Podcast: Advent 4

I had no Gray when I went into ministry.

I mean, that's every. Yeah, my dad would say this.

My dad was. And my dad was older when he

went into ministry. My dad was like 3637 when he

went into ministry and he did not have great.

So listen, I'm not saying. I'm not saying it's ministry,

but I'm also not not. Saying I'm not saying it's not

just like the with us, God instead of God with us.

We love that line from the devotion and it's it's not

actually a different sentiment. It really isn't like it's it's

the exact same thing, but reframing God is the with us.

God was very comforting. To me, some some people have

like, just like an ability to say the thing in a way that is

not it's not rocket science. No, it's not different words.

No, but it is weirdly like it's worded differently.

Yeah. And that I mean, he, he can do

that. Darrell can do that.

And so I've appreciated the devotion for that, I think

especially. When I think that God with us,

which is beautiful, it's a beautiful truth.

It's a very radical claim and it's but it's something one

we've heard a lot throughout our lives if you've grown up in

church, but it's also like, it's almost like a, it's intellectual

in some ways that God with us, right?

It's it, it takes on this. There's a distance from that by

saying he's the with us God by by making it present within this

moment. I don't know.

For me it took on new meaning in that.

Way. So here's how it changes the

meaning for me. So God with us still lands on

me? Sure.

Like God with me. Oh, it's about me.

Yeah, God with us is about us. Yeah, that's a really

interesting. Way of looking and the with us,

God puts all the attribute of who God is back on him.

Like it's back on God and on what God is doing and on the

action. Yeah, God's action toward

humanity as opposed to oh, this is just about me.

Like it's another way of me thinking about God with me.

Yes, it's oh, no, this is entirely still about what God is

doing the with us. God still speaks to human

condition and to me personally, absolutely, but in a way that

flips it away from, I think like the danger of becoming self

absorbed or more about me than it is about God.

So that's the that's the flip for me.

It's like, Oh yeah, OK, this is still all about God.

Yeah. Well, and then like again,

making the verb right, kind of the beginning.

It just, I think sometimes we take for granted what it must

have meant for God to become human.

Hmm, like I, I don't know, things aren't hard or easy with

God, like not the same way it is for humans.

But I Can you imagine being the almighty of the universe, like

in heaven and all of your glory and be like, I'm going to become

a human? Like, that's exciting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it like?

I think CS Lewis has a quote about this where CS Lewis has a

quote about everything. So if.

Ever just say it is him and he? Probably.

It's probably safe. So I think he says it would be

like littering, like trying to become a Nat or like a slug or

something, right. We you cannot comprehend the the

move that that is and the, the self emptying and the surrender

and the giving up and the laying aside and the all of it.

This is my, you know, less than stellar attempt at a, at a

segue. Everything, everything that

Herod is not. Oh gosh.

Yeah, right. That's and that's the point of

the comparison. Is absolutely.

Everything that is awful about Herod Jesus is not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like all of the I, I think

so I, I'm sitting here last week preaching through some of

Herod's story and then this this past Sunday, listening to, to

your sermon on it and going, man, like, well, you know, you

hear these stories. And I think the danger for

Christians, the danger for people who grew up in the church

and like, I grew up in the church, like, me too.

Dad's a pastor. Me too.

Same. Yeah.

And, and I think I, I go, you hear people over and over again

wrestling out how to be, how to be like a disciple and how to be

like Jesus. And I go great things.

Yeah, yes, you're called to be a follower of Jesus.

What does that mean? One who becomes like Jesus?

Like that is true. But I read these passages like

like Harrods story and I go, man, we're so much more like

Herod than we want to admit in terms of our own insecurity and

how we act and react to threat and opposition and anything that

we think impinges or like infringes on who we are and the

life we've created and what we are entitled to or not.

And so I go, man, like we need to sit with Harrod for a little

bit and wrestle out longer than we're.

Willing to do it right and that's one of the things I think

I've said this in a sermon previously and it was not my

idea. In fact, I think it's in the

Bible, but we. It's a good place to.

Start, start like the word of God is a mirror and we find it

very easy to be like, how could I be like King David and the

good parts and how, how could God use me in ordinary persons?

Like if you're going to look at the Bible as a mirror, you have

to look at the Bible as a mirror for it.

Every character in the Bible. So how am I a mirror of Herod?

How am I Amir of Saul? How am I a mirror mirrored?

How am I mirrored in the scriptures of all the people?

I don't I want to pretend that I am not like or there's nothing

of that in me. I think that you don't have to

only look at the bad. They think there's, there's, I

think humanity is both beautiful and broken.

But I think that, yeah, we, we want to see themselves as Joseph

and Mary stepping into lives of obedience.

But like, yeah, great. And I, I, I hope that you can

take their story and find ways that you can step into obedience

in your own life. But are you also willing to look

at Herod and say, oh, I've I could definitely be like that?

Too. Yeah, but a hard thing to do.

So maybe a good place to start because I thought that you did

this really well at the beginning of your sermon, which

was name the difficult reality of the text.

Yeah. Right.

So from the very beginning. Hey, this is not gonna feel like

a Christmas sermon. Yeah.

At least it's not gonna feel like the, the what we want a

Christmas sermon to be and to feel like.

And you might not feel the things that you want to be

feeling on the other side of this at Christmas time.

Like if this is not a sentimental part of the story.

No. Well, we're in a Manger and

everyone's happy and there's a glowing star over top and all is

perfect and peaceful in the world.

It's not that at. All so you had, I think, a

brilliant line to help us get into that mindset, which was I'm

not gonna be able to quote you exactly, but something along the

lines of maybe the messiness is here to show us that that it's

part of and in fact, in many ways the reason for the very

event of Jesus's birth. Yeah, right.

Like if, if everything was happy sentiment and emotional,

whatever meaningless sort of good, yeah, then there'd be no

need for Jesus's birth and there'd be no need for God to

send a a deliverer. If like if, if the herods of

humanity and of us don't don't exist.

Like, yeah, this is the reason for for the entire story that

we're telling is because of the depth of brokenness.

So I thought you set it up really well.

But also named like, it's a really difficult thing to do to

sit with. How horrible many parts of

scripture can be and and are like so I know, and we don't

have to go down this this path too long, but like varying

commentators will say different things about like the number of

of kids, like the number of children, number of babies, like

what's what's happening here? The fact is like over and over

throughout herode entire life we see horrible things.

This. This.

This is so for they're hard to say.

I'm going to kill all the babies within this geographical region,

like within Bethlehem, who are born between A&B fits perfectly

within his character. Yes, And that's a hard thing to

reckon with. That's a hard thing to sit with

and go, hey, how could God allow for this to happen?

How do I see myself into it? Like just talking about, I know

part of me wants to identify with Herod if this is what Herod

does and if this is like, this is actually the least of the

awful things that he did, right? It's pretty low down on the on

the bar on the scale of like Herod things.

They're not. I mean, there's no, there's

actually no historical record of it happening.

And that, and a lot of people like that means it didn't

happen. It's like that's actually

doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means that as awful as it is,

that it's not as awful as the other things that he did.

So we don't focus on that, which just, I mean, it speaks to who

he is. But also, yeah, how incredibly

broken things have broken he is, how broken the world is, how

broken, how brokenness intersects with this story and,

and the birth of of Christ. So, OK for the listener then

who? Who's sitting here going, yeah,

I don't want any part of that God.

Right. So, or I mean, I think that's

that's an approach to Scripture. You read, you read some of the

things that happen throughout Scripture.

Yep. And I go, if that is who if, if

that is who God is, then I don't I don't wanna sit with that God

like great, good for you who do. I don't want anything to do with

him, Um, for that person. And I think for the for the

person who wants to believe, maybe it takes a different

approach to it and says, yeah, but man, I don't know what to do

with that. How do you start to sit with

those really difficult passages yourself?

So obviously like having to do it to preach is, is one thing,

right? And I think sometimes that's

even, I would argue like that can almost be easier.

At least I find it sometimes easier.

Have a part like, you know that you have to get to the end.

People, people who write sermons now, it's like it starts and

ends with Jesus. That's what you, that's what you

do. You point to who he was, what he

did on this earth and the cross. That tends to be a structure

that you put in so you you know where you always have to go when

you're writing a sermon, which is what makes it easier.

Easier. Easier.

So for the person who's out there going help me do that or

or who maybe doesn't even want to and doesn't know where to

start, like what would be one thing that you say to them?

About sitting with hard passages, um, wow, that's a

great question. What one thing would I say to

them? It sounds trite, but that the

Bible is showing. It's the story of God, but it's

showing the human condition. Yes, these stories are here and

they're hard, but you could find these stories anywhere in the

world that are happening day in and day out.

And how the Bible tells it, it's that suffering is not unseen

that got sea suffering, that God hate suffering, that God I I

don't think all suffering, I don't think all suffering is

purposed. I think all suffering can be is

a better way of saying it. And the Bible tells us a story

that, um, again, I don't believe that suffering has to have a

greater purpose, but that suffering can be redeemed.

That we have a God who sees, who will suffer with you, who Co

sufferers who understand suffering, was willing to become

a human to understand your condition or our condition or

the world's condition and chose to come and do that anyways, to

live that life so that he could save it.

And that it hasn't made everything well, but that there

will be a day when all is made. Well, yeah, yeah.

And I, and I'll admit, I, I'd be the first person to say, well,

that's not really comforting me right in this moment of my

suffering. It's not, but I think sometimes

we have to. We have to also remember there

is a, there's a greater story arc happening here and that that

humanity, it does get the choice to live on this earth with their

free will. And that that's hard and that's

messy. And that even in that God is

still intervening and doing miracles and working and, and

doing all of these things. And that's the hope of this

story is that I wrestle with this text because I see the

ultimate evil of this world that I hate.

And yet I still see a God who's willing to come close and redeem

it. And there is a lot of hope and

beauty in that. I I think, uh, one of the things

that would feel disingenuous about the Bible is if it didn't

have the, yeah, the deeply problematic, hard, hurtful

moments of humanity. Right.

Yeah, well, there's. No, there'd be no, I don't say

there's no purpose to God. There would be like, I think you

started the question this way is that Jesus Jesus came into this

world for a reason and he's coming back for a reason.

And that's, and that is to make all things new and right and,

and, and renewal and new creation and all of these

things. But that that narrative is woven

into Scripture from the beginning of Scripture because

it recognizes that humanity is not all that we should be, or

could be, or will one day be, right?

Yeah. So I like, I think that's the

one thing that I would say to someone is, you know, like we

all know how deeply hurtful and problematic like the human

experience can be. And it was like everybody has a,

a story or many, Yeah, of moments where both they have

been deeply wounded and have wounded others.

Yes. And so I think that it's hard to

sit with difficult passages. Yeah.

But I think what it does, and I think you've said this really

well, like it honors, it honors the the harm and the wounding

that each one of us has. Because then the question does

become, like you said, like where where do we see God moving

in the midst of this story? And where can we then begin to

hope for and trust and look and watch and wait for God to be at

work? Our story, Yeah.

And not that everything like OK, that story, it's about my story.

Like that's not, that's not what I'm.

Saying no, yeah, I think you could over universalize the

Bible, right? You gotta be careful about that.

Yeah, absolutely. But I think that to see to see

the deeply problematic things spoken about in Scripture and

then to know the deeply problematic things in my own

life, that that I, I hope over the long haul of someone's life

speaks more to the presence of God in the midst of it than the

absence of God. Because I think that's where

people go like they say, well, how could God allow something

like that to happen? Yeah.

And if God allowed something like that to happen, A, either

he doesn't exist or doesn't care or B, is is like unable to do

anything about it. So what?

What is God then, anyways? Right.

So I think it leads people down, doesn't exist or doesn't care,

doesn't care about me or won't do anything about it or can't do

anything about it. And, you know, I, I think what

what we see in this story is that God is active all the way

through, just not in the way, again, just like like we've been

saying over and over again, not in the way that we would expect

or even maybe want or hope for. It's like, well, couldn't that

just have not happened? Yeah.

So maybe helpful. You landed us closer toward like

a next step and and tying in obedience and Mary and Josephs

decision to go, but you did it in a really I thought a

different way and you said that this is going to be a different

like it's not just the obedience point, right, because we've done

that now for a couple weeks, but in a way that included them in

what God was doing. So let's talk about that for a

little bit as well, because I think that might be a helpful

framework for, I think for many people in different seasons of

life. But I think especially for

someone who's in the middle of one of those moments where like,

like, does God care? Like does God actually doing

something? What does God going to do?

Yeah. Danger becomes we just wait for

like, OK, God, like, I guess you have to sort this out for me.

Yeah. And then we become completely

passive. Yeah.

And that's not what we see of Mary and Joseph in the story.

So walk us through that. Specifically, the point that I'm

thinking of is Joseph being called to participate in God's

answer. I and this is this is the thing

that always and I don't it still surprises me.

So I have been a Christian for the majority of my life and have

studied the Bible. I always, it's like I always

forget that God places so much trust in humans to do the thing

that he's asking them to do. And you see it throughout the

scriptures. I'm always like, we have really,

God really does use people a lot.

He trusts us a lot, which is another.

And I think that's something goes back to the question we

just answered is, you know, how do you have hope in the middle

of the story? Is that.

Well, one is that God work. Well, God is at work and God is

is using humans in that work as well.

And I think there's something really beautiful in that.

But not to lose, not to lose. The question is that.

Yeah, I think there's this very interesting pattern of God

acting and speaking and working through humans to be part of a,

it's hard to say Co create a solution because the the Co

would not be equal like God. God is awfully sovereign and

moving, but God does not. He doesn't wave his hands.

He doesn't remove danger. What he asks is for people, he

There's two pieces of this. God really only guides one step

at a time. I think that we're always

looking for God to have show us the end.

And I will take a step of obedience when I can see the

end. And that is not how God works.

God calls us in into working with Him.

He calls us into doing things and taking action.

But we're not going to see the end.

And yet taking those individual single steps of obedience, us

being willing to act, I think is really important.

I think it's easy to get frustrated with the situation,

to put your hands up and say, hey, God, if you want to fix

this, you fix this. But I'm done that's not that

doesn't tend to be hot. God works throughout the

scriptures so hard for people who are waiting for that to be

like oh, I hate to break it to you not typically how God works.

But but it's also I mean think about what Joseph America to be

a part of by doing that like not only yes, they are they are

protected and they get to move forward.

But I mean they got to they got to raise God Incarnate on this

earth and I there was probably a ridiculous amount of pain that

came with that as well. And yet they got to be a huge

part of this beautiful story. 1 I think God trust them because

knows who he called to be in this, but he also gives them

moments to grow and to obey and to have agency over their lives

while still walking in step with him.

And there's something really beautiful about.

That does that answer the question?

Yeah, I think so. I so I hear this all the time

and it's like the simplest, silliest example of it.

But it's like it's like praying for God to make you more patient

and then being frustrated when you well-being frustrated when

you are put into or thrown into situations where you need to

practice patients. Like I thought.

I thought that we had. Figured out like, right, like

that's, that is how God works. And I think, I mean, there's a

whole lot of theological reason why I believe that it's to be.

But I think God, like you see God acting And so like God,

God's existence, God's being is a being in action.

Like God's existence is one that acts and continues to act

toward, toward the creation, toward, you know, you start

talking about different persons of the Trinity, but like God is

one who acts in his nature. And we are made in his image.

Exactly. And so like obedience too, I

think life with, I say life is obedience.

You know, some people can, I think, react to that, but.

Yeah, the words can be loaded a. Little bit, absolutely, but

life, like life with God, is life in action.

It is life that is becoming. And so there is a book that was

written a long, long time ago. That's the title is God's being

is becoming God's being in becoming.

OK, yeah. And and never right.

And so it's this like I think that for for the follower of

Jesus, life with Jesus is found on the road and it is found as

you go and as you take. And I like how you how you

framed it. One step, like a step of faith.

And I don't know, maybe this, I don't want to take it too far

without this, but I think people often think of God's will as

like a series of events. Yeah, I think it's more

complicated than that. God has a, I think, a

trajectory. I think there are things going

to happen. I think God is already in the

future, so he knows what's going to happen.

But I also think that part of God's will is making us more

like him. So it and it's how the the great

mysteries of how these two things align, how sure events

occur that he is or ordaining or, or sovereign over, but also

how are we participating and becoming the humanity that he is

Shay trying to shape. And how do these two things work

together? And I don't have the answer for

how that happens, but I think that when we focus on will, we

focus on outcome. And I think when we talk will,

will is not just about God's will is not just about an

outcome. God's will is also about how we

are formed in the journey of that.

So it's both. Pieces.

Yeah. So, OK, let's let's back up

then, because again, you had, I think one of your lines, I wrote

it down as, as you were preaching, one of your lines

talked about exactly that. And so the second question,

which is now the third question that I have, I suppose, is so

you had a line about Mary and Joseph being willing to put

their lives in God's hands. Yeah.

And I thought that was just a great way to to put it like they

they choose to do it and they don't have the end of the story

like they have. They have a pretty beautiful

declaration about who Jesus is and is.

Gonna Who's gonna become? And will be.

Yeah, absolutely. And and they, both Mary and

Joseph have their own unique responses.

And you see that like in Luke and Mary's song and her travel

to Elizabeth. And you see that in Joseph's

decision to name Jesus, Jesus and to do the thing that God has

said he ought to do. And so you see it unfold,

probably differently than many moments in our lives.

But like how? Talk for a little bit about how

you become willing or can practice willingness to put your

life into God's hands. Because it feels like to me

you're sounds like I think is the it's the exact opposite of

what we just talked about, which is when everything is going,

let's say sideways, either, you know, we pull back and say,

yeah, OK, this much, this, this much there.

This must say something about God, and so I'm going to

distance myself from that God or we say God, you must fix this

thing for me. Either way, I'm.

Out. I'm out, yeah.

Right. And that's not what we see with

Mary and Joseph. No.

They make a very specific decision toward obedience,

toward going toward living life on the road with God and then

with Jesus. How do you become willing to do

that? Is there a practice to it?

I mean, I think there's a there's a practice.

I don't know if willingness is a spiritual discipline.

It's certainly not an official one, but let's pretend that it

is a discipline of some kind. I don't know that you don't

think you're gonna magically wake up and be there tomorrow.

I think willingness. I would love to say that I am

great at doing everything God wants me to do and that I live

my life completely open handed, but I.

Think I would love to say that. Too, to say that I cannot say

that and the whole thing disingenuous, yeah.

But I do think there is a there is, it is a practice.

It is a now, I mean, Mary and Joseph, their story, obviously

their story is told within two chapters.

I'm sure it's a little more complicated than it was, but to

be honest, they kind of got the really big stuff out of the way

first in some regards. I think.

I don't even I, I don't know if I have a good answer to this

one. I wish I did.

I think part of it is grounding yourself in in the trust of God

and who he is. I think it's the practice of

taking small steps and then taking bigger steps and then

taking even bigger steps. I think it's recognizing, I

think that we can come into it. This fear that if I feel God

calling me once and I don't do it, he's never going to call me

again and I'm going to miss something.

I don't think that's true. I think God calls and calls and

calls and calls and calls and we that, you know, I, I remember

feeling this one time, it's a really, really small example,

but I felt I was really called to help someone do something and

I didn't do it because I got busy in time and stuff like

that. And time was, and then

afterwards I felt very compelled, like, oh man, I

missed an opportunity if something God was calling me to

do. And God did it again, like a few

weeks later was like, I'm not missing it this time.

So I think recognizing there's grace along the way, trying to

find the ways that God is calling you into doing

something, not not feeling shame when you miss an opportunity,

but saying next time I'm gonna be a little bit more open.

I think it's a posture of open handedness in whatever you want

to cling to in your life. And we all cling to different

things. There's there's every person's

thing of living in this world or their brokenness is different.

And I think the call to be more open handed it, it does

essentially what Mary and Joseph were doing.

They were living a life of open handedness in terms of their

trust and how they were going to live.

And for them it was, I mean, again, they took really big

steps in the beginning, but they were willing to take those

steps. Like I, I don't think it was

ever easy for Mary and Joseph to leave their homeland and their

stability. But at this point they've heard

from an Angel in a dream 345 times.

So I think at this point, it's like this is the story that like

God has been on this journey, We've seen him be faithful, He's

working through this thing. I don't think it was easy, but I

think that they were more in tune and aligned with where he

was going to be. Like, you know what?

We got to get up and trust because we've seen how this

things played out and and this is the next step in our journey.

And it it's interesting to me that so and I'm trying to find

passages for this and I'm I'm not doing a great job of it at

that in in real time here. But like the fear disappears

through Mary and Josephs life, like through those, those

things. So, so initially when the Angel

shows up, it there's fear that's named yeah.

And then eventually the Angel shows up and they're like, Oh

yeah. Well, and it's.

It's just kind of old hat now this happens.

I did think about that. Sorry, I almost got off.

But I thought about that because you think I don't know if it was

you or was Allison in one of your previous week sermons, you

said, you know, whenever an Angel shows up, they say do not

be afraid. I'm like, not actually true.

As they go along in the story, the angels don't have to say

don't be afraid anymore. They're like, we're here then,

yeah, this is what's next. And you.

And again, you don't see a wrestling, you don't see a

worry, you don't see fear, you see a OK, this is what we gotta

do. Yeah, Yeah.

And I, again, I don't think it was that simple, but it does

speak to this progression that it's about taking those, those

steps in the beginning, seeing God at work and being like, OK,

I can do this again. I can do this in a bigger way.

I can do this with this thing that I'm clinging to more.

So like I I I can do this. Yeah, I use this analogy

somewhat often and so like it. It probably lands flat for

people, but like I, I I ran at the height of when I was doing

long distance running. Yeah, I ran a 50 kilometer like

ultra marathon, which is like the babies of ultras.

Like there are there are people out there doing 200 miles like

like wildly in Yeah. So like this is not a anyways I.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

So, so at at the height, I did that and was not injured.

Yeah, the next day, yeah. And flash forward a few years,

got invited to go do a 12 1/2 kilometre race.

Great. And I said, yeah, I can do that

because I did that. I I did, I did the 50K50I can do

1200%. I was so hurt because I had

hardly run in between like those those intervening years.

Like we moved and like now three kids and all of them in school

and like. You're tired.

So much absolutely way more Gray hair.

No, so, so like I, I, I got hurt like I did after 12 kilometers.

And so like you have to flex the muscles, you have to exercise,

you have to do the thing. You have to continue to do the

thing. And it's not like I'm not saying

use it or lose it, like your faith is going to disappear or

that God is gonna like, absolutely not like God is going

to continue to call you. God is going to continue to lean

in. And but there I think there is

something to like flexing the muscles and exercising your

ability to to both hear God and then say yes to God and that

can't like you can't jump. So I think for many of us, you

go, OK, Angel Pierce, you're like, I'm Nope, absolutely or

even. Peace out.

Even just how they. So OK, the Angel appears toward

the end of the story. The Angel appears in a dream.

Yeah. So how many of us would just go,

well, that was a dream. I'm gonna dismiss that entirely.

But they'd practice like they had a history of saying yes to

God and then seeing the fruit of it, like seeing.

OK, we said yes to God and God responded.

And then we said yes to God again.

And God responded again and we said yes to.

And. And so they're building this

relationship with God. This is why we talk about a

relationship with Jesus. Like they're building trust

where God says be faithful, their faithful and they see.

His faithfulness. His faithfulness.

That's that's the key is yeah, the gratitude, the ability to

look back, the ability to see God's faithfulness in it and

being like OHK, OK, like, yeah, he it hasn't felt it in the

moments, but he has had me and he has held me and now I can do

this next thing. And but it doesn't happen over.

Like it doesn't happen instantly.

Oh yeah, absolutely. It takes so much time and here.

So here's the other thing that I want to say is it also happens

in community, which which Matthew largely leaves.

Out he does, Yeah, And sister is very individual.

I feel like that's worth saying. Yeah, that's a good point for

Mary. Jesus or an Angel shows up and

Mary immediately goes to be with Elizabeth.

She's like, help me figure this out.

Yeah. Right.

And and it's, it's presented in this really faithful, beautiful

way. But you can imagine Mary going

to this older woman in her life and saying, like, help me

understand this thing, like this has happened.

Help me navigate it and make sense of it.

And so we see it in community more so in Luke.

And so that's not to say, oh, like, what's the difference

here? Whatever, but.

I wonder if like Joseph was lonely at this time.

Yeah. Like this would have been a

really hard journey for like him and Mary.

Like, and I know that he had Mary, but, and I'm not saying

that he didn't have community around him that Matthew is not

trying to point that out or not to point that out, I don't

think. But I, I, I have often reflected

on Joseph in the story and wonder one the kind of man he

must have been for God to call him and, and how he cultivated

that and, and how he grew, how he was already, but how he had

to grow in this way. But also like, was this lonely?

Like, was this a lonely journey for him in some ways?

I I wanna know where he went. Like why is he not mentioned?

Yeah, after the temple incident. Yeah, right.

So he's with Mary when they lose Jesus and find him in the

temple. And then it's like, alright,

like does he die or is he just there hiding in the background

like what happened anyways? Sorry, that was a weird question

about like, but I yeah, it's the importance of community is that

I I hope that he had people to go to and yet this is also a

time and a place where. Yeah.

I and I and I wonder and again, like I, I hope that his faith

and trust in God was able to give him that that sense of

reassurance during this time. And obviously he saw some

amazing things, but the importance of community because

it's it's a hard journey to walk alone.

Absolutely. The last thing that I do think

we see for Joseph especially is Joseph described as being

faithful to the law like he was because he was faithful.

He didn't want to divorce Mary in a way that would, you know,

like he, he had it in mind to divorce her quietly.

So he's wrestling out. How do I be faithful to the law

that I know says one thing, but faithful to this person and

relationship that I know will end horribly?

Yeah. You know, if I go through with

this, like, is there a way of doing both of like holding the

tension together? Like he's really wrestling stuff

out? Yeah.

For. For a character who's largely

absent after, right, like I do think that there is there's

evidence in Joseph's life of him being faithful in everyday

small, say small, but in everyday less significant ways.

Yeah. So the fact that he's able to

recognize God speaking to him and saying, not only is God

saying something to him, but saying something to him, that

now he's got to think, oh, like, do I now be faithful to what I

think God has said to me, or do I be faithful the law which says

one thing at very different, like he's had to wrestle all

this out. Yeah.

So I think you do see evidence of his faithfulness in the

small, everyday things. Yes, absolutely.

And then it grows. And I do think you see evidence

of community for them as well, and hopefully for them both.

But I do think you see evidence of other people's influence in

their lives, in the difficulty and in the moment.

And so the the last I said last thing twice now, but the last

thing for I think for the person out there who is in the middle

of like a difficult season and also maybe feeling the

difficulty of wrestling with hard texts that aren't always

comforting and or at least peacefully comforting in a happy

make you feel OK about life kind of way.

In a different way. Like I wonder if we can kind of

if we can distill all of this into some just really practical

things. One I think I've heard you say

like, you're not going to get there overnight.

This is a a slow step by step faithful.

Like just focus on the next step journey so #1.

That's yes, I would say. Step by step.

Yes #1 is step by step and being willing.

It is both. It's both a comfort that you

only have to step one thing at a time, one take, one step at a

time. It's also can be really daunting

because you don't know when the next step is going to be or how

to build on that. But I would say yes, one step at

a time. So #2 I heard you say give

yourself grace. So you might take the step, you

might not take the step, You might take the step and be like,

oh, that wasn't it. That was the wrong.

One that was the wrong. One and God is still going to

lead you further yet like there is still more for.

You yeah, it's not a once. Some people are an all or

nothing kind of deal. And I would I would try to

discourage away from that. God is going to continue to give

you opportunity. He's going to continue to speak.

He is going to have Grace with you.

Be convicted or you need to be convicted.

Yeah, but also have grace on yourself.

Yeah, I think we're learning this slowly as a culture, even

like when we talk about mental health and like recovery not

being linear, those types of things.

Right. And your spiritual journey is

not not going to be linear. Absolutely not linear, not at

all. So step by step, have grace #3

get yourself into a community and be OK borrowing some grace

from other people. Yes, and borrowing some hope

from other people. Yeah.

Because I think that's there are going to be moments where you

just don't have it. Yeah.

And so if you don't have it on your own, that's a very

different reality then. Yeah, I don't have it and I need

to lean on somebody. Yeah, in this moment.

Yeah, I think, yeah. Being willing, finding a place

that you can be vulnerable and honest, even if it's one person

who can just speak into you and speak into your life.

And like you said, in in a way it's intercession, like be that

hope when you don't have any and allow them to be that for you.

And yeah. So any last thing that you want

wanted people to hear that didn't make it into the sermon

or that you're sitting with right now going, yeah, having

kind of worked our way back through it, this is what I want

people to hear. I, I don't know if I, I know, I

think I, I, I feel like we've touched on it.

I think the thing that I want people to to leave with is that

the Kingdom of God is here and it's at work.

Hmm. That's yeah.

But they, they, I, I really meant strongly and felt it

deeply that when we look around our world that it is, it can be

very hard. It can be a really hard world to

look at at times and can really hard to see the things that we

see. And it can be really hard to

trust that God is working in the midst of that.

And the one thing that I loved and that that I was reminded of

this this week, these two weeks I've been wrestling with this

text, is that God's work is not always overt.

It's not always fast. It's sometimes it's really quiet

in the background. And even in those quiet spaces,

they can be amazing time for preparation.

So whether it's a quiet moment in in your life and you're in a

sphere, a season of preparation, whether you need to trust that

there's preparation happening in other places.

Yeah. The Kingdom of God is alive and

well and at work, and it endures beyond the things that we see in

this world. Absolutely.

Great place to stop, which I think is the very beginning of

your sermon, which is to say those two points that you

started with. Hey, I want you to hear God is

present and God is at work. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you.

We hope that. You have a.

A great Christmas. This will be the last podcast

episode that you see until the new year.

So Lindsey, thanks for joining us. 2025.

Absolutely. Yeah, so we'll.

See you in the new Year and we are praying for you.

Yes, absolutely. Merry Christmas.