(Luke 9:57-62) - Episode 34

Hey everyone, welcome to the Sunday.

Sit down and I'm here with Pastor Grant as we are ready to

explore a really difficult passage.

And and so this past Sunday we were reading through the very

end of Luke Chapter 9. We are after feels like a couple

Luke 9 · chapter mention

months really in this chapter. We are moving into Luke chapter

Luke 10 · chapter mention

10 this week, but it ends on quite a doozy.

Yes, it does. And it like it feels hard and

even harsh. You read it and you're like,

yeah, yeah, what's going on? Yeah, What is Jesus talking

about? Here so, so Jesus in this

passage, he both inner, he interacts with like 3 different

scenarios and sentences and, and sometimes the people come to

him. Sometimes he goes to the person

and says something, you know, it's like the person comes to

him and says, I will follow you wherever you go.

And then the next time it's Jesus says to the person, follow

me. And then another person says,

I'll follow you, but let me first say what farewell to those

at my home. So it's this interesting dynamic

where of like just back and forth and interacting with these

unknown people that we don't, you know, it doesn't name them.

Hmm. Which actually kind of maybe is

a good starting place for moments.

You mentioned in the sermon that you chose a different

translation than you normally chose.

And we've gotten into this a little bit at times.

So you chose the ESV, which is the English standard version.

And and so you had a particular reason for that.

Yeah. And you said there was a

particular word, the word someone that it says the very

first section 57, it says as they were going along the road,

someone said to him, I will follow you wherever you go.

So what what's going on there? Can you unpack that a little?

Bit yeah, one word, literally for one word.

So yeah, I think probably most often I'm preaching from the new

international version, the NIV I will.

So I find it the NIV I find to be generally for people the most

readable version that is also closest to the original text.

So I think you know, and I'm using a version from, I think

it's the 80s still like. 19. 84 that Cambridge put out and so I

like the mix of readability in it and honesty and attempt to

capture the original meaning of the closer to a literal

translation of in the New Testament, the Greek text.

So a good example of one of the reasons why I like the NIV is I

think it does some of the, which is interesting because this is

the exact reason I didn't choose the NIV for this one.

Yeah, for this message is, I think it does some of the like

inclusive gendered language fairly well.

So for example, when it's talking about when it's, the

translation may say men or brothers, when really it does

mean everyone. Yeah.

So, you know, very often you'll read brothers Adelphoi plural of

Adele Foss, which is brother. But you know, we, we also

understand that in language where there is masculine and

feminine, uh, words, typically you're using a masculine word in

the plural form to represent a group of people that is not only

men, right. So y'all y'all.

Exactly you all y'all. Seem like, Hey, guys.

Yeah, exactly. Hey, guys.

Yeah. Absolutely.

So, you know, that's not the reason why I choose the NIV, but

I think they did a pretty good job of trying to use language

that everybody can read and find their way into the text.

Yeah, right. So that, I think is important.

It's important to find your own way into the scriptures and see

yourself there and feel like experience your way into the

story. And I think the NIV does a good

job of that, you know of, yeah, that balance.

But in this passage. So in this passage though they

don't and it in the NIV it's a man comes to Jesus and literally

it is someone comes to Jesus. And I just thought I'm going to

waste too much time going down this rabbit trail to make a very

simple point. It's not worth it.

I'm going to start with the translation that starts with

someone because that's what I think is most honest and closest

to the original language. And it's the specific to the

point that I was trying to make, which is someone comes to Jesus

and says Jesus, I will follow you wherever you go.

And I heard a sermon from the now former retired president of

the seminar that I went to in a sermon say very simply like this

someone could be anyone. This someone could be me.

This someone could be you. And I, you know, sort of half

quoted him in in the sermon. I said very similarly, like this

someone could be could be anybody and it could be you.

And in fact, you should see yourself here.

It ought to be, you know, here's someone who is is wanting and

longing to follow Jesus. We don't fully know exactly like

Luke, at least, you know, to be honest to Luke's text, we don't

know how this story ends for this guy.

Yeah, whether he, you know, whether this someone follows

Jesus or not. But like Luke doesn't tell us.

What I think I wanted and still want people to hear is the call

to follow Jesus, the call to follow me, to be that someone

who rises up and says Jesus, I will follow you wherever you go.

Like that is still, I believe, the fundamental call that Jesus

issues to every single person. And one of our one of our one of

the questions that you need to be confronted with is how you're

going to respond to that question.

And so, you know, here are three people.

It's this great. Jesus is always very typically

doing this. And it's very common in Jesus

day. This like threefold teaching

where there's like you've already said, there's the I will

follow, follow me, I will follow the three.

That threefold repetition is very common in Jesus is

teaching. It's very common in the teaching

of the day to make a point. So what Luke is doing very, very

critically live very intentionally is draw like

painting this picture of Jesus reminding these would be

followers and in a sense reminding his own like his

followers, his disciples and us what it really means to follow

him. And so that threefold you're

like, we're supposed to see ourselves there.

The someone is supposed, I think it's supposed to draw you in and

be like, it could be me. It should it ought to be.

It is me, like, Yep, Jesus, I'm with you.

And then the flip is, yes, I'm there, I'm in, I want to follow.

I'm all in even I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

And then to be, you know, confronted with that.

Oh, but you still don't fully understand what it is.

Yeah. Also, I two don't fully always

understand the cost of what it means.

So I think it's this, it's this beautiful and we didn't get this

far into it. I do think it's this beautiful

rhetorical move that Jesus makes and that Luke captures, which is

to like pull you in and get you to this place where you're like,

I'm there, I'm all in and but are you?

And then he says, and this is what it means.

And you go, ohhhhh, I didn't maybe fully understand.

And it just hits you differently than, you know, this isn't Jesus

saying, OK, here's the pitch to become a disciple.

This is what is going to mean who is in like he's like he's

he's got your attention. He's, you know, captured your

maybe your heart and your mind. And then he says, Hey, it's not,

I don't think this bait and switch, but it is a cautionary,

like don't, don't become overzealous.

Yeah. Without also realizing the cost

of love. Yeah, Yeah, it's, it was

daunting me as you were, as we were kind of rhyming off those,

those 3 phrases. I mean, at, at the risk of being

very wrong here, it almost feels like slightly chiastic like like

that I will follow at the beginning and then I will follow

as the final statement. And then Jesus in the centre

starts and he says follow me. And it feels like, yeah, in in

any chiastic structure, you're supposed to kind of zero in on

the centre. And it's like Jesus saying

follow me, That's the most important thing.

Rather than just saying I will follow, I will do this.

Like, good intentions aside, right?

She says just follow me, right? Anyway.

Yeah, So I don't think you're wrong.

Like and, and let me let me say why, because I, so I've not

heard anybody else name it that way.

But what I would what I would say is I I think Jesus is

constantly trying to do this in his teaching, is trying to do

this flip of so even just think of like I will follow.

No, follow me. I will follow.

Who's the principal actor, right?

Yeah. Like I, I do think that there's

a word of caution to someone who overzealously says I will do

this, I will do this. But Jesus says no, follow me,

right, Like the attention is almost shifting.

I will follow, follow me. I will follow does exactly.

I think what you're suggesting, which is put the focus on Jesus

call and that's what Bonhoffer in the Cost of Discipleship

focuses on, you know, like more than anything, like almost to

the degree where you could say it, it the IT doesn't matter.

Like you saying I will do something doesn't matter,

doesn't matter until Jesus says follow me first.

Like Jesus first needs to call a human bond offer does this.

He says just first needs to call a man, but he first needs to

call a human like a person. And our role is to respond

right? I don't know anybody who walked

up to someone and said, without having ever met them first,

things out of their mouth. I'm going to marry you.

Like there's, there's a little bit of that.

I think like we need to, the focus needs to be on the call of

Jesus that he places on the human being.

And our role is to respond and to be drawn and pulled in that

direction. So I think, I think that's a

great way to think. About it.

Side note though, I did declare, at least to myself, that before

I even met my wife that I was going to marry her.

Right on. So was it the first thing you

said to her when you met? Her it was not OK.

Because that would have been great in real time to meet the

very first person. 13 years old. Wow, we were just talking about

how you have predicted the last two Blue Jays games outcomes.

Well, I'm just, I'm an eternal optimist getting, we're getting

ready in real time here to get my heart crushed as they enter

the playoffs. So.

The marriage marriage has a little bit more at stake to.

It but I do think there's something interesting when you,

when you talk about like relationships of that nature,

like like a marriage, you know, you, you have someone, if

someone constantly went to that person that they that they

professed to love and are constantly saying, I will do

this, I will do this, I will do this, but don't actually put in

the work to do the thing like that.

You know the intentions are irrelevant in some ways.

Yeah, OK. Prove it, buddy.

Prove it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I just thought that was interesting as we were talking

about that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So no, I do think it like Jesus pursues you and that's the

that's the beauty of how God acts throughout all of

Scripture. And it's the beauty of how God

continues to act throughout human history is like God is one

who pursues and calls and back ends and summons.

Karl Bart talks about like he uses language of being woken up,

like being being awakened to the reality of who God is.

And, you know, realize that some of that language has been turned

into twisted sideways now. But like I, I think that's a

beautiful illustration of like God relentlessly pursuing the

person and, and our role being to almost relax into a response

as opposed to like anxiously trying to grab for ourselves

something that we will never fully attain.

I wish. I wish more people for their own

sake, like not not because I'm a pastor and I want to be right

about something, but like for their own sake, I wish more

people would just relax their way into hearing the call of

God. But it's something I need to

hear. And I think, you know, growing

up and and you know, I would say like my theological training

leans more into Wesleyanism versus reformed theology, right?

And, and sometimes they, those were very much at odds with the

other, right. But I think when we see things

rightly in there, you know, in, in the way that they are

intended, that the, the, the reformed tradition in particular

has a real gift of saying like, stop, stop stressing so much

about doing all the things because Jesus is doing the

thing, you know, that Jesus is pursuing you.

Like just sit with that reality, right?

That's, that's something that I need because I, I think that

there, there are some, some, you know, things that I have

inferred over the years that are not always right or true about,

you know, certain schools of theology, this, you know, this

being one of them. And so for me, I, I've, that's

been a gift for me to be able to just say like, I just need to

sit with that reality that this is healthy and good to just rest

in, in the, the work that Christ has done in pursuing me.

I think at its best, reformed theology does that, and I think

at its worst it does the exact opposite.

Right, Yeah, right. Well, and I think that you could

say the same thing for Methodism, right?

Absolutely. Like that it that it becomes,

you know, the tension is that you know, there grace is huge in

Wesleyanism, but also there is a strong emphasis on on on

personal choice and right, which can go sideways if you if you go

about it in the wrong way. Yeah, no, absolutely.

So we talked about 33 challenges to following Jesus, like to

answering this call to follow Jesus.

And then I gave 3 practices for each of those, which I think

we're gonna try to talk about in a little bit more kind of

concrete terms. But I do think just to kind of

link the two pieces, I, I said this on Sunday, like I, I

genuinely believe this. Like I, I, I know there are

people who very adamantly do not want to follow Jesus very

adamantly. So I generally assume that, you

know, most, most people who call themselves Christians want to

follow Jesus. And we struggle with this

internal kind of battle of the wills.

Yeah, like my will and what Christ wills for me and on my

behalf. Yeah, and what I want and what

what Jesus wants for me. And so like I, I, I do think

that I generally assume that people want to follow Jesus.

Well, but we're all broken. Hmm.

And we all wrestle with this internal struggles.

And so that's what I was trying to name a little bit is not the

sense of like, how could you not want to follow?

Let me convince you of why it matters.

But for those people who are wrestling it out, whether they

believe or not, like whether they are in in early sort of

stages of wrestling out what they believe or whether they are

wondering and questioning and just curious about religion and

coming to it for the first time. Like, I think there's a genuine,

like, want to, to discover and find out or, you know, for many

people who've been in the church for a long time, like I think

there's a genuine desire to do the thing.

And This is why I use Paul's language.

It's like I, I want to do the right thing and I just keep

doing the wrong thing. Yeah.

You know, we we wrestle this sin thing out daily.

And so that's where these challenges came from.

I think in some ways an attempt to name the some of the modern

challenges to being a follower of Jesus.

Hmm. And then, yeah, one practice

that can help kind of push against and form us in a

different way. So the first one, so as they

were going along the road, someone said to him, I will

follow you wherever you go. And Jesus said to him, the foxes

have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of man

has nowhere to lay his head. And so you, you highlighted the,

the challenge of comfort here and that the, the person is, you

know, boldly declaring that they will go wherever Jesus goes.

But then Jesus says, but it's not always going to be

comfortable and it's not always going to to have, you know,

there there will not be a luxury.

It's not going to be a five star hotel along the way.

And, and so just that the very practical piece of, of comfort

is not always going to be in the cards for a follower of Jesus,

right. And that the tension there is

that that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't also our comfort and

that the Holy Spirit is not also our comfort.

Yeah. And that there is not moments

and, and times of, of beauty and, and enjoyment and all those

things, right? That it doesn't exclude those

things. But Jesus is saying, look, that

the road is not always going to be easy and you need to be ready

and prepared for that. And then you, you responded with

the the answer to that, that challenge of comfort with as

generosity and and generosity being just an ultimately like a

desire to like if the more I give, even to the point of

discomfort, like it's actually going to free me so much.

More. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's CS Lewis who says that if you don't give away

enough to make yourself uncomfortable, he probably has

harsher language than this, but at least think about it, right?

I think he says we ought like the Christian should should be

like, ought to be the one who gives away what feels like just

a little bit too much, which, you know, I think we can come to

the conversation around generosity from different

perspectives. I think part of it is always

going to circle back around to money and we can talk kind of

more about that too. But, you know, I think the the

type of generosity that I was talking about on on Sunday is

not simply when generosity that refers only to money, but I

think just in terms of all of the way you live your life and

how you make decisions. How are you becoming one who is

practicing being generous? And I, I, I think that is in

terms of how you think about your money, right?

How you spend it, how you allocate it, what you budget.

So for starters, do you budget right?

Do you plan to give away? Or is it like, let me do all the

things and then whatever's left, you know, if there's something

left over, then I can be generous with that, right?

I think the Christian is the one who is called to say no.

The, the first things that we give are the things we give back

to God. So that is going to be money.

But I also want people to think about their time and their

energy, some of the like your most precious resources.

You know, how you are spending your time, how you're spending

your days becomes how you spend your life.

So are you doing it in a way that is living open handed

toward God and going God? You know, even today, would you

make me generous so that I can live for somebody else's benefit

and not mine, Right. Like I think it's even as silly

as like, you know, we're talking before like I'm, I might have to

go up and visit a family member and I think about that drive and

I go, I got like 407401400. I'm like, OK, I'm going to be

generous. I'm gonna give people space.

I don't know, people give people grace.

I'm gonna not. Stress on the.

Highway on the. Highway.

Oh boy. And so like, I, I really, I want

people thinking and I, I wanna be one who thinks about all of

these moments of my life as an invitation toward generosity.

So giving extra grace. That that is generosity and, and

that's, yeah, reframing it and that, yes, it's not not about

money, but it is. That's so much more and, and,

and for us to conflate only generosity with money would

would be a danger. Right.

Absolutely, and it actually like something that we did yesterday

in our service is like a little bit of insider baseball here.

So I, I, we on the 4th Sunday of every month, we take up an

offering. We don't do that every week, but

we pass the plates for those who would who liked and enjoy the

the physicality of of that, right.

And there's an importance to that.

And it just keeps things on our mind.

And, and the reality is we are, we are reliant to function as a

church on the generosity of of our congregants, right?

That's just reality, right? But I came to you and I said,

OK, so I have the offerings slated for right after the

sermon. And you're like, Nope, you're

like, no, we got let's let's, let's like, but let's, let's

create a buffer there. Yeah.

And, and you couldn't, you know, you couldn't quite articulate in

the moment, but you were realizing you did not want to

conflate those two things, which I think was the right thing to

do. So I, I had a prayer, a moment

slated in there in between that. And then I led the offering,

which I think was the right call, right?

Yeah. Because we don't want, we don't

want to make it seem, especially because it feels very like self

interested to to make generosity all about money and all about

giving to the church when we should be doing generous things

with our resources and money in in ways that go far beyond just

giving to the church, right? That I should be generous with

making a meal for someone in need.

I should be generous by because that costs time and money and

resources, right? I should be generous with my

neighbors in in in various ways when I find out that they are

sick or, you know, whatever, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think that was, that was a

really, I think beautiful moment and exchange and two things that

I, that I want to say 1. I think so often that's how

discernment works is like I, I even, I think I said to you,

yes, I can't tell you why. I just know that this is it's,

this is the right decision. I'm glad we have that

flexibility like we need that. Yeah.

And I think what, where, where it becomes true, like true

discernment is not just because I said I can't, like I know that

this is the right answer and I can't tell you why I just this

is the right thing for you to then say back, Yep, OK, great.

So this is what we'll do. And then for it to be, I think

confirmed. As I'm sitting.

There as you're sitting there as.

Hearing the sermon exactly. And I'm like, Oh yeah, that that

was that was the right call. Right.

So all of that together, packaged together is actually,

and this is not to pump our tires, but just to give people,

I think a picture into A, the decision that we've made to

intentionally separate it, to not make it feel coercive in any

way. But B, also to give people a

really practical example of like this is how discernment works

where there is conversation that's more than just one person

making a unilateral decision. There's confirmation of it.

And so, you know, I like, I just think that's a pretty good

simple illustration of, you know, this is what I'm sensing

from God. Yes, OK, agree.

And also we see the fruit of that decision and it's not gonna

always be that immediate, like within the course of three

hours. But like, that's a pretty good

snapshot into I think how I envision and want for you,

listener, to think about discernment in your own life,

not just your own. Like want can being sort of

pseudo confirmed by what you think is God speaking to you or

by somebody else who just wants to agree with you.

Like you have to see all those things.

So yeah, it was fun. So that's the one thing that I

want to say. The other thing that I wanted to

say too about this is there is a conversation that we had and I

don't think it's today about tithing and offering and

generosity and that the the fact I think those things overlap,

but they are not actually in fact the same.

So I. Think I'd love to tease out the

like and again, not today. So this is just stay tuned for

some other time, like how we think about, you know, because I

mean, there are lots of people that have like differing

opinions on, you know, the approach and, and the amount and

the percentage and whether or not the New Testament does away

with all of that or whether it doesn't.

Or whether it increases, increases it.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think we should have a

conversation like we should do a podcast episode on on generosity

and on like on tithing and offering.

Because I think the other the other piece that I didn't want

people doing is just conflating the two.

Be like, oh, this is only over and above, right, Right.

Because that's actually not, I believe what a tithe is.

It's not just, again, it's not the last of what you have over

and above what I'm going to spend on my life over here.

So anyways, yeah, I think it was the right move.

And I think what I want people to hear from today is the

discernment piece because I think that's just really

practical for your own life. And I also think, like, it's the

insider baseball thing that you said, you know, we want people

to know that, like, our heart is not to make it feel coercive.

Yeah. Out of the sermon into like, OK,

now give. Yeah.

But wasn't that a great sermon, everyone?

Can you, like, give in response to that?

You know, like, no, that's so icky.

What what we're doing is giving into in response to what God is

doing. Yes.

That's the big picture. So it is a response.

It's not a response to like, oh, I like the music extra today or

that sermon extra convinced me to do this or, you know,

whatever. It made me feel good or, or made

me feel convicted. And now God, yeah.

Giving, giving out of out of that level of, like obligation

or giving out of that sense of like you're like, oh, that was

I'm coerced now. Yeah, no, it's not great.

Exactly. We respond.

We respond to what God is doing in our lives and in the world

and and we give because we believe that God is calling us

to partner with what he's doing in the world.

Yeah, that's the language that we use when we introduced the

offering. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So generosity.

So yeah, think about it in terms of big picture, whole life, open

handed. How is God going to give you

opportunities to choose to be gracious and benefit and extend

in in extra measure the things of the Kingdom to other people

as opposed to trying to accumulate even the good things

of the Kingdom for yourself? MMM.

So I think that's the danger. If I could just kind of flip to

that. The danger is that we fall into

the trap of thinking that being a follower of Jesus is

comfortable in the sense of it gets me what I want.

So I think that's one of the dangers of comfort.

I think the other danger of comfort is that we're, we think

that we've arrived or made it right, that, that there's not

more hard work to be done right, that there's not another

conversation to have or more reconciliation to work toward or

more conviction that God's doing in your life, like you've not

made it. I've not made it.

And there are hard conversations for me to have in my life that

are going to, I believe ultimately lead to more life.

But they're, they're going to almost want to say like there

are moments where it's going to suck in the meantime and it's

going to be hard and you're going to have to address those

things in your life that Jesus wants to root out and change and

shift and, and that work is never done.

Whether you've been a Christian for a year or whether you've

been a Christian for 80 years, the the, the work is not done.

Sorry, right. And, and I think that that what

happens over time is we learn to see the the conviction and

correction of Jesus like we learn to see the judgment of

Jesus as liberating. Because again, This is why I

think I I like the language around practice so much because

it takes time and you have to do it over and over again.

And sometimes you can be like, I got it this time.

And other times you can be like, I missed it so incredibly.

But what what we know is you, Jesus is calling you to move and

to continually progress forward. And that in that movement,

there's going to be challenge, there's be conviction, there's

going to be change. What I think ultimately I hope

for, for the listener is that you learn to see the fruit of

what's got of, of what God is doing in your life enough that

you realize that the judgment and conviction and challenge of

those hard moments is always for your good.

Um, so I think, you know, we, we want to avoid those painful

things. We want God just to like, can

you just please, I mean, I'm snapping here like that's the

noise like in an instant, can you take it away?

Can you deal with this? Like, can you just make this

done? Go like be over whatever the

thing and like we want the easy fix.

Jesus isn't the easy fix. Yeah, right.

But it's like the what you've been created for fix.

So it it they're hard. They're hard moments in life.

And like I can think back to them in my life.

And again, the thing that I just want people to know, and here is

there's like wonderful freedom on the other side of those hard

things, and then there'll be another hard thing, so.

It's good. OK.

Do you wanna move on to the next the next challenge?

So after that example, after the the first statement that Jesus

says, says to another, he being Jesus said, follow me, but he

said the other person, Lord, let me first go and bury my father.

And Jesus said to him, leave the dead to bury their own dead.

But As for you go and proclaim the Kingdom of God.

And I don't, you know, want to rehash this everything that you

said in, in the sermon, because I mean, if, if you were curious

about that, go back and listen because Grant sort of unpacked

some of the cultural hypotheticals there, the

potentials of, of what this man was really saying, because I, I

want us to stay, you know, at a higher level of, of priority,

right? So, so the ultimate thing that

that this man seems to be saying is my family takes precedence

right now in all things. And and and that is probably one

of the harder things for us to wrestle out in especially in our

I find in our world, in our world today.

And maybe it's this part of the world, particularly I find that

family, I see this carefully family like almost becomes an

idol sometimes. And, and like I, I love my

family and, and I would do anything for my family and like

that. So like just this, this hits

home, right? And I think for you as well,

right. And so when we talk about

priority and Jesus as priority, I, I like the way you framed it.

Maybe we can, this is where we can go off a little bit.

Is that when Jesus takes priority in our lives, though

it, it seeps into every area of our life, right?

That all of a sudden I am a better husband.

I'm, I'm a better father. I'm, I'm a better, I'm a better

worker, I'm a better friend, I'm a better whatever.

So whatever, like whatever your priority is, maybe it's, maybe

it's work. Maybe it's the pursuit of

something that is ostensibly good.

We need to take a seat back and say, OK, is this, is this taking

over? And then you know, the the

inverse of like what we need to surrender here.

What do we need to surrender to make sure that Jesus is

preeminent? Yeah, that's good.

I think NT right. I think it was not right In one

of the commentaries that we read through in preparation for this

week says, you know, the irony is that the more you prioritize

Jesus and that living like following Jesus, so living all

of life inside the Kingdom of of God, the better your other

relationships become like the better your family dynamic and

relationship is the better spouse you can be the better

friend, the better parent. So you know, I think that is

that is part of the challenge is learning.

I think to trust that the more I think my language yesterday,

like the more relentlessly I pursued Jesus, the better a

father, the better husband I'm I'm going to be.

I think I still AM. Yeah.

This. This is what did end up in the

cutting floor. I still wrestle with the

language of priority. Yeah.

And I don't know if that's good or bad or some of both.

But you know, we were talking in the sermon prep meeting that we

do every week about the idea that, you know, you can you can

sacrifice your family on the altar of ministry.

So that's probably not prioritizing Jesus.

That's like workaholism masking as faithfulness.

But, you know, we know that that happens all the time, that that

pastors do their job and live their life in such a way that

makes their kids walk away from not only like ministry, but

Christianity altogether. And there was one example, and

I, and I won't name the person, you can Google it if you want,

but like there was a, a pastor who lived many years ago.

And, and the, the, the story goes that this person was so

quote, UN quote, faithful to their, their ministry and, and

all of their works in that way that his spouse kind of walked

away from that, that, that marriage after he had passed

away. And she ended up remarrying and

was like, I know that he loved Jesus, but my, my, my now

husband, I know that he loves me.

And so she was like describing this, this feeling of like, I,

I'm not, I don't, I didn't feel that love from him, which, which

is a miss. That's a huge miss.

And, and you could potentially conflate when you talk about

priority, which is why I understand the tension of that

word is if we have like a list, we say, well, Jesus at the top

and then everything else, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right.

That could that you could imagine that going sideways in a

in in certain personality types and.

Yeah. So I think it's not the list.

Like I, I think it's not the list.

I would go so far saying this is going to be judgmental and like

somebody will judge me after I die and that's great.

But like I would go so far as to say if if your spouse says of

you, I know that you love Jesus, but I don't know that you love

me, you're not loving Jesus. That's fake.

Yeah, discipleship like that is that is religiosity.

That is, you know, I, I don't want to question, you know,

this, this dude, salvation like that's, that's not what I'm

saying. But it does make it makes me

less inclined to to quote from him, to be honest.

Sure, right. You know, and that's not to say

like each of us is broken in different ways.

And you know, each of us need extra grace from Jesus and extra

formation in specific areas of life, like where there are just

bent toward be it anger or bent toward complacency or like

disconnection, like disconnection.

They're they're like each of us will default kind of in our sin

and brokenness toward these sort of negative sides of

relationship. So.

That's a good counterbalance, yeah.

Right. Yeah.

But I, I do think, and This is why I, I think I've quoted him

on the podcast already a few weeks ago, but I, I really like

Dave Adamson's language. So this is a passer I was

talking to about family and early on like in in my ministry

and in my journey as as a dad and he used the line, the way I

love my spouse is the way I love Jesus.

The way I love my kids is the way I love Jesus.

There is no distinction there. And that I think gets at the

heart of what Jesus is trying to do.

And like Jizz is saying like like that, that is a priority.

But actually what we need to see is not this ladder or list of

disconnected priorities where I will spend what happens then,

right? Like you have 100% energy, I'm

going to spend X percent on this.

More than 50% of Jesus is your priority.

Right. So like 51% is that is that

enough or does it just have to be the biggest chunk 20% and

then everything else is less than 20%, right, Right.

It's not, it's not this equation and it's not simple like that.

It's not a easy to fix and find and do and articulate like Jesus

and then spouse and then kids and they're all going to be dis

and then job and everything can be.

Disconnected. Feels very disconnected, yeah.

Like everything becomes integrated into how you follow

Jesus. So that means I'm going to be a

different spouse, means I am going to parent differently, It

means I'm going to do my job, whatever it is differently.

If everything I am doing points to how I am loving Jesus or not,

that is going to change the way I do the thing.

Yeah. So when I get on the 407 and

then the 400 and maybe the 401, if I, you know, want a spicier

drive, like the way I am there in those moments is the way I am

choosing to love Jesus. And, and I don't think that like

that doesn't cheapen what it means to follow Jesus or who

Jesus is. I think we need to genuinely see

all of life every moment as like in terms of our discipleship,

our life in relationship to Jesus.

We don't get to cut off a piece and be like, OK, God.

So for the next 20 minutes, I am not following you, right?

Or the next 45 minutes on this highway, I need you just to turn

the other way and ignore what I'm about to say or think as I'm

getting cut off all over the place.

Like it just does that, that that kind of dissociation or

like division or like tearing apart of disintegration.

Maybe it's the best language for it is not the life that Jesus

calls you to. Hey, are you gonna fail?

Am I gonna fail? Am I gonna say yes, absolutely.

You're not going to be perfect all the time.

And that is OK. But yeah, I think that's that's

the level of integration that I do believe we're challenged.

And then you and then, you know, we use the language of surrender

as as a way to sort of push against the, the temptations of

prioritizing things in, in different ways.

And, and surrender can also be challenging as well.

Like, you know, I, we've talked about this before, I think, but

you know, the, the, the first thing I think of is that the

hymn I surrender all and, and kind of the joke of, you know,

like it's really more like I surrender some, you know, like,

but, but I think that again, when we see it through this

different lens of, of it all being integrated, it's not I

surrender all of meaning. I'm going to like, I'm going to

give every single one of my possessions and my clothing and

I'm going to give up all of these things and I'm going to

like do all that. And and because I I'm told I've

got a sounder at all, right, It's rather Jesus in that Jesus

in my, in my home, in my, in my possessions, in my am I willing

to hold it all loosely right. And if that, if Jesus called me

and said like not on the phone, but Jesus called me to make a

radical life change, maybe to move across the ocean, that's

very extreme, but it could be to move on the other side of town.

It could be to live an intentional community somewhere.

It could be to whatever that was that I say, OK, Jesus, I don't

get that. It's not comfortable, but I want

to surrender it, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think a

very simple prayer that you can pray through is as you.

So I, I like, I don't like transitions, actually really

don't like transitions like from one thing if I'm if I'm invested

in the thing and need to like just screeching halt and shift

to something else like that's actually that's challenging.

Right. But I like what what I was going

to say is I like transitions as markers for maybe some of these

prayers. So as you know, we're recording

this podcast. And while we're recording this

podcast like it's APA Day for my kids, they're not in school, so

they're hanging in my office. I can hear them giggling a

little bit, yeah. It's great.

Yeah. But you know, we're gonna, we're

gonna go from this and I'm gonna have to shift back into the

like, full on kind of dad mode. They're in there and I'm trying

to get some stuff done. So, you know, how am I praying

as we get up from recording this and moving into that next piece,

you add whatever you want for this next thing.

I'm open to it, right? Like, just keep me sensitive and

open to what you're doing in these moments.

Let me not miss it. And I think that's because I

agree. So that him I surrender all the

moving across the ocean, like my goodness, like massive, these

massive moves. Like a year ago, we moved my

family not across the ocean, but to a different city and to a

different church. Like those are big moments.

And yes, they require surrender. And God might be asking you to

surrender at that level, but I actually think we're where it is

most difficult because you can get really behind those big

decisions. Like, OK, like, I'm gonna seek

people's counsel. I'm going to talk.

We're gonna pray about it. We're going to make lists.

We're going to think, we're going to explore.

We're going to do all that. We're going to remain curious

and open. And we're going to ask, you

know, we're gonna make it into this big thing.

I think what's harder is the daily surrender of the little

everyday quote. Mundane which I don't actually

believe exist. Moments of life, like the

everyday little moments. And because, again, I said at

the beginning, like, the way you spend your days is the way you

spend your life. And I don't know who I'm quoting

there, but it's not me. So, you know, somebody said

that. Yeah.

And I do think that what we're called to is this daily

surrender. CS Lewis calls it self surrender

in these smallest of ways is actually still the call of

Jesus. So I think where we practice

this really practically and specifically is I think of

praying that prayer every time in your day when you shift to

something new, just pray. God.

God, would you keep me open to whatever it is that you're going

to do in these next moments and then see what happens.

Like it's just this constant open handed.

Yeah, I'm turning my hands up here.

Like for those listening, just constant open handedness,

whatever it is. Yeah.

That you want for this next season, like 30 minutes or the

next two hours make, you know, would, would you make me open to

it? Yeah, it makes me think of of

yeah, like especially for those of us who like to have a very

concrete plan for our day to say, OK, God, would you, would

you help me to just be a little less rigid as I go into this

morning or this afternoon, Right.

And and and see what God does in that right?

Yeah, we talk about holding things loosely.

Yeah, right. Like that kind of language is,

is good. Yeah.

So another really practical thing I would say is there's a

book called Liturgy of the Ordinary.

And literally like the the book is a, the goal is to make

everyday moments feel holy again.

And so to rediscover these little practices like when

you're making breakfast or like when literally like making a

piece of toast waiting for it, right.

So like, yeah, yeah, what? What do you do?

Like, I don't know, what do you do when you stand there waiting

for a piece of toast to to go and depart?

Like just choosing to slow down and saying, OK, I, I just think

that there are really practical ways of using moments in in

every day to go, OK, God, like, I'm open to what you're doing.

I'm here. I'm showing up.

Like, man, so much of the Christian life is just showing

up. Yeah.

For me, I, you know, doing the dishes, I've, there's been, you

know, a couple times over the past month where I've been like,

OK, I have a lot of dishes to do here.

I'm not going to put on a podcast, I'm not going to do

this. And I'm just going to like just

just just nothing. And that we don't like that.

I don't like that because I'm left alone with my thoughts and

God, and that's going to be scary sometimes, but but God can

speak pretty powerful things in those moments.

Yeah, yeah. So big surrender.

Yes, absolutely. I think for most of us, try

practicing little self surrenders.

I want to do this God. What do you want for this next

half hour? Like, I'd really rather turn on

Netflix and just, like, tune out for, you know, an hour or two

before going to bed. OK.

Yeah. Like, what do you want for this

next, like 2 hours? Yeah, I'm not saying that it's

going to change what you ultimately end up doing.

Like I don't think it's gonna magically make you holy or

person like, but I just think that that practice does change

you're ultimately your life. But it does start small, and it

can start small. And don't feel bad about

allowing it to just feel like those small acts of surrender.

Yeah, feel I feel like a whole bunch of small acts of surrender

turn into large acts of faithfulness, right?

Yeah, Yeah. So let's jump in to the the

final one and we're probably already way overboard, but just

buckle in because we're not done yet.

So the final, the final contact point here for these individuals

talking with Jesus. Yet another said, I will follow

you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home.

And Jesus said to him, no one who puts his hand to the plow

and looks back is fit for the Kingdom of God.

And this is someone who, I mean, you describe this as the

challenge of, of history that the person is, is looking back

rather than looking forward to what God is now doing right.

And, and you described a little bit of the, the challenge for, I

mean, obviously us as individuals where we can look

back at a better season in our life and think to ourselves, and

the best is not yet to come. The best is already happened.

You know, God worked then in my life and he's not working now.

That's kind of a negative attitude.

And we can do that as churches as well, right?

That we, we have in our head some some picture of a golden

era where God was most at work and that we will, you know,

sometimes our attempts to recapture that can, can be

nostalgia driven rather than asking ourselves, God, what are

you up to? What, what, what are, what do

you want for us? And, and that you know that,

that you described it as curious obedience of we want to ask God,

like what, what are you doing in this next season?

In my life in, in, in our life as a church.

And yes, maybe, maybe it may be trying some of those old things

from the past again. And then it may be in a new and

fresh way, but maybe it's a totally new thing and we got to

be ready for that. And that's scary, but it's cool.

Yeah. Yeah, I think as a like, as

churches, we do this. Churches are churches can be so,

yeah, so stuck in this habit and pattern.

And This is why I love that. Like, there's only so much

history here for us as a church. Like what I want us to remember

is the church planting spirit. Like, what I want us to remember

is not the method, but the commitment to the mission.

And again, I'm quoting people here like this is not my

language. But I do think when we look back

as a church, what we are, what we are fondly remembering is the

outcome of the mission, right? Is God moving and doing stuff in

our lifetime? But then what we idolize are the

methods. Yeah.

Because we think that, oh, in order to recreate that moment,

to use alliteration, we need to we need, we need to re we need

to revisit the methods or we need to really like, we need to

hold the method is what we hold forward when really it's like we

need to be committed to the mission of the church.

The methods will always change, so I think.

We complete they have since the very beginning of the Church.

Absolutely. So you know, for a long time an

organ was the primary instrument.

Gregorian chants before that. The organ was called the Devil's

Instrument when it was first introduced.

Like people fought. Churches were divided, like

literally split over whether to have an organ.

There were churches that had multiple services and so they

put an organ on a lift and they would lower it into the basement

so that people didn't have to see it.

Is it like like Phantom of the Opera is like that?

I feel like that, that vibe of like the.

I think there's the organ being low, like below.

Yeah, it's like. So I like like.

We will always fight over methods.

I'm like when drums got introduced into a.

Church absolutely. So you know, I think what ends

up happening is we look back and we idolize what God was doing.

Like we go, hey, this was great and it was great.

That's the that's not the problem.

Like that's, that's the gift of it.

But it becomes the problem when when we say, you know, wasn't it

great back then? Well, what got us there?

So let's do those things and hope that it'll create a fresh

movement of God's spirit. And what ends up happening

always is you miss what God is doing right now.

And so that's why I think it's so dangerous to look back as a

church. It's good to celebrate.

It's good to honor and recognize man.

We stand on the shoulders of faithful people, but they didn't

get like, they didn't see God move in their lifetime because

they asked, well, what was God doing?

You know, the generation before, hmm, They got there for us

immediately. They got there because they

planted something new. Hmm.

And so God, like God, did a new thing.

This church was planted. And so I think, yeah, we need

to. We did not look at methods.

We need to stay committed to the mission.

With that, we need to move forward and, and I, I, I want

people to hear this, um, how like it?

Just how sad would it be if we missed what God was doing in our

moment because we were more caught up with what He did in a

previous moment? And I think there's always

something interesting about, about looking at, you know,

within those methods that worked really well in like the, you

know, whether it was a method that worked really well 1700,

you know, 7 in the 1700s or a method that worked really well

in the 80s, right? That you can sometimes look

rather than at the specific thing you start looking like

what was what was underneath, what was like the undergirding

factor there, right? Where, where you can look at,

you know, say something like the, the shift.

I mean, these worship as an example, like the shift from

hymns only to sort of some of the praise chorus type things

from like Maranatha and Vineyard and and those sorts of those

sorts of movements happening in like the 70s and 80s.

Yeah. And and see where God was

amazingly at work. That doesn't mean doesn't mean

we need or must sing all of those songs from the 70s or 80s.

Some of them maybe will bust out every now and then.

But reality is a lot of them sound very outdated and cheesy.

Sorry, sorry for any 170 sorry. But like this reality is like, I

mean, I'm a 90s kid and, and 9, like I would say the same thing

for some of like the old Hillsong stuff from the 90s,

like, yeah, super cheesy. And yet you, you see underneath

that the way that God was, was moving among the churches and

people. And it's not about the

particular song. It's it's about the the the

spirit of what God was doing within those movements.

Yeah. So you know what method I think

we should always only ever be married to is prayer.

Yeah, because I think that like when I look at.

So if you were to take the revivals, for example, which is

just even like to talk about what's happening in our own

lifetime, like I got to hang with 30 university age students

at the university here in town. And I ought to tell you, man,

like I have, I don't know that I've been as optimistic for the

church as like in recent times as I was leaving that, that

gathering. That's cool.

So like God's doing something in the that generation.

So Gen. Z, Genz, whatever you want to

call them, right? University age and and beyond.

A little bit, but like you and I aren't part of that generation

and I, I don't know when it happened that I was like the old

guy in the room, but four pastors there and I was one of

the old guys and I just got to sit there and cheer them on.

And like that God is doing something incredible in that

generation. And I don't know what it is or

where it's going to go and where it will lead, but like something

is happening. So to name that throughout

church history, I don't think, I mean, I think it would be a very

hard argument to make that you see anything like that

happening, any sort of revival that you can't trace back to a

group of people praying. Yeah.

And so I think about some of the, yeah, some of the revivals

through church history, some of the moments where God did the

work of revival in a generation. I think you can probably trace

it back to a group of people getting together and say, hey,

we are going to pray and we're going to pray, and we're going

to pray. And nobody might know, but we

are so deeply committed to this that, you know, those are the

things that spark renewal and revival.

And so often it's a group of Christians who get together like

it. Yeah.

And, and meet in someone's home, right?

Like, it's, it's, it's, it's not something that's like declared

from the pulpit. This is what's happening.

Get ready. I don't think, yeah, that's the

tension is we don't just get to like declare revival, No, like

revival. Like, I mean, not that we get to

control God and how God moves and acts, but it it is most,

yeah, most frequently, you're right, It is.

It is like just people gathering and praying and just God showing

up in a profound way. Yeah, yeah, the dig deep longing

so OK, so yeah, curious obedience.

And and like, I think about that again for for our church, like

that's so, so, so important that we are just we remain just

reflective on on God. What are you doing in this

season in this moment? And like, I can, I can say that,

you know, earnestly, truly right now, like God, what are you

doing in this season, in this moment?

Like we had, you know, like 25 plus people out like a newcomer

is lunch yesterday. Was that the number I?

Didn't I? I just did a really rough

estimate that didn't include the kids that were kind of now, you

know, running around out elsewhere.

But it was just like beautiful. Like, yeah, for a Church of

like, kind of like 200 ish on a Sunday, like 25 people.

And I know that there was a whole bunch of others who are

new that we're not there, you know, like, God, what are you

doing? Like, this is cool.

This is awesome. Like how can we capture this

moment and, and, and just partner with what you are doing

in this moment? Yeah.

I think that's the that's the curious obedience piece, right?

Because what, what fear would say is, well, what if, what if

this change demands something of me?

What if, what if following where God is leading makes me to go

back to #1 uncomfortable, Yeah. What if?

What if I lose influence or authority?

Or what if I lose control of the thing that's happening?

What if I can't define? It I don't know as many people

as I used to. There's all these new people.

Where do they all come? From what if I start to feel

like the new person or like an outsider?

Like, you can see how fear leads you down those roads fairly

quickly, and the end of those roads is cynicism and

bitterness. Yeah, right.

Because it's cynicism. Cynicism says God must not be

doing this because I don't like it, right?

Or for whatever reason, but like it must not be God because it's

not what has happened in the past.

Or we didn't plan for it or we didn't do it, or we don't

understand it or we don't like it, especially that one.

We don't like it. Like cynicism is the God's not

doing it. Bitterness is the I don't want

to be a part of it. Yeah.

Even if it is. Hmm.

Because I don't like what's happening.

There's no place for me here. So curiosity and obedience and

curious obedience, I think. Is that another?

Another word that I had thought about using is wonder.

Hmm. So I think it's this, this

constant practice of saying God, what are you doing?

And with it, I would say, pray this prayer.

God, how amazing it is that I get to witness it in my

lifetime. Hmm.

So I don't understand it. I don't know what it is you're

doing. I don't know where it lands,

like where it ends. Not quite sure my role in it.

Happy for you to reveal all of those things to me.

God, thanks that I get to witness this in my lifetime.

How cool. And I think particular they're

touching on, on Gen. Z and, and this trend of, of

there, like when you see church attendance stats, it, it's

spiking, you know, it's, it's with millennials and Gen.

Gen. X, it's, it's like, it's, it's

plummeting a little. And then with Gen.

Z it's spiking, right. And, and it's like that is going

to be a very real tension for for you and I as they emerge as

as full-fledged adults in the life of the Church of like they,

they may see things very differently.

And, and, and it's like we need to remain open to how God is

going to work in that generation, right?

Yeah. So just like very, very

practically speaking, like that is something that we are going

to have to grapple with in, in the next couple years really.

And and it's why like I love this, but some of our staff are

genes, Ed. Yeah, right.

Like some of our staff are, are inside of that generation, then

that demographic. But I do think one of the

challenges becomes, yeah, how do you steward leadership and

authority? Well, in terms of releasing the

the next generation of leaders to actually lead?

Yeah. And not just say, you tell me

the good ideas that your generation likes and then we'll

do them. But to say, hey, be free to

lead, like go and do the thing, you know, yeah, release to go

and lead in the ways that are gonna reach that generation and

beyond. And then I think of our kids

generation. So I go Gen. alpha, like man,

we're waiting in the waters. Like, I don't know when it

happened, but you and I became like middle-aged, that guy.

I got more Gray than you, man, like hairy.

So it like I think every generation has had to wrestle

this out of releasing, releasing control and not making the past

an idle again. I think what I want for people

to learn is that prayer of yeah, curious obedience.

God, what are you doing and what are you calling me to do in it?

Yeah, because you're not done. Like if you're not dead, you're

not. Done, We have that.

That's the great thing is that I think we will have so much to

offer. You know, in the same way that I

look to like my, your, you know, your dad, your dad's a pastor

and my father-in-law was a pastor.

And it's like we, we often will look to them and say like, Hey,

we're trying to wrestle this out, like and, and like, do you

have any wisdom or input for us? Because they've been through so

much over the decades, right. And so like, there is always

more to offer. Right.

But yeah, like, it excites me to think about like having to

wrestle with some of those thoughts of like, we gotta we

gotta figure out how we're relinquishing control and

relinquishing. So surrendering it's going to be

uncomfortable. All the things and This is why

you just, you preach to yourself. 1st that's great.

So this was like, OK, this is probably one of our longest

ones. I don't have I haven't seen the

time on it yet, but it's probably one of our longest

podcasts. So if you are still with us and

you hung out with us, this was, I think, one of the muddiest

ones that we've dealt with. Like there's just a lot of

there's a lot of stuff in this passage that we have to grapple

with and just a lot of stuff in our real lives for us to wrestle

with. And so congratulations, if

you've stuck it out. We are going to continue to

wrestle this out. Yeah.

And and you have something. No, I just, I just think the

best is yet to come. Amen.

Yeah. So we'll leave, we'll leave it

there for today. And if you have any questions,

as always, you can send those questions to questions at

courtrightchurch.org. And we will do our best to

incorporate that into our our weekly rhythms as we record

these these podcasts. For now, have a fantastic week.

We'll see you next time.