Marriage Q&A - Leaders' Talks

You're listening to the road with Pastor Teacher Steve Holt.

Let me tell you something.

As you discipline your children, you provide boundaries for them.

You actually give them more freedoms and securities because they know that you love them and they know that they know that you want the best for them.

And so we shouldn't be afraid in any situation, biological or not, we shouldn't be afraid to discipline our kids because we think they might not like us.

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For more information on The Road, visit theroad.org.

We hope you are encouraged by today's message from Pastor Teacher Steve Holt.

Welcome our panel this morning and let's get started.

So, you guys, building lasting relationships is the name of Clarence and Brenda's ministry because that's what they do.

So it's not just marriage, it has to do with just having relationships that are authentic and real.

So we've been together now for about 24 hours, and it's just been fun.

We go way back, Clarence and I do, and in the process of that, it's been great to get reunited in a way and then do this ministry time together because you've come to AIM and spoken there, but it's the first time we've done this.

But one of the things that uh Brenda and Clarence brought was a special, a really delightful and special message on communication and conflict resolution, how to uh know the difference between hearing and listening, etc., um, in relationships.

And I was so fired up about it that I thought that we should have them back at a later date to actually do a sermon.

I think it'd be cool for you guys to do it together on that topic.

I mean, everything you had there, and I'll show you, Clarence, when we start communicating about how we do the whole covenant of harmony.

And then I thought it'd be great for a whole church to get that.

Because you guys know, how many of you had, let me just say, I know none of you have had any conflicts in your relationships, but if you'd be willing to say that once you have one, would you just raise your hand?

All right, there you go.

So um, so we wanted to start off actually this morning with conflicted relationships.

How do we restore those relationships?

And I'm gonna swing it to you guys.

Well, first of all, I didn't do it in the first service.

Steve, you know, thanks so much for having us, you and Liz and and uh and Vince.

And you know, we've just been overwhelmed and so grateful for the just the love you guys have showered on us.

So I just I just don't want to be remiss and not say this.

So thank you so much.

All right.

Uh if you want to read the question, I'll I'll answer it or try to.

All right.

The first question.

When working on effective communication using our spouse's style, how do you avoid one or the other feeling unheard or unseen?

And then the second part of that had to do with uh the other party being unwilling to honor the differences and maybe being less open to that open communication.

Well, I think it's really important if we understand the nature of scripture.

I'll just read from Philippians uh chapter two, I start at verse two.

Uh, well, ver I I guess I'll do verse one.

It says, if there's any encouragement from belonging to Christ, any comfort from his love, any fellowship together in spirit, are your hearts tender and compassionate?

Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another and working together with one mind and purpose.

Number three, don't be selfish.

Don't try to impress others, be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself.

Don't look out only for your own interest, but taking interest in others too.

You must have the same attitude of Christ Jesus that Christ Jesus had.

You know, in marriage, to have a great marriage or a dating relationship, you really got to put the other person first.

So it's really about serving the other person, not taking and getting.

And as you serve the other person, then hopefully they'll reciprocate and do that.

So I think it's really important you serve each other.

And the other thing is, as I counsel couples, it's a you know, we need to sort of have a holy boldness, not an arrogance.

But I think sometimes we think in Christianity, if we don't say anything, that's being Christian.

And I don't think that's necessarily the case.

So if you feel you're not being heard, just say, honey, um, or snookums, whatever you call each other, uh, just say, I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't feel like you're hearing me.

Uh, can can I share that?

And I think that's there's nothing wrong with that.

It's not being unspiritual, it's not being selfish.

It allows her to say, well, help me understand how, what it what does it mean for you to be heard?

What does that look like?

Then we give her or our or him or our spouse a target to how they can hit that target.

So I think it's really important we do that.

You know, I think as we look to serve other people, and I know the question is, what do you do when they don't?

And we really can't control the other person.

So, you know, first of all, I would say the focus needs to be on your own response, your own reactions, and I completely agree.

You know, Clarence and I don't have any secrets, and if one of us is not happy, the other one is gonna know about it really, really quickly.

But but we do that not to start a fight or to fuss or complain, but so that we can have that openness and so that we can work together to resolve the issue.

And so if you're the one that's not being heard or felt being heard, then absolutely you need to be the one to speak up.

But from the other side, you know, part of this relationship is it's not the 50-50 thing that the world teaches, but it's 100% giving.

And in the in the whole premise of the five love languages is the loving the person in their language.

Yesterday we talked about communication styles, right?

It's communicating in a way that they can understand.

And sometimes that's hard, sometimes that takes work.

And even between us, the things that Clarence needs and appreciates and feels valued in are at the bottom of the list for me.

And so it's work for me to love him in his language, and vice versa.

The things that make me feel loved, my communication styles are very different from his.

But because he loves me, he takes the effort to communicate in my style, and vice versa.

And so if you're the person who's not necessarily wanting to see it the other way, because we want to be unselfish, and things that he read in that verse, then we want to make sure that we are it's not just all about us.

And just last thing the key to communication is not winning an argument or persuading your spouse or person you're dating to do something, it's understanding.

And if we understand, that can often lead us to agreement, but the key is simply understanding.

Wow, good stuff.

They gave a whole talk on this, so there's so much more to it, just really a thumbnail sketch to it.

Um in the first service during worship, and I always feel like this when I get something that it's for both services, and when I shared it, a lot of people came forward.

I didn't talk to you guys about who you prayed for after the first service, but the people we prayed for were all related to that word about shame and about past guilt and regret over people's life.

So I want to just speak that out here.

It's not one of the questions that I felt like during worship, first service, God was saying, and a number of you here are coming this morning, and this will be for you online.

And heck, if you want to get in your car and drive here by the end of the service, that's fine.

But um, I want to minister to people, I want Clarence and Brenda to minister to people, Liz and I want to minister to people, who you are carrying guilt.

You're carrying regret because of past mistakes.

Now, those mistakes may be within your current marriage, or they could be another relationship you were in, or there's something that's become a stronghold in your life because it hasn't been dealt with.

And you just keep having that lingering guilt, that lingering regret in your life that is hindering you from going to the next level in your relationship, the next level in your life.

Guess what?

Everybody's got a little of that, but some of you have it in a pronounced way, and that's why God's saying that this morning, that when we're done here, we're gonna come down to the front and we're gonna be available to pray, to break that off, to start a breaking process of setting you free.

And the passage that came to mind, turn in your Bibles if you have one, is 2 Corinthians 7.

2 Corinthians 7 really explains the difference between godly sorrow, where God's doing something, um, and then kind of worldly guilt.

Um, because one leads to death, one leads to more bondage, actually, and the other one leads to freedom.

So look at verse 9.

So 2 Corinthians 7, 9.

Now I rejoice that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance.

For you were made sorry in a godly manner that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.

For godly sorrow produces repentance, leading to salvation.

Not to be regretted anymore, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So there's a difference, you guys, and demonic powers, um, your own flesh is wired toward bondage, it's wired toward death to keep you shackled down.

And God has rewired you.

You ought to jot that down.

You've been rewired in your heart for freedom.

And you mentioned Genesis 1, 27, uh 26 through 29, and one of the answers on here in the first service.

But you are made in the image of God, you guys, and you are made to have dominion.

And the first dominion that you have over your life is you.

You have dominion over your heart.

You do not have to stay in bondage, you can be set free.

But here's the deal: you've got to confess it.

And 1 John 1 9 says, if you confess your sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from what?

All unrighteousness.

And so that's what he does.

But you have to confess it.

So I don't get the mystery of the relationship of how God has given us the free will and the sovereignty of God perfectly.

Theologians have been struggling with that for 2,000 years.

But the reality is we know that there's this there's this core image of God within you that recognizes, with the help of the church, that I've got a stronghold.

And I'm just saying this morning that I believe God wants to set you free.

And that freedom comes through confession, not just to the Lord, but also to others that are bloodstained allies in our life.

So I want to just encourage you that you can walk in freedom.

You do not have to carry the past with you.

And you you actually quoted a, he quoted Isaiah 43, 18, and 18, which is clearance, that's one of the that's the theme verse of this church.

So you ought to just share that again.

I thought that was good.

Well, as I was listening to Pastor Steve speak, it just came to me in Isaiah 43, 18.

Uh, if we've asked God for forgiveness, we've confessed that, then he says, forget all that.

Forget the shame, forget the past.

It's nothing compared about what I'm about to do for you.

And then it says, I'm about to do something new, which I really like.

And then verse 25 is just really cool.

I think if we don't understand this, we may have a false spiritual pride.

You know, if God forgives us, we should be able to forgive ourselves.

And it says in uh Isaiah 43, 25, it says, Yes, I alone uh will blot out your sins for my own sake and we never think of them again.

And that's God our Father speak to us.

So I just I think that just confirms what Pastor Steve is saying.

And a little phrase I have, if I can remember it, is don't let the pain of your past punish your present, paralyze your future, pervert your purpose, because you have a godly destiny.

So I think if you keep that in mind, don't let the pain of the past dominate you, okay?

Focus on the present and going forward.

Because I think what happens is you've got a present problem right now that you guys are trying to work on.

Everybody has those things happening.

But if what I'm talking about is that lingering doubt.

There's like this lingering doubt if he only knew.

Really, that's how you define shame.

Shame is that there's something in your past that you're carrying that if you shared that with someone, they would, you would lose the you might lose the relationship.

And so you've hidden it.

It's hidden, it's secret.

And God wants to set you free from that and begin a process of true freedom.

So, Clarence, you want to take that next one on the next page.

Uh, the next one says, uh, what do you do when your dreams and your spouse's dreams are complete opposites?

Uh, who has to give up on their on theirs?

Uh, first of all, if we are trying to be uh servants in our relationship with each other, uh possibly both dreams can work.

It may be praying about these dreams, God, these dreams from you.

The second thing is, God, if we both are having these dreams, which one should we prioritize?

So I think it's more asking God for directions what to do.

And in fact, they're complete opposites, or it's pretty normal.

You know, Brenda and I are radically different.

And so, and the differences, you know, really kind of what attract us to each other.

So I think that's not a bad thing, but I really bathe that in prayer.

And again, if we have a servant attitude, I want to really focus on Brenda, especially as the male, and be a servant leader and say, What's God telling you?

Because God can speak to me and often has, especially when I was pastoring through Brenda.

So I think we need to work on that.

Or she might say, No, I really feel my spirit, we need to follow this verse, you know, what God's telling you.

So I think it's talking, listening to God, and praying together is just really critical.

Yep.

So the next question I think is perfect, it dovetails into that, and and Liz and Brenda, if y'all want to join in too.

How can we find unity when we have different ministry anointings and callings?

Let me just rephrase the question.

You will find unity if you recognize that you have different anointings and callings.

Because you just do.

And I don't want to marry, I didn't marry someone who's like me, because if two people are exactly the same, then one of them's not needed, right?

And so I believe in a complementarian relationship with each other so that Liz brings this side of her that God has formed in her, that God has not formed that in me.

And so when I recognize and I love and I appreciate and I even elevate that anointing in her, it actually makes me stronger.

So let me just say, serving your spouse is selfishness.

It is.

I mean, you're you're you're you got a smart selfishness if you realize that by serving your spouse, it's gonna go well for you too.

And so there's something positive and beautiful about recognizing what God's done in that other person and then working together in complement.

I mean, athletic teams are that way.

You know, the guy who's the guard, he's not the forward.

The guy who's the follower is not the center, you know, and uh and so every sport is built around teamwork, and so that's to me that's like a teamwork question.

And so to be a powerful team recognizing each other's gifts.

Anyone want to add anything to that?

I thought that was pretty good.

I thought that was really good.

All right, so Brenda, you get the next one.

I like it when they don't have anything to say.

I'm just it's just it was they were dumbfounded by how perfect what I said was.

But no, you guys add anything to it.

That's what I think.

I'm very practical.

We have to say that we're not gonna say anything, so this question In a blended family, should you discipline your spouse's kids or let the biological parent do the disciplining?

All right.

So we're we're not in a blended situation, but we understand the difficulties that can come with that.

I mean, oh my gosh, we're we know just the difficulties in parenting, period.

You know, just with our own biological children.

And so the first thing that I would say is you as a couple should be together on what that discipline needs to look like.

You do that behind closed doors, you do that apart from the kids, and the two of you have an agreement as to what even the discipline should be, or how you go about it, or what your philosophies are on that.

But I would suggest that at least early in the relationship, that it be the biological parent that lead in the disciplining.

I think that other parent needs to work on the relationship with that child, and and not to the exclusion of being the parent, but I think that the biological parent probably should take the lead on that, at least initially.

Now, as that parent, I think you need to be careful not to be afraid to do that.

I think a lot of times in what I've experienced with couples who have talked to us, they say, you know what, I feel bad enough that these kids are in this situation, I feel bad enough that, you know, I've brought this other person into the home, and I don't want them to not like me anymore.

I don't want to lose their love or their respect or whatever it is.

Let me tell you something.

As you discipline your children, you provide boundaries for them.

You actually give them more freedoms and securities because they know that you love them and they know that they know that you want the best for them.

And so we shouldn't be afraid in any situation, biological or not, we shouldn't be afraid to discipline our kids because we think they might not like us.

You know, our daughter came to us as an adult after being an educator and being in the school system, and she thanked us for the discipline that we provided for her.

Because she's looking at these kids in the classroom, and she knew how she was.

She needed that discipline.

And she said, thank you for not letting me be that way.

Your kids need that.

And so, as you, as a biological parent, um I used this illustration before, you know, sometimes we feel like, well, you know, there's there's I don't want them to, you know, feel like that place is has been replaced in my heart.

When I go to eat, no matter how full I get, there's always room for dessert because that goes in a different place, right?

Your kids have a special place that no one or nothing else is gonna fill, and they need to know that.

And by you disciplining them, it's not meaning that that place has been filled by something else.

I was gonna just chime in as a child that was in divorce.

And one of the things I just wanted to say about parents that find themselves in that situation is one of the best gifts you can give to them is to try to be friends with your former spouse.

Um, I think that was a big gift for me.

I didn't I didn't think I appreciated it enough when it was happening.

My mom's passed away, but my dad's still alive.

But what they gave me was that um mom and dad could come to events without fighting, without weird things going on.

And that was a huge gift for me and my brother.

Um so I want to encourage you, unless there's abuse, try to be friends with your former spouse as a gift for your children, because they have enough stress as it is, and children are always, I'm gonna say it, even as an adult, you're always going, well, I think it was their fault, and that, you know, and they have enough of that going on.

And so just to say we're gonna be friends, and we can be at your events that mean a lot to this family without all the complications.

Okay, someone texted in, will God restore my marriage?

And uh that probably comes from someone with an aching heart that feels like God can't restore their marriage.

And if you got your Bibles, look at Luke 4.

So look at Luke 4.

And this is the mission of Christ.

And so, of course, we believe that God can restore any life, any marriage, any relationship, because this is the mission.

So before there was Stephen Covey, there was Jesus, and he gave us a mission statement.

And here's Jesus' mission statement The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor.

He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those who are captive, recovery of sight to the blind, and set at liberty those who are oppressed.

And you know, guys, um, there is not one marriage situation, there is not one extramarital affair, there is not one illicit relationship, there's not one drug addiction, alcohol addiction, porn addiction, that God, if He's invited in, can't come in and do this very thing and set the captives free.

And so wherever you are in your relationships and all the mistakes you may have made.

You may have to reinvite Jesus in.

In other words, you're saved.

You have a personal relationship with him, but he wants to actually come into those strongholds that you've never let him in there.

You know, God, I just love when Jesus says, Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength, your neighbors yourself.

Now, how many would admit that you've got some dark places in your heart?

Raise your hand.

Yeah.

All of us do.

So he's saying, Love me with all of your heart.

Now, you all just raise your hand because you recognize darkness in your heart.

So if you're supposed to love him with all of your heart, that means you're loving him even with dark areas that he's working on and he still accepts you.

And he still loves you.

And that's a kingdom of God revolution.

And so you gotta love your spouse.

You gotta work on those areas.

You gotta battle, you gotta war for that relationship, and God will restore it.

Will it ever be perfect?

No.

But it can be so Christ-like that there's righteousness, peace, and joy.

That's what Romans says about the kingdom of God.

It's righteousness, peace, and joy.

Isn't that exciting?

Alright, it's it's great.

It's good.

So, Clarence, you got the next one.

Okay, the next one is I'm going through, currently going through divorce, and I'm so sorry for anybody who's going through that.

Uh it's just a one-start dating again.

And let me say this for singles as well as uh people who get in divorce.

If you've been blindsided in a relationship, you're in high school or older, um, before you start dating again, make sure that you've healed emotionally before you go into a new relationship.

Yeah.

Make sure, you know, I tell singles, I have this book called Single and Free to Be Me, and it's for high schoolers all the way up to anybody single, never married or divorcee.

And here's the deal, I I say if possible, I even talked to them, you know, have an exit interview.

You know, meet for coffee in a public place, not trying to get back together, but simply saying, you know, what happened?

You know, if it's if you had no idea what just tell me what happened.

You may not agree with what they say, but at least it gives you closure and you start beating yourself up and trying to figure out what did I do wrong in this whole process.

Uh, if you're um divorcing, you think about getting dating again, have a support group, your family, a close friend, someone is church that you can talk to and make sure that you don't hate that other person.

If you still have an animosity to wear it towards somebody else, or every time you think about you think about that person, you're really not ready to go into a new relationship because you're carrying all this baggage in there, okay?

But if you're healthy, then go for it.

Then it says, How do I protect my children, myself and my children?

Well, you protect your children, you do not introduce other individuals to your children until I would say almost you're engaged or something.

Because your children, because you like and will like them, and then if that person's in and out, then that that child becomes confused and they're they go up and down, they're wounded unnecessarily.

So uh my friend uh Jeff Shears, who wrote a book together, um, What All Dads Should Know, and he talks about that being in a blended situation.

So that's one way you want to protect the quality of life of your children.

How do I ask the right questions?

Uh, when you're dating, everything is fair game.

I think sometimes we're embarrassed if I ask this question that he or she won't like me.

It's better they don't like you now than get married and they don't like you, or you don't like them.

So ask those questions that come to mind.

It's not unchristian or non-Christian to ask questions that you need answers for.

So ask everything that comes to mind.

In fact, assume nothing and talk about everything.

And uh, let's see, I would like to get married again, so I just feel damaged.

You know, Pastor Steve talked about shame.

We have to realize that God wanted us, that God created us, that God gave us his DNA because we're in his image, and that God blessed us, and we have a godly destiny.

So we need to really focus as Christians on self-worth, not self-worship.

That's critical.

You know, when I played basketball in college, I was really good, I was really quick, I wasn't the best in the world, but I had self-worth.

I knew I could do the job.

So we need to have a balance of self-worth, how God's created us and wired us, not self-worship.

And I think that helps us to go to a new relationship with a healthy perspective.

Bro, that's like good.

I mean, that's like really good stuff.

Have self-worth, but not self-worship.

Yeah.

Is that is that from you or you uh I mean that's really good.

I mean, that really is in an in a nutshell, that captures the battle we have with culture, where it's all about me, versus you gotta have a good image of God view of yourself, right?

Well, yeah, because you know, this some guy gave me a long time ago, because unfortunately I have these ego issues, but but when he said self-worth, there's certain things you can do, he's gifted to do, and you can do, I mean, you have jobs, you can keep your job because you can do the job.

That means you're the best in the world, but you can do it.

But our tendency, at least my tendency was to self-worship.

Yeah.

And then that's that's idolatry.

Yeah.

And so, but if but if I don't have self-worth, then I'm really, in a sense, putting God down.

I'm saying this creation is no good, and I keep putting it down, and if I want to get a relationship, I put tremendous pressure on Brenda and anybody else that they have to sort of perform to make me happy.

And and that's not fair to them.

You know, God should make me happy.

I should be happier with her, but it's God's job to really make me content.

So that's something he gave me that just makes sense to me and it works for it.

Isn't that good, you guys?

That's really good.

Okay.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Preach at Clarence.

Okay, so Liz, this is gonna be for you.

Um this is the easy one.

This is so easy.

Thank you.

How do you know when your family size is complete?

I'm not answering that.

No way.

I already told you guys, you know, many times that making them is a lot more fun than parenting them.

Okay.

All right.

How do you know when your family size is complete?

I'm gonna just give all the questions and then you can figure out how you want to answer it.

Did you both have a peace about it?

If you decided to allow God to bless you with a larger family, and this person said more than four or five, we're in a kind of a Mormon community around here, so I can see where they get that.

Um what all went into that decision?

What thoughts did the Lord give you around that decision?

Okay.

Well, I I just I felt like God wanted me to say something, so I'm taking a turn off of that, and I'm not trying to avoid that.

But I feel like what God is asking me to say in this group is that sometimes Valentine's Day is very difficult for singles because we um we've just exalted some some romantic thing about it, and um actually those of us who have been married, we know that it's exciting, but it's a lot of hard work.

So um, but also I wanted to just say that God raises up powerful single people.

I I'm just hearing this from the Lord that Elijah was probably single, John the Baptist, and one of my heroes is Anna, the widow in the temple.

And I just want to say to all of you, singles, God has a great plan for you.

He has an amazing destiny, he can use you so powerfully in our culture.

And sometimes people who either have been divorced or they um or they're they've been widowed, they're like, I think we have to help them realize you are you you are complete now because God is with you, and you don't need to look around for that next person if it's not God's will.

And so I just want to say that, and we've talked about the fact that that you know we want to die together, but if we don't get to, and I have to be a widow, I cannot wait to be an Anna, and no one's gonna take me that away from me.

I was so excited to just spend time with God and listen to him and hear his voice.

So that was that was a uh tangent.

Okay, back to the easy question about the um about how to choose how many children to have.

Like, okay.

Um I walked in here and Steve said, You're doing this question.

I and I had like uh three minutes to think about it.

And I was like, oh that thank you.

Um so God did download something for me.

And it it is um, I'm gonna answer this in a politically correct way.

My politics is that I am trying to, I'm having a fear of the of God revolution.

So I want Jesus to be Lord over all my decisions.

That's what that means.

So that means that He's gonna tell me what He's gonna do.

Um and I just want to say that some scripture that came to me, I was looking at it this morning.

Um it's John 16.

And hopefully this sets y'all free, not like, oh, there's a there's a formula here.

Um but it's um it's uh John 16 or 13 through 15, and it says, However, however, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not uh speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears, he will speak, and he will tell you things to come, he will glorify me, and he will take of what is mine and declare it to you.

All things that the Father has are mine.

Therefore I said, He will take of mine and declare it to you.

I mean, think of those words in there, declaring, he's gonna teach us, he's gonna guide us.

That is a God who speaks.

You know?

There um so laying our plans, like to me, a fear of God revolution is when you say, I don't have any plans.

What are your plans, God?

I'm doing what you tell me to do.

And we believe he can talk to us, whether it's through other scriptures or other people or uh some other fashion, like he's gonna tell he's gonna tell us.

And if you think about that, it's powerful, a fear of the God revolution.

In I hope we all have one.

I'm having one because I want that.

And what that means is when you have a fear of the Lord, it's a beginning of wisdom, fear of the Lord, beginning of knowledge, fear of the Lord, hate evil, fear of the Lord, fountain of life.

You cannot go wrong when you put Jesus as Lord.

So I just say put Jesus as Lord over that, let Him speak to you, and realize, even in the Bible, that you know, there's a lot of different family sizes.

You know, Noah had three sons.

Um I'm just looking at some of the ones I've looked at lately.

Noah had three sons, and um Isaac had two, and um uh Jacob had 12.

So this is all just a God thing.

And it I will say this one last thing about peace.

I don't think chill like looking at how children act will give you peace and thinking, I want more of that.

I just personally don't.

Hell I um, and then when you look, when you Google and you find out when you find out how much it costs, there's there's like websites that tell you how much it costs to raise a child from zero to eighteen, it's like two minimum two hundred and fifty thousand.

That just is not gonna give you peace.

I'm just telling you.

Um so I don't I just don't think we look at any of that stuff and we hear God.

Um also I want to tell you this other thing because um it's it's deep on my heart.

You know, the the family size you ha choose to have is not just about you because it's about generations.

It's about impacting this world.

And if you haven't gotten God's wisdom on it, you better get God's wisdom on it.

And if you haven't, and it's too late, God's never late.

But I say we just let God do this because I don't think there's any peace about it.

Don't even I I wouldn't even think about that.

And I think God, when He when we obey Him, because in uh Hebrew the word for obey means to listen.

So if we listen to God, then you're good and do it.

Yeah.

So there really is something to this God being in control thing, because I did have a plan.

I I did have, I knew what I wanted.

Uh from a teenager.

I wanted two kids, and I waited until we were married.

Clarence and I have been married for what, six months or something, and I was like, I think we should start having kids.

And he's like, What?

We just got married.

But God had a different plan from mine, because we went through two years of infertility, trying to have a child and not being able to.

And and so I had to really learn a lot about waiting for God's plan.

And that guy that she's talking about, you know, I I thought we knew, I thought we had a plan, and and it was different from his.

The timing was different.

And so after that period of time, and and and honestly, some heartbreak and frustrations and disappointment during those times of wanting something and it not happening.

Then God said, Okay, you want kids, we'll give you kids, and he gave us twins.

Did not see that coming.

And then those babies were 10 months old and we got pregnant again.

I'm like, okay, stop.

Almost, almost like triplets.

And and I'm like, okay, so first of all, there went my plan for two.

And second of all, right there together like that.

And so there is often a plan beyond our own.

Now, one more thing I want to add to that, and and this actually Vince um brought to our attention uh during after the first service.

You know, as we're talking about having kids, and and kids are a blessing from the Lord.

And and you're right, you can't look.

If our third child had been our first child, she would have been our only child.

Okay, I'm just saying.

And that's the one who thanked us for disciplining her because she knew how she knew how she was.

But sometimes we think kids are the answer to everything.

We think we're in a bad situation, kids will make it better.

Let's just have a baby and that'll bring us closer together.

And so we do warn you or caution you against that.

Because, one, that's not what kids are for.

But two, then in some senses, you're putting pressure on that kid, just like you know, Clarence was talking about with each other.

So work out your differences between yourselves, and don't think that a child is going to be the answer to that.

Yeah.

I had one quick thing.

I just heard this miracle story from a good friend of mine, and I didn't know her story.

So her husband had a vasectomy, she had to have an ovary removed, and at 41, she has one ovary, and the husband had a vasectomy, and she got pregnant.

I love that story.

She's and she does too.

So well, I don't know how to segue out of that one, but um that's like kind of hard.

But Clarence, we didn't cover this in the first service, but look at that last one, and I thought you should take that.

You've been in some situations where you've helped a lot of men and women in this arena.

The last question is uh talk about the roots and dangers of fantasy in Christian marital and marital sexual intimacy.

How much is reading pornography and how can that be destructive to true intimacy?

Um, I talked about this in my marriage book uh that's out there, uh Keeping Your Wife Your Best Friend.

I got addicted to pornography uh while I was single.

And I thought, well, when I get married and I met Brenda, I say the pornography will stop because I'll be intimate with my wife.

And it didn't actually carry it into my marriage.

And so for a total of 11 years, before marriage and after marriage, I was addicted to pornography.

And uh I was actually a preacher in the in the process, and it was really, really difficult.

And and I remember um someone came up early to me today and said, Well, how'd you stop?

And and the way that I stopped was that I was I got tired of the cycle.

It's not a sin to be tempted, but I got tired of giving in to the sin, then acting out as a result of the sin, and then as soon as I acted out, I felt immediately dirty and guilty, and even though I asked God for forgiveness, not feeling forgiveness, feeling unclean.

And the only thing that seemed to make me feel better was time.

And so you might think, well, I have my devotional time so many days in a row.

And the thing about God's forgiveness, you can't earn it.

And God's forgiveness is not about feeling.

And so once I got tired of that cycle, uh, what I told a young man today was that I had to learn to make um non-emotional decision about a very emotional temptation.

And that's good.

And the other thing that that's that helps me, because it's it's not a sin to be tempted, because I'm still tempted, but I don't give in to it because I look at God's been so good to me, I don't want to mess that up.

Yeah.

The other thing is God's so good to me because he loves me.

You talk in Hebrews, he will discipline me for my sin.

Yeah.

And if I'm caught up in pornography, then that messes up the intimacy between Brenda and me.

And intimacy is not just sex, it's closeness.

And so when God delivered me that day, and it was kind of miraculous because he delivered me and that was it.

I I didn't look back.

Uh, the first thing I knew I had to do because I had a public meeting, uh, I hadn't told Brenda, I had to go home and tell Brenda because I didn't want to hear from somebody else.

And so I I drove home and told her, and she was very gracious and forgave me, but that's the hardest thing I ever did.

And I don't ever want to do that again.

And my buddy said, Well, why'd you tell her she didn't know?

Because I didn't want anything between us.

I didn't want to be hiding something in the room, and there's three of us there, not the two of us.

Yeah.

Or four things, you know, God, us, and then my issue with pornography.

So in my book, I share some safeguards that have been successful for a lot of men.

And and and here's the deal, we think it's just men.

It's huge globally, it's about 50%.

You know, people think it's just men now.

It's not, our culture's radically changed.

It's not just men involved in pornography.

So, so so keep that in mind, but you can have deliverance, you can't have victory over it, but you really have to walk with God, have some kind of accountability, uh, and I think it's important.

And I even tell guys, even mark your calendar.

Every day you say no, mark that calendar so you do a physical thing, you see it, and that that helps you.

And it and I've helped men who've been addicted as much as 60 years, past or stuff like that, and God's turned them around.

And um, and here's the key, and I guess I'm talking too long, but here's the key.

You gotta get into God's word, but more important than get in God's word, you have to get God's word in you.

And so for for restoring for restoring marriages and getting people to defeat pornography, I have people actually memorize scripture.

Yeah, and when they're memorizing scripture, they and the Holy Spirit can talk, they learn to become dependent on the Holy Spirit, not me, and God does amazing things.

It's it's incredible.

So uh so that's what I would share with that.

But there is some safe, there are some safeguards in the book.

Uh, if you go out there at the resource center and grab that, it it will help you.

And if you can't afford to buy the book, just tell me and I'll give you the book, okay?

So I I want you to have it.

I think it's that important.

That's so good.

And you guys, as we close up here, I know that um many of you in this room probably struggle with pornography, male and female.

It's it is the issue, you know, of our day, and it's so easy and it's so accessible that we feel shame about that.

And so probably Steve, can I interrupt you before I forget?

I have uh a QR code that if you want to get it, it I have a landing page, just deal with pornography, some videos and some some helps that could help you.

But if you want that again, that's free.

So I'm not sorry.

So that's where I was going, is to say I really encourage you to get Clarence and Brenda's material out there.

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