(Luke 9:10-17) - Episode 29

Hey everyone, welcome to the Sunday.

Sit down. And I don't have a cool pun for

that this week because it is Tuesday.

It's not Sunday, but we're talking about Sunday.

We are here today with Lindsey Setsima, who was preaching this

past this past Sunday through Luke Chapter 9, The story of the

Luke 9 · chapter mention

feeding of the multitude. And this is the job.

Not the 5000, 5000. Not the 5000 which only counts

men. It was feeding the multitude.

I I might have given a little Boo to not not.

I called you out on your Boo. You didn't let me get to the

point where I was gonna be like, no, we're not gonna do that.

But. That's OK.

It was it was a visceral reaction to, you know, for those

who weren't in there on Sunday. You know, Lindsey, you were

talking about how the 5000 only included men and that with women

and children, it would have likely been double, triple,

quadruple. Absolutely.

Yeah. And And so and so I was just

booing at the fact that patriarchal society.

And how they count, How they count people being.

There. But anyway, this is fun.

You and I have never done this. Before No, I kind of just like,

Oh my gosh, where is this gonna go?

So for those who don't know, this is my wife and we have

never I've, I've never interviewed her for her before.

We've never done a podcast together.

We talked about doing it at one point and then it which has

never. Happened, it just never had a

kid. Yeah, life and life and stuff,

all that stuff. Yeah, But here we are several

years later. Trying it out, trying it out for

court. Right, we'll see how it goes.

We'll see how it goes. So anyway, we are here to have a

conversation about this passage. And I was really, I was really

encouraged by a, a few conversations I had with people

after the service and just the way that they were reflecting on

this. And I think that what I want to

do today is, is get a little bit more specific and in some of the

ways in which we struggle. So I'll, I'll, I want to read

the passage and then I want to highlight those, those 5 words

that you mentioned as being sort of kind of the pillars of this,

of this passage. So great.

I'm gonna read here and then we'll get into it.

So this is starting adverse 10 of Luke Chapter 9 says when the

Luke 9 · chapter mention

apostles returned they reported to Jesus what they had done.

Then he took them with him and they withdrew by themselves to a

town called Bethsaida. But the crowds learned about it

and followed him. He welcomed them and spoke to

them about the Kingdom of God and healing those who needed

healing. Late in the afternoon the 12

came to him and said send the crowd away so that so they can

go to the surrounding colleges and countryside and find food

and lodging because we are in a remote place here.

He replied, you give them something to eat.

They answered we have only 5 loaves of bread and two fish

unless we go and buy food for all this crowd.

About 5000 men were there but he said to the disciples have them

sit down in groups of about 50 each.

The disciples did so, and everyone sat down, taking the

five loaves and two fish and looking up from heaven.

He gave thanks and broke them. Then he gave them and the

disciples to distribute to the people.

They all ate and were satisfied and the disciples picked up 12

basketfuls of broken pieces that were all that were leftover.

So there are 5 words that you highlighted.

Welcome. Give everyone satisfied and

broken. I loved the way that you, I'm a

little biased, but but I love the way that you structured

that. It was a little different.

Than yeah. Done.

It's not typically by preaching style.

So I typically go more kind of thematically or group big things

together. But I think when I was reading

that passage, I could not get those words out of my head as I

was I was looking at them. And I'd like to think that was

the spirit probably like maybe we should go in a little bit of

a different direction than maybe what you would typically have

done. So, and it and it really worked.

I loved the way that it sort of just illuminated these, these

different parts of the passage and gave them a lot of life.

And so we're going to kind of centre, we might not touch on

all of them like granularly, but we're going to touch on, on some

of them more broadly. So the first thought, and this

is a broad question, these 5 words are such a great picture

of the Kingdom as as you highlighted.

And interconnected. I just want to add that in.

Like, I don't think that it's possible that each one could

also stand on its own. But what I really loved is that

I think they collectively form a picture of the Kingdom.

I don't think any one of them is really complete without the

other. So you can't welcome without

being having a spirit of giving and generosity.

Exactly. And it's not giving and

generosity. It's not for everyone.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, well, like welcome

doesn't mean you welcome some. Welcome means you welcome

everyone. So you have to look at those two

together. Yeah.

So when I think about the Kingdom and when I think about

the church and the way that the church should function and I

want to like maybe as a brief aside, like separate like

Kingdom from the church. Kingdom is, is like the bigger,

broader overarching and the church, I often think of the

church as sort of the vessel by which the Kingdom is lived out.

There's a guy, Reggie McNeil wrote a book many years ago that

I'm failing to remember the name of, but he, he uses the metaphor

of the church is an airport and the Kingdom is the destination.

And I, and I always like that because it's like the airport is

essential for travel. If you want to go to Italy, you

got to go to the airport, right? And, and, and so the Church is

the vehicle, the vessel for the Kingdom to live out the Kingdom,

to do the work of the Kingdom. Yeah, I mean, I think I, I

appreciate the metaphor would say that I think the church is

also part of the Kingdom. Like it's not just the means to

an end. The Church also exists with

within the. Kingdom, that's why I don't see

it as like just merely a means to an end.

You're right, but it is because it's it's a crucial component of

the Kingdom, but it is, it is the, IT is the launching pad to.

Do all. Of the work, right, it is.

And cause it's a, it's a place where we naturally gather and we

have to like work out this stuff in real time and real life,

right? The Kingdom is the theoretical,

you know, until we have to actually do it with one another,

with people. Sure, every everything is just

an idea until it is actually lived out and it is meant to be

lived out. And so I want to like think

about churches functioning in light of the Kingdom, in light

of these these 5 words of welcome.

Yeah. And and giving and involving

everyone and and being satisfied and and broken is an interesting

one. That it was the weirdest word to

kind of throw in there because all of the rest of the words

have like, whether whether or not we live them out.

Well, all the other words give you warm, happy feelings.

Yeah, broken does not typically give you.

That so like, I think it's worth like just taking a moment and

actually spelling out, not literally, but talking through

how the church can can do some of this like great nuts and

bolts kind of stuff, right, Like and maybe even just like go

through them quickly and think like, you know, rapid fire.

Let's talk through some ideas. How can we increase our Kingdom?

Welcome for for people. Yeah, that's a question.

It's like, OK, just throwing it out there.

How do we increase our our Kingdom?

Welcome. I mean, I think welcome speaks

to, like we talked about on Sunday, welcome isn't just about

a hello or a greeting or a social courtesy.

The welcome here is about actually embracing people, being

happy that they're there, letting them know that you

genuinely appreciate them and that you value them.

There was no test for the people to be available.

Like whoever wanted to come and see Jesus came and saw Jesus,

and it says that Jesus welcomed all of them there.

Was the barrier of entry was. Yeah, the barrier of entry was

real low in this. Get there.

Come on. Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, the disciples, for whatever reason, or Jesus and

the disciples, I should say, they were somehow in a place

that could, I mean, I don't think it's an amphitheater, but

they were in a place where all of these people could also be,

right? Like if they had really, I mean,

if they really wanted to just meet by themselves, they could

have met in an upper room and at home or something.

But they, they are gathering in a place that also is primed for

people to be there with them. I do think there's something

about welcome here. Like the crowd obviously came to

Jesus. I think there is.

And maybe this is where kind of the metaphor, the passage

doesn't fail us, but it it doesn't show the complete

picture is that I think welcome can also be going into spaces

where people already are not necessarily people always coming

to you. That's the example that we we

see here. But again, when you're talking

about 1520 thousand people, how else was this really supposed to

look? Yeah, yeah.

So. But yeah, I think welcome,

welcome is the warmth. Welcome is the invitation.

Welcome is is I love that low barrier of entry of like, I mean

when you think, I mean, it's kind of like the word that

defines itself. Welcome means that everyone is

welcome, but welcome means open. I I really meant that welcome

means open arms like it's. Yeah, I often think it through

as, as someone kind of from a staffing perspective responsible

for our welcome process of church in some ways.

I I'm often thinking through the gaps, you know, if, if someone,

if someone comes and they are thought greeted, which is a form

of welcome, obviously, and they're not treated hospitably

and all, all of these different things, right.

Like there's some real practical stuff there that I'm, you know,

we're in the process of trying to really think through and

revamp in some ways. But but I think like you can get

lost in all those details. And it can become coercive in

some ways. Like there can be like, come up

and we'll give you a present and we'll bring you on stage and

we'll clap for you. And it's like, it's I doing

wrong. I am sure that, that the places

and spaces that do that they, they do, I think they have a

good heart behind it. Like I, I, I'm not questioning

that. But it's also, you know, we

talked about meeting people where they're at.

Like there's people where it's, it's some for people.

It's really hard to walk into a church or go into that gathering

or take that step and like, I'm going to be in a small group at

someone's house. Like that's really, really hard

for them. And I think welcome, you know,

we talked about like meeting needs in this passage, obviously

Jesus meeting the core food need that people had.

But on a more broader context, meeting people needs is also

meeting them and where they're at and welcoming where they're

at and that being OK. And then they sometimes

overwhelming people with five people around and, and ever

like, you know, we talked about giving people a cup of coffee

you don't want, you don't want like 8 people doing that.

Because that's. Too much coffee?

I'm an introvert that I like. If you did that to me, I'd be

like, Oh my gosh, I need to run away right now.

Like this might be too much for me.

But I think just at a broader level, I think that there is

there's there ought to be in in all churches and and in our

church. This like just this willingness

to go above and beyond in our, in our embrace of those who have

been around for many years, those who have returned after

many years away, those who are brand new, right that that are,

are embrace and welcome of everyone as they come into our

space. And I like that idea of

potentially that, you know, being extended to when we go out

to other spaces. But, you know, obviously,

practically speaking, we are often inviting people into our

space, whether it is for a church service, whether it's for

a community event, you know, like I think about the, the

garden open house that we had a few weeks ago and, and wanting

to make that a place that feels very welcoming and open.

We offer free food. We offer, you know, I just think

it's, it's. Yeah, Also say the one thing I

would add is a word that maybe not enough churches throw around

is like the concept of being accessible as well.

And I mean that in in all of its forms.

I mean that for people who have physical disabilities that need

a building to be accessible, people that have barriers to

listening or sitting in rows or learning in specific ways.

Like I, I think that there's a lot of creative energy that

could be put into making spaces accessible for people and that

being part of our welcome so. Our kids ministry coordinator,

she's done a lot of great work and wanting me wanting to make

sure that our space is accessible for, for kids of

varying needs and, you know, having, you know, headphones for

kids with sensory challenges. Yeah.

Exactly. And we're working on other other

things that will make sure that kids that have other other needs

are able to enjoy and enter into Sunday school as well.

Yeah, I would say like, no, no space is going to be perfect.

And it's not about creating a perfect space.

It's it is about, I think that the being genuine about you're

welcome, being genuine about the reasons that you want to do,

having that in kind of intrinsic motivation that is thinking

about it like a home. Like I want people who step into

our home. I can actually say that now I

want people who are in our home. I want them to feel comfortable

there. I want them to feel like we are

happy to have them there. It doesn't matter what they

believe. It doesn't matter what they look

like. It does.

It does. Those things don't matter.

I want them when they are in our home to feel like there is a

sense of warmth and belonging there.

And I and, and how do we bring that out to a macro level at a

church for people I think is important?

That's great. OK, next word give, gosh, give

and and so obviously like giving is correct connected to

generosity. Sure.

And, and, and just thinking, thinking through, I guess

sharing and, and I, I like that idea that you said out of

giving, not necessarily being equated with loss, that, that

there is something to be gained when we give and there is

something that, that when we, when we do this together, there

is, there is something beautiful that happens.

Do you think I mean like it's funny, so often when we talk

about give, the words are we give away like even that concept

of like it's going from you, it's going far from you.

Is you're right. We that is intrinsically

connected or or often in language connected to the

concept of give as where I mean at its most basic level in the

sounds, you know, like it sounds like a little bit like

self-righteous Christian, which I'm not trying to be, but it's

one of those like nothing is ours, like the earth is yours

and everything in it. So I'm 24, nothing is ours.

And I think that's a hard thing for people to kind of reconcile

in their brain. But what you have been given you

are a steward of and being a steward of something means at

times putting it towards another use like and even the word give

like still, it still makes that image of oh, it was mine to

give. But it's it's really more of a

stewarding like you're redirecting it to to a greater

need potentially. We have like a really tangible

picture of that in the church here.

You know, for those who have been around for the past couple

of years, we've been a branch of the Guelph Food Bank.

We're satellite location. And often people often ask us

where do you like, where do you get all the food from?

Are you dependent entirely on, you know, donations from the

church? I said no, we are a satellite

location for the Gulf Food Bank. They twice a week, they will,

they will make it, they will make 2 deliveries per week.

And we are in fact, we are stewards to then give that food

to those in need, right? That, you know, so you could

think of the Gulf Food Bank is gone and, and that we are then

becoming, we become the stewards of, of these gifts that we give

to other people, right. And there's something, I think

there's something in that for us to think about.

And as a church, how are we growing and stretching our, our

generosity? And, and sometimes that's

uncomfortable. Sometimes it's, it's hard to

especially when you want to. And we'll get into this when we

look at, you know, satisfaction and whatnot, like when we, when

we want to make sure that we've been looking after ourselves.

Yeah. Giving his heart.

Well, and it's not giving is not a call to neglect yourselves.

I think again, like given satisfied are the most related

concepts I would say out of all of them.

It's, I don't think that again, and it's, I think I said this

on, so I hope I said this on Sunday, that it's not a call to

like asceticism or deprivation or I don't think, I don't

believe that's what what Jesus is calling, calling anyone to.

But it is a call to generosity and to sharing and to seeing

needs and saying, if I can meet that need, I have in some way a

duty to do that as part of this community, as part of this

Kingdom. If I see genuine need, I need to

look internally. We need to look into as a

church, what is our role in using what we have provided to

help meet a given need. Again, just like with welcome,

we're not going to be perfect at it.

And not every need can be met by us, by an individual, by a

church that that's not possible. But maybe there's a way we can

connect it to someone else. Like I, I've worked in, in

social services before and no social service agency can meet

every need for the people who come to them, but they can also

say, I, I know a way to help you find that I can resource you in,

in another way. So I love that image of giving

is that is, I mean, I think all of these are, are internally

reflective to some ways. And it's if I'm seeing need,

what am I doing? Am I, am I closing my fists?

Am I crossing my hands? Am I saying I can't deal with

that? Or is there is there more of an

openness to dealing with that? And I do think that there is,

you know, a job for the church to do.

Our church, every church, should be asking what is the next thing

that God is calling us to? In terms of absolutely.

Generous what is the what is the thing that the spirit might be

leading us toward and, and I know that, you know, for for

court, right? It seems like it's food

security, right. That's been a big rallying cry

for us with our food security garden, with the food cupboard

and other aspects of well, even even like when people in our

community are, are like, you know, grieving or they've had,

you know, surgery or illness, like man meals, they just got

like food is food is, is seemingly a critical component.

And so it's like, what's the next?

What's the next thing in that way, you know, there, there's

more that we can do. We need to make sure we do it

responsibly. We need to make sure that we can

actually like, sustainably do that moving forward, right?

So we gotta make, you know, every church has to decide for

themselves what? What they can do, But I also

think we need to like, not play it too safe, right?

That God stretches. Us, yes.

That stretches us when we when we are faithful and in calling.

Well, and there's a piece to this story, and this is the

thing probably we did not touch on on Sunday at all.

There is a faith component to this story because the disciples

are asked to give up what food they have for themselves so that

they could help kind of meet the needs of others.

So I mean, we talked about give. There is an element of, of maybe

sacrifice in here. There's also that element of

trust. I mean, I think again, we talked

about on Sunday, but you know, this is called a wilderness.

The the text says remote place is better translated as

wilderness. Wilderness is a, is a place

often of testing of trust. You know, you see it with the

Israelites, with God providing their their daily needs.

You see it with Elijah and Kerith and God meeting his needs

that through the Ravens. And then again, that's a place

of wilderness. So wilderness is about God's

provision. It's also how are we trusting?

How are we, how are we leaning into knowing that God provides

abundantly even when we don't, you know, for the disciples,

they don't they don't know what Jesus is going to do.

They they see again, they see 55 lobes divisions like that's not

enough. What on earth could possibly

happen here? And but again, it was leaning in

to trust, leaning into, OK, I guess we're going to trust that

God is going to do something here.

He's going to show up and and he often does so.

That's good. That's good.

OK, everyone. Next word.

This one probably could be a little shorter because it's

simple. Everyone means everyone means

everyone. But I think that, you know, just

to to riff on that a little bit, like everyone, even in spite of

maybe theological differences, lifestyle differences, Yep, you

know, like there was no way for the Jesus and the disciples to

like, you know, do some sort of like.

There's no background. No background.

There's no background checks. On these as they arrive.

And that's a challenge. That's an attention that when we

consider our our welcome and our embrace and our generosity

toward people, that the challenge is, is that it's gonna

be uncomfortable because there's people that we're not gonna

agree with and that we're not gonna even necessarily like,

like on a social level. Yeah.

I think that everyone, like you said, everyone can be shorter

because it's simpler and we know what it means.

I agree with that. I also think that when you like,

when we think of everyone, it's easy to think of like our

friends or the people that, oh, I really want to get to know

them better. Like if that's easy, it's think

of the people that you struggle with most and what does it mean

to welcome that person? Yeah, not in a way that

jeopardizes safety or things like that.

Like, I mean, there's always, there's always a balance.

But what what does it mean? I mean, again, I think that we

so quickly go like, I would we love the picture of welcome.

And then I'm like, OK, but like that means welcoming this and

welcoming that and welcoming this and.

Yeah, it, it ends up becoming very messy very quickly.

And when we when we broaden our, our welcome to everyone and, and

that is a that's a challenge. That's something that, you know,

we've worked in a few different spheres, you and I of, of

ministry you worked at, at, at Hope House, Yep, for a number of

years. And, and there is a like, when

we consider folks that are, that are struggling with addiction,

folks that are struggling with housing security, there's,

there's challenging situations out there, like absolutely

people that are having extreme mental health crises.

And, and then, and then for, for others who maybe that is not

maybe in their purview as much. Like just think about the type

of person that you get along with the least, someone who kind

of represents your ire in some way, right?

Like that is like, we gotta figure out how we do that.

Well, you know, and, and we're not going to do it perfectly

and. How do we love those people?

Like, like, like and again, like.

I could be the challenge to someone and recognizing that

that me and and what I represent and the things I believe that

could be a big challenge for someone else.

And how would I want that person to embrace me and see the

fullness of me? Yeah, right.

And being able to extend that to others.

So. Yeah, it's, it's hard and and

we, we need, we need God. We need God's strength because

people are challenging, including me.

I am also people. I'm not gonna.

Say it this way, she's like I can confirm.

I can confirm that. But again, I can be challenging

too. We never we never want to think

of ourselves as being the challenge, but we what we would

be to some people. And I think just again, how do

we how do we lean into people with curiosity?

How do we lean into them with trying to think well of them,

trying to assume the best about people?

Yeah, Yeah. I don't it's, it's one of those

it's very. Hard.

And then also how are we not naive?

You know, to sure there is a certain, especially when when

you're dealing with, you know, there's subsets of people where

who will try to take advantage and who will try to, you know,

like utilize or yeah, take advantage of someone's kindness,

right? And I've been in that situation

where where someone not not at court, right, but or someone has

popped in my office and they've said I need this, that and

everything. And you know you're believing.

It's earnest. And then you find out they were

lying. Well, and again, we have to go

back, it's easy to think of these as one-on-one

interactions, like all individual one-on-one

interactions. If we think about, you know,

church spaces or, or any place where there is a group of

people, everyone has to mean everyone where it means of

welcoming. I, I, I want to like, I hate

reducing people down to like letters and things like that.

But like if, if welcoming one person or one group means that

other people are unsafe or feel unsafe or there's something

there, again, everyone often means doing the best for a group

of people. And, and what does that look

like? And understanding.

Yeah. I mean, I in our one-on-one

interactions, I do think that we should be welcoming, but I think

it's easy to think of things in a very individualistic way.

And we have to also look, take it, take it broadly into what

does it look like to be a welcoming group.

Yeah. No, that's helpful.

That's good. OK, next word.

Satisfied. This I think is the hardest one.

I think in many ways I absolutely it's.

Right up there with give the two together.

Struck me that being satisfied is a particular weakness in here

in the West. You know, we struggle with not

having enough for perceivably not having enough.

We there, we do hoard things sometimes.

You do have access. We.

And yet I know that many of us, including you and I, wrestle

with how to be satisfied with what we have, both now and for

the future. You know, how do we embody this

idea of everyone having their needs met, everyone being

generous, everyone being satisfied will also say looking

out for ourselves for the long haul.

You know, I'm thinking particularly of something like

retirement that many of us are, you know, have a lot of

existential dread about when we think about not having enough,

when we when we get to that point where we want to stop

working or we can no longer work full time.

So, you know, is it wrong to save for retirement when there

are so many who don't have enough today?

Is that not similar to like our, you know, when Jesus prays as

you alluded to, you know, give us Our Daily Bread or like the

manna and the quail in in the deserts?

Can I leave now? Choking.

No, it's one of those, I gosh, those are big questions and I

think we have to wrestle with I, I mean, part of me is hesitant

to give an answer only because I don't know if I have an answer

formulated in my head that I am 100% happy with.

I mean, I think we can talk about it.

I mean, do I think it is wrong to save for the future?

No, some people do. Some people do.

I, I don't think it's wrong to save for the future.

Do I think saving means that you have to have lifestyle X when

you could accept lifestyle why? Or when lifestyle Y is more than

enough? But you I think that we have to

ask bigger questions about needs and what is a need.

And again, it comes back to the question of satisfaction.

Is there is a wisdom in knowing when to say enough?

I think you see a creation. He knew he was that's after six

days. It was of course, he could have

kept adding. He could have done a continuous

output or, or, you know, whatever.

But he says, no, I'm going to stop that.

I, I've done enough. There is enough here that is

complete. I and I think there is a rhythm

that we need to know to learn when to say is enough.

I don't know that enough is the same for every person.

It could be these are very I'm gonna How about I just turn the

question back on you? What do you think?

What do you think about that? Yeah, I, I mean, yeah, this is

again, This is why I think this is a genuine wrestling with our

within our Western culture. And and I I don't think there

are hard and fast answers. I think that the Bible, the

Bible offers lots of kind of wisdom for how we approach our,

you know, our, our possessions and resources and, and even

money, right? Yeah.

It's not something that the Bible is shy to talk about.

The Bible talks about money a lot more than many, many other

subjects. Right.

Yeah. And so like, it's clearly

something that matters a lot. It's clearly something that that

we need to like, we need to be in prayer over.

We need to like deeply consider the implications of what we are

doing, how we're doing it like. And I think that maybe what I

could say is that for some people, the natural bent is I

just, I'm just gonna do everything that culture says

that I'm supposed to do, that I'm supposed to work and climb

the ladder, make as much money as humanly possible, and maybe.

I'll retire as soon as I possibly can so I can travel the

world when like. Retirement is not in the Bible.

Like Moses didn't retire. Yeah.

Well, then you start, I mean, I agree.

And then you start getting to the conversations about like,

well, they didn't live as long as we did.

You have to live longer. And there's all of these

questions about that. I mean, I will.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually retract something that I said

or, or add to something that I said earlier without losing

where you're going. But retirement, I think that if

you are either spending or saving and you have no margin

for generosity, you are never satisfied with what you're

getting. You always need to have more or

new or better that you stay up at night or often throughout

your day. Think about the scarcity you

have, not having enough, worrying about it constantly.

It keeps you up at night when you are living a very

comfortable life. I would say those are kind of

internal checkpoints we have to look at.

Like if I, if we, and I mean I'll, I'll use we.

But if we were ever saving to the point where we could no

longer be generous because we were so concerned with our own

security, we have lost the plot. We have lost the plot of of what

it's supposed to be about. And that's what I mean.

Like I don't have a problem with people saving, but when it comes

at the cost of all the other words, when it's you're doing it

because you can't be satisfied. If you're doing it because

giving and sharing is just so hard for you.

If you're doing it because you're trusting in your

security, and that rather than trusting your security in God,

then there are questions that you need to ask yourself about

your posture towards those. Things, I think you hit the nail

on the head there like that when when there is no margin for that

generosity, that's that should be a a big flashing warning

sign. Yeah, that something is not

right. Absolutely, Yeah.

No, I think that like if we, if you have your daily needs met

and you have some leftover at the end of the day, can you save

some? Yeah, I think you can.

If you're saving so much that you're you're never going to

need all that and you're you're ignoring the fact that someone

else doesn't have their daily needs met.

Like if you, if you can do that in good conscience, ignore that.

Ignore a need that you see that, you know, you could meet by you

having just that little less savings or they say you're

having you have little less access later on.

I mean, I think you would have to check your heart posture.

And I say that with no judgment because I am a person who, I

mean, I think I said this on Sunday, I love a good plan.

Like I love a good I, I love a good plan.

And and that's there's a natural wiring in me towards that.

But it can also become a distraction of if I don't follow

this plan exactly, there's going to be failure when I don't think

that's how we're called to live. I think we need to, I mean, I

don't want to get this into a conversation about tithing or

whatever it has to be and we can cut this out if it needs to go,

but I think some people often stick, wait, I'm hitting the

microphone. I think people stick way too

closely to like the idea of 10%. I think some people could be

called to give 5%. I think some people could be

called to give 25%. I think that your tithing needs

to be a very a reflective spirit filled conversation about what

you have the capacity to meet in terms of other people's needs.

I think the idea that it's 10% and beyond 10%, I can do

whatever the heck I want in this world.

I I think there is. I would question that attitude,

I would say. I I, I love that I'll let you

say that rather than cause it's like it's hard for.

For a pastor when you're no, but I think typing I mean I would

also say tithe tithing I think is in generosity.

Do I think you have to give all 10% to the church?

This might be an unpopular opinion for a pastors wife.

We might have to cut this part out.

I I don't I don't think that tithing has to only be to a

church. I think you should be giving to

your church. I think you should be giving if

you are worshipping in, in a community and you agree with the

mission and the vision of that church, you should be tithing to

it. Again, I, I don't think it has

to be a static 10%. I think some people give more.

There are people who live in more scarcity and giving is

really hard for them. And I think we need to honor

that. I think telling them if you're

not giving 10%, you're not a good Christian like I, I have an

issue with that, that mentality across the board.

And also, and again, as as a pastor, it always, it's very

fraught with like, because it just, it feels very like self,

self-serving and yeah, even self preserving in some ways, right.

Like, and, and so I, I feel often very uncomfortable with

those sorts of conversations, but I like, I like the way that

you approach that. And yeah.

I think generosity needs to, you know, I think that I love the

idea of generosity. I think of generosity for a tax

receipt, which I, I utilize tax receipts.

Again, we don't talk about this, but like I, I give to charities

and you get tax receipts for it. I also think informal generosity

is important of seeing again, seeing a need, meeting it and

getting nothing in return I think.

Flipping someone some cash? Flipping someone some cash, I

mean making food, having people over to having a big group of

people over your house that costs money.

Like I think that having making sure that you are being generous

with your resources goes, it's a bigger mindset than sometimes

what we reduce it to is what I will say.

Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if we ever talked

on being satisfied, knowing when to say enough.

That's being satisfied. OK, we're good knowing when to

say enough. And we've said enough for now.

For said enough. Let's touch before we wrap up,

let's talk about that final word broken.

And you talked about the the foreshadowing of of this being

an image of the Last Supper and then ultimately Jesus's body

being broken for our sin. I I just so rich, but

practically speaking, OK, how do we, how do we think about

brokenness? How do we think about the act

of, of the bread being broken? Is, is there something for us to

consider when we when we look at our lives, our lives as a

church? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of

layers there to broken because brokenness in, in this passage I

think is the is the mechanism to abundance.

Jesus breaks the bread and then we see the miracle of

multiplication. There, there's something.

There's something. There there's I know, and I

actually struggled to articulate it when I was writing.

I'm like, I know there's something there, but I can't

quite. Well, OK, so brokenness.

And if we use that in kind of like our more modern vernacular,

which I think works like when we think about like I am a, I am a

broken individual. I I am, you know, there are

parts of my life that are fractured and out of order from

the way that it ought to be and there but there is something

that happens when we, when we share that brokenness.

Right, like, and, and I think that's what I was trying to get.

I'm gonna take I'm gonna take it away from you.

Great. But like when, when there is an

acknowledgement of that brokenness, when it is seen,

when it is understood, I feel like that's when we talked

about, you know, the abundant grace, the abundant mercy, the

abundant love of God in this miracle of abundance.

It's our brokenness is the places where the abundance comes

in and flows through and where it where it doesn't work in us.

There is something there about that.

And then there's also something about just, and I'll use the

word vulnerability because I think it's there's a connection

there that when we are vulnerable in our brokenness,

when we, when we share our brokenness with one another,

like God does some amazing things.

Yeah, there's a multiplication factor there too, right?

Like you like if us sharing our vulnerability, what it could

mean to another person. The work of the Spirit that can

be done in us and can be done in others by sharing that again,

you see, I think that kind of miraculous abundance and

multiplication. I'm have an oversharer at times

and so sometimes after like a sermon.

You. So like after a sermon, someone

will will come up to me and they be like Justin, like thank you

so much for just for your like just openness and transparency

to share about like your your vulnerability and be like was I

what like what? There's also something really

beautiful in that because I mean, I think and you and you do

this really well, I can say this as your wife is that you, you

don't lean away from the vulnerability of that to the

point where sometimes it doesn't even feel like you're being

vulnerable. I can be the opposite of that

where and it's not because I don't want to see that

multiplication and it's not because I don't believe that the

spirit is working in my life. I have, I've always been a more

private person for lots of reasons.

And it's and, and yet it's a challenge to me to remember

that. There is still a piece of my

brokenness that it doesn't have to be shameful, it can be shared

with others and and the Spirit can do an amazing work through

that so. Well, I mean, you've had the the

challenge of growing up pastors kid.

I mean, that does do it sometimes is that you just need

a little more privacy. Sometimes it's helpful.

Yeah, we, I mean, my dad was a pastor of a large church.

So it was that that brings with it its own layers of being in

ministry. So like, and so like, I don't

like, I don't think that, that you are like wrong for, for your

approach because I know, I know, yeah, you, you have, you have a

sphere of, of, of friends and people that you can be, be

transparent and vulnerable with and, and, you know, talk through

your, you know, life's challenges and, and do it in

that. Way I would agree.

I mean, I think that the same thing of trying to, you know,

lean into the trust of God is sometimes you do have to just

take those those leaps and and trust that God will do something

with it. You know, we talked about with

giving, we talked about that with other things.

I think you. I think in all of these you have

to do. That yeah, there there's

something there is something pretty profound about when when

we take that leap of faith and and share our story, share our

life, share the the dark, even the dark spaces of our life and

the the broken places in our life, the ways in which God

meets us in that place, the ways that other people are are

encouraged because they're like, I'm not alone.

Yeah, I know and then and then it can extend to actually

encouraging one another in growth in those areas.

Yeah, right. For sure, you know, for someone

who, who is, you know, honest and vulnerable about a

particular sin that they're struggling with or a particular,

um, if they're struggling through just issues in there in

their relationship and their parenting journey in their

marriage, whatever, right? That it's like 8.

We're not alone. We're in this together and it,

and it multiplies the, the, the care and concern and the love

for one another. And then there can actually be

like change. You know, we we can't change if

we're not willing to like face and share with with God and with

one another. OK, so one final thought.

We touch on this in you touched on this a little bit, this idea

of Jesus getting them to gather in groups of about 50, which

were like the biblical components of that.

There's a. There's a numbers components.

To it, 50 is an important number and that's what you see.

You mentioned Jubilee and were some other things you didn't get

into that you? Don't know if people are

interested in this, but like so 10 is 7 and three.

The 2 numbers have complete 3, the complete community 7 is the

number of completion. That's number 10 together and

five or the five books of Moses. Then you have 5 and the 10

together which equals 50. There is a whole like

numerological component to this passage which we did not touch

on which I recommend people researching on their own time,

but I. Love, I love the way you just

rhyme that up. That's.

Great. Yeah, it's all there.

And then like you add another 10, which is like 10 and the

three together gives you the 1000.

It's great. So, OK.

But I'm thinking like just very practically about the number of

kind of in and around 50. Yes, yeah.

And I think about the way in which, you know, you mentioned

that, you know, well, we mentioned that Jesus has them

gathering this, that, that roughly that number of people.

And then also that Moses did that as well.

And I wonder if there's something to that, that when we

think about our ability, our capacity as a, as a people, just

as like, just as people to like have people in our world that we

can care for one another. Like if you're in a Church of

20,000 people, that's that's hard.

It's hard to care for 20,000 people.

You need small groups. You need smaller.

Groups, you need smaller groups, right?

Yeah. And so that's where, you know,

I, I'm just kind of riffing off this idea of like, OK, you know,

even, you know, there are small churches out there that are, you

know, of around 50 that would probably do a really, really

good job of caring for one another in the way that is

described in this passage. You also have groups within

churches, you know, like within court, right?

If we have, you know, say like our, our seniors group, which

could be around 50 or maybe a bit more, right?

You have our, our kids, you know, kids ministry with kids

and parents of probably more than 50.

But it's like it's, it's a it's a reasonable amount that we can

be in community with one another, that we can love each

other, welcome each other, that we can share our lives and our

brokenness and all that kind of stuff.

Like, and I'm just thinking about that number 50.

And just like, yeah, I just want to RIP off a little.

Bit, yeah, I mean, I don't know why.

I mean, I agree the number 50 is significant.

We've already talked about that in the passage.

Why that was the command for Moses to do that in the

wilderness being the number 50. Was it symbolic at that point?

Maybe it was symbolic at that point.

I think there is something there about that being this sounds

weird being a manageable size of needs that you you can kind of

keep a pulse on or that you can realistically meet.

I I think that I mean, Jesus modeled there are smaller

groups. He had his most intimate

friends, then he had the disciples, then he had larger

groups. So we, we've see, you know,

multi tiered size of groups throughout throughout the

scriptures and they all serve their various purposes.

But yeah, I think about this group of 50 seems to be the one

that you can reasonably care or you can gather in community, you

can make sure. I mean, we, you know, in in

Moses and the wilderness, there was a leader appointed over

these smaller groups. And I mean, I don't, I don't

know what happened with the feeding of the multitude, but it

wasn't, you know, there was kind of like a point person who was

getting the food, who was making sure it was distributed amongst

the 50. We don't know.

But I think that that would be a reasonable amount of people to

make sure our did everyone get enough to eat it?

Was there enough for this group? Are we meeting meeting the needs

of people we kind of where they're at or what they need.

And I think it's it is more manageable in a smaller group.

I don't think you could have one person.

I mean, you even think about it in a pastoral structure, like

one pastor of a church, depending on its size cannot

meet the needs of everyone. They need to having starting any

more staff, having volunteer to volunteers to come alongside and

help do that. There is only so much we can do

as people. And I think that, you know, when

you're talking about a group or for a gathering or community 50,

for whatever reason, seems to be that which was manageable to put

a put a leader over. Yeah, no, it just strikes me as

something that, you know, I'm always cautious to say, like,

you know, this is the model, this is an exact model that we

have that we have to follow. But I think that there is some

principles there like, hey, this, this is a, you know, just

practically speaking, this is a manageable size for people to be

able to know one another and to be known to share one another's

strives to have each other's needs met.

Where you're, you know, you're in probably enough.

There's going to be enough differences within the people

that it's not totally homogeneous.

Yeah. You know, like I, I just think

that there's something kind of beautiful about that, that I

walked away thinking about a little.

Bit I don't think 50 was prescriptive it.

Even says roughly. Yeah, it says roughly 50I do

think that again from the numerology, I think there is

significance. I think Luke is trying to play

on numbers, to draw images, but I don't think, yeah, I don't

think the 50 is meant to be prescriptive.

The, the 50 is, I think, meant to be descriptive of an idea

that it is easier to meet the needs of a community when the

community is a manageable size. Yeah, 5000 men plus however many

women and children is not a manageable size to kind of

figure out how everything is going on.

But you know, smaller groups of 50, they become something where

we can be, where we can be truly welcoming, where we can be truly

intentional, where we can ensure, like you said, making

sure we're we're we're knowing people and, and maybe, you know,

you can be vulnerable with people and, and that kind of

size. I think it's, it's the

manageable. I don't have manageable sounds

so. Well, it's it's.

Annoying like. Very practical.

Practical. I mean, it sounds very

practical. But that's OK, that's what we

want. We want, we want to be thinking

through those things. So and so again, we'll leave it

there for now, but I hope that you'll take some time to think

and reflect on these 5 words. Welcome, Give everyone satisfied

and broken and think about the way that that looks like in your

life, in the life of our church, in the life of our world

ultimately, because as we want to see Jesus Kingdom break into

our world, this is the image that Jesus gives us.

And so we hope that you'll think about the ways in which that

looks like for for all of us. So have a great week and we will

see you next time.