Podcast: Living the integrated life (Luke 11:37-12:12)

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Sunday Sit down

where it's not Sunday, but we're here sitting down talking about

this past Sunday, this very lengthy passage that that I had

the privilege, we'll call it a walking us through it was it was

your idea to draw in and I think it was the right call.

So I'm not like, I'm not like lobbying a, you know, I'm not

blaming you. But it was more of it was, it

was your idea to, to, to throw in the beginning of, of Luke

Luke 12 · chapter mention

Chapter 12 in addition to the end of Luke Chapter 11.

Luke 11 · chapter mention

It was the right call. It was the right thing to do.

It all came together. But it was, it was a lot, yeah.

It was a lot, it was a lot of heavy lifting.

So I thought, no, I thought you did a great job.

It came together really well. And this is just another another

example of, I think, you know, worth noting as we were sitting

studying the passage a week ago, like last Monday, we read

through to the end of Chapter 11.

Like this doesn't feel resolved. And just felt like it leaves you

hanging in a way that's maybe unhelpful.

And one of the questions that we ask ourselves and that I want us

constantly challenging ourselves with is like, where is the

gospel? How are we preaching the gospel

every single time we get up to preach?

And so, you know, be it through very explicit, easy to see and

understand. Yep, that that is absolutely

like, you know, passages about Jesus, death and resurrection.

How, you know, beyond that, how do we see the gospel kind of

coming out in all of the way Luke is writing and in all of

the interactions with Jesus and then how Jesus is speaking and

teaching and preaching? Because I think that that's, you

know, to, to, to just simply say, like there are two camps

when you ask people what the gospel is, there are kind of two

camps in, in Protestantism right now.

And one will say, well, it's, it's Jesus's death and his

resurrection. It's atonement theory.

It's how you understand forgiveness of sins, period.

And then there's another camp which says, no, it's, it's, it

is all of that. It's Jesus's death, it's his

resurrection. It's, it's atonement theory.

It's how you understand forgiveness for sins.

And it is the way he lived his life and the teachings he gave

and the Kingdom that he brought. And as he lived, he brings the

Kingdom. Like for Jesus to arrive is for

the Kingdom to arrive, all of the ways of the world that he is

turning upside down, subverting or overthrowing as he lives and

teaches and challenges and rebukes, like all of it is the

gospel. Yeah.

And I'm in the second camp. Like, I'm in that camp where,

you know, yes, it's his death and his resurrection.

But when I talk about the gospel, I think when we talk

about the gospel, we're talking about so much more.

If this is to say the gospel is really to say the life of Jesus,

all of it. And so we got to the end of that

passage in 11, the end of the chapter.

We're like, well, like, where's the gospel?

Where's the turn toward hope and where's the like, you know,

let's not leave ourselves in this fear kind of moment, but

what does Jesus speak into the fear?

And that's that, that's that turn in 12.

So he's like, sometimes you gotta slow down and do a single

verse and sometimes you gotta straddle 2 chat 2 chapters and

finish 11 and launch into 12 in a significant way.

And this is where we're going to end like we're we're done with

Luke now through till Christmas, like till till the new Year.

So that's, you know, I don't think that'll surprise anybody,

but I think it was a good place to end so.

Yeah, better, better than, you know, the Pharisees and teachers

of the law conspiring to bring Jesus down, you know.

And then Merry Christmas. Exactly right.

Yeah. So it it did.

It resolves it in a way that Jesus pushes against fear and

says, hey, like, don't, don't fear these bozos.

They don't know what they're doing anymore than like anybody

else does. Would you be OK if I called them

bozos yesterday? I would have.

Been OK, OK, cool. Just, you know, like just for

future reference, maybe, maybe that comes up and yeah.

Yeah, great. Then he says, I'll tell you who

should. You should really fear.

Fear this guy who after you've died like can throw you into

hell. And they said, but do not be

afraid. I tell you, do not be afraid.

O it's this great logical sort of March, like, hey, don't fear

these guys. If you want to be afraid, I'll

tell you who you should fear. But guess what, that doesn't

even cause you fear follower of Jesus.

Yeah. So what Jesus says is if you're

not. So it was.

That was a great logical March. But it does lead into one of the

questions that we received from someone who was here on Sunday

and. Questions that we had.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

So you mentioned in the sermon, and I think this is where we'll

start, that that person, you know, who Jesus points toward

and says, I'll tell you who you should fear throughout church

history has shifted a little bit.

O you mentioned early church history often thought that

person to be Satan. Modern sort of later modern

church history considers that person to be God.

And I, I, you can see reading both of those like you, I can

understand how a group of people would assume that Satan.

I can also see how a group of people would assume that's God

creates different challenges for the implication of that passage.

Yeah. So one of the questions is, and

hey, I'm curious just to talk a little bit more about that

tension. And, you know, how do we

understand, how do you come to understand that that person

Jesus is speaking about to be Satan?

So that's one. And then two, if it is Satan,

and here was the question that that we we received is, alright,

let's talk a little bit about authority then.

And does Satan have authority to do what Jesus is saying?

Who's Jesus speaking to? Is this like, what we don't want

is for people to still be living in perpetual fear of ohhh, like

I could do all the right things and like think I'm a Christian

for my entire life and then die and find out Satan just got me.

Like what? What's going on with that?

So how do we push against fear today?

So, so I think the first, the first thing to say is maybe even

before that, but even before the first thing is that like, yeah,

this is this is complicated. Christians don't agree on the

specifics of this matter and that's why it's great to have

these conversations, right. So first and foremost that

secondly, I think it's worth it's worth saying, and I didn't

say this yesterday because it just it maybe it was, maybe it

was clear in my mind, but maybe maybe you know, it raises

questions for believers is, is that like when, when Jesus says

I will show him, show you whom you should fear, fear him who

after your body has been killed has authority to throw you into

hell. I'm like that the question of

who Jesus might be saying that to comes up right.

Is he saying that to followers of Jesus?

Is he saying that to the Pharisees?

Is he saying that to just the general group of people?

And, and so I think it's worth saying this is not directed to a

follower of Jesus who you're, you're living your life, you

know, just working toward following Jesus with all that

you have. Like I, I don't think that there

should ever be a surprise, you know, like that it was someone,

someone dies and they thought they, you know, followed Jesus

and they've lived their life for him in, in, in the ways that we

know how and that they would be like, Oh yeah, just kidding.

You know, like, no, absolutely not, right.

Like I think that that is for me, that's clear that this is

not referring to the people who are committed to the things of

the Kingdom of God, that it is that, but rather this is a hinge

point in, in the Gospel of Luke here, right?

This is a hinge point for, for people where Jesus is sort of

saying like, Hey, everyone here, there are thousands of you here,

some of you Pharisees, some of you are skeptics, some of you

are, some of you have been following me.

He's and he's sort of giving a, a call out to them saying like,

Hey, let's, let's make sure we understand the stakes here.

Let's make sure we understand what is really what's really at

play here. And he's saying, don't fear

those who can just just just just destroy the body, fear the

one who can do more. Right?

So like that is, is my mind like the first thing we need to be

very, very clear on that Jesus is sending this message out to

thousands of people saying like, Hey, I want to draw you in

alignment with me. Here's the here's the the

potential damning implication if you don't.

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, so I, I look at, I look at Job, for example, and there's

this interaction between God and Satan.

Whole bunch of angels show up in front of God.

Satan's there. Super weird.

Yeah, Yeah. So Earth and entire series of

podcasts on its own, Yeah. But you know, God asked Satan,

like, where have you been? And Satan's response is he's

like, I've just, I've just returned, he says, from roaming

throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.

And then essentially what happens?

So there there's this conversation where God asks,

like, have you considered my servant Job?

And basically what, what Satan is trying to get at is listen,

like Joe, does Job fear God? Like does Job serve honor you

because he has all good things? Or is it really something that's

going on inside of his heart and mind?

Like has he been transformed? And so this kind of back and

forth and like you say, Satan says, like, listen, have you

put, have you not put a hedge around him and his entire

household and like family and things like you've protected

him, Like why wouldn't he fear you?

Why wouldn't he serve you? And so Satan's given authority

there to then go ultimately what happens is is he says, like,

give me authority to start putting this guy through the

ringer and let's see what really happens.

And so Joe was this person who like Satan takes him all the way

to the brink of death. And that's the interesting line

that I see there. Like So what, what what God says

to Satan. So in in 12 chapter 1 of 12

verse 12 rather of chapter 1 in Job, the Lord says to say very

well then everything he has is in your power, but on the man

himself do not lay a finger. It's interesting.

Right, which is just so, so, so I like, I, I hear what you're

saying is like Jesus is speaking to many, many, many people.

And in part, I think what he is, he's trying to warn them.

Like don't be afraid, don't live in fear of of these guys who

have control over your bodies and only your bodies who are

trying to, who are trying to exert control over your bodies

and what you like, how you gain righteousness or not, who is in,

who is out, all like very human things.

Fear. Fear one who has more authority

over the things that are spiritual and not just physical,

Um. Still gets at the struggle

though. Of of what and what, What kind

of authority? How much authority Satan as a,

as a, an entity has, right? Because I think that some

people, you know, and there's lots of camps on on different

ends of this perspective perspective that would offer

that, you know, Satan has no authority, right?

Yeah. Has no authority to do anything,

you know, of, of any kind in the spiritual realm and others who

would in some ways give Satan lots of authority.

And, and, you know, even, see, I, I was just thinking back to

like Luke chapter 4, where where Jesus and, and Satan are in, are

Luke 4 · chapter mention

in the wilderness and, and Satan seems to have a certain degree

of power and authority there that Jesus ultimately rejects.

And, and it may be a pseudo authority, but it is some

authority, you know, and Paul, Paul talks about the, the like

the powers of, of darkness, the dominion of darkness, right?

That that, he says, has ultimately been disarmed by the

work of the cross, but that there is still some power and

authority. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, like in Paul's powers and principalities, the the

thing that I always think to think back to, and this is just

because this is how my brain works.

Two things. One, you you can you can point

at a moment within World War 2 where the tides had turned and

where Hitler had died and where lost.

The Nazis had lost, but there was still there.

There was, there was. There was still death and

destruction to get to, you know, to get to Victor, like to get to

ultimate peace. Yeah, like the cessation of war

in that instance. So, you know, you can start to

picture an A thing, a military government, a country, like an

entity, a person existing in this state of having been

defeated, but still, like dealing out a lot of

destruction. Where my mind ultimately goes is

like you, this, this the last, uh, in, in the Lord of the

Rings, when, when Gandalf ultimately falls into the caves,

like down the Balrog, he, he's been thrown off the bridge and

is falling and with one, like dying breath, kind of whips U

and grabs them and drags them down.

And so I think of like, what I want people to know is that

scripture points us very clearly to Satan being defeated, but

existing in this, this state of already and not yet.

We know that the things of death still exist, Like the things of

death still have a hold on people.

The things of of, of evil still feel like they can run rampant.

They've been defeated, but they've not ultimately been like

there's we're still in that waiting period of that, that

final sort of last gasp, death sort of blow.

It can still do a lot of damage. Yeah.

And so that it still kind of raises the question of returns

to the, you know, the the passage in Luke 12 of OK, does

Satan have authority to send people to throw as the language

just throw people into hell, right.

And without getting into a whole discussion about the, the nature

of, of hell and, and all that kind of thing, like, I like just

at a surface level, whatever that looks like, does Satan have

that authority? And that, that kind of is the

crux of whether it's Satan or God, right?

Hmm, I don't know. So I say no categorically OK,

and I but I think it does depend on, it depends on a few things

going on here, for me anyways. And because again, I can see

reading both of these things, uh, I, I think if so, does Satan

have the authority to throw you into hell as it would be thought

of as like eternal damnation, final judgment?

No, no, no, absolutely not. Is Jesus, Is Jesus talking about

that final judgment here? There's some.

Says Gahanna. Is that ultimately what he's

referring to? Is he making an eschatological

claim about our our eternal permanent fate and destiny?

That's that's a good. Question.

And that's there's some, yeah, there's some, some I think

difference of opinion there, right, based on how people

historically have interpreted the passage.

So that's, that's part of it. It just does depend on whether

or not this is a passage that speaking to that I do though go

to. So my Bible pushes us to Hebrews

10 and Hebrews 1031 where, where it says, um, and I just want to

read this so I don't misquote it.

Um, so it's in the broader conversation, uh, but in 30 it

says for we know him who said it is mine to avenge.

I will repay, and again the Lord will judge his people.

It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living

God. So.

We're dreadful. It's it's intense.

Like fearful, right? Like so, so this like what the

editors of my Bible want us to start to see is that if, if

Jesus is Jesus might be pointing to himself ultimately as the

like the the judge who has authority over heaven and earth

to rule and to discern and to judge and to separate righteous

and unrighteous right to use like revelation, like wheat and

chaff. And the what I ultimately

though, what I think we you wanted, would you want people to

hear? And I think what I want people

to hear is here's the here's the logical flow to what Jesus is

saying. You think that you should fear

these guys? Don't fear them.

They don't. They don't know what they're

doing. I'll tell you who you should

really fear. Regardless of who that person

is, we should really fear that person.

But Jesus is saying do not be afraid.

I I actually like. I wonder if it has equal or more

power if it is God that Jesus is referring to.

You're saying be afraid, be afraid, Don't be afraid.

Yeah, he's what he's saying is don't fear these guys.

I'll tell you who you should be afraid of.

You should be afraid of me, me being Jesus, not me.

But I'm the one who's telling you to to not be afraid, right?

So if I'm the only one that you really should be afraid of, and

I'm the very person who's telling you do not be afraid.

That's got some power to it as well.

So I actually don't think it matters where you land.

That was what I was. Going to say on who this

individual. Is you can get bent out of shape

over over the specifics of it because I think they're there.

Obviously there's an intensity to, to the way that Jesus is, is

talking here that can feel confrontational.

And, and it can feel, at least for me, when I read, I'm like,

man, I like, I, I don't relish the thought of preaching on

that. And yet I did right.

And, and so, yeah, I, I think, I think I'm with you though, like

that, that I think that at the end it doesn't matter.

And I think you could also parse the language even to say when it

talks about authority to throw you into how you could make you

could make an argument that if it was so, if it were Satan, you

could make an argument that it's like, OK, maybe maybe not the

actual act of of like ultimate judgment, but that sort of like

the Satan tripping you up to a point that that you have gotten,

you know, gotten to that place. Or even that that's like, that's

his domain, right? Like that, that's ultimately his

like that's he that's the place he's gonna get.

He's gonna get tossed into. Yeah, right.

He'll be thrown there. So, you know, yeah, I, I think

anywhere where we want people to land, though, is regardless of

who you think that who you read that person to be, what Jesus is

saying very clear. It is either either it's Satan

and Jesus has authority over Satan.

Yeah. So don't be afraid.

Yeah. Or it's God and Jesus is saying

I'm the only person you should be afraid of.

Don't be afraid. Yeah.

So that's the point. The point is the landing places.

Don't be afraid. So I think, I think it's I think

that's ultimately a a really good word.

Like that's that's, that's the gospel kind of punching through.

Yeah. So let's let's shift that in a

little bit. Let's talk about so you know, if

we're if we're not gonna if we're not gonna be gonna be

afraid if we are going to choose to live alright, we're we're

pushing in this good direction. You started challenging us

really I thoughtfully around what it means to live an

integrated life then and so OK, we're all in.

We're not going to be afraid. We're living life in alignment

with Jesus. And, you know, we know that that

the devil wants to trip us up and wants to challenge and cause

fear to kind of creep in and wants to pull apart little

pieces of life. Like, you know, challenging in

this area is keep that to the side.

Keep your faith over here. Like you pointed us ultimately

to what it looks like, what it can look like to live a

disintegrated life. Or I think the language you used

was, you know, everybody has had a moment in their life where

they feel like it's all crumbling, like where it's

falling apart. How do we start, uh, without

kind of falling back to that fear place of well, like, is it,

is it Jesus? Is it Satan?

Is it the devil? Like who's gonna like who's

coming after me? Like should I be afraid?

Who should I fear? Like without going down that

again for each of us, like for each of us and not dwell on the

fear piece. How do we start to live an

integrated life? Where does it come from?

One of the questions that we received, again, was like, how

much of this is on us and how much of it is on Jesus?

Yeah. And I think the kind of language

behind that could be like, how much of this is, is just stuff

that we need God to do in our hearts and our minds, our lives,

our bodies, our souls. How much of it do we need to

claim then and live into? Hmm.

But also what's our responsibility?

Because it's not just out there. Yeah, right.

Like we need to own it. Part of what it means to live an

integrated life is that we are living into it.

So tell us a little bit more about that.

Like integrated life, What does that look like?

How do we get? It, I mean, in some ways like

the, the question of of, you know, how much is on us, how

much is, how much is Jesus? I mean, that's sort of like

that's the Christian life in a nutshell of like, you know, how

much is how much is grace? How much is how much what's my

role to play? You know, like and and you can.

How much did God choose me and how much did I choose?

God yeah, yeah, yeah, like these are like the the constant

rhythms and tensions that we run into all the time yeah, but, but

I think first and foremost like let's look like let's just look

at Jesus like I think that's like the best place to start is

like just the. The integrated life of Jesus,

his life all the way to his death, right.

And, and I think even just noting that Jesus's work at the

cross and, and then, and there is a record in the resurrection

that in and of itself accomplishes something toward an

integrated life, right? That, that when we, when we

think about Jesus mending what has been broken in us in me,

that that work happened at the cross.

And, and so that in and of itself draws us toward

integration, right? And, and I think that another, I

mean, another word you could use that that Christians have used a

lot is, is, is wholeness, right? Where what was broken is made

whole. And, and so you could say that

that that is the work that happens at the cross.

Yeah. But we also see it in the life

of Jesus too. We see, we see Jesus live in

this way where his full integrated self is on display.

All of the emotions, all of the compassion, all of the, even the

anger that we see at the beginning of this passage

toward, toward the Pharisees and the scribes.

And, and you see, you see all of this, all of this in Jesus and

Jesus is like, bring all of it to me.

You know, like I, I love the, you know, the, the passage in

you know, where, where Jesus is like, you know, come to me, all

you who are weary and I will give you rest like I, I am your

Good Shepherd. I am the one who will bring

like, just comfort to your soul, right?

Like there's like Jesus is saying, bring all of you, bring

all of like, and that that is the integrated life in nutshell,

is like we bring all of ourselves, all of ourselves

before God and say God, like, just bring it over to you.

We like submit it to your will and your care.

I'm not gonna withhold any part of me.

And that's like, that's easier said than done.

Like they're yeah, there, there are like so many parts of my

life that sometimes I'm like, God, I don't wanna, I don't

wanna talk about that with you because because I know that

you're gonna convict me of it. I know that you're gonna and

that is that is the disintegrated life.

That is the broken life, right? Where where there are parts of

ourselves that were like, I'm going to just withhold back this

little part of me because it feels safe.

I like it. I like how it makes me feel.

Yeah. I'm just gonna ignore the fact

that that my, my Christianity would have something to say

about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So a very, very obvious one, I think is someone who, someone

who makes and maybe even who would articulate it this way,

someone who, quote, needs to make unethical decisions at work

to be successful at work, right. When they know and feel and

wrestle out inside of them that their Christianity, that Jesus

would have something to say about it.

Yeah, but Jesus would have something to say about the way

in which you are compartmentalizing to the point

where you're making decisions that you know are counter Christ

or Gospel or Kingdom, but you quote maybe need to make them in

order to survive at work kind of thing.

So it's it's that level of like you think compartmentalize.

I think everybody can picture that type of maybe scenario, but

I think we all do it in little ways every single day.

I heard one writer said like, like, what what do you use to

justify your sin? Like what logic, what what

words, what reassurance, What excuses do you use to justify

your sin as it was, we're all broken or well, we're all

sinners or, you know, I experienced this.

And so therefore this is an outpouring of that.

And it's well, OK, but maybe that means that God's not gotten

that that piece. Then if it is I, I see it like I

I see. So the language that I've found

helpful is inside and outside. Integrated life is where your

insides and outsides match. I think you said something very

similar to that on Sunday. Disintegrated life is where your

insides and outsides don't match.

Yeah. And it could be that your

outsides look fantastic and inside you're really wrestling

with some stuff. Could be that your insides are

really wrestling with some stuff in a good positive way and then

you're making terrible just like you're making terrible decisions

on the outside like. Almost almost like you're like

someone has like really good intentions but still end up

doing like terrible things. Yeah, or no knows the right.

Thing and still. Does the because of, you know,

other things so, so it can go both ways, but it's like those,

you know, the mismatch of like your insides and your outsides.

Mismatch is a good word like that, that I, you know,

sometimes my, my desires and motivation motivations are just

mismatched from what, from what I ultimately really want, right?

From what I know is good for my, my soul, right?

It is something as simple as like, you know, like I know that

if I go for a walk more regularly, which I have been in

the habit of doing, I'm like, I feel better.

Yeah. You know, I can't always do a

lot of, like, physical activity. I know.

I know it'll help me feel better.

I know you know you can know all the things, but if you like,

this is the disintegrated part of my life that I don't always

do it. Right.

Yeah, and like, knowledge doesn't always lead to life

transformation. As we see in the Pharisees and

Scribes, right, they knew a lot. They knew.

And they do a lot. And they do a.

Lot, but it's mismatch on what is going on inside them.

Yeah. So that's the disintegration

piece. So, so when I think about like,

yes, like the, the work that Jesus has done, so he's, he's,

he, he lived a life and an integrated life.

Yeah, he, he died an integrated death.

He was resurrected and, and, and then and then empowers and sends

the Holy Spirit to his believers, which is the ongoing

work, the sanctification through the spirit of of living, I think

an integrated life, right? That that is that is the aim I

think of of a mature follower of Jesus is that yeah, their

insides match their outsides and their outsides match their

insides, right. And, and, and so there is, there

is the ongoing work of sanctification and this, this

Bible, the Bible often kind of plays with that a little bit

where you see, I think it's in the end of first that's Leonians

where, where God, where, where the writer says that God's

Spirit will sanctify you. That is the work of the Spirit

that is sanctifying you and, and, and making you holy and

integrating you. And so there's this sense in

which that is the work of the Holy Spirit to refine and to

grow as a mature us. But there is obviously still the

work that we need to do as well, right?

And, and so it is, I think it is, it is one of those things

where it's like, it's gotta be both.

It is, this is a, this is a partnership.

It's an it's an unequal partnership because it's a

partnership with the living God, but it is a partnership, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this for me is where like

when I look, when I look at this question.

So how much of it is God? All of it, Yes.

How much of it is me also in some way, but lesser?

All of it. Yeah.

Like you can come to this so backwards, which the Pharisees

do, which is if you just do all of the things in the right way,

all of the time, every time, then maybe, just maybe, you

know, you'll make it. That's the wrong way to do this.

That's not, that's not what what Jesus is saying.

That's not what we're saying. At the end of the day, we need

God to do the the heart transformation work like no one

else can. And that's because of Jesus

death and resurrection on the cross, like Jesus defeated sin

and death and he needs to defeat sin and death in me and in you

and in you listener, like Jesus needs to do that work.

You can't do it on your own. You know you can't.

It's it's like you can't dig your way out of the, the whole

of sin and death. So more is not gonna make you

better. Yeah, it's it's not a quantity

thing. It's a quality thing.

Jesus needs to do that work, but it also in a it also demands

everything of you. Yeah, because it it demands that

you surrender everything and let go of everything and actually

move away from all the things. Yeah.

So for me that it becomes a place of prayer ultimately,

right is how do you wrestle it out?

So I look at Psalm some 8610. It's uh, so so 10/11/12 but let

me just read versus verse 10 and 11 O the the writer says, for

you are great and do marvelous deeds.

You alone are God. So I go, yeah, all in teach me

your ways, Lord that I'm that I may rely on your faithfulness

and like not my own. And then he says give me an

undivided heart that I may fear your name and that right there,

like the the prayer for like God, would you just give me an

undivided heart? I think that's where

integration. Like what?

A prayer. Yeah, like, so pull all of me

together. Yeah.

And then do what you need to do. Like I'm gonna rely on you and

your faithfulness and your work. What is your responsibility,

Listener? Pray that prayer.

Teach me your ways that I may rely on your faithfulness.

Give me an undivided heart so that I can feel your name.

And there are also so many incredible resources, frameworks

for this sort of thing, right, and and too many to name, you

know, like as a staff right now, we are working through it's not

a new book, but it's a great one is the emotionally healthy

spirituality by Pete Scazzero. Just a great guy who who really

would say I was living in disintegrated life.

I was living a life that was not integrated with the things of

God. My my pastoral life was do was

almost a separate thing from my personal like like so dude, that

did the work in many ways, the hard work that, that you know,

the of, of seeking God for an undivided heart, right.

So, like that's just one example among so many, you know, people

like Dallas Willard are are, you know, are great thinkers in that

way. John Mark Comer, Some of these

guys are doing a great work. There's I think, like Ruth Haley

Barton is does a lot of good writing on on this sort of

stuff, right. So just to throw a female author

in there as well, There's, there's so, so many.

We are like, we are spoiled for resources on, on this particular

subject. But all that is to say is like,

yeah, there, there are some great ways to be thinking about

this just from the life of Jesus and also the ways that people

have thought for centuries about, about all this stuff too.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I want to shift now into and ask to kind of practical church

level questions and and maybe individual questions as well.

But the first is just to jump on that continuation of the

Pharisees. So you had a line, and I'm not

going to build a quote you verbatim, but it's essentially

is that same line that the Pharisees were really living out

this legalism that said, if you do all the right things all the

time in the right way, every time, you know, maybe, maybe

you'll make it. And for the Pharisees, it was it

was like it was this collective longing.

They longed for Israel to be restored and made whole again

and for the Messiah to come. And they believe that they had a

a role in that happening. Like let's not forget that that

these are people who had good longings for their people, but

it came out sideways in that like, if we all, if we can all

just figure out the equation, then we will be good enough and

God will honor that, right? And I still think we do this

today. Oh, absolutely.

So like, let's talk a little bit about how we might fall into

that same trap because I think for the Christian, it's easy to

say, well, it's like it's all grace, like 100% not my works

and what I do. But then we turn around and we

still live like the Pharisees trying to earn from God

something that is a gift. And man, like that sounds

exhausting. So exhausting.

Yeah, I I wonder if like as a church too, though, like as, as

a church. I'm trying to think about like

the ways in which, you know, the Big Sea Church, but also even

for us in our little corner of the world and with the ways in

which we we do this. This isn't something that I

think is, is like a every week sort of situation, But I, I do

wonder, like you can kind of teeter into this.

Like if we just, if we just plan out the perfect service, the

right, you know, with all the right things, the right

atmosphere, the right, the exact right songs, the, you know, the,

the preachers gonna say just the right words and just the right

way. And then God is going to show up

in like this, like cloud, you know, like, like there is,

there's something there, there's something there that I, you

know, I wrestle with, you know, as we, as we plan out services,

right? Like in what ways are we trying

to like, manipulate God to show up in a particular way?

Yeah. Like if we sing this, these

songs in this order, yeah, then maybe, yeah.

Yeah, and it's not to say like we, we shouldn't be thoughtful

about the way we plan out things.

Like we absolutely should. You know, like I, you know, in

our service yesterday, we had, you know, like as I was chatting

with the, the musicians and worship leaders for the week, I,

you know, I said, hey, here's this is a great list of songs.

Can we do this one at the end? Because it matches really well

as a responsive song to where I'm landing, right.

Like that's just, that's good common sense and and it's a good

way of just like stewarding the, you know, the the songs that we

have in our in our community. But but you can take these these

things too far right to to try to make God do you know, bend

God to your will rather than the other way around.

Yeah, yeah. I so I think a good indication

of, um, whether you are trying to earn something that can only

be given or whether you are living out of a place, having

received what can only be given because that's going to change

the way you live, right? Is going to change the things

that you do is whether or not you still fear that middleman to

take us back to the beginning. So don't fear these guys here.

So you really should fear. I think for those of us who get

stuck fearing, be that Satan or be that God, what we are

ultimately going to do is when we're stuck in fear, we are

going to try to control as much as we can around us.

And we're going to try to control the outsides.

Because inside we're like, well, I'm afraid and I know what's

going on inside of me. And, you know, I've got to make

sure that I'm not being overly tempted by Satan or I've got to

make sure that I am doing the things that Jesus requires of me

to do. So you start focusing on these

external things. Yeah.

Because inside you're still fearing that middleman.

And so I, I would like, I think I would challenge people to, to

think through the moments in your life where you act out of

fear are probably not emotionally, spiritually healthy

moments. Yeah, all the time or, or even

most of the time, maybe even all the time.

So getting to that place where where where we're able to hear

Jesus say do not be afraid, that I think is what allows us then

to receive because if we're not afraid.

Then I don't need to earn because I don't need to be

afraid that I might not earn it. I can receive because it has

nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with

Jesus. And I'm not afraid of my

failures or shortfalls or it's things that might, I think get

in the way of what God is doing. So I think that's a, that's a

good measure of of where you are.

I think another another facet is like church community Christians

in general. Like what is the depth of our?

What is the depth of our ability to just be be vulnerable and,

and just transparent with one another?

Yeah, right. How easy is it to just put on

this, this veneer, this, you know, like the almost in many

ways, the things that the, that Jesus is critiquing the

Pharisees and experts of the law for it is about this

superficiality to their faith, this outward religiosity.

And man, we are so culpable of, of putting on the veneer that

our life is in order. And really inside we're falling

apart. Yeah.

And, and all of a sudden, like, like there are, there are

stories I'm sure both of us could, could share if we weren't

breaching confidentiality. So I'm gonna speak more in

generalities of like, just, you know, all of a sudden someone

comes in, in your office and they like, they drop a bomb on

you of like of some life shattering thing that they've,

that they've done or has happened in their world.

And it's like, well, how did we get here?

Usually you're going to go back and it's going to be like, well,

yeah. I never really felt like I could

be transparent, honest with the people around me.

And so I just kind of shoved all this inside until one day my

life blew. Up.

Yeah, that's why. So like there is there is a

goodness to confession. Yeah.

And like children of the Reformation, sometimes we can

throw everything out. But like, why do we still have a

prayer of confession within our worship service is for these

moments, right? Like it is to remind ourselves

there's there's goodness in speaking the things going on

inside of us. Not to everybody in anybody, but

certainly to trusted individuals and to those who need to know

right. Like, these are hard

conversations to have. O yeah, absolutely.

Like is, is there, is there a thing that you're like holding

back? You're just not like, nobody's

gonna find out about this thing. Nobody's going to know.

That's probably something that like guys wanting to wrestle out

and challenge you on. Absolutely.

So that'll be one. OK, the I don't know if it's the

flip side of that, but if we can wrestle all of this out in our

own lives, we can want our own lives externally to look

perfect. We can also add, as the

Pharisees have done, extra burden on others to do the same

in their lives. So I think what, what ends up

happening, I think often in, in communities, but also just in

lives and relationships is the less you're willing to deal with

your own stuff, the more then you also punt that onto other

people and either become hyper fixated about everybody else's

sin or, um, you add extra burden on their lives because you're

really trying to wrestle out what you need to in your life.

So I think we also you had you had a great line like where

you're talking about the Pharisees and the scribes, the

experts and the law who are who are there, who have is it?

Is it? It's not lawyers, is it?

Um, but the, the these guys who say like you offended us also.

So, and you're like, yeah, just like I haven't even started on

you guys yet. So, so maybe his critique to

them is you heap heavy burden on others.

You're not yourself willing to shoulder the load.

As a last point, how do we do that still too?

Like, yeah, what are some ways that we maybe.

So I'm thinking and, and especially like is this is

tricky in a church context, which is like so driven.

It's yes, it's driven by staff, it's driven, but it's also

driven by, by leaders and volunteers and lay people who

are, are stepping up to the plate to make this community

happen. And, and, and there are some

churches that do this better than others because I've heard

some disaster stories from, from people where, where they're like

all this. And I'm not saying this about

our church. Maybe that's been true at some

points, but where there were people saying, like all this

church is doing is just telling me to, to serve here and do this

and do more, do more and do more.

Like, like, and to the point where they're they're getting

burnt out cause they're trying to do their job and have their

family life and trying to volunteer in their church and do

and, and in like 5 different areas, right?

And, and like that's, that's a problem, right?

That's a, that's a problem for 4 churches, right?

And so I think that like, it is something that I feel deeply

that I, I don't want to place that sort of those sort of undue

burdens, just stuff like burdens of life, like on someone in a

way that is going to detrimentally affect their life,

right? Like that's not OK, right?

And, and sometimes we can spiritualize it in a way that,

hey, if you're not doing this, there's, you know, there's

something wrong with your, your faith and your, and like, that

can be like manipulative and, and gross.

And so like, I, I want to avoid that like the plague.

And so like, that's one way I think that there is a tension

that we run as a church community to put too much on the

people in a way that is going to, to hinder their lives and

their livelihood. And they're, and they're just,

they're flourishing in their faith, right?

That's, I mean, that's, that's something that I'm, I wrestle

with all the time when I ask something of a volunteer.

And it's actually super refreshing when they'll come to

me and say, Hey, you could ask me to do four.

And I'm like, Oh, this is good, because I don't want to put that

on you, you know, but if you're but if your game like fantastic,

this is I'm, I'm so grateful. But I, I, I think that from a

spiritual, even from a, from a preaching perspective, there is

also attention we run of going through a message even like

this. And this is where, you know,

where where I landed in the end was saying like, this is not a

message about saying do better, because then we're doing the

exact same thing that the Pharisees and scribes are doing,

where it's just this constant, just do more, do better.

Don't do that, Do this, where it becomes this moralism that is

devoid. I see this moralism that's

devoid of Jesus, this devoid of grace.

And and and so like, that cannot be where we land each and every

Sunday with, you know, just with respect to stewarding the the

words of Scripture. We got to do that.

Well, I'm gonna do that. Well, yeah.

Which like I think is a great place to end.

Also, one of our cameras is shut down.

So you know what, if you're watching, sorry, you've seen

Justin since the camera died, which is great.

You don't have to look at me which.

I was hoping if it was one died, it was gonna be the one I'm.

Just hoping that that one also doesn't.

That's all right. Here, like I think that's a

profound place to end, which is like the the gospel does demand

something of you, yeah. But what it doesn't demand is

test doing more. It is requiring of you to be and

to specifically be with Jesus differently than simply just

doing more things. Yeah.

So for you to land us there, I thought was just perfect.

And going into Advent and going into the Christmas season, like

what do we want for our people is exactly.

That so like, yeah, this week, you know, little sneak sneak

preview, we are doing like a a week of pre advent lead in

right. And and so you're going to take

us through a couple of passages and and help us to almost

unburdened some of the burdens that we carry with going into

the business of of Christmas and and advents and and just helping

us to focus on the most important things.

And like I'm I'm looking forward to that because I know my soul

needs that and I am sure I am not alone.

So yeah, great place to to close this out.

As always, we hope that this has been helpful for you.

And and even just as we're talking here, like like you can

clearly see not all of this is like resolved right?

There is there are some things we're still walking with being

like this is still like attention in this passage that

we're wrestling out. People have been wrestling these

things out for centuries. That's OK.

We're not gonna solve it all in a 45 minute, 50 minute podcast

and that's OK. But we hope this is helpful as

you are discussing things with your family, with your friends,

with people from the church, or even just wrestling through

internally. And if you do have questions,

you can send them to questions at courtrightchurch.org.

And we'll do our best to integrate, to use the word of

the day into, into our discussions when we when we do

these. So hope you have a great week

and we'll see you next time.