The Parable of the Wineskins

The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that he's called us to live. Everyone, welcome to the Cultivate Podcast with The Grove Church.

I'm Charlie Loften. I'm the lead pastor there, and we are here with

Bagel Boone. Bagel. Bagel. MC Bagel. MC Bagel.

How's this how does how's it feel? An hour or two episodes in, you kinda like DJing and

Honestly, helps me focus 10 times more.

Really? Only I've seen some headphones.

Yeah. Also sounds really good. Okay. No Echo is just honed in. It's now we need to get Mark.

There's so many people that say Mark has the best podcast voice really deep and rumbly, you know, and so I'm sure if I had these in be like, who movie narrator or narrator, right?

Well, we are

still in parables.

No, you say it differently than that.

We're still in parables. We're still doing some parables. Yeah, man, right?

So that's I don't know if I told you this, but I've been listening to a bunch of church history podcast. Yes, I was going to excited about and I was listening to these these group of guys and they were, you know, it's this this church history event that I've been really researching is not only one of the most important things in church history, probably one of the most significant events in Western Western history, this battle that Constantine won in 03/14. Anyway, so I'm listening to these guys. They're not coming out from a Christian perspective at all. And I've noticed listening to these podcasts, there seem to be two different kinds of

Tom Holland podcast, Tom Holland, the historian, not

I've heard of that one.

It's really good.

Was confused by it. It's like and it, you know, and they and they kind of narrated these acts of history and a little more acting and I was like, the fact that that the name was Tom Holland,

I know

and they were acting like there's acting involved. I was like,

I have a book by Tom Holland right now that I'm reading and but

it is in fact not Spider Man.

Right. It's my roommate was like Spider Man wrote a book about Church history. It's like, yeah, man.

So there's there seems to be two different kinds of podcasts, especially when it comes to history.

Yeah.

And the first one is. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Roman Ancient History podcast.

And

today we're going to be talking about Constantine the Great.

Very navel gazer.

Yeah, just just very like you can imagine this guy probably a tough hang, but really smart. Yeah. And then there were these guys.

Yeah.

And at one point, they just went off at two different times on two different kind of five minute rants, rants, side chat, whatever about horses, how they hate horses.

Oh, why?

And then also how interesting would it be to read war from a horse perspective? Like if horse had their own horcipedia, like Wikipedia, and this is a horse's perspective, people ride horses into battles, you know, thousands of horses dies, and no one seems to care, then we go from that to, but actually it's okay because we hate horses. And it was sure and then and then all of sudden and back to Constantine. Yeah. Okay guys.

Fall

a little bit in between the

I would

want the Mongolian horse history. Oh, yeah, a 100%. Have you seen those guys ride sideways on them to attack?

Yeah, I know what you're about

insane. Absolutely insane. Also, there's a clip. I'll send it to you later of Steve Carell on a podcast and a caller calls in to say how much he hates horses that have bangs. He's like they look stupid and then Steve Carell's like what a weird thing and then he sees a picture and he's like done for

agree now.

Didn't know. But yeah, you're right. So have

very strong opinions about horses actually. Well, now that we're here. Yeah, I'm allergic to horses. I used to think I was like, there were certain thing that I was allergic to. Outside but only at various times is like one time like I was at Camp War Eagle and walking around with Leila and we of course at one point we went to the horses.

Sure. Then I had some real bad allergies and I was like, I'm just walking around camp, I'm assuming it's any number of outdoorsy The very next week, I got allergy tested, which was planned anyway, and it turned out I'm allergic to nothing outside. And the only thing that I was allergic to that day,

horses, not for this horse. Have you ever ridden a horse? Yeah, and you were fine.

Late stage allergy. I'm 54 years old when you when I say that I have ridden a horse

when you're cow far back. Do you think that goes? I would assume as an El Dorado, but I rode some horses in Brinkley, Arkansas.

It's it is it has been probably at least thirty five to forty years.

Yeah, that's really sad though.

I know. I'm not sure why it's sad. Anyways, we are.

What do you think about cops on horses?

I don't feel like there's a great answer to that question.

I feel like it's wildly ineffective.

So it's what you're trying to accomplish, I guess

and where you are need a horse for though.

Where are you like in a park

get like a moped

in a park?

Yeah, not a moment. What are those things that like you can mall cop wrote it? You know, what are those? I feel like if they rode that in the park, you'd get anyone but you know, a horse, there's certain space limitations that are going to be happening.

I feel like we shouldn't lie to the people here. We paused. Yeah, so that I could look up the answer is segue segue. Was stuck in my brain, but I was not going to be advanced until we got past it.

I just feel like you're anywhere and there's a horse chasing you. There's a lot of ways to get away from that. If someone's coming at you with a Segway, that's such an easy dismount than to like a park ranger could have a horse. That's fine. Like

I don't think Segways are as fast as you think they are

but you're closer to the ground and you could dismount

really easily. Also being on a horse is probably a lot more intimidating than a cop coming at you like segue like super low

for my I feel like they get super fast ones.

Okay, this will have to what I have to share this idea with that podcast. I was listening to

okay,

and and I'm my guess is oh, yeah, we covered that already. You just you just have to

already thought about

these have to listen to our podcast about Marcus Aurelius and at minute 17, talk about wine cups where I ride horses, but we're not talking about that today. Are on the Parable of the Wineskins in Matthew chapter nine. And so to set the stage, we were just in Matthew chapter seven, ended up the Sermon on the Mount with Jesus saying, listen and live, don't listen and die. And wow, he's got so much authority. And then as I said, that Jesus didn't want to make a transition to establishing who he is.

We've established His teaching and they're astounded by His authority. And now He's doing a lot of healings. He is casting out demons. He healed the centurion servant from a distance, which like, one thing to do a healing miracle right here. It's another thing to do long distance healing.

He

calms the storm, which is next level. So he's doing all these things. He's getting to the point where now he has somebody was he's about to heal somebody and says, hey, your sins are forgiven.

And

so it will you can't you can't say that and it's like what's what's what's harder? Tell a paralyzed guy to walk or to say sins are forgiven. Just so you'll know though walk and he stands up and walk is like

I don't think we give enough Credence to what it would be like to stand in the presence of one of those happening, right? Like I think you would be like stupefied.

I think it's a little bit like again, not to just keep coming back to this horses.

No,

our trip to Rome and and and Greece and you're just kind of walking and it's like and this is where Julius Caesar is buried and you're like, wait a second. I guess that is a real person. And if he lived, it was somewhere and if he was buried, it was somewhere and it's here. It all just seems more real. It's not that I don't believe that Jesus literally healed people, but it can still feel like a story.

But to be like,

No, that really happened.

And to see it, to see somebody who had been paralyzed their whole life just suddenly stand up. And it's crazy to me that after seeing all of that, that the Pharisees are still like, don't think I like this guy. I think we got to do something about this.

It's all weird about that.

It just goes to how much of a threat he was to their power and authority, but that is still not what we're talking about today. So heals the paralyzed guy, ask Matthew to be one of his disciples. And so we're learning a lot about Jesus, his power, his authority. Take a little break here with Matthew, and he's like, he's got a passionate heart for sinners. Go back to the centurion, he's got a passionate heart for Gentiles, which is different.

So he's he's we're painting a complex picture of him and enter in some disciples of John the Baptist.

Okay.

Verse 14,

they've been following him this

whole time. The disciples of John the Baptist. Well, I'm sure they've been around been around long enough to kind of keep an eye on it. The fact that they are described still as John's disciples make it sound like he hadn't they hadn't quite made the jump and quite made the leap yet. Okay, even though he's like

famous for pointing to Jesus, right?

Hey, I'm here. I gotta I gotta go down. He's gotta go up. You should go follow him and

and they're still

like, he's still got he's still got some guys,

which I

have lots of questions about. Yeah. Why would John be like, I'm actually going to start? I'm going to start farming now. So I don't even know why you guys

are hanging out.

What's he doing? Like, what's he doing? Right? Questions. Yeah.

Okay. We can put that in the podcast. What were minor characters doing during this event? We could just figure that, try to figure that out, like what the church lore

is around

Church lore around things, things that were happening at the time of the Bible would be really interesting to me.

This is like not important.

Actually, we did a research project on that in college. Some of the legends that were birthed out of things that happened like during the Gospels and during Acts that came or come up with later in the Catholic church. Actually, if you study the history of Peter, you'll know that Peter did it. And it's just a story that they essentially made up in order to justify their position on a particular theological controversy at the time. Yeah, it was.

It's surely there's not that much written about those random guys other than the Gospels because not like

they were like, there would be later reflect ions on them.

But not like that. Not like people are following them at the time.

Yeah, there's not like some book, some biography on John the Baptist, right? Right. No. John's Disciples verse 14 Matthew chapter nine. Then John's disciples came and asked him, how is it that we and the Pharisees fast often, but your disciples do not fast?

Jesus answered, how can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, then they will fast. No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out, and the wineskins will be ruined.

No. They pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved. My first and immediate thought to that is how frustrated must have those disciples of John have been

by the answer to

that question. It is one thing for us to try to reflect on and we will like, what was Jesus really saying? We've given enough time and distance from it and learning more about Jesus and all these things like, yeah, I mean, it can become now obvious to us what He's saying. But again, you don't have any church history, you don't have any post resurrection or crucifixion knowledge, you don't really have a very well, you don't have any developed Christology at all, except for, at a minimum, John the Baptist saying, Hey, this is the one that we're waiting for. So you have an inkling that this guy is probably the Messiah.

But you're skeptical enough that you're asking a pretty direct question. And that you are still being identified as John's disciple.

Right. Right.

Okay. And you say, okay, the Pharisees, they fast. And we do. We fast. Why don't your disciples fast?

And he goes, man, you party while the bridegroom's with you, but eventually their bride the bridegroom's gonna get taken away, and then they're gonna have real reasons to fast and besides who puts a new patch on old pants or puts new wine and old watch it. You can't

do that. I feel I imagine John the Baptist Disciples looking over at Jesus Disciples and they're like and they're like, I don't know, don't know.

Imagine kind of nodding behind him and then in there.

Actually no idea. Yeah, like the what I just but I have multiple questions. Okay. Bridegroom is the husband right in the marriage ceremony, right? And they're probably like what do you like?

Are they leaving for their honeymoon? Why would they be taken like they would have no context that this is probably meaning like him leaving after resurrection. The

bridegroom is Jesus. Yes. So then by implication, the bride is the disciples. Oh, and while they're together,

uh-huh.

You know, and the fact that he uses bridegroom instead of husband, imagine that you are still in the the party season, right? You know, you know, however long the receptions would last or however long what we would call the ceremony the receptions the

the

the honeymoon, You just imagine that window of however long a period of time that was of just kind of celebrating during that period of time. No one's fasting, you're not fasting.

When the party's going on.

At the wedding reception, the bride certainly isn't. We're partying. And then he says, but the bridegroom is about to be taken away from them, which is a really confusing addition to the metaphor. Because who took him?

Why?

Like that's a trash tragedy. He is foretelling a tragedy that you don't anticipate and doesn't make any sense. But eventually, the bridegroom is not going to, but eventually we'll have to go back to work and then it's time to get back That's to normal not what he says. Eventually, kind of go, gotta go back home and get back to business as usual. That's not what he says.

Yeah, this

is the bridegroom is going be taken

and then you'll mourn

and then you'll mourn. Yeah, like what

what wedding is this

what happened like what like why and so again, we

can say that we can go to disciples,

obviously, during the first coming of the Messiah. Had to die on a cross the suffering servant. It's in Isaiah guys, but I mean, I mean, he they were so far removed from that. None of that would have made any sense to them, right? A minimum, maybe maybe they could have caught.

He's talking about. Okay, the disciples while they're with Jesus.

Maybe but he calls himself the bright green.

Yeah, maybe maybe you catch that Mike. No.

All right, then hop down. They're putting wine and skins,

right?

Like that's gross. Well, I mean like the only context today of why not being in a hard shell is like getting a box wine, but I think that they even all that's why there's a bag

in there.

Well, I know, but the box wine, there's a bag, but if you just received a bag of wine, that'd like, oh, so they put it in a box to cover up the bag. So this

sounds really gross. Something culturally that you have decided, but the fact that you could make, you know, cases of sorts of things out of, we'll just say instead of saying skins, what if I said leather? You can make some, you can make sorts of things out of leather and that you can, canit's not like they just cut the skin off a cat and put wine in it, mean, it's not like that, I mean, skins, I mean, the wine is what it's called, like you're something and things that had, you know, done not only then, but for hundreds and hundreds of years after that of using, you know, what we would now call leather to make items that you would you can wear that you can use

so they'd show up to the party and be like, I got the wine.

Yeah, what else were they going to have?

Like a vase? Yeah, so it's the kind

of it's, it's the kind of thing that like what's just it's just an easy way to yeah, Tim with now they use, know, these barrels that they put the wine in and to allow it to ferment and have a much more potent advanced reaction. But for them the process that they would use was to put it in these new brand new skins, but then as it's fermenting and changing the skin itself has the flexibility and change to be able to change with it.

It's that's what he's saying that it stretches when it Yeah, stays as in they their build long a new stretch

and move over time, as opposed to something that has been used a while, has already been stretched out and worn. If you put new wine in there and then it starts to change, it's going to be so brittle it changes. And so, that would be for them one of the advantages of using wineskins, because it allows it to ferment while it's in there,

right? Okay. Okay. Cultural differences, right?

I mean, they're not firm. We're not be even after all the advancement. The wine isn't fermenting in the bottle. Right. It is once it has gone through that process, and this is the process they use by which you take new wine and then turn it into drinkable wine.

You put it in the skins, it allows it to ferment, it changes its composition while it's in there, and then the skin can kind of change with it, that makes it now the drinkable wine, and it doesn't have to be gross because of the process by which they treat it. It's not like, kind of smells like, kind of tastes like sheep. Ew.

I just now think if any beverage was handed to me in a sack, I'd be like, I'm not like to

the One age of of the things we have established over the course of this podcast is your inability to live in any generation other than the

one one hundred. You were born Like, yeah, without a doubt. I'm not too I mean, embarrassed there to admit

no such thing as any sort of real sanitation or plumbing or

anything like that disgusting

that the fact that you're drinking wine out of a cured animal skin would be the least disgusting thing that happened to you that week.

I don't know. I would probably starve and die because I just be like, I'm not drinking that.

Forget the end. I mean, I obviously if you time traveled anyways, but the idea is that again, put you put, you know, you don't put an old patch on new pants because again, new pants are

still stretching.

There's a mismatch. Okay. An old rigid patch can't cover up a new hole on a new pair of pants because it's still stretching and expanding and that would just pop off and be brittle. Same sort of thing in skin. You pour wine into an old wineskin and as it ferments the thing would just explode.

And

so there is a mismatch in quality or type to the point to where you just can't you just you can't do that. So I get I mean again, I think mismatch is probably

the best way

the best way for you.

So he's saying that he's a mismatch.

Well, what is he's we I mean, again, from the disciples perspective, nobody knows what he's nobody knows what he's talking about.

And it's also very talking about old

way of approaching spirituality in a relationship with God. The only way a very again, it's two thousand years later, a very works based approach approach to spirituality. They order for Peter and James and John to be spiritual, they must fast. Now they're with they're with me. And now you're trying to take this practice that you say is necessary when really the only thing that is necessary is me.

They have more than what they need right now. They have everything that they need. They are as connected with God as one can be because they are connected to me. I am I am the new I am the new wineskin our I'm I, you know, I and you're trying to take

so what of John's disciples or the Pharisees? Were they fasting of the end goal to get closer to God?

Yeah, I mean, it was it was high levels of commitment and obedience that determined your status of closeness to God, right? And he's saying it is actually relational closeness to me. You're trying to combine a rigid legalistic approach with the newness of life is actually found in its connection to me.

Which

he has not said in any way, implicitly or explicitly up until this point. The closest is what we said last week where he was like, he speaks with so much authority. He is showing a lot of authority, but I would not say that we have gotten very, very, really close at all at this point to a grace based approach. I mean, he's talked some about they have more access to God than what they think. We've talked about that in this podcast about God is nicer than you think you have more access than you think and how mind blowing that would have been.

But at this point in the story in Matthew chapter nine

to be confusing.

Would definitely

feel like it would be confusing. To the extent of fasting for the good points versus fat when he's telling them they don't have to fast because he's there but fasting because that makes me closer to a relational point. To where, like, them thinking, like,

don't what is they're hanging trying to with think in relational terms.

But, like, him saying, like, what is having time with you have to do with fasting? Where he's like, well, that is the point because they're with me. There's close as possibly could be with me again.

If we're talking about what they understand.

They didn't

get a disciples of John are just like, why even I know this guy's not even white. Whose idea was it to come here and even ask this guy, right? It would have just been they would have just been confused. But what we can say is what you're trying to do is put me into your old model, which is life is about obedience and rule following. And if you try to put me into that, it explodes.

Because what I'm doing is something very new and what you're talking about is old and busted.

But he kind of answers it in two states. Like he's essentially saying, I'm here, so don't even worry about the question that you're asking. But yeah,

a sort of answers a sort of answers it in the first part. They're not fasting now because I have everything that they need with me. There's going to come a time when they're going to be in a really difficult place. And these sorts of disciplines will help them. But your whole approach why you would use the fact misguided that one must do this in order to be stay in God's favor.

That is an old idea that is old and crusty. Yikes. And if we take what I am and the new thing that God is doing now and put it into that, it's just going to explode. So you need to just be thinking about everything new in a completely new way. It's not that we're doing away with fasting, but what you're talking about is old and done.

The motivation too.

Yeah, the motivation and the reason behind it. I must do this in order to maintain favor with a God, a harsh God who is watching me closely and judging me based on my relative obedience at any given time. That's an old idea. It was never right. But it's again, it's just it's an old it's an old crusty pair of pants is what it is.

And it

just did it used to be like a weekly thing like Sabbath for them?

I don't that we have a high level of indication at this point like that there was some necessary regulation, but it does seem like based on what these guys are saying and just kind of their generalized approach. It seems to have been a very, very regular.

Okay,

and they've been following Jesus long enough now

to observe that he's not seen

to a scene is like, man, it seems like those guys eat every day.

That's a lot of watching.

It's a lot of watching. But I would imagine you notice it more like, like the first day you're fasting and you're there with them as like, man,

it's they're eating.

That's great that they get to

eat. Yeah.

And then next day, and then you're eating with them the next day. And then whenever it comes back around a week, two weeks later, and you're not eating is like,

they're

still eating probably somewhere around my third go at fasting. I'm like,

come on. You saying

I So can skip what is happening here? These guys are good. We're good. You're not good. Why aren't your followers good?

Okay. So they're not necessarily practice.

We would you would never you would never fast during a party. Okay, they're going to come a point where they're not at a party and then within the want to. But your whole worldview is wrong, actually.

So do you think that they're coming to him because they're interested because they see his Authority or do you think they're like, I don't know you if you're as good as John thinks you are

supposedly next level, but you seem to be failing basic level. Okay. How can you be the one that we're building? Like we've we've got this and now we're you're helping us build on that. Well, you're not even you're supposed to be the one that teaches us calculus.

And you don't even seem to know how to count. Is what is up with that? Yeah, and it's like, well, I mean,

so they're more so questioning him.

Like, yeah, like we know that following this discipline this way is essential to godliness. You're supposed to be somebody but your disciples don't do that. I doubt it was coming from a perspective of, man, they have to fast. We have to fast. Looks like your guys don't even have to fast.

Let's join that team.

Why is that?

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't get it. It's kind of like a tell me. Yeah, because I think Jesus answer would have been different. Would have been like, you know, seems like everybody else but your guys have to fast.

Don't what's up, man? Why do you guys why do you guys have such freedom? I think it way of really was we're all meeting the basic you're not even meeting basic standards. And yet you can do all these things and you speak with such Authority. Why are you not doing it?

He's like, again, it's a two part answer one. They're there with me. It's party time metaphorically and your whole philosophical approach to God is just old.

And

it's done for we're doing something. We're doing something new now. Yeah. And so you need to need to wipe your old approach. Again, he doesn't say we're not going to fast anymore, in fact, specifically says they are going to fast someday.

So, here's the seasonal reason, but also, I question the premise of your question. I don't like the premise of your question. The premise of your question is wrong. Here's, I don't want to say why, theoretically, and here's why.

It's kind of a bummer because there's not, well, maybe it's later, but there doesn't seem to be a passage afterwards where the disciples are like, okay, but like, really? What did you mean by that?

Yeah. So they're standing there behind Jesus going right. He's had his own skin. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then they and then I'm the disciples of John walk away confused and Jesus kind of turns back to him and they're like,

I'm like, wait, why haven't we fasted?

So I didn't have the question before, but maybe I do not. Why don't we fast? Why just sit? No, you went all.

It's a it for real like a normal person

who's the bridegroom and what does this have to do with Wineskins?

I've never thought about them being the bride, but I guess that does make sense and like they're the person the person would only mourn once the bridegroom had left, which would be them.

Yeah. And so it's a pretty it's a fairly common metaphor and we'll see some more parables later where Jesus is the bridegroom People who follow him are the bride or and we'll see more of that's pretty common. Paul uses it. Ephesians five husband, wife, Jesus Church Parallels. It's it's fair.

It's a fairly common one. And again, it only makes sense in this context for the disciples to be the to be the to be the bride because, you know, again, why why is the bridegroom being taken away and obviously describing such a tragedy be a tragedy to to the bride. Yeah, it's not just he's not just saying it's like the people watching the wedding and then the bride and groom left,

right? Now

you are in grief, which in that that that seems to point to a Jesus as bridegroom disciples, his bride.

Have you talked about his departure up to this point?

Now, is again, there's no one who heard this. Any idea what he was talking about.

But had he started talking about it at that point? Okay.

They're they're the in each one of the Gospels, at least Matthew, Mark and Luke. There's a very distinct transition point when starts, he starts to talk about it. And the whole tenor of the Gospels

There kind of

are different points in there, you can kind of see it. It was like, one of them was like, from this point on, face was towards Jerusalem and it just kind of, the whole narrative begins to shift. But we are still in the upward momentum of who even is this guy. And then we kind of reach this pinnacle. Here's who I am and here's what I have to do.

Then it starts to decline towards the tragedy. Yeah, at least from that particular narrative,

Well, the only other feedback I have on this one is linguistically bridegroom seems silly to me.

Instead of just groom. Well,

I work a lot of weddings and if I the whole entire day referred to the bride as the bride, but the groom as the bride's groom. That'd be so like, yeah, we get it. He's connected to her. Just call him the groom.

It would seem at some point linguistically. We decided that we

should just we just cut it off.

We'll just we'll just shorten it. We'll just short.

He's just the groom, right?

All right. Well, is that's the insightful point that we're going to leave on. Thank you as always for your great questions and riveting debate and linguistic analysis horse talk. Thank you guys for joining us as always really glad that you're here encourage you to keep coming back again. We're a little bit more than halfway through got several more parables that we're going to cover and love for you to keep joining us and we would love to connect connect with you on a Sunday if we haven't.

You can find us at the grove church dot org and find out everything about our services. There's a form you can fill out to let us know that you're listening and tell us any way that we can help you, any questions you can have. Either way, we would love to connect with you in person and online. And so glad you're joining us, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Cultivate Podcast.

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