubt

#1 like, come on, Like, no guilt, no shame in it with you.

And love that you're having these questions and thoughts and

wondering out loud about this. So thanks.

So I want people in our congregation.

And I'm sure you see this, like, working with parents, right?

Like, you're like, your kids are going to ask you crazy questions

about the Bible. And so one of the best things we

can do and our teams can do is help parents have those

conversations well with their kids when it happens.

So yeah, like, no guilt, no shame.

We're in it with you. Love that you're having these

thoughts and asking these questions and wondering out

loud. Thanks for sharing it with me.

All of those things that you would want to receive, right?

So that's I think our posture toward people needs to be open

and as Jesus models lean in and invite people further into it,

sit with it. And then I think the best thing

we can do because like I, you know, I'm not going to turn

around and be like, well, watch these people who are being

healed and like blind are like, we don't, you know, it's, it's

not the same turn that Jesus can make.

But I think we can encourage people by inviting them into our

story and by reminding them how we together can and have seen

God work so further into doubt. Don't be afraid of it.

Name it like Lean In. And then ultimately I think we

want to be people who can sit with our doubt in front of Jesus

and as a community, remind one another of where we've seen God

work. So like, I walked in this

morning. Yeah, it was this morning.

And so, like, I get here fairly early.

Like not, you know, and that's just by virtue of like, I wanna

spend time with my kids. It's not because I'm like, oh

great, I'm gonna be the first tier in the last to leave.

No, it's like I wanna be, I wanna be at home when my kids

are home from school. So, you know, early two of our

scene, you know, two guys, two guys are here for the

maintenance team. Like, and I, I love it.

Both of them are retired and I I say senior and I don't want to

offend anybody, but like these are guys who have been here

like, you know, basically since the beginning of this church

being planted. They're amazing, nothing can

stop them. I absolutely love.

It's like they're hanging across on the outside of our building

today, which is going to look great.

And so I'm wandering in. It's like still like, OK,

coffee. And what do I need to do today?

And they're telling me the story.

Have you heard the story of, you know, when we did this and

needed this amount of money and prayed and like, it was like,

you know, I think the amount of money that needed to be raised

was $70,000 and in in like on the day that they tallied it was

like 70,000 and $10. Yeah.

So it's just like, you know, really practical.

But like these dudes are like they're fired up about this

story from I don't 20 years ago maybe where like God moved in

our community and provided exactly what we needed.

Like not much more, but certainly not any less.

And so I said to them, I was like we.

Like these are the stories we need to hold on to and continue

to pass down, even, like, from our generation to generation.

Yeah. Because it reminds us of how God

has shown up. Yeah.

And so, you know, it's not like your job.

My job isn't to convince somebody to not experience

doubt. You're not going to be able to

fix someone's doubt, but we can remind people, I think, of the

goodness of God and where we've seen it at work.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, as we were going

through that through the end of community Bible study together

in Luke 6. And that passage just ends with

that, that kind of discussion on fruit, right?

Like a tree and its fruit. You know, no good tree bears bad

fruit, nor does the bad, you know, each tree is recognized by

its fruit to that whole discussion.

And yeah, that's also just, you know, we remind each other of

the fruit like we in our community here in our church,

you know, sometimes. Yeah, it's just we don't see it

because, you know, maybe John the Baptist, like he was

thinking of maybe these prophecies of like the the

Kingdom being restored and, you know, maybe he was focusing on

that one aspect. But Jesus said, no, remember

this, this is here too. And this is happening right now.

Like if you can see it, it's here.

And sometimes maybe we're, we're just focusing in on the one area

and there's all this other fruit happening and we just need to

remind each other and point it out to each other and come

alongside. Oh, hey, yeah, there's, there's

trickier, there's good things. And I think that's always, yeah,

that's encouraging to me too, is just being around the community

and hearing these stories of God showing up in these amazing

ways. And, you know, it's not

necessarily a quick fix for doubt, but it's it's part of as

we walk alongside each other and we encourage each other with

that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

So I love that perspective on it because it does like I think one

of the things we want to help people enter into their doubt,

but like we also don't want to become so myopic that like

that's the only thing that we're focusing on.

And this is like this one thing. And I think that's what John

does. Because if you read all of

Isaiah 61. So the thing that the thing for

me is I pictured John in prison. I think I said this yesterday,

like so prison for John is very likely in and around the Dead

Sea. So very dry arid, um, you know,

uncomfortable place to be in a prison.

And you know, so like I picture him going like, when am I gonna

get busted out of here? Like when, when is it my turn?

Because in, in Isaiah 61, if you read it, it literally says like

liberty to the captives, right? So in Isaiah 6/1, it talks about

prisoners being set free very literally.

And I think John is like, he's like, that's the line for me.

When's it going to come? And what Jesus, it's just like,

it's just like zoom out the lens a little bit and and remind

ourselves of all of the entirety of life within the Kingdom.

And maybe this isn't literally John.

You're gonna be released from prison because ultimately that's

not what happens for John. But in the big picture, grand

scheme of things, the Kingdom is unfolding in ways that John

doesn't really know. Like, I don't know, I don't be

too hard on John, but like, in very, you know, in very real

ways that I think are still unfolding in front of him.

He's figuring out in real time that the Kingdom isn't what he

expected. Yeah.

And in many ways is a whole lot bigger.

But in other ways, he's actually, he's going to be let

down because he's he's going to end up dying in prison.

And he's got to wrestle that out in real time.

Like, what does this actually mean beyond immediately being

released? So help people zoom out, I think

is a helpful thing. Don't wipe out the doubt.

But just like, let's just broaden our perspective a bit.

That's good. Alright.

The last thing we we kind of wanted to touch on briefly and I

definitely had this question when I was listening to the

passage being read. I'm sure other people had as

well. After John, John's, you know,

Jesus, sorry, tells the messengers, you know, go and

tell John. He then kind of turns around and

he he kind of praises John to the people and he has this

little bit where he say, he says, what did you go out in the

wilderness to see a Reed swayed by the wind?

If not, what did you go out to see?

A man dressed in fine clothes? And then he says, you know, I

tell you he's more than a prophet, the one about whom it

is written, I will send my messenger ahead of you who will

prepare your way before you. And then there's this line at

the end there. He says, I tell you, among those

born of women, there is no one greater than John, yet the one

who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he.

Yeah. So we just kind of had a

question around what does this mean that John, you know, among

those born women, there is none greater than John, yet the least

in the Kingdom is greater than he.

That seems like a little bit of a confusing thing to wrap our

heads, so maybe you can help us kind of tease that out a bit.

Yeah, for sure. So I pictured Jesus.

So Jesus talking in other instances about being born

again, like you've been born of flesh, born of of body, born of

here. It says like born of women,

women. So, you know, obviously he's

talking about like physical, real, physical birth.

But elsewhere where he talks about now you need to be born of

spirit. And I think that's a little bit

of the distinction that we're seeing here.

So Jesus is saying, yeah, there there are, there are two ways of

being born. You can be born of flesh.

Like everybody has this first birth where you are born into

the world, but you need to be born of spirit.

Do you need to be born again? You need to be renewed in that

way of like God's Spirit getting ahold of you and recreating much

of your life. And so I think here what he's

saying is if, if life outside the Kingdom and life inside the

Kingdom can be talked about in the kind of like birth language,

born of flesh, born of spirit, then, uh, we can also look at

it, um, maybe as like perspective.

So what I mean by that is, is among people, you can look at

John and say, no, no one is greater right?

Like here's the So what Jesus doesn't want to have happen, I

think is for people to go away and be like, oh, John's messed

up. He's missed the boat.

John's got doubt. Like maybe John's wrong.

We shouldn't listen to John. And if John's wrong, then maybe

is Jesus wrong too? Like if John was wrong about the

about Jesus, then what does it say about Jesus?

Who, who is he really? Like?

Maybe, maybe Jesus is wrong. Like so I think Jesus actually

wants to reaffirm the authority with which John is is moving so

far. But from that like outside

perspective, people would see John in that light as like the

greatest prophet who's lived to this date.

So for the people of Israel, they have these stories, these

collective narratives. They, they remember, they say

they remember. But like collectively as a

people, they remember like Jeremiah and Isaiah and they

remember the prophets who led their people through, you know,

a whole lot of turmoil and up and down and reconciliation with

God, with others. Like there's a lot that the

prophets so and and what Jesus is saying is listen like none

greater than John like this this he has authority.

This is the one you know whom it?

Was like spoke about him. Right.

You know this. He has prophesied about himself,

John. Yeah.

And so he says, I tell you, like, among those born of women,

none is greater than John, so you should still listen to him.

But then he flips it and he says, hey, And you know what's

even better than that? Anyone inside the Kingdom is

greater in a spiritual reality sense than John.

So it's not that. I don't think he's saying like

John is now lesser somehow and excluded.

Like I don't. I certainly don't think he's

saying that John is excluded. What he is saying is that

there's like there's a shift and John is functionally the last

prophet before Jesus. Jesus becomes the prophet.

So like the office, you know, threefold office that Jesus

holds prophet, priest and king. And those are the his his role

title function like that. You know how he he is inside the

Kingdom is one who acts as profit, one who acts as priest 1

to access king. So we don't need and just, and I

had some of this conversation in an earlier episode of the

podcast. So there's still the gifts of

prophecy that continue gifting through the Spirit of Prophecy

continues to this day. Well, you know, actually that's

argued, but I would say it continues.

But need for profit in this way, knowledge is no longer needed,

no longer necessary. So Jesus steps in ultimately

into that, that ultimate role of, of profit.

But I think really what what Jesus is trying to say is that

there is a shift that happens between John and Jesus and that

is the Kingdom has now come and life inside the Kingdom is

possible. And it's almost like you're

saying not just for the great prophets, but for everyone,

anyone and anyone who who has the spirit of God, who lives

life inside the Kingdom. He says even the one that you

would consider the least of these.

Yeah, I don't necessarily even think Jesus is saying like

there's gonna be this full on hierarchy in the Kingdom of

heaven and like the one who just scrapes in like that's not what

he's saying. I think what he's saying is you

all see John as a great prophet and you should.

Yes. Even if you all who see John as

a great prophet consider someone to be the absolute last least in

the Kingdom of heaven, even that person is greater than John

because of the gift and the blessing and the flourishing of

life that happens inside the Kingdom because of the Spirit.

So he's not saying John's excluded.

He's not saying that they're going to be like these little

itty bitty people inside the Kingdom and like some people who

are great and some people who just scrape in.

But what he's saying is, even for those of us who would

consider someone the least of these inside the Kingdom, even

that person is greater than John because of the gift of what it

means to be inside the. Kingdom, yeah, I liked how one

commentator kind of described it as he's saying the state of

blessedness in the in the Kingdom.

And, you know, we were just talking in community, I will

study on the sermon on the plane.

It starts off with the the blessed statements.

And we were talking about how God, how Jesus is kind of

shaping these Kingdom, people, Kingdom allowing people and what

it means, what it looks like to live in God's Kingdom and the

blessing that comes with that. And again, just kind of that

reminder of, you know, this is the Kingdom that has been that

Jesus has come to usher in and everything changes now.

Like we are called to be part of this Kingdom and experience this

blessedness and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And it I got it. I think it's a great, it's a

great promise. And there is a great in, in my

in my mind and experience of it. Like there's a great hope in, in

these sayings. I think that the thing that can

creep in is like that, like, Oh well, I wonder who's going to be

the least right. And no, no, that's not what he's

saying. We missed the point.

Like to say that to focus on the least is to miss the point of

Jesus saying is greater than he, right.

Which is it? Like what you're pointing us

toward is that the blessing is so much greater.

Yeah, than we could hope for, imagine or dream up ourselves.

Yeah. Wonderful.

Any other questions that we think we should cover?

I think that's probably a pretty good place to end.

Yeah, I think that's. Wonderful, wonderful.

OK, so we hope that this encourages you to have some

conversation yourself. Some of those questions right

might be the same. How do you interact and love

interact with and love people who are experiencing doubts And

maybe you know, one of the best things you could do is think

they're like, who showed up for you in a season of doubt?

You had a season of uncertainty and wonder and doubt, and

somebody showed up for you. You know what?

What did that person do? What did they say?

How were they toward you? And you know, I would just try

to encourage you to if you're one who is experiencing doubt,

if you are wondering yourself, questioning, these are the

things that we like. These are the conversations we

love to have. And so we would love to have

that conversation with you. Find somebody to share that

doubt with. Because like Elena, you pointed

that out, like John takes his doubt to Jesus.

He doesn't just rot away in his cell in isolation.

And actually that is something I think is beautiful.

Like he, he like kind of puts all his cards on the table.

He's he sends these messengers to Jesus.

But that's maybe the step that you need to take is to voice the

doubt that have been kind of rattling around inside of you.

So again, like Thomas Merton, I think is bang on.

You can't be a person of faith without also being a person of

doubt. And so we want to encourage your

doubts and also encourage your faith.

We hope that this conversation does that.

Elena, thanks for joining me this week.

Thanks for having. Me and we hope you have a good

week.