Podcast: (Luke 17:1-10)

Hey, welcome to today's episode of the podcast.

I've completely lost track of the number at this point, so

welcome. We're glad that you're here

today. We're jumping into a really

difficult conversation. Name it off the top, we're going

to be dealing with forgiveness and.

Really sparked something for people just in terms of the in

my inbox this morning and also your conversations after the

sermon after the Sunday. It's, it's a hard one, but it's

an important one and it's a good one and it leads to life, but

it's hard. And so I think I started off by

saying that like the number one thing I said right at the very

beginning is like forgiveness is difficult and that's OK.

It's OK that it is hard. You know, if you feel like it is

difficult, you're not in any way, shape or form like behind.

Yeah, right. Like it's hard for everybody.

No matter how, you know, far along you think somebody else

is, it's still hard. And it's hard because it's

personal. We talked about how it means

voluntarily suffering and like those are just things that we

don't in our, you know, day and age enjoy like culture doesn't

really kind of, you know, push the whole the voluntary

suffering yeah conversation very, very, you know, far.

It's it's all about limiting your suffering.

So yeah, forgiveness, um, Luke 17, if you haven't read it,

worth a read. And I also played a little bit

in Matthew. So I did, you know, for this one

pull in some of some of the other stuff going on in the New

Testament. So we've got a bunch of

questions though today, which is great.

So I'm going to start with my question, OK?

You know that that if, if everybody thinks it's a bad

question, though, now they know that it's your question.

That's right. There's no, there's no bad.

Question so that that's her and then we do have we got we had an

e-mail this morning that I was in my inbox that was I think

great fodder for for some good discussion.

So so my wife and I this past weekend we we binge watched the

there's a miniseries of the count of Monte Cristo that came

out a couple years ago. So famous story couple 100 years

ago by Alexandre Dumas. That was my best French accent.

I messed her up perfect. And you know, so obviously not a

new story. So like I'm not going to go too

heavy spoiler here, but like there is some interesting

Lindsey and I kept looking at each other during your sermon.

You're like, Oh my gosh. And then we actually spent, so

we went for a walk last night and we spent about half of the

45 minute walk talking about like the the complexities and

nuance of some of the parts of the story.

So it was like it really reverberated in a way.

But one of the parts of this story is that the main

character, the counts, he has this concept, concept of justice

and and divine Providence. And in his mind, he was wronged

deeply, he was hurt deeply, and it affected the trajectory of

his life. And he, in his estimation, God

didn't turn up for him. God, God, God was not going to

enact justice. And so in his mind, he's like,

then I need to do it. That was that was sort of his

approach, right? And there's some ways in which

like he's kind of right. Like these people are thriving

that hurt him. And he's like, this is not just,

this is not right. I need to do something about

this. So he's like ostensibly correct

in his pursuit of justice, but then there are these unintended

consequences. And that's where I won't get

into spoilers, But so the question that arose for me from

that was where is our role? Obviously, our role is to

forgive. That is, that's kind of a

non-negotiable. Like that's just something that

we are called to even when it's hard, even when it's difficult.

But is there a role just to simply move on and and, you

know, forgive and then move on in the face of injustice?

Because that could sweep all sorts of like heinous acts and

injustice under the rug and and forgiveness as a way of

excusing. So to just distill it to its

core is how do we reconcile God as an avenger of justice with

our responsibility to forgive alongside our own pursuit of

what is right and good and just? Yeah, yeah.

So. Happy Monday.

Yeah. Happy, Happy Monday.

So it's a great question. I also love that you're like

intentionally not spoiling what is. 100 year old Exactly.

Yeah. I mean it's 1000 pages though so

I can't be forgiven if you don't want to.

Read that it is so I've I've read it a long time ago.

So I'm not gonna, I'll try to not actually bring a whole lot

into into like how I answer this question, except to say that I

think one of the one of the things about brilliant writing

that makes a book like that stand the test of time over, you

know, yeah. Now many multiple generations is

its ability to identify with the deepest pains of humanity.

So like anything that names the, the, the deep sadness and sorrow

and suffering of the human experience in, in my estimation,

is probably going to, you know, have some longevity to it.

Yeah. And I think that this is one

thing that that the book does well is it does it does

chronicle this, this really difficult and horrible thing

like that changes the trajectory of of someone's life and many

people's lives, which, you know, you and I know and listeners

know that happens still all the time.

There are things that happen in our lives that change and alter

the course of our lives, or at very least feel like they are

changing and altering the course of our entire lives.

Like something happens. And maybe for the perpetrator,

and I'll use that language, like for the the one who inflicted

the pain, who needs to be forgiven, you know, maybe

there's a situation where you're like, hey, that dude's just

living his best life now. Seems like he's completely

forgotten about it over years down the line.

I can't let it go. Yeah, right.

Like that's a conversation that we have all the time with, with,

with people who like, this is, this is part of the difficulty

of like when you've been hurt and wronged and harmed, it lasts

like, and it has an impact on your life and can change a

trajectory of, of your life. And it you can feel like, yeah,

you know, man, this is having a way worse impact on me than it

is on like you, you know, you perpetrator, right?

Hmm. So I think that that is, you

know, it, it's what it's what book does really well, which is

name it names this this pain and sadness.

And I haven't seen the miniseries.

And it's like I said, it's been quite a while since I read that

book. And when I say read, I mean, I

listened to it. So like, you know, it's a lot.

Yeah. Anyways, there's nothing wrong

with listening to audio. Like I listen most of the books

I quote read air quotes here. I listen to now because I just

try to get through so much umm, week over week that like I I

need to listen to it. I.

Can you find that's good for fiction as well?

Yeah, So yeah, it is. Yeah.

Cool. Yeah.

Yeah. I quite enjoy fiction by

audiobook and. I guess if the if the reader is

animated. Well, so.

That can make or break it, I can imagine.

That's the that's the difference.

Like nonfiction is just, I like when a author reads their own

book when it's nonfiction, yeah. But when it's fiction, you want

someone who's, like, performing the thing.

So there are some really good readers out there at any rate.

So that's that's just a name to name that piece.

But what do you do? So in that situation, you know,

when, when you are thinking along the same lines where OK,

maybe with my head I can say and I can know that justice belongs

to God, but it doesn't look like justice, like it doesn't look

like anything's happening. God's not doing.

Any that's not doing anything about it.

And I think that just to kind of go back to something that I

talked around yesterday, which for us this Sunday is like the

idea that that justice is not ours to define.

Like I think that's that's where we struggle is, you know, when

we've been wrong, it's really easy to start thinking, well,

this is what I would like to happen to this person, right?

And we start, like, building a picture of what justice ought to

look like in our own minds. And I think that part of the

commitment of the follower of Jesus is to say that justice

belongs to God. What you're saying there is not

only does the enacting of justice belong to God, but the

definition of justice also belongs to God, like, right,

what justice looks like, what it constitutes.

So here we get like one of the most violent images Jesus uses

in, in his teachings, right? So um, better for this guy who

is wronged a bunch of people to have a millstone thrown around

his neck. This like big donkey stone

necklace. I I googled image, searched that

and I was like Oh my God. They're huge.

They're huge. Like, they're like, like like a

van, like a minivan size, right, And then chucked into the ocean.

Like chucked into the sea. That is, That is a theological

statement for sure. That is, you know, but also just

that like that is a there will be there will be punishment like

there will be justice. There will be some level, some

measure of accountability that God will hold you know, so

Revelation and all throughout really the the scriptures we

talk about Jesus's second coming and new heaven, new earth don't

want to go down that whole rabbit trail necessarily today,

but as as Jesus returning to what to judge and they're in

Jesus language. They're sorting right of some

going One Direction and others going in a different direction

like some lives lived. So one of the most haunting

verses, you know, we'll come to you like Jesus.

He's he says some will come to me and say, hey, Lord, Lord,

Lord, look what we do look, look, look at when we did AB and

C like look at how we live for you and and Jesus, you know, he

says, I'll, I'll turn around and says I never knew you away from

me. I never knew you.

So the language that Jesus uses is that there will be a final

accounting for life. Now, that's not to say you gotta

earn it. So I'm also not saying like,

well, keep a Ledger in your back pocket.

Yeah, because you gotta make sure you got more good deeds

than bad deeds so that when the judge comes back, you can

present your evidence. That's also not what's

happening, right? Ultimately, God is the judge who

judges all of sin and death in the person of Jesus.

And so Jesus is when, you know, when Jesus dies on the cross,

God is the judge who judges himself, hmm, and bears the

judgment on his own person on humanity's behalf.

So, you know, you also have to talk about that kind of

understanding of grace and salvation.

But I think just to go circle back my my concern with the

justice piece is that I see far too often and I know it and I

feel it, that we would like to define what justice.

And then when justice isn't enacted, air quotes here in that

specific way, we think that it's not been enacted at all.

And that's when we're more likely to take into our own

hands something that more looks less like justice and more like

retribution. And I think that that's often

our like, we think that justice must include some measure of

retribution, right, Right. Like I think our cult, like we

want to get even. We want to even the score we

want, you know, you, you did X wrong and I'm gonna do Y wrong

back. Like there's that level of,

well, you've pushed and I'm gonna push.

Back I for I. Yeah, absolutely.

Jesus speaks to that as well, that that is not true justice.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, So what? So what does it look like?

And, and so I and and you, you know, as we before we hit play

like you, you mentioned that there's a specific word Jesus

uses. Yeah.

That is worth going down. Yeah, so, so OK, Just wanna back

up for a minute too, because I think there's some work to do to

get there. So justice belongs to God.

The definition of justice belongs to God.

That doesn't mean that you need to constantly suffer harm while

waiting for a future justice to happen, right?

So I think the worst possible take away from the sermon would

be, well, I just need to forgive this person who's harming me and

stay in this situation where I'm perpetually being harmed and

continue to forgive because Jesus says I have to forgive 7

times and that actually means as many times as necessary.

So I'm just going to continue to forgive.

So it would be an error to think that we are saying stay in a

situation where you continue to be harmed and hurt.

Now, the reason I get there theologically is because of this

word rebuke. So, you know, I think that the

passage itself gives the answer for that error, which is often

helpful. Yeah, but Jesus says, you know,

things are gonna come. They're gonna cause you to

stumble. Woe to anyone through whom they

come, like these things that cause other people to stumble.

Then you talks about the donkey stone chucked into the seat.

And then he says, if your brother or sister sins against

you, rebuke them. And that that word, that's a

very strong word. So it involves a measure of

telling the truth, right? It involves saying to the

person, this is what you've done and it actually means, and I

wrote this down, so I think it's really important.

It means to like assign proper value to the event.

So to rebuke someone includes a measure of assigning proper

value. So the the real full definition

is to assign value as is fitting the circumstance.

So in some sense, just because I think it's worth naming that we

as the perpetrated against get to make a a judgment call of

some kind on what they've done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And hopefully that's, you know, that's being done with

counselors and pastors and friends and, you know, a whole

lot of outside help. Yeah, to to encourage you and

get you to that place where you can accurately and truthfully

name the wrong. But like in in Matthew just says

if, if somebody's wrong, do you like go straight to them and try

to work it out between the two of you?

Like a measure of that is this, this language of rebuke, which

means to assign the thing proper value.

So if somebody has harmed you, what Jesus is not saying is

don't blow it out of proportion, right?

But he's also saying don't don't and I'm struggling to find the

exact words here. But like, don't make it too

small of a thing either, like. Don't make it.

You can underplay it. Yeah, yeah.

And the case. So that's my admittedly that's

my tendency. And you kind of touched on it a

little bit where you talked about, you know, like that, that

it's OK, you know, right. You mentioned that, you

mentioned that. And I think that's like, that's

my bent is, is when I have been, when I have been hurt, I, my

tendency is to say it's fine, you know, like I, you know, even

if I can say honestly that I've forgiven them, I will underplay

and undermine the impact and the harm that it, it caused to me,

you know, and, and that's my tendency.

For sure. Right.

So I think that sounds like it's OK, but I forgive you.

Yeah. Or it's OK and I forgive you.

Well, the those two sentences, those two clauses can't actually

go together because if it is OK, there's nothing to forgive.

And so I've actually started this.

But I, I would say this, it says it's OK and I forgive you.

Like, well, I'm speaking to myself now.

Like, dummy, you can't like those two things.

Yeah, be true. Yeah, they can't both be.

True. I remember one time you and I

were talking and and I and I was asking, you know, I was, I was

apologizing for something that I had done and.

And you said and you said it's OK.

I came up with that came out. I came right?

Yeah, but yeah, you said it's OK.

And then you then you clawed that back.

And he said, no, it's not OK, but I forgive you.

Yeah. I have no idea what that was.

Either it was not a it was not a big thing, certainly not a big

thing, but it was enough that I felt I needed to do apologize,

OK. And and I remember you.

I remember you distinctly saying no, I'm gonna, yeah, gonna take

that back. So that's what I've been trying

to do. And I think I've seen it through

the lens of my kids, which is like the best and worst mirror

to be looking into, right? Like when you raise a kid,

you're like, oh, my goodness, this is.

Yeah, yeah. So what I started hearing, and I

think I mentioned this a little bit on Sunday, but what I

started hearing was, you know, in my kids play also their

language mimicked that same thing.

So someone would apologize and then another one would say, it's

OK. And I say, no, no, guys stop.

Like, hmm, like it's not. And so I've tried really hard to

change my language around it to say, no, it's not OK, but I

forgive you or it's not OK and I forgive you.

I think the forgiveness carries much more weight if you

recognize that the thing was wrong.

And so I think that what Jesus is giving us here is a paradigm

for saying it's not OK, I'm going to choose to forgive you,

but this thing is not OK. And so we need to separate this

misunderstanding of forgiveness as simply excusing the wrong,

because it is in fact, so adamantly the opposite.

Forgiveness only is forgiveness if the wrong was wrong.

Like otherwise forgiveness has no point and there's no merit to

it, and there's no weight to it and there's no significance to

it. And it's not costly and it's not

significant at all if the wrong wasn't wrong.

So just to fill out that whole point for people in really

practical ways, if the wrong that was committed to you was

illegal, then part of the rebuke would be to seek proper recourse

because the, the, the break there, the, the rebuke actually

needs in some way to be, um, comparable or adequate for like

the wrong. So the, the wrong that has been

done needs to be named as the wrong that was done.

Yeah. And so part of that exactly.

So, you know, I think of situations of like abusive

marriages and where the church has been so improperly involved

over, you know, the the centuries of saying to an abused

spouse, you need to forgive your abuser spouse.

And also. Stand also stay in this

relationship right and like that is something that that.

Is started man, that's. Something that's still, well,

I'm like, it's something that is still said, right?

Like you need to forgive, you need to forgive, you need to

forgive. Yeah.

And I think that what Jesus is saying here, you know, if a

brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them.

So for starters, like he, he's actually talking about Christian

community. He's not he's yeah.

Like we could go down that rabbit trail.

Like he's not giving specific marriage advice.

No. But even without that, he gives

in that rebuke them a path forward for someone to seek a

proper measure of accountability.

And so in that way I do think that like.

Justice belongs to God. And ultimately the whole, the

whole situation, Justice in the course of human history and

salvation history, life and death, this life, the life to

come, justice all belongs to God.

And we have been given proper legal mechanisms for when in a

community laws are broken. Yeah.

So I just want to be so crystal clear about that.

And I, I, I was on the fence about whether to include this

part in the sermon or not, and it just did not work.

It felt like too abrupt of a stop at any point to include it.

That's why we're here, exactly. But I just think it's so

important to say, like if if the wrong that is being committed

against you is abusive, is unrepentant, is illegal, like

the rebuke needs to match that level of wrong.

Yes. That's not retribution, right?

You're not trying to just harm the person back to the same

degree that you've been harmed. But there is a certain level of

accountability that happens in naming the wrong.

Yeah. So like, if I'm wrong, you you

need to name that to me. It's not comfortable to me,

like, but that's what rebuking is like.

It's not comfortable if somebody wrongs you in a way that is

illegal. The rebuke needs to actually

have legal recourse, and that would not be a, um, that would

not be acting out of line with what Jesus is saying here.

Yeah, they're still gonna be hard work of forgiveness that

you need to do. And there's still gonna be hard

work of like, well, what does reconciliation look like in that

situation? Right.

And is reconciliation always possible?

Yeah. Yeah.

But I think that just to name that as bluntly as I can, in a

similar way, Jesus is so crystal clear here.

He says if someone wrongs you and comes back and apologizes

for it, their owning their wrong right then he says forgive them

if they repent. If they repent, forgive them.

He's not saying if somebody is harming you perpetually and is,

you know, unrepentant to the thing.

And if you've rebuked them, like if you've actually gone and

confronted them and challenged them on it.

And if it's not worked and you've gone and gathered other

people and together you've gone like maybe with another person

or with a therapist or like a pastor, somebody you've gone

buddy is still not repentant. That's not the situation that

Jesus is talking about here either.

No. So just to be crystal clear on

on those kinds of outside scenarios that can happen.

So just because I think it the way that that it's phrase here,

it's worth just asking the question.

So when Jesus says if your brother or sister sins against

you, rebuke them and if they repent, forgive them.

So is forgiveness contingent? Does it hinge on their

repentance? I think a, I think, yes, like

the fullest, most ideal, proper definition of forgiveness does

include repentance and reconciliation.

Yeah. So both of those things, right.

Like the goal of Christian forgiveness is reconciliation.

The goal is correction in a way that leads to a better, more

flourishing relationship. Again, that's not always

possible. So Miroslav Volf, he wrote a

number of books on forgiveness and reconciliation.

And I can't remember if it's in his book Exclusion and Embrace,

which is kind of one of the most famous ones where he he plays

with the idea of like, well, what about forgiveness where

reconciliation is not possible, right.

But even just to say, what about forgiveness when the perpetrator

has died? So let's say you grew up in a

really abusive household and you got out early and, you know,

then there's a traumatic or sudden sort of early death for

like a parent, and that person is no longer available.

And you're just left with all of this stuff like that, you

haven't been able to work out or process with them.

And, and sometimes what they get you to do that I, I've, you

know, been in situations like in therapy, they're talking about

like you, you can still, you can still work toward forgiveness.

You can still they do the inner work and the hard work and

sometimes it's writing a letter, sometimes it's even then

writing, reading it and they sometimes I say like burn it

afterwards, You know, things like that, right.

You know, because there are there.

Being gone doesn't change the the hurt that was caused to you.

Yeah, yeah. So I think that there are still,

you can still walk through these steps even if that person is not

available to you. It's going to be harder.

And I would almost say like categorically, and I almost

never say this like just absolutely true 100% of the

time. If that's a situation that you

find yourself in where you have this like resentment and

bitterness and hurt and harm that's been done and inflicted

and you need to forgive somebody.

And that person is like has died or is in prison.

Like if, if you cannot, if you cannot have a conversation with

that person, that in my mind is like, hey, you need to also be

seeing a therapist like all the time, 100% of the time.

That's the. That's the the.

Level you find a good one, we know.

Lots. That's the level, yeah.

That's the level of of yeah, of I think just help and

encouragement and challenge that that you would need.

So I very rarely do I say this like category 100% of the time

if this is the situation that you're in.

I just feel so deeply that it is so it is so difficult to walk

out forgiveness when reconciliation is not a

possibility that that in my mind, you need someone walking

with you every step of that way because as soon as you as soon

as you take. So if the Christian ideal,

right, if the if the created ideal is and I think we see this

all throughout Scripture is that there's been wrong committed,

there is rebuke or like some level of confrontation.

They're naming the thing. And then there is repentance,

forgiveness, reconciliation, O if that is the full, you know,

like trajectory of the thing ideally done.

If any one of those steps is not possible, it just becomes so

much more difficult that I think that that that should be queuing

you to go and talk to somebody about it.

So, so there are lots of situations where forgiveness

will need to be an internal act and where reconciliation may not

be possible due to absence or death or just it was a, an

irreconcilable situation. But I think this is worth naming

that there are lots of times where reconciliation is

possible, ought to be possible. Knowing where that line is going

to be a little tricky sometimes. Like where is the line between

this is your irreconcilable or this is, this is salvageable.

That can be a tricky balance to, to know.

But all that is to say is like, I think we can say

categorically, like there reconciliation a lot of the time

is plausible and should be sought.

Yeah, sometimes our lack of forgiveness is what gets in the

way. And sometimes my inability to to

recognize the good of reconciliation and the necessity

of it can, can, can, can cause that rift and keep that rift

indefinitely. Right.

Yeah. And I think it's just worth

naming because there are some situations that we have told

ourselves, we've told a lie to ourselves that this is

irreconcilable, this is not able to to be salvaged.

But actually it probably is if we do the work.

Yeah. And so let me name a couple

other things that that we we talk about often right and that

is a reconciled relationship isn't simply that things go back

to the way they were. Yeah.

And I just wanna like so if we're like looking through the

lens of a camera here, this be like zooming out like if you're

gonna put 3 camera, I know, I know, but we're not going to

zoom any of them. That would be but like you know,

so zoom out, pull back, picture the plane flying over 40,000

foot view of reconciliation for a second.

Because ultimately for the Christian, our reconciliation,

like our forgiveness and reconciliation, this horizon,

these horizontal relationships are all based on the forgiveness

and reconciliation that God offers to us.

And one is not possible without the other.

Like the reconciliation that happens in this horizontal plane

of relationship and experience is not possible fully without

the reconciliation work between you and God.

So if we look at our like the just again, just a very simple

hop, skip and a jump overview of reconciliation between humanity

and God, between the individual and God.

Um, if the so the relationship you even talk about like

Genesis, you look at the first few chapters of Genesis and no

matter how you read it, the truth that it conveys is perfect

relationship between humanity and God.

Brokenness almost immediately comes into play and creates this

broken relationship between humanity and God.

Um, brokenness then begets brokenness, right?

Like harm begets harm. So you go very quickly.

I think it's in like the first four chapters of Genesis.

You go from perfect like create creation.

God says it's good. Hmm.

Macy's. Hey, Adam probably shouldn't be

alone. So I'm gonna create Eve now even

but like this is good. This is good.

They walked with God. Brokenness enters into the

equation. They eat of the fruit and then

very quickly Kane kills Abel but it's like 4 chapters in and you

get great. Awesome.

Like that's a rock solid start for humanity.

So you know, like the early, early scriptures tell this

story. Yes, ultimately of this ideal

created, ordered right relationship between God and

humanity. But what has always been at play

in it is brokenness. And so, you know, you and I, and

this is like, this is theology that people do, you know, debate

over, but, you know, born into the same brokenness as Adam and

Eve. Yeah.

Like, first experience, right. Cain and Abel, born into that

brokenness. They didn't experience anything

other than that brokenness. There's lots of fancy

theological terms we don't need to get into but but it is, I

mean, however you split it, I don't think it's hard to.

I don't think it's a controversial to say like, hey,

whether, whether you are, whether you are born into it or

whether it's something that's very early on you, you learn,

you know, we are all in a broken world and will participate in

said brokenness, yes. Absolutely.

Yeah. So part of the the reconciling

work of Jesus on the cross and redeeming work of Jesus on the

cross is to is to make whole again, make right that broken

relationship between humanity and God.

Now, you know, I think that when you look at the course of

individual human lives, like, you know, that brokenness is

still at play and and salvation is being worked out and none of

us are perfect. And you know, eventually though,

we talk about this full arc of scripture that goes from right

good created, ordered to write good, recreated and ordered.

So there will be a day where brokenness and sin and suffering

and these deep things of the human experience that we all

know are no longer part of it are gone and done away with.

Until then, we kind of live in this, you know, halfway there.

It's already being lived out, but it's not yet lived out in

its completion. Brokenness is still a part of

life. But we have a, we have a picture

and a model of this rightly ordered recreated relationship

that is different. And this is what this is what I

would challenge people with is, is different than the

relationship as it started. So, and, and this is where like

when you look at the full arc of Scripture, you go, yes,

perfection to perfection, good to good creation to recreation,

but we're not there. But none of us, none of us exist

at either of those moments, right?

So, you know, we human beings born into brokenness suffer its

consequences and contribute to other people's brokenness,

broken relationship toward God's will.

God wants to take our relationship from that broken

place to a better place. And it's different after, you

know, the work of Jesus on the cross and our waking up to the

work that Jesus does on the cross and becoming aware of the

Kingdom of God and what God is doing in the world.

It is different on the other side of it.

So if I could just and, and hopefully people have followed

this far and if not, we can cut this part out, but I think it

would be a misunderstanding of forgiveness and reconciliation

to articulate that my relationship with God just went

back to the way it was. Well, no, it hasn't.

Like if I've been forgiven, if I am being reconciled to God, then

my relationship is in a different place now than it was

before that reconciliation. Yeah.

OK. And that's what I want people to

hear. So forgiveness and

reconciliation doesn't mean that your relationship with the

individual just goes back to the way it was before, because

that's a broken place. It has to be different.

It has to be better. It has to be in a a a more

loving and more faithful recreation of relationship that

God has designed us for. Yeah.

If it's not, then I think there are some questions to ask, like

is it really forgiveness and reconciliation?

And are both parties working toward forgiveness and

reconciliation? Yeah.

And what are the boundaries that you need in place in order to

help push that that relationship into the healthiest and most

reconciled place? So it's not simply, and this is

what I want people to hear this whole rant is it's not just

going back to the way that the way things were before, because

we all know that the way things were before wasn't good.

Yeah, because obviously there was a there was wrong and there

was harm and there was hurt and there was brokenness.

So. And so the whole goal of

reconciliation isn't to take the relationship back to the way it

was. The whole goal is to make it

more like God's reconcile the relationship between him and

humanity and ultimately what it will be in the new creation.

So it's we're working in, in that correction.

We're not trying to get back to the way things were.

One, OK, one other wrinkle, because reality is full of that

like agreed that that is the the ideal life is not always ideal.

So I, I'm, I'm going to tease out a situation just in my own

life without, without getting, getting too much detail or you

know this, you're not my therapist.

This is not a therapy session. Yeah, public therapy podcasts

would be a horrible. Idea terrible so bad, but but

just to sort of like wrestle out that kind of that idea of

reconciliation always, you know, yes, it ought to be different.

Sometimes it may not be better and it may just be different.

And so, so I'm thinking of a situation in my life over the

years where where there was harm done, where there where I was

the wounded party. Years later, I set up some

boundaries and, and was not in relationship whatsoever with

that person for a season or that was I made that conscious choice

that I need to this is, this is an unsafe relationship that I

need to separate from. And since then there's been, you

know, lots of communication and, and I would say forms of

reconciliation. But at the end of the day, the

other party has not done their job.

I've done my job. I've done my work.

I've, I've, I've expressed and lived out forgiveness and worked

toward reconciliation. The other party has not done

their job. There's no one that anyone

knows. So it's fine, great, but but it

is like one of those one of those situations where our

relationship exists. It is, it is a it is there, but

it is not fully reconciled. It is, it's different.

It is, it is semi reconciled. And that's sort of that the

tension that I think partly we run into into our in our broken

world where it it takes 2 to make that happen.

And yeah. Yeah, I think that you, you

again without, without going, we don't want to go too far down

the the specifics of this situation.

I think though, even in the way that you've retold the story,

you start, I start to ask questions around, you know, does

does this person understand rightly what repentance is?

Because if we understand repentance as a changing of mind

and a changing of action, like there's literally a changing of

of course, so your mind has to change.

You have to think differently about the thing and you have to

change your direction of lived out life like your, your, your

actions also have to change. So you know, there's, there's

two different words in the New Testament for that kind of

repentance. There's one that is like a a

changing of your mind. And then there is one that is a

turning and walking in the other direction.

And I think that part of repentance actually, and part of

what the New Testament challenges us toward is that

both of those things are true. Your mind has to change and your

actions have to change. And if that's not happening, but

then that's not repentance. It might be partial repentance.

It might be some of the way there because like this is also

the difficult thing about faith is that it's not 100%

immediately. Like you know, it can take a

long time. 20 years from now, this could be very.

Different. It could be a very yeah, but but

I do think that what I encourage people to do is guard their

measure of. So yes, you're you're called to

forgive. What I think is clear is that

the repentance is required. And if that repentance is not

evident over not just like it's this isn't just saying I'm

sorry, right? It's not just yeah, sorry, I did

that. No, this is.

This is. I am deeply sorry.

And we're going to work together to figure out how that doesn't

happen again. Yeah.

And you help me and I will help you Like, again.

We don't wanna put the put. Don't put the burden on the

person who was harmed to, you know, make it better.

But like, I think part of repentance is to say is, is

having the willingness to say, um, I recognize the wrong that

I've done and I recognize my actions need to change in this

situation. O you know, as they don't

change, you have full weight and authority to say, Hey, this is

the thing we've talked about this.

Like that's the level of, of repentance.

It's here's what I'm committing to.

Here's the evidence that you're going to see.

And I hope and pray that you see it over the long run.

But if, if that's not evidenced, then then I, I really wrestle

out the OK, what's the weight of the is it an apology?

Hmm. Because that's also different.

Or is it true repentance? Yeah, where someone is saying,

no, I'm understand that what I've done is harmed you and

you're going to see my actions change because of the death of

my understanding. Yeah, so.

So I think that where where you don't see that, then I think the

conversation rightly should be OK.

Well, what boundaries do you need to have in place with an

individual so that you're not just constantly putting yourself

in harm's way again? Does that start to answer it?

Yeah, yeah, I know. I think so.

It's it's man. It's this is messy.

Life is messy. I think we've actually like in

we, we didn't directly answer the individuals question that

was sent yesterday, but we actually answered all of it in

in the course of our conversation just through the

nature of of this. But anything left on the table

that you want to touch on? Two things really briefly #1 if

you want to read a book on forgiveness, just to help your

head kind of get there, like if that's the part of you that's is

wrestling it out. Timothy Keller's book called

Forgive is a really good resource.

He talks about in that book, and this is what I did want to

mention two two things that are required for forgiveness and he

talks about more, but the one being inner poverty or humility

being required to forgive and the other which we don't talk

about often enough, I think he calls it inner wealth and that

is the the love of God O in. Generosity and.

No, no, like in the internalized love of a God who is more loving

toward you than you are to yourself.

OHP that's beautiful. Like that's the so so

forgiveness has to come from this place of, yes, inner

poverty or humility. It has to come from a place of

like recognizing that you are choosing to suffer.

And I think that's like that's the language, right?

So to forgive somebody is to choose to suffer and instead

say, I will not, I will not work for retribution.

I will not try to get from you. I will not hold it over you.

I will not try to make you feel the same measure of pain you've

made me feel. It is to to to eat it right.

It's to say I will take it. It's not right.

I'm not going to put up with it. But I am willing to bear the

suffering for your sake. So that requires humility.

You can also only do that from a place that is deeply loved and

you like. Forgiveness is possible when you

realize, yes, how much you've been forgiven, but the love that

that carries and it comes from a place, a deep understanding and

experience of God's love over you being vastly more important

than even that individual's love for you, right?

So you can say I am secure in my knowledge of God's love and my

experience of God's love. And from that wealth, inner

wealth, I will choose to forgive you because I don't actually

need the quote love that may or may not come through this act of

forgiveness and reconciliation. What you're saying is the the

storehouse that I have is from. God, there's a groundedness in

that there is a groundedness in your and security in your

relationship with God and and the knowledge of who you are

that that will say like, I don't, I don't need that.

You know, forgiveness from you would be nice or reconciliation

from you would be nice or apology would be nice.

Restitution would be nice, but I don't need it you.

Know so if you want to read someone who wrestles that out.

So Keller will be good for your head.

Henry Nowen will be good for your heart.

Life of the Beloved, there's so many, so many books of his that

really are helpful. So that's number two.

So, so check out Kelly's book for your head.

Check out Henry now and for your heart.

And then Justin behind you is Henry Cloud's book.

So Cloud and Townsend wrote a book on boundaries that we give

out all the time. And it's on the bookshelf.

And I don't know that you can see it behind Justin on the

bookshelf, but it's here. It's literally right there.

And that is a good book if you need to start to wrestle out

what boundaries look like in your life as you work toward

forgiveness and reconciliation. So boundaries with friends,

boundaries with spouses, boundaries with ex spouses,

boundaries with parents, adult bound like adult children,

boundaries, boundaries with, with, with like it just he

covers a whole lot of it. And it's a good primer for

wrestling at what healthy boundaries can and should look

like. So three resources.

But I think at the end of the day, what I want people to know

is it does, it requires humility and it requires, um, wealth,

this inner wealth, an understanding and experience of

God's love. And so if I could end that way,

I think that's what we're gonna be praying for you this week.

Yeah. Is that you would know an

experience that inner poverty, what it means to be poor in

spirit, what it means to know your need for God and what it

means to be loved vastly beyond you could imagine or quantify by

that same God from that place start to allow it to impact your

relationships. O thanks for listening.

Thanks for watching. We hope that this finds you in a

good place this week and challenges you to have more

conversations like Justin and yeah and family out for a walk.

Love that. And yeah, we will see you in the

next episode.