Podcast: How much is enough? (Luke 12:13-34)

Hey, friend, Welcome to another episode of the Sunday.

Sit down. And we hope that this episode

finds you having a good winter week.

Felt like winter disappeared for a few days and we got a whole

lot of rain and everything flooded and and then it all

froze and here we are with a parking lot full of ice.

So that was a fun morning. Yeah.

We hope that you're having a good start to your new year.

I don't know about you, Justin, or you who's listening, but my

wife and I were talking this week like, it's just felt like

2026 has started off by like a little bit punch you in the

teeth kind of way. And it's.

I don't know exactly why that is.

There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on in the

world, and it seems like everybody's sick and.

And the weather sucks, yeah. And it's like all the things

combined. I yeah, I, I feel that.

I feel that, yeah. Yeah.

But Happy New Year for whatever that is worth at this point, I

think this too far along. I don't think you can say Happy

New Year on the 12th of January anymore.

You know what it's we got a month, we got a month, we got

January. That's that's only one in 12 for

like the year you. Know, I did call 2026 a newborn

baby that's still wet behind the ears in the sermon.

Like if Tony 26 was a baby, it would still be wet behind it,

like, just fresh out. So it is the start of the new

year, Yeah. So and you started off we've

started back into Luke in our Sunday for Sunday worship.

We are. You kind of talked a little bit

about like, you know, you can do the calculations.

We're halfway through, yeah, this and, and you, we started

off back into Luke with like an exceptionally like challenging

passage. It's like their their passages.

Like I think the last time we were in Luke, which was I think

when I was preaching from the beginning of Luke 12 and the end

of Luke 11, it was like theologically challenging in

some ways, in a lot of ways, This one pretty pretty clear in

many ways. Like they, there's, there's

some, I think nuance of understanding, but man, like I

think just just challenge. This was challenging in a very

different way, convicting. I know for a lot of people I

know that, like my wife and I, last night, we're out on a walk

and like talking through things and it's like it's, it's, it's

just challenging to do the thing because it's about money and our

possessions and stuff. Which Which is exactly, I think,

just a name. It's exactly what I hope happens

after a challenging sermon, right?

So when like, it's good that it's good that things are

challenging, it's good that they're difficult.

It's good it's that it's hard to walk out and, and it's good that

you're feeling it because it means that you're really

actually wrestling with it. Like if we preached, if I, if I

got up there and I preached, you know, on the a passage exactly

like this, you know, difficult not to understand, but difficult

to actually live out. And then people like, well,

that's easy. That was a simple, you know,

simple thing, simple message. Like I, I would have felt like

I've failed. So I think it's good, like it's

good to feel it because honestly, I think that means

you're taking it seriously. So to anybody out there who's

also feeling it, be like walking away from that sermon.

Or, you know, you can go back and reread Luke 12 and we're

talking about, we're talking about not being anxious for the

things that you need, not even the things that you want, but

like food and clothing and shelter, like the actual real

need needs of life and just says don't be anxious about it.

Like your heavenly Father knows that you need them and he wants

to give you these things. So don't chase after them, chase

after the Kingdom and let me worry about the rest of it.

But it's like you said, it's, it's maybe easy to understand

the thing. It's a lot harder to actually

live it out. And that's what I was trying to

press into. When you know, when you when you

kind of unpack this parable of the land owner who's really

successful and then who makes, you know, he makes a whole lot

of money quote like I'm using air quotes here like money.

But he has a lot of material possessions in the day, mostly

food, right? And So what does he do?

He, you know, he thinks to himself, I'm going to knock down

the barns that I have. I'm going to build bigger barns

and I'm going to store away more.

I've been really successful. And I think the the danger of a

parable like that is that you like characterize this

individual and you make him out to be a villain.

You make him out to be well, you start to make assumptions.

He must have been profiting by being unethical.

He must be an evil person. He must be one who is harsh

toward his workers. He must be one who's profiting

on on the backs of of others. He must be profiting to the

degree that others are losing and suffering.

And Jesus offers none of that in the parable.

The hard part is that he's he just seems like a reasonable

guy. And we could, yeah, we could

make lots of assumptions that that Jesus doesn't give us.

But. But I think, yeah, if you go

with just, you know, Occam's razor, the most logical solution

here is that, yeah, he was just someone who's like, I've got too

much stuff. I need more stuff for my stuff.

Yeah. You know, and like that, that

tracks in our, in our, in in our world.

I feel like that is, you know, not an uncommon thing.

I I need you know, to make a do a renovation on my house so that

I can fit more or whatever, right?

Like. So you, I don't have a tablet or

phone with me here, but can you look something up?

So absolutely there is a stat that floats around on how much

storage there is. And I don't know, I can't

remember if it's in the States or if it's in North America, but

like how much storage space there is per like human being.

And it's kind of wild how we've created an entire industry to

store away things that we don't have space for in our house,

where we also store away things wherever that is, right?

Whether it's our, our house, whether it's an apartment or

the, you know, whatever place we're choosing to live at

whatever given time. In my mind, like those like

storage facilities, those are meant for like when I'm moving.

I, I, that's the only time I've ever used one.

I was moving. We had like a two months like

like period where we had stuff in, in a storage thing.

But people like, sometimes people like they have just

permanent residents, not like they're not living in them, but

like their, their stuff is permanently residing there.

Yeah. Like, and that's where you get

like those cheesy shows where they like, you know, just sell

off the sell all the stuff cause like they're in arrears and yeah

and yeah. You might not be able to find

it. You might be able to find it.

I think it is kind of wild to me how much industry is built

around even, yeah, storing up of things that we don't need, that

we've maybe even forgotten that we have.

I'm getting an AI overview that basically says and, and so I

take this with a grain of salt, but it might be relatively true

is that it's so around 6.3 square feet in the US per person

of storage. And that's like far and away

larger than any other part of the world.

Because if you even go to even go to like the, the UK, they

don't value space in the same way that that North Americans

tend to like the thought of having like, I have a finished

basement. The thought of like like having

a a hangout area or potentially even like a living area like

where someone would sleep in a basement is like often a foreign

concept. Even grass right?

Like the idea of of the lot distribution is different SO36

square feet. More than six square feet per

person. Yeah, yeah.

So like that's like take a step and then turn and take 1/2 step,

Hmm. In the, in the 90° angle.

And that's kind of like roughly the amount per person.

Yeah, per individual. Yeah.

Which is wild to me. Yeah.

So that's just a random fact for your, you know, your morning.

Listen on the Sunday sit down that there's the fact that you

can you can put away and you know never need to know again.

So, so one of the, yeah, as we've said, like this whole,

this whole passage is, I think fairly fairly easy to understand

the implication, but much harder to do because I think we can

automatically go to the questions of like the extreme

like, well, it's like, well, I don't have what that billionaire

has. Like I'm not hoarding wealth

like them. I'm not, I'm not doing this or,

you know, for, for different like lower income brackets.

It's like, well, I will never attain any level of, of that,

you know, that type of greed or whatever because it's not

possible for me. But, but I, I think one thing

that you sort of cut 2 was like whether you are very well off in

your life and you've had a successful career or whether you

have very little. The heart is really where we

need to look at in terms of understanding what is going on

for us. Because you've seen contentment

with people who are very little and exceeding generosity with

those who have very much right. And, and some of those

conversations are complex. But so, so I think we end up

like asking ourselves like a lot of a lot of questions that that

are like particulars, like the question that we were asking

that I know that I was asking when we were like doing sermon

prep last week was OK. So like, are my retirement

savings is that, is that sin? You know, and like, that's where

we want to go right away. Yeah.

And, and it's like Jesus, I feel like I, I feel like Jesus would

be asking the same questions. I'm like, look, I'm not your

accountant like. Yeah.

Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm more like interested in what's going on in

here, you know, and, and. Yeah.

Yeah, I think there's. So there's there's a lot there.

The just to to comment on the first thing that you said.

I think the natural one of our natural human inclinations is to

do that like, well, what about what about this person or what

about that person? What about the billionaire has

like, I don't have that much or we go immediately to comparison

where there's just this yeah, yeah, this this tendency to say,

well, I'm not as bad as so therefore I must be good.

Like I'm. For justification purposes.

Yeah, and you go, well, I'm not as bad as that person.

I'm not as bad as that family, you know, that couple and how

they spend money is far worse. Or nobody should be allowed to

have a billion dollars and it it just all it does, is it it it

avoids accountability in your own life because you get to feel

good that you're not as bad as somebody else, right.

So I think as soon as you know, if, if that's the inclination in

your heart, is it gonna say, well, at least I'm not as bad as

like that already. It should be.

I think should be pointing you towards something going on

inside of you or to say, well, you know, there are billionaires

that exist out there. We should like there's

billionaire shouldn't be allowed to exist.

Sure, fair make that argument, but that, you know, that's no

reason for you to be any different with your own time and

money and resources, right? Yeah, You know, the their

existence shouldn't it doesn't doesn't give you justification

to do whatever you want, which I think sometimes we want to like

we want to say, well, you know, there's enough food to feed

everybody. It's just a distribution issue.

So I'm not going to do anything about it, right.

Or, you know, there's enough money for everybody in the world

to be, you know, to live some level of of lifestyle.

So, you know, why should I be the one to give anything away?

It should be the people with more and and I go, yeah, OK,

true. It should be.

And it should also be you like there.

It's it's tough to, I think. Do you start to make that

argument? Whenever you start to make that

argument, I think I know you know, it's, it's often from a

place of I don't really want to do what I'm feeling convicted to

do, so I'm going to make other people worse than I am so that I

can be OK with where I'm at. And it's like we need to have,

we need to have two different conversations.

There is a, there is a conversation to be had about

like, hey, let's talk about the ethics of, of like, you know,

say food inequity and say like, well, you know, like around the

world, there is enough to go around and like there are, there

are barriers and systemic issues.

And like, let's talk about the ethics of all of these things

and geopolitics. And like that is that's a very

different conversation. That's it's very interesting to

have. It's great to talk about, you

know, it's great to talk about the ethics of billionaires, but

it's, it's removed from again of it.

It avoids talking about our hearts and what's going on for

me personally. And that if I am, you know, if I

make X amount of dollars and I'm willing to be just completely

unaccountable for any of it, that's a me problem, not a, a

global food source. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like. Absolutely.

And, and so like I named this on Sunday, but I feel like it's

helpful to name again, Jesus actually presses on that point

right where, you know, he so this younger brother.

And, and we're assuming that, but, you know, I think

commentators and theologians would agree that's a fairly safe

assumption. The older brother is probably

not going to be the one coming to Jesus to say, like, make my

younger brother share the distribute, like, you know,

divide the, the inheritance equally or differently.

Like that's not just not a scenario that would happen.

So younger brother comes to Jesus.

Jesus doesn't say, yeah, you know what, you're right.

Your older brother shouldn't have that much money.

He should share it. I mean equivalent to to saying,

yeah, you know what, those billionaires shouldn't exist.

They should share. It just doesn't do that.

What he says is you're you're both being driven by

covetousness. You're both being driven by

greed and envy. So greed for the things that you

want and don't have and think you are maybe even owed or do.

But again, don't have envy to look at what somebody else has

and to say, you know, in a in an unhealthy way.

I want that to the degree that you're saying, you know, I

deserve what you have, right? So I think it's helpful just to

flesh those things out. But Jesus doesn't play either

game. Yeah, right.

It doesn't say to this, this younger brother.

Yeah. You know what?

You're right. You, you you should be given a

little bit more and things should be fair quote, right.

Or he he doesn't say. Yeah.

You know what the older brother should give you more than what

you have. He also doesn't say, you know,

tough luck. Yeah, you know, this is what the

law says. So just do the thing.

He cuts, like you said, he cuts to the heart of the issue, which

is both of their creeds. And that's, like, brilliant

quote. And I brought Fred Craddock's

commentary where he says, like, who?

Who can decide? You know, who can decide whose

greed is is better or worse, right?

Like, that's the line. Yeah.

So. So he's got this great take on

on Jesus. He's like Jesus is asked to be a

referee and he refuses. After all, who can judge whose

greed is right? And so, you know, I think we sit

here and go, yeah, OK, should there be a conversation around,

yeah, food distribution, the wealth that exists in the world,

how we've made a mess of it? Yes, definitely.

At some point in some way, absolutely.

But that's not what Jesus is saying here.

He calls both of it greed. Whether you have much or have

little, we're all capable of greed and of envy and

covetousness to kind of sum all of that up and a way of being.

So I think then the question becomes, I think you're going to

take us there. The question becomes, OK, yeah.

So what? What do you do with it?

And so, yeah, the, the, the question that I, I think we

should all be asking is simply what is enough?

What is enough? And, and I think that there's a

lot of different directions you could go in that.

I have sort of like a, I'm not gonna ask this yet because it's

sort of like a follow up from, from the question of what is

enough. But just like, what's the first

thing that comes to mind when when I ask that question?

So OK two, I want to tell two stories.

Number one, I heard a pastor in the States named Brian Loretz

preach a sermon on, on this topic of enough and what is

enough. And, you know, my, my wife and I

walked away from that hearing that.

And it was at the Global Leadership Summit one year.

We walked away from that really wrestling out for ourselves, OK,

what will be enough? And so he tells the story where

he planted a church in early on, he, you know, was making

peanuts. And then the church started to

grow and the board in their constitution and their makeup,

the board got together and said, OK, we're going to give him a

raise. And so they gave him a raise and

he accepted that ways and then the church continued to grow.

And so a few years later he got another raise and a few years

later the same thing. So trajectory over, you know, a,

a chunk of career was that his income was increasing as the

church was growing and as his responsibility was increasing

and etcetera. So all that was happening and he

tells his story of having to sit down with his wife and decide

like, are we going? Are we going to is it right for

us to take this? A, is it right for us to take

this raise? B Like what are we going to do?

Like is this, are we going to, we're just going to commit

ourselves to this endless pursuit of increase, right?

Like are we content just allowing this to happen and

allowing ourselves to raise, you know, raise our lifestyle with

the income, household income increase?

Or are we going to choose and commit to be different about how

we use it? And So what they came up, what

they decided was that they're going to take the increase.

Like they're gonna they're, they're going to use the

increase or, or like accept it, I think could be the word he

used. But they are going to decide as

a family what is enough. And anything that they make as a

household, she's like, you know, she was working, he was working.

Anything they make as a household over that enough,

they're gonna give away. Hmm.

So some of it they're gonna tie back to the church.

Some of they're gonna give to mission organizations and

partners. And they're just gonna then with

the recipe generous with it. But for them, it was a conscious

decision of saying, OK, this is what enough looks like for us as

a family and we're going to choose to not accidentally

increase enough because I think that's what happened.

So I walked away really convicted about that.

And this was like a decade ago almost now that probably

honestly around the same time that if you're in the sermon on

Sunday, around the same time that we started doing these

crazy experiments like eating all the food in our house until

we, you know, until buying anything else because we, like,

we were convicted as a couple. OK, how are we gonna be?

And figuring out, like to decide and determine and discern what

is enough is a really hard thing to do.

So, you know, what we decided was we've got to figure out what

enough is. And enough should probably,

like, feel a little bit uncomfortable.

Like it shouldn't feel like cushy.

It shouldn't feel safe. It shouldn't feel like we can do

everything we want and buy everything we want.

And not have to ask any questions and not have any hard

conversations and we can go on whatever vacation we wanna go on

like that I think would be many people's definition of enough.

And So what what Brian Lauritz and that story really revealed

to us was, OK, you've got to fight the urge to just allow

your your lifestyle to increase with your household income

because that's like, it's like, what's the science experiment?

I don't think it's a science experiment.

This would be a terrible science experiment.

But like boiling frogs never like jump out of the pot.

Like if you put them in when the water's cold and then you put

the pot on and they boil, like they will stay in the pot and

die because they don't register the temperature, like the slow

temperature rise. That's a horrible science

experiment. Please nobody do that science

experiment. But if you were to like toss a

frog into boiling water, apparently they like they jump

out because you know, they know this is this is going to kill

me. And I think that our like our

tolerance for enough or for like it's changes slowly as we age,

you know, for for many people. And I would say that like the

caveat here is, you know, obviously always are exceptions

to these kind of general analogies and statements.

But typically as a household, let's say your income is gonna

increase over, you know, from your, let's say early 20s to

fifties, right? The assumption is your income is

going to increase and as. You further your career as

you're like the, the I think I'm thinking about like the, the

common trajectory for a lot of people, not everyone, but but

like that, that is usually you starting your career and you

build and build and build. And by the time you have 50s,

you kind of you're at your, your pinnacle, right?

Yeah. So what happens with that

trajectory is that your lifestyle changes.

You start to buy more things, live in a bigger house, you move

houses, buy nicer things, you go out to eat more, maybe go on a

vacation, maybe go on another vacation.

Like your lifestyle increases, uh, often at the rate of your

career trajectory. Now, what also happens is your

lifestyle increases too fast, right?

Yeah. But what can equally happen,

what the equally possibility is to say we're not gonna allow our

lifestyle to increase at that rate.

We're not going to allow ourselves to become boiling

frogs. Like we're going to actually

choose to step out of that and be different toward our money

and toward our generosity with others, with the church, with,

you know, what God is doing in the world.

And that takes a conscious choice.

So I walked away from that, that leadership summit thinking to

myself, hey, how like, OK, what do we need to do in order to

determine and then commit to enough?

And we're still trying to figure it out.

So you start to have kids and you like your Bills.

And anyways, like it's a hard, but it needs to be this constant

conversation of what will be enough.

Now, on the flip side of it, I brought Craddock in because I

want to read another line that we were batting around in the

sermon prep, I think after the sermon.

So we were having this conversation, sermon prep and

Alison was texting, texting afterward.

And I sent this quote to you and to Allison and let me find it

because I think that this is this is actually harder for us

to grasp than just simply saying determine for yourself what is

enough and then give everything else away.

That would be a fantastic start if everybody would that be so

easy, But it's too easy. That's the thing.

Because if I get to determine what is enough then here.

OK, so while you're looking it up, like man, like what are

gifts? Craddocks commentary has been

like, he's just like, so such a sharp mind and yeah.

Yeah. And like Preacher, right?

So, yeah, that's why I really appreciate it.

He's got these lines. He's like the preacher should be

careful to not do this. I'm like, thank you, Fred.

OK, good deal. I won't do that.

So he says this. So he's talking about anxiety.

And I think this is gonna be a helpful chunk because one of the

questions that I think one could have walking away from a sermon

like that and from a passage like this is OK.

Well, is all anxiety just anxiety about material

possessions, wealth, money and things Like what about general

anxiety disorders? What about like clinically

diagnosed anxiety? What about the stuff that I, you

know, that that creeps in? Like, is it all like it just

says, don't be anxious? Like, can I just turn it off

like a faucet? Like what's going on?

So here's this is helpful. He says the second theme in the

unit on possessions concerns anxiety.

And then he says the injunction against anxiety is not a general

one. It's not against all anxieties.

And if I have, I don't regret, try not to have regrets after

preaching because like I believe that the preaching moment is

what it is because the Holy Spirit allows it to be so like,

I'm not gonna regret something. But I think if I were to preach

this again in a different way, this would be a line that I

would have included, right? That it's not an injunction.

Jesus isn't speaking against all kinds of anxiety, general

anxiety, all as a whole. He's speaking against a very

specific anxiety. And then credit goes on to say,

because sometimes actually anxiety is positive in the New

Testament. So Paul's got this positive

regard and care for the church. So you see that in second

Corinthians, Timothy has it right, Timothy's anxiety for the

welfare of the the Philippians, like the same word is used

positively to be like this positive concern and worry about

a people that you care deeply for, right?

And your, your desire for them to experience life and fullness

of life and to not live into sin patterns and habits that are

destroying them. And so there's a, there's

actually a positive anxiety in the New Testament.

So that's, that's number one. And then #2 I think it's, it's

not just this general, it's did Jesus not saying this will cure

all of your anxiety about everything all the time.

And it's not a physiological kind of anxiety cause like

anxiety is, is generally just a response a, you know, to stimuli

that we don't like or that is, you know, sometimes it can be

positive, sometimes negative. Yeah.

And and so like telling, telling someone with a generalized

anxiety, don't be anxious is like, you know, when you tell,

you know, when you tell someone you know, like oht just like

don't worry about it. Like don't like, yeah, like just

don't stress about it. It's like, well, I can't.

I can't help it. Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, I think if you're out there wrestling with with

anxiety, it's, it's you need to figure out the root cause.

And that's going to happen, I think with pastors, I think it's

going to happen with therapists and with friends, like deep,

meaningful friendships, people who know you and who have known

you for a long time and know you in a very meaningful and

significant way. Like there are lots of routes to

to uncovering like the root causes of anxiety for sure.

I think for a lot of people, root cause of anxiety is

actually what she is talking about though, which is safety

and security. Yeah, yeah.

That's a core longing that human beings have.

Now you might have issue with safety and security because you

didn't receive it as a child, which is a whole lot different

of a conversation to have. Then if you have safety and

security issues that are, you know, primarily related around

money and, and things like the money and things is actually

just, I think a, an outpouring of the like craving after safety

and security, the root cause of your safety and security stuff.

That's what you got to uncover. And so at any rate, I think safe

to say, you know, anxiety can actually be positive in the New

Testament. And Jesus isn't speaking against

all anxiety for all time. He's speaking against a very

specific anxiety. So credit goes on, and he says

this. Here the issue is preoccupation

with material things. And then he says everyone, of

course protests that he or she only wants enough.

But here's what I want people to hear.

But no one knows how much is enough until one has too much.

Hmm. So that so I, I texted that to

to you and to Allison. And I think the response, one of

the responses that came back was literally like, so is there ever

an quote enough or as soon as you have enough, do you really

have too much? To which I responded, I want it

to be the former. I want it to be that no, there

really isn't enough that you can discover and figure out.

Which tells me it's the latter. Yeah, that really like what I

want. I want for there to be an quote

enough that I can attain and feel comfortably, which tells me

that as soon as you have too much, it really actually or as

soon as you have quote enough, it really is too much So, so

it's like it's a luxury to be able to say I have enough.

So, so if you're asking the question, that might be a sign

in and of itself, like, yeah. I think if you can answer the

question, yes, I have enough that that is the answer right?

That maybe like. So here's here's what I have

come to about this, because I think it's actually just

semantics. I think it entirely comes down

to who we allow to define our enough.

So if I get to be the one who defines what is enough for me,

then right away, too much, right?

Probably too much. I'm going to err on the side of

too much. And I know that to be true.

And I think people, if you like, really sit with your own

thoughts and wants, you people realize like, yeah, I I fall

into that category. Like, if I get to be the one to

determine what is enough for me, I'm always going to air on the

side of too much. Now, I know that there are

exceptions to this, right? And I know that there are people

like, well, what about, like, what about Mother Teresa?

Or what about, like, what about, you know, these people who have

given up what looks like an entirely worldly material

possession, tantalized like, yes, like there are always gonna

be outliers and exceptions. But I think it's.

Probably not you though. No, but it's not me, OK?

I'm not the exception. I am not the exception, right?

So if I get to be the one to define enough, then I think I'm

already going to start from a selfish standpoint.

I think that's just the nature of of humanity and the nature of

sin and depravity. Like, I think we tip in that

direction. So do I want to do better?

Yes, absolutely. Right.

Do I want to shame people for also being a little bit selfish?

No, absolutely not. Like I think we all want to be

better. Yeah, and do better.

And we're not horrible, terrible people for having this selfish

bent. We're human.

So the the question in my mind becomes who is defining what is

enough? And this is where our

conversation over preaching prep went, I think in a pretty cool

direction. And I'm curious to like, yeah,

flesh this out in longer conversations, but what would it

look like? And I would just say this and

and we pulled this idea from John Mark Comer's book,

Practicing the Way. So he talks about how a group of

families have gotten together. And if any one of the families

is going to make a purchase over a certain amount of money, like

over a certain dollar amount, they've got to talk to, they've

got to actually submit it to the families, the other families.

Which some people in our case. So like I, I loved where our

discussion went with that. And by the end I was like,

that's, that's really cool. That seems very counter

countercultural in the right way of like, Hey, we're, we're not

going to feed the machine. We're gonna actually be in

dialogue in, in community, in harmonization with our with our

decisions. Yeah.

But man, there is such a my, my initial reaction, and I think

for probably a lot of people, it's gonna be like that feels so

intrusive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's, it's my private life. Yeah, yeah.

This whole idea though, and this is not the time for this

conversation, this whole idea of like a public and private life

has gotten us into a tremendous amount of trouble.

So much. Yeah, right.

Like the privatization or like the individualization even of

the household, like I'll say that.

So like, I think we live in this rampant age of individualism and

we're hurting because of it. And that we see that in

individual, like in literally like the single person.

Yeah. But we also see it in terms of

family and households. Then it becomes an individual

family unit, like an individual like.

So a couple who's married or a couple who's married with kids,

like you still become a singular unit of whatever that unit is.

If you're in if you're a solo person, you are a singular unit

of solo personhood of people, right?

If you are a married couple, you for a single like singular unit

of married couples. If you are a family with kids,

like you are a singular unit of family with kids.

So we view this like ethics and morality through the lens

naturally right now of individualism, which is, I

think, incredibly harmful in the long run.

So again, that all I'm going to say on, on that right now,

Connie and I have this baby version of it, which now feels

entirely way too safe. So we have like, and it has a it

has a, a stupid name, but it's like a marital allowance, right?

And so a friend of ours in seminary, his, his dad, his

actually his mom and dad together with another couple

wrote this like marriage prep book.

And so it's it's this great two parter like series.

So there's a book that's designed for the husband and

then there's a book that's designed for the wife and they

work that cooperatively, these two couples on these books.

And so it's called the most important year me in a man's

life and then the most important year in a woman's life.

And it's the, it's the engagement year leading up to

the marriage. And then the first year of

marriage is kind of the, you know, the, the timeline, but

they suggested it in that book. And so that's one of the books

that Connie and I worked through when we were engaged.

The idea is, and it's not rocket science, there's a fixed amount

of money that I can spend without asking Connie.

And there's a fixed amount of money that Connie can spend

without asking me. And it gives freedom.

Like it's one of those, it's a beautiful example of how

guardrails good freedom. Yeah.

So I know that if a if a purchase is under a certain

amount, I can make it. It might be a dumb purchase at

the end of the day. Yeah, but it's not going to

breach that. Like, how are we managing money

together as a couple? Like I can't go out and spend

$700.00 on something that's not the benchmark.

Like it's a lot lower than that. You know, there were times in

our in our in our lives when it was like 20 bucks.

And then there was a time when it was 50 bucks.

And then there's a time when it's 100 bucks and there's a

time when it's 200 bucks. And you can see even in that the

creep of the frog in the boiling pot.

Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, I think it's

that level of commitment. So that's between spouses to

say, hey, we're not gonna do this.

Like in order to manage money together.

Well, we're gonna commit these things to each other.

It's that, but on steroids where like households, families, like

if anything's going to cost them over.

And I think for John Mark Comer, I think what he talks about is

$1000. So I'm like, shoot, five years

ago, you couldn't buy like a big TV without talking to somebody

about it. But here's the beauty of it is

like it allows just to pull it all the way back to the

beginning. It allows for somebody else to

input on your own definition of enough.

So if you and I like if, if Connie and I and you and Lindsey

were to do this and you can bleep out your wife's name if

you wanna bleep it out in the podcast because my wife's name

is Lindsey. Right.

Yeah, so fair. So if the four of us were to

commit to do this, let's say, yeah, that allows and it

incurred what it what it. Well, actually what it limits is

it limits Connie and I from defining what is enough for us.

And they do it like for, for, you know, for like income,

salary givings. Like what would it look like for

the two of us to commit our budget like at 20 in 2026 to

say, OK, Justin and Lindsey, here's our here's our household

budget. Here's how much we're gonna

spend on groceries. Like the percentage, here's how

much we're gonna spend on travel.

The percentage here's how much we're gonna spend on on

entertainment. The percentage here's what we're

spending on like cell phone and Internet and things.

Anyways, here are all our percentages like how does this

look to pray about? That yeah, yeah.

Like is this? Reasonable.

Yeah, Yeah. Is this acceptable?

Is are we living inside our means or outside our means?

Are we like, have we properly defined what enough actually is

for us? Like have we allotted enough for

our kids and their expenses? Have we allotted enough for

food? Have we allotted enough for

housing and, and have we allotted too much in areas that

are unnecessary? So I, I think like that's a,

that's a terrifying thing because a, it means that we

actually have to have that much work done and which, you know,

isn't always the case in households.

And but then be to, to be able to say, OK, you take it and go

like with a pen, just cut stuff out that doesn't need to be in

here. Like that terrifies.

I'm getting stressed thinking about.

It but that's the level like I anyways.

I think that's an extreme and I don't want to say and extreme as

and you shouldn't do it. I think that would be a radical

thing to do and actually would be really healthy to do and it

it I think the challenge becomes how do you incorporate things

like that slowly like that would be an all out all in kind of

life changing thing and maybe somebody out there decides to do

that. Fantastic.

I think probably the first step or earlier steps are even like

within your marriage and household.

Yeah, maybe even about certain purchases to say, hey, you know,

help us make these decisions. They the, the, the.

And this is the last thing I'll say.

The main thing is I think we will always struggle if we are

the ones to define for ourselves what is enough.

That's you have to let somebody else's critique your enough.

And I think that's one of the. Things as as you were talking, I

started thinking about like how we function as a church in this

way like there's lots of freedom and flexibility within our, you

know, annual budget. But at the end of the day, that

the budget is still a community effort in many ways.

Right there we get we get volunteer committees that we are

submitting budgets and then we vote on the budget when we have

our annual general meeting. And there are there's a time for

questions. And sometimes those questions

are pointed questions about why we're spending money on XYZ.

And it's like sometimes it's uncomfortable and sometimes

it's, it's, you know, yeah, it can be a little, it can feel a

little bit intrusive. Like, no, that's I we, I

budgeted that for my ministry and I want that for my ministry,

you know, and, you know, like churches are not immune from

these conversations as well. And, and I think that it would

be easy to look at, you know, at Church of our size and and type

as as being pretty modest. And in many ways we are, right.

But that doesn't mean that we are not susceptible, right?

Yeah. I think the other thing that

I've found. Encouraging over my years in

ministry is that most often when somebody arises to point out

issues with the budget, it's, it's in the direction of being

more generous. Yeah.

Like, yeah, that's when when the hardest questions come up, it's

often, why are we spending this amount of money on what looks

like ourselves? And how can we be spending more

money on mission and external resourcing and programs?

Like, you know, I think very often that's the discernment of

a group of people is how do we be more generous?

Yeah, actually in recent years I recall.

That one of there was one AGM we had where the one of the

questions was really about like, hey, why have we slashed our

youth ministry budget? We should be pouring more into

our youth. And there was a very practical

reason why the budget was different from one year to the

next. But it was like it was, it was a

valuable question to ask. Yeah.

You know, so like, that was helpful.

That was good. Yeah.

Help us understand the heart behind.

The numbers, yeah. And and I think the more we can

do that as individuals and as families, households, the better

off will be as well. So yeah, that's a daunting

challenge though. Like it's a big change, yeah.

So maybe. Like again, and the answer to

the question what is enough is is never going to be a, you

know, a hard and fast, you know, like here's here's the the one

second or one minute summary of of the answer.

But I but I think that you've you've tapped into the the heart

behind it by saying like this is something that we can't answer

for ourselves, that we were not going to be objective enough.

Yeah, but but I think maybe like, and this could be a little

more rapid fire, but like, what are some of the warning signs

that we are veering into territory that could be

described as too much? Maybe said another way, what are

the warning signs that I am living more like the man in

Jesus parable? You know, like that, you see

that the the kind of the posture of that man and say, am I

mirroring that, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. I think one of the things that I

find, and again, we didn't go down this this in this direction

on the sermon, is the fact that he is literally talking about

destroying something that he has to replace it with something

that is the same but bigger. Yeah, so that's, you know, for

for a church also like that's a good don't need to go down this

rabbit, this rabbit trail right now, but that's a that's a good

metric. Like so are you are you buying

or are you purchasing? Are you accumulating?

Are you looking for things that are simply replacing things that

you already have? Like so I think that's that's

stupid bag analogy actually worked in this way.

Yeah, because, you know, it's a perfect example of the fact that

I have a perfectly good backpack that carries the things I need

for work, like a laptop and a water bottle and some books.

I don't need a different style bag to do the same task.

So that for me is a is a pretty good starting point to to

uncover what is a need versus a want.

Yeah, you might want something and you might be able to justify

it and rationalize the purchase, but is it a want or a need?

So name things that are needs needs and name things that are

wants. Wants.

That's a great thing. If you're trying to trick

yourself into calling a want a need, that's a good indication.

Yeah. OK, so that's number one.

Number two, I look at the amount of time I spend dwelling on

something. So like this is a, this is a, I

think in the realm of like attention and affection.

So where your attention is, your affection follows.

And so I need to think for myself about how much time now

I'm going to make good decisions.

If I'm going to make a decision, I want to make a good wise

decision. If you're making a big purchase,

you want to. Research it and make sure you're

making the most informed, you know?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But.

But if I'm spending an inordinate, inordinate amount of

time on wants, that's also another red flag.

So, you know, for me for a while, like I, I was in

photography and I worked as a photographer for two years while

I was in school. And so, you know, I liked buying

camera gear and, and taking good photos and chasing photos, even

like kind of planning them out. But it, there came a time in, in

our life where I needed to sit down and realize, yeah, I got,

I've got a little bit too much money invested in these things.

And we were selling our house at the time and I sold all my gear.

I sold it all. And the amount of mental energy

that that freed up in terms of like, just like thinking about

things that aren't needs was, was pretty cool to see.

So yeah, look at how much time, where's my attention going?

How much time am I spending dwelling on something and

thinking about it? And if it's not, if it's not a

need, like if if I'm spending too much time, like I said on

wants, that's that's a pretty good indicator.

So that's number two. And then #3 I think you've got

to have somebody in your life who you can run these things

past and who will give you a very quick, again, rapid fire

answer. Yes, pursue that.

No, don't right. For me, that's my wife like it.

And it I think for me it like it has to be so I know if I'm

looking at a purchase and I say to her, hey, I'm, I'm

considering this thing. And she says, yeah, you should

look into it. That for me is a green flag.

Like that's like green light. Go for it.

Would you say Connie is? More would you say she is more

apprehensive on spending like like because you could just go

knowing that they're gonna confirm your bias yeah no yeah

I. Yes, I think so.

I think she's also. I know that she'll say no.

That's stupid. Yeah, Yeah.

Like Lindsey's the same way for me, right?

And I think that, you know, we we've we've worked toward

understanding one another's habits and patterns over our

almost 17 years of marriage. But still, I mean, I think

regardless, it's, it is an ongoing conversation and

sometimes an ongoing tension to to sort of understand one

another and how you approach purchasing and money and wants

and needs. Yeah.

So I think. To the other thing is that you,

you need that person in your life to be able to say to you

not only about like an acute purchase, but just in general,

you're spending too much time thinking about these things.

Yeah. So, like, I think you could, you

could walk away from this and actually in some ways covet this

whole conversation, like in, in a way that's unhealthy, right?

So you go, OK, I'm gonna become the best, a spender, non spender

that I can be. Like you can actually idolize

this whole process. Like you can turn into like a

minimalist. And it actually like wreck your

life. Well, this is the thing I think

it can. Become, I think minimalism is

good. I think there is like a cult of

minimalism that idealizes the lack of stuff as really

ultimately the same thing, right?

So you need somebody who can say you're still prioritizing the

wrong thing. Yeah, whether it's to access or

to little like or, or to Yeah. So I think that those are the

three things that I like just at least off the top of my head

want to look for. I think if I were to add a

fourth in there and you want to get a little bit gutsy, print

off all of your bakes bank statements for three months and

actually go through and look at what you're spending your money

on. And I think that's going to

reveal to where you know where, where things are.

There's, there are, there are subscriptions that you can buy

now whose entire purpose or purpose is to cancel you from

your subscriptions. Yeah.

Like you can literally pay a monthly fee so that an app goes

through your banking and and your e-mail and unsubscribes you

from paid subscriptions that you're not using.

And it's ostensibly. Saving you money, but you're

you're spending money to save that money of things that you

should just remember to cancel anyway.

Mind blowing to me. How we've created this

environment where like we don't even know what we're saying.

So yeah, yeah, those are four. And if you know, if you were to

try one, even one of those four, I think you're gonna find a

health on the other side. There might be some conflict

along the way, but you're gonna find some health on the other

side of it. And it's gonna start to reveal

where your heart is. And then, OK, last thing that I

want to say because I want to get this out.

I think that ultimately follower of Jesus, you need to have a

proper, true, good, right understanding of where you are.

Like you need to understand where you are accurately.

And then you need to commit that to Jesus and actually take that

to a place of prayer and say and allow God to convict you on it,

right? Allow a present it to God and

say, is this like, is this what you have for me?

Is this right MI in line with your Kingdom and what you're

doing? And is this, And I think again,

like I said, the last thing now probably too many times, if

you're not willing to do that, that right there is your answer.

Anything that you're not willing to say.

Here's what I'm struggling with. God, like that, That's the

thing. That is the thing.

Yeah. And so it's not to say you're

gonna struggle. It's not to say that you're not

gonna have things that that you're working through and that

are hard and progress is not linear.

You're gonna go up, go down. But as soon as you become

unwilling to actually even say to God, who knows the thing

already. God, this is the thing, you

know, I think that again, that's your answer of of where you're

at. So again, not to shame and not

to guilt. That's not what Jesus is doing.

But I think what I would say is that the more I have found more

freedom and less anxiety in committing finances to God

together with my wife and in community than I have found in

what would be, quote, having more than enough.

That's that's a great way to to look at it.

And I think it encompasses, you know, because one of the

questions I have that we didn't really get to, but I think it

kind of answers it there is when we look at needs versus wants

and and obviously wants our arguably outside of the the

barrier of enough right there, they are beyond enough, right?

But I mean, like, you know, like everyone has hobbies and things

like just spend money on and things like that, right?

But but I think that when we when we can ask that question of

just saying, like, am I, am I able to open handedly submit

this to God? Yeah.

That that sort of solves it for me.

You know, not that it, it's going to be an ongoing tension

for the rest of our lives, but it solves the the answer of

like, how do I, how do I approach my my wants and my

hobbies and things like that? Right.

So that's, that was that's that's helpful.

Yeah, like God's. Desires for you to experience an

abundant life. We just need to let God define

what abundance looks like. Hmm.

Right. But life to the full actually

means, Yeah, you know, it. It's gonna include some things

that you don't. Yes, technically by the letter

of the law, need to survive. Uh, but man, like what those,

what those things contribute in terms of life and flourishing of

life for you and those around you is, is warrant enough for

the thing. So again, just allow other

people and allow God to be the one to define those things, and

you're already going to be light years ahead of where you were.

That's good. Well, why don't we close out

there? And until next time, we hope you

have a great week. And we hope that this passage

and this conversation is encouraging you to have

conversations with loved ones and friends and family as we

wrestle out how best to do this. Have a great week.