Live It Out Podcast – Real Life: Week 9

Welcome back to Live It Out a podcast.

We are in the last week of series,

Real Life

Jesus, His Kingdom, and You, Tim Boobar. What's

going on today, dude? Let's do it. Let's

record a podcast. Let's record a podcast. And

while we're here, we have microphones in front

of us. Yeah.

In this studio setup, thanks to one Jess

Jones.

We found that out lately. That's a recent

discovery. Yeah. Did you know that? I knew

it. I I mean I mean, no. I

didn't know it before. I know it now.

Out on a circle. Right. I think, man,

did I know it before this moment that

Jesse Jones, production director, Two Rivers Church,

is is not only just cool with, he

preferred to go by Jess. Yeah. It's sort

of been, like, his I think his typical

His typical nickname or thing. Yeah. Short name.

Yeah. And we were all shocked and and

awe. And now he hears that we're talking

about it, and he doesn't like it. Looking

at us. He's looking at us. So, yeah,

I'm gonna tell you if you if you

like the sound effects,

tell Jess,

hey, dude. Awesome. If you don't like the

sound effects,

don't say anything.

But he's given us some new ones that

we get to drop in today. Alright. So

it's gonna be fun.

Hey. This weekend, we did talk about,

the topic of forgiveness. Now forgiveness is one

of those things,

super easy to say. We started talking about

that. Easy to say. Well, forgive.

Really hard to do, but even more than

that, it seems so simple and yet it's

really complicated. And so real life with Jesus

in his kingdom

is fueled by grace, demonstrated by forgiveness. It

really in this teaching in chapter 18,

the culmination

of of this

teaching,

hey, who's the greatest in the kingdom? And

Jesus says,

it's those who enter into the kingdom like

a child, humble, independent. Right? And those are

the ones

that are great in the kingdom. So the

people who are in the kingdom are the

greatest in the kingdom because in order to

enter the kingdom, you have to become like

a child. And then he goes on to

describe that life. And so over the past

two weeks, we saw that. Saw it played

out last week

that as, Jesus left off with talking about

the shepherd who goes

the week before into last week, Mark talked

about

how

how is it that we,

pursue people, really what it is. Right? Like,

what's got reduced to church discipline

Right. Is really the pursuit of people, which

is kind of funny. I mean, for years.

In fact, we invented, like, a

we invented, like, a verb. Yeah. What is

it, Tim?

The the infinitive form is to Matthew 18

or to Matthew 18 someone. That's really what

it is. So Yeah. So what if they

got Matthew 18? Did somebody did they Matthew

18 you?

That's what that was that's what you said,

actually. Yeah. And so now it's like, oh,

yeah. Now it it has all kind of

variations because it's now, like, okay. Did they

did they actually forgive you? So,

once again, it is it's one of those

things

that is,

man,

it's far more complicated

when you start

digging into it.

And I think starting applying to real life

situations.

Like that kind of digging in, really. It

does. Right.

Because

this parable

just

I mean Okay. One of the things I

really liked about this section through Matthew,

Matthew 13 · chapter mention

chapter 13 into 18,

is,

it just is.

Like, you don't sometimes with scripture, you have

to work through the nuance, and and we've

learned that some places along the way. You

know, like, okay, what's the location? What's that

communicating? And all those kinds of things.

And you have to to cross the cultural

divide.

And in this one,

it's it's really

it's really as simple as it appears Mhmm.

That, wait a minute.

You've got things all out of whack. You've

been forgiven,

yet you

you

the debt is insurmountable,

yet you won't forgive someone else. And it's

it's still a debt, and it's still a

it's not inconsequential.

Three months wage. Right?

It's the the debt that somebody has against,

the other, you know, the

the first servant who was forgiven.

This weekend mentioned, you know, somewhere between $1,314,000,000,000

dollars worth of debt,

which I didn't comment on this weekend. It

it like, if we're gonna really pick apart

and over over analyze the parable Uh-huh. We

could be like, wow. Well, that was really

a a terrible

king that gave him that much credit. Let

him get that much in debt. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's just a perfect it's just

a perfect example of,

doing things to

a a parable that we should do. Overcooking

the parable. Overcooking the parable. Yeah. All I

had to say though that that it is

this,

hyperbolic

distance between the two examples. And we talked

before. Often I think we have.

I get confused sometimes.

K.

We have so many conversations. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

What did we say

on the podcast? What was said in a

sermon? What was said in the hallway? Yes.

That kind of thing. Yeah. Or what did

I just walk into your office and sit

down and unload?

What was the one this week?

Hanukkah. That was the one this week. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Just sit down and dump it

all in your mouth.

I'm a verbal processor.

It yeah. I need I need that. You

don't believe what I learned about Hanukkah. What

the Hanukkah?

Yeah. Anyway, all that to say,

oh, that would be cool. Maybe in December,

we can do a podcast on Hanukkah. Yeah.

It just came to me right now. Okay.

Let's do it.

Let's go. Let's do it. Okay.

All I had to say,

when you when you come to this text,

it's the ultimate mirror. And we talked about

that this weekend. It's just pick up the

mirror, look, and go. If

if

you if you have this

space and place in your life where if

somebody

offends you

or they do they do something, it is

an offense. It doesn't mean it's it was

insignificant. It could be a really

significant thing. But you're like, I'm not gonna

forgive you because you don't deserve it.

The question of whether or not you believe

the gospel actually comes into play. Yeah.

Like, do you really grasp the gospel?

Because

the amount of forgiveness that you've been given

Right.

Should change your perspective on forgiveness. Right? Like,

yeah. It's all it's like it's not a

rule about you're not allowed to be forgiven

if you don't forgive. This is the way

I I kind of have been thinking about

it. It's not like so much that it's

a rule. Like,

well, this is the rule. If you don't

forgive, you can't be forgiven. It's like if

you can't forgive someone because you don't think

they're they're worthy of forgiveness, then you probably

have not

grasped

what God has done for you, and that's

the issue. Yeah. Yeah.

And so we talked about how we're called,

to cancel offenses,

not track them. Mhmm.

What an anti

worldly approach.

Right? It it's just totally

contrary to the world,

which then,

for us as followers of Jesus, we should

say, wait. If it's contrary to the world

system,

that likely

sounds like the kingdom of God. Because it's

the world's upside down.

Jesus came and he flips things upright.

And upright looks like

instead of tracking how many times a person

has

wronged me,

I'm I'm canceling offenses as they happen.

Crazy.

It is crazy, and it makes,

everybody

a little nervous

because

it sounds

dangerous to live that way. It kinda you

know, like, either

you're gonna

either you're gonna get yourself into trouble because

you're gonna forgive somebody who needs to be

who shouldn't doesn't deserve forgiveness, or you're gonna

make me feel really bad about myself because

you're way more forgiving than I'm willing to

be. You know, like,

when someone is that's that that I mean,

I just think that happens a lot with

the way of Jesus. It is countercultural enough

that

it ends up sounding

disconcerting

because it's not

it's not normal. Right. Yeah.

So I I recommended, Keller's book, Forgiveness.

Difficult title. Forgive.

You know, forgive. That's what the book is

called.

Why should I and how can I? And

he talked about in it that it does

forgiveness actually does cost us something. Mhmm. We

have to

it's not just like, oh

oh, no big deal. It means wait. There's

a there's a real offense that happened. I

was

harmed

maybe really in a physical kind of way,

but definitely

in a

emotional,

kind of way. There's a weight to it.

There's there's real damage that was done.

Instead of exacting payment from another person, I'm

willing to take the payment upon myself.

Mhmm. And that's

really starting to connect it to the gospel.

And so we really did, this weekend, emphasize

just out of the gate, this is complicated.

And because it's complicated,

use the parable as a mirror,

but don't stop there. Go through process.

In other words, if if this is something,

like, you're you're like, I have this issue

from way back in my history, and I

still haven't forgiven.

And I know I need to, but I

can't. And all that like,

reach out for help. Yeah.

Right? Right. Because it's complicated. Like, I mean,

you like,

human,

mind, heart, emotions, and experiences are complicated,

and

relationships are complicated, and this gets into all

of that. So, yeah, don't just try and

go, well,

nothing I can do about it, or I

can just figure this out. Yeah. I think

being able

to be humble enough

and maybe desperate enough to say, I I

need somebody to help me sort this out

is really important. Yeah.

Because then

it's one thing just to say it is

a

it's a spirit empowered

kind of thing. That it's, you know, hey,

you can't do this. We we know that.

We can't follow Jesus on our own. It's

only through the holy spirit that we're born

again,

made a new creation in Christ, empowered by

the holy spirit who's resident within us,

that we are a new creation. And so

if we're going to forgive that kind of

way, it is a spirit empowered kind of

thing.

But that's one thing to say, hey, I

believe that that's factually true.

But it's another thing to actually

do it. Whereas we talked about forgiveness as

a journey with Jesus empowered by the spirit

over time.

That's, I think, where we need a lot

of help.

Because forgiveness begins with a decision, but it

doesn't end there. Mhmm. It's a it's a

beginning. I I decide. Yes. I know it's

forgiveness, and now I have to let that

play out over and over and over again.

I have to

stay at it over and over and over

again as it as it transforms

me, actually Uh-huh. Over time.

I had somebody say to me recently, it's

something they learned was, like I can't remember

exactly what it is. But it's, like, it's

one thing to forgive like, you can forgive

someone for,

I can't remember the terminology they use. Basically,

you can forgive forgive someone for the

action they did,

but then it's another thing to forgive them

for the, like, the con the results of

that action.

So I can go, I okay. I forgive

you for that thing you did, but then

I suffered consequences from that. And I still

am. And

that's another process is now

I forgiving you for how I have felt

or what I've gone through since that thing

that you said or did. And that really

does it was helpful to me because it

just highlighted that how much of it is

a process with Jesus. And we should I

think when you hear Jesus

say

to Peter, you know, yeah, you're gonna

forgive your brother over and over again. And

when you hear this story, you should say

forgiveness is the living in forgiveness is the

right way to live. So I should say

that, but I also shouldn't say,

oh, I can't do that, or I did

it and I'm done. You know, like,

to agree with Jesus is to agree that

I think that there's a process to it.

Yeah. Yeah. So I I wanna read a

little excerpt

from,

Keller's book, Forgive.

And

it it's about what forgiveness

is.

So he the the book itself,

I just introduced it. He used a quote

to kinda set up the idea of forgiveness.

But,

in the book, it's in particular, the whole

book is kind of about this parable that

Jesus tells about

forgiveness

here in Matthew at the end of chapter

18.

And here's what he writes.

When someone seriously wrongs you, there is an

unavoidable sense that the wrongdoer

owes you.

So this is what he's saying is why

why Jesus uses the parable of debts.

Is it there's there's been something. So okay.

Said it this weekend. This parable isn't about

money. It might apply. It might apply to

a money situation, you know, but this isn't

about money. It's not about

literally forgiving debt. It's a parable. He's making

a point about the forgiveness that we extend

to other people.

So the wrong has incurred an obligation, a

liability, a debt. Anyone who is wronged

feels a compulsion

to make the other person pay down that

debt.

We do that by hurting them, yelling at

them, making them feel bad in some way,

or even just waiting and watching and hoping

that something bad happens to them. Yeah.

Only after we see them suffer in some

commensurate

way do we sense that the debt has

been paid and the feeling of obligation is

gone?

This sense of debt slash liability

and obligation is impossible to escape.

Anyone who denies it exists

has simply not been wronged or sinned against

in any

serious way.

Forgiveness means giving up the right to revenge.

And that's I actually used that quote this

weekend,

but all that to say,

it's complicated.

Yeah. And it's something that we can go

wait.

Because it's something, like, you you run it

through your mind, and you run it through

your mind, and you run it through your

mind.

And if it's been a serious offense,

and I write just referred to and I

didn't mean to be overly generic this weekend,

but

the details of the thing aren't aren't important.

Mhmm. And it happened a long time ago.

But but the level of the wounding was

significant. The level of betrayal

was

significant.

When someone says,

Hey, you're here

at our church, talks you into taking a

job,

says,

literally straight looks your wife straight in the

eye and says, You have nothing to worry

about. As long as I'm here,

we will take care of you. Looks are

dead in the eye.

And at the time, it's like we had

other options. We got other things we could

do. But, like, okay,

this is what we're to do.

And,

you know, just over a year later,

it's radically different than that.

And and not only that,

denied that conversation

at dinner

ever happened. Mhmm. You know, like, of course

I never said that. I mean, radical, radical,

radical. It's far worse than that. All that

to say,

that wasn't something that I got over in

a week. Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, okay.

I guess I'm I'm cool.

It really was over a few a span

of years that I had to

reckon with. And it wasn't always at the

front of my mind. It wasn't always there,

but I had to wrestle my way through

it. And

because the person had wronged me,

in particular,

it was connected with a church and

he's a Christian and I'm a Christian and

it's connected to church work. It it got

even more

convoluted

in the sense of,

well, God, why did you do this to

me? And that gets complicated. Yeah.

So then you have to to go, okay.

Wait. Over time,

how am I actively

pursuing forgiveness?

And once again, it's not something maybe that

was always at the front. It was initially,

it was always at the front of my

mind.

But eventually, over time, you know, you're like,

okay. You move on and it's a year

later. It's two years later. It's three years

later.

And you realize you're still maybe not fully

embracing the forgiveness

that Jesus is teaching here in Matthew chapter

Matthew 18 · chapter mention

18. And then you have to go, okay.

Wait.

Where where is that? Holy Spirit, what are

you doing in that?

And it led to a situation where

I didn't even know in the back of

my mind

that I had a question. Like, I I

I would lead to a point where I

finally felt like, okay, listen. This is I've

forgiven him. I've forgiven him. Like, I think

we're good. You know? I think it's played

out, and I can't say it was, like,

on this date, at this time, or whatever.

But I was like, no. I think

I think this is it's no longer a

thing. Mhmm. And

then to run into him at a conference

and

be like,

wow.

It's real. Because because I didn't have any

of

the the feeling indicators. None of the like,

I wasn't uncomfortable.

I wasn't,

I didn't feel anything welling up within me.

There was no anger there. There was no

residual anger. Because that could go either way.

You could see him at the conference and

go, oh, I guess I haven't forgiven this

person. Yeah. Yeah. And so then, like I

said this weekend, when I walked away and

I really saw it as a gift from

God. First off, that, like, it would, it's

not like, oh, yeah. That's I'm gonna run

into him. I went to this place and

he went to this place,

you know. This was years later. I had

two jobs later,

you know. Like, the scenario had radically changed

and

I was like, wow.

You know? Like,

I hadn't I had come to this point

too where there hadn't been like I probably

hadn't had conscious thought about it for a

while. Mhmm.

And but I I realized walking away in

the back of my mind, I I kind

of had always had that question.

I wonder what would happen

if I saw him, if I ran into

him. Yeah. Could I talk to him? Could

I be kind? Could I smile? And I

was like,

my goodness. And I really did see it

as a gift from God. Yeah. Like, it

it took a span of time to get

to the point of saying, okay, wait. Not

not just,

hey, am I am I okay?

But no, legitimately,

I think the forgiveness

is ultimately,

not just about what I'm extending that person.

It's the transformation that it brings to me.

And

I think that's where we're missing it often

when it comes to forgiveness

is

we're not grasping that.

And you mentioned that, you know, of course,

the span of time and that it's a

process. And so when when Jesus says at

the end of this parable, so also my

heavenly father will do to every one of

you if you do not

if you do not forgive your brother from

your heart.

You know, it's it's that's pretty heavy.

So what about the timing and the like,

so

how do I know if I can't forgive

someone now,

or I haven't forgiven someone now? Am I

is Jesus ready to is

is is his father ready to

Smite you?

Throw me into jail with the torturers?

You know, like Yeah.

What do I do today

knowing I oh,

I'm not there yet?

I'm gonna steal a baseball phrase. Okay. And

once again, this is now we're just into

opinion.

There's not I can't go to, like, a

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is using baseball.

Embrace

the process.

I believe that if you embrace

the process

in other words,

I don't want to forgive him in my

heart, but I want to want to forgive

him in my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

And

I wanna get to the place

where I forgive him in my heart. Mhmm.

I wanna be obedient to Jesus

above all.

Jesus

life in Jesus' kingdom

is where my allegiance is. And because my

allegiance is

following Jesus

in his kingdom,

I that's the life I want,

and I'm willing

to pursue

Jesus

in order to see

that happen, and that's gonna require

that I have to confront this offense,

and I have to work through the process.

Is that helpful? Yeah. It is. And it's

the difference between, like, oh, I

it's the the difference between

I need to

try to hate this person less.

Right. And I need to go through this

process of understanding better and believing more

what God has done for me and what

he's forgiven me of. And it just it

reminds me of,

you know, a verse that

comes up a lot, I think, for us

in

in Titus chapter two when

Paul writes, for the grace of God. The

grace of God has appeared,

bringing salvation for all people,

training us to renounce ungodliness,

worldly passions, and to live self controlled, upright,

godly lives in this present age. Like,

it's God's grace showed up to and and

it's it is training us. God's grace is

training us. So, of course, it's a process

that I'm gonna need

the more I understand and receive God's grace,

then that's training

me to go, oh, God has forgiven me

of even more than I thought.

I actually needed him more than I realized.

My debt to him was greater than I

understood.

And thankfully,

God is gentle with us and shows us

that over time.

And I think what you're talking about is

that that's the process. Is as I'm recognizing

that more, I'm experiencing god's grace more, then

it becomes natural for me to give

more grace, including forgiveness. Yeah. And this weekend,

I kinda I I used Ephesians and Colossians

to kinda talk about that process,

in the sense of,

you know, it's not just, like,

forgive and move on. That's not it.

Forgiving isn't forgetting, you know. It's not like,

hey, forget the offense and and move on.

It's forgiving the offense. And so that's not

exacting

payment.

It it's not denying

there was ever a debt. Right.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's forgiveness. Yeah. That is

important. It's it's forgiving. It's not forgetting. Right.

And so so the process of,

in Ephesians chapter four, at the end of

four and ended the beginning of chapter five,

where, Paul wrote, do not grieve the Holy

Spirit of God by whom you were sealed

for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness

and wrath and anger and clamor and slander

be put away from you along with all

malice.

Be kind to one another, tend to harder,

forgiving one another

as God in Christ forgave you.

Therefore, be imitators of God as beloved children

and walk in love as Christ loved us

and gave himself up for us, A fragrant

offering and a sacrifice

to God. That's that's a spirit empowered thing.

That is

that's living out the life. And then, you

know, whether it's the fruit of the spirit

in Galatians, but it goes on, you know,

in Colossians chapter three. Forgiving each other as

the Lord has forgiven you. So you also

must forgive. Like, it is the spirit empowered

life. Yeah. Well, how do I do that?

The I think, you know, like, it's what

you said. The more that I grasp

the

the the profound

debt that Jesus paid for me,

that's one side of a coin. And I

think the other side of the coin is

the more that I'm able to put in

truth,

the more that I'm able to put in

truth into my mind and into my heart,

I'm able to go,

wait a minute.

Wait a minute. That

that's not

that's actually

I I wanna say, like, maybe even

okay. You can push back on this. I

I just thought of this right now. Okay.

Maybe even

like, he's not pointing towards pure motive. Like,

I think a lot a lot of time

we get we get a little,

maybe like, okay, where is my motive pure

in the forgiveness? And and this parable doesn't

point to motive. Sure. And so I would

even be able to say, in some way,

the motive

like, if I really grasp

the power of the gospel to forgive me,

what Jesus has done, and if I'm like,

if I wanna live in that freedom

that he's given me Yeah. I can't hold

on to this. I wanna enjoy that freedom

he's given me. Yeah. It's okay to want

I think you're right. I think it's okay

to want

to enjoy

the the freedom that we have in Christ

and to go, I wanna I wanna I

don't wanna live,

like, beholden to malice. You know, when you

read that verse, I was like, yeah. Sometimes

malice feels good. Like, I wanna

hold on to hatred in my heart, but

it does not work long term. You know?

But in the short term? Yeah. Sometimes it

does feel good. Yeah. It does. You're like,

oh, now I'm just gonna slander this person.

Uh-huh. And how dated they, and could you

believe they did? Yeah. And that's that's why

I said, like, as I was concluding this

weekend, the irony of forgiveness

is that it restores you.

Right? Yeah. It's not just that and and

in the end, your your relationship

may never return

to what it was. It it might not

even be appropriate

for your relationship

to return to what it was. Right. But

that doesn't mean there's not gonna be forgiveness.

Right. So it doesn't mean, like,

you have a business partner. He stole all

your money. Uh-huh. He

he left town and stole all your money.

That doesn't mean that you don't go to

the police

and have him prosecuted. Right. But at the

same time, when you come face to face

with him, there's there's a level of I'm

I'm not harboring anything against you

because I have forgiven you for the offense

that you've committed to me. Yeah. But that

doesn't mean that you're alleviated from the consequences

of sin Yeah. Alleviated from the consequences of

the law. That's absolutely true. If there's a

case of abuse Uh-huh. If there's a case

of abuse, your relationship

isn't ever gonna be what it was. Right.

But that doesn't mean that there there can't

be forgiveness. Right. It's not pretending that it

didn't happen. And like we said, it's not

forgetting. I heard years ago read something from

a

a

researcher, you know, like from Stanford or something

on forgiveness. And

I don't think he's a believer, but he

said he wrote something like

this is the way I've quoted it for

years. I don't know if I'm accurate or

not. Forgiveness is all is giving up all

hope of a better past.

And that's not the whole picture of it,

but I do think that's part of it

is it's not forgetting the past. It's not

pretending it didn't happen, but it's giving up,

like, that somehow

if I make this person suffer, the my

past will get better. Because it won't. That

that thing happened. That experience happened. And instead

of holding

holding them in

yeah. Until they pay for it somehow, until

they are punished enough for it. Instead of

that, I'm gonna go, the past has happened,

and there are results of that.

And, you know, some of the things you

just named, it may be the results of

that. But I'm not gonna

I'm not gonna live that I somehow the

past will be better. Yeah. So Keller's book,

it does go through,

and I'm not familiar, like, I can't remember

just off my the top of my head

how recently he passed away.

But,

it it goes into all, like,

pretty pretty current since COVID, since 2020 Yeah.

Through a lot of cultural

Mhmm. Examples of things that have needed forgiveness

and how the world kind of gives a

contrary message. Like, you know, you'll get taken

advantage of if you try and forgive. Like,

the world will take advantage of you. And

don't be a doormat and don't keep getting

run over. And

he actually writes this.

He writes,

to forgive is to cancel the debt by

paying it or absorbing it yourself.

Someone

always

pays

every debt. And he uses like, this is

how monetary debt works.

So when you forgive somebody a monetary

debt and you write that off,

you lose the money. Right. You don't get

the money. Right. That's gonna cost you something.

You were supposed to get it, and now

you're not gonna get it. Right. And so

just, you know, not over cooking the parable,

but, okay, 13 to $14,000,000,000

is the one master.

He absorbed

it. Yeah.

He lost

it. The other one

wasn't willing to absorb the $15,000

hit. I'm not gonna absorb that kind of

loss. And that was really it really was

helpful for me because it's not like, okay,

just pretend like it didn't happen. It literally

is flipping that and saying,

it's it is a gospel picture.

I will take

the debt that that person owes, I'll pay

it.

I'll pay it. I'll write it off. And

that means that I have to deal with

all of the emotional scars, all of the

hurt, pain.

Yeah. That that I'm willing to take that

on rather than venting in anger against the

person who has

perpetrated the crime,

I'm going to take that all on

and and and believe that the gospel is

bigger. Yeah. And that Christ is bigger and

the spirit is going to transform that for,

you know, for god's good in my and,

you know, it's like for god's glory and

my good. I almost got that backwards.

That'd be very bad.

My glory.

Yeah. That'd that'd be really bad. You know,

there's,

I I I need well, one, I need

to read that book. I have never read

it, I don't think.

Yeah. I think it's 24 that just came

out. Okay. And then I definitely haven't read

it. And

but that idea of, like, okay. So when

the offense comes to my mind, I think

from my own experience, when the when

when that offense comes to my mind, there

is something, I don't know how else to

put it, sort of therapeutic or cathartic about

telling someone else. Yeah. Like saying,

you wanna know how badly I was wronged?

Like, it

I I don't know how else to describe

it except that it feels good. It it

almost feels like some relief.

And I feel like that's maybe part of

that burden that is

the price that you pay to go, I'm

gonna deal with this a different way. So

instead of taking it to somebody else who

will just go, yeah, I can't believe what

a jerk that person is, I'm gonna

wrestle with God about it and work through

it with him.

And that does that's like a kind of

work that's costly, and

it doesn't have the sense of maybe it

has longer term

relief,

but not short term in the same way.

I don't know. Maybe that's some of what

Keller's getting at. No. He has he actually

has,

four appendix in the back of the book,

and one of them on forgiveness practice speaking

to just what you're talking to. Okay. You

know, like,

one of one you know, he's got some

steps, but one of the ways is,

that we demonstrate forgiveness is by refusing to

cut the person down to others. Yeah. You

refuse to diminish them in the eyes of

others by innuendo or spin or hint or

gossip

or direct slander. Don't run them down to

others under the guise of warning people about

them.

Don't run them down,

to others under the guise of seeking sympathy

and support

and sharing your hurt.

That's

Yeah.

Yeah. That's

that's a spirit empowered

thing because that's the that's the human response.

Like, if I can just get you

to buy into this, you're gonna understand just

how how terrible this was. Yeah. And if

enough people agree that that person is terrible,

that will help me.

Yeah. I'm gonna feel better about me. Yeah.

And,

we we know a ministry down in Mexico

City Mhmm.

That we just sent a team there to.

They they get to deal with some stuff

that is beyond imagination. And so I think

we all have,

I don't I man, maybe we all don't.

But but there's probably something in our past.

It's like you don't you don't know the

pattern, the the ongoing rejection, the ongoing betrayal,

the ongoing offense. You don't know. Right?

The the thing, like,

the deep, deep

cutting thing that happened. Uh-huh.

And the answer is, no, I don't. Uh-huh.

You know, I said it this weekend. I

don't know what that is.

But I know

that this parable

is saying

your debt was 14,000,000,000.

Was it 14,000,000,000?

Alright. Were you forgiven 14,000,000,000?

Was this person 14,000,000,000

in debt to you?

And

it's just it's just a

a refusal

to admit

how awesome

the gospel is

in the forgiveness

of me

that would really

keep me in a place of saying, I'm

not gonna forgive that person. Yeah. Because I

I I've lost I've lost the grasp. Yeah.

I've lost the grasp of how amazing

the grace of God truly is

that that I have been brought from death

to life.

Mhmm. And I've I've I've forgotten

along the way or what you said earlier.

I never do it. Yeah. And it's important

that we would go, wait, this isn't

this isn't just theory. This is really important.

And one of the things that I've seen

in real practical ways

and for years, I've called this the golden

key. Forgiveness is the golden key that unlocks

life.

It really does. And as Jesus teaches

at the end of the model prayer,

hey, if you don't forgive, you won't be

forgiven. What's he talking about there? And we

could debate that. We don't really have time

to debate all that. But but all that

to say is there's something powerful

when somebody

goes to

a deep wound and the spirit brings healing

and wholeness and forgiveness to it? And,

the the ministry down in Mexico City, El

Pozo de Vida, that we just sent a

team to,

They have

just story after story of,

young girls,

tragic,

terrible,

beyond description,

going through

this process of

forgiveness to people that the world would say

should never be forgiven. Not

not like,

oh, it it would be really hard to

forgive them. The world's version is

actually,

you're foolish to forgive them. Yeah. It's wrong

to forgive them. You never should. It's like

we talked about this weekend. It's like Lamech

in Genesis Yeah. Chapter four.

Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep the revenge

on you. It's gonna be limitless

revenge.

And Jesus takes that, flips it upside down,

flips it or or I wanna say, flips

right side up, and says, no. What I

wanna see is

limitless forgiveness. Mhmm. Limitless. And it doesn't have

any balance.

And so I just have to choose to

believe while I don't understand the hurt that

anybody experienced.

I do understand that this is really clear.

Scripture seems to be super clear.

Forgiveness isn't optional,

no matter what the offense was.

And it's mind blowing.

It's mind blowing. It doesn't seem fair.

And so I think to be able to

go like, okay, if this is something people

are

struggling with,

if it's a repeated pattern that you're struggling

with,

it is worth it

to get

counseling, help,

a resource like, Keller's book,

and actually go, you know what? I'm I'm

gonna finally address this in my life, whatever

that is. And don't believe you know, to

hear some of those, yeah, some of those

stories from El Pos or Davida, you go,

okay. There's a kind of forgiveness that's possible

that I wouldn't think is possible.

And that's good for us to be reminded

of because if you're in a situation and

you say, not in my situation. I can't.

I could never ever forgive this person.

I think the starting point is just going,

Jesus says it's possible.

Otherwise, he wouldn't say

it's required.

So he says it's possible.

So I go, okay. So don't freak out.

Jesus is patient.

Just know it's possible. So

start to

what you tried so far hasn't worked. Okay.

But really working through it with a with

a

with

a good

counselor,

a therapist, you know, like

okay.

Don't you don't have to go into it

going, well, no. No. No. This I can

never forgive this person. Jesus says you can,

and he's gonna help you do it. And,

also, there are some people and resources and

processes that will help you do it. Oh,

just go I I I'm again, maybe it's

just, oh, it's easy for you to say

boo bar. But I think that's a starting

point for somebody. Just to go, Jesus seems

to expect that this is possible. So even

though I haven't been able to figure it

out yet, I'm gonna act like it's possible

and try something. No. I think that's really

good advice.

I think it's possible. So I'm gonna try

something.

And and then I would also think that

that it is important that we would give

a caution.

That if you are in a place of

saying,

no, it's not possible Mhmm.

And I would never.

It does now I think the end of

where you just read earlier, you really need

me to go back and read that. Yeah.

Reckon what with what you're saying to Jesus.

If you're saying oh, because

because then you are saying no.

You're wrong.

Yeah. I'm right. Yeah. Yeah.

And we do that sometimes. Yeah. I do

that all the time. Yeah. But Jesus is

just, I think that's why he's saying that.

It's a wake up call. This is what's

at stake.

Don't don't live that way. Don't live calling

God a liar.

Yeah. And just like at the end of

the prayer back in the Sermon on the

Mount, the model prayer, back in chapter six,

hey, listen. You're gonna forgive. You're not gonna

be forgiven. Here, it's like, listen. Uh-huh. Hey,

pay attention. This is really, really important. And

and as we go further into

Matthew's gospel in the new year, in 2026,

we're gonna work, chapter 29 all the way

to the end of Matthew's gospel on Easter

weekend.

Super excited about that series. But but as

we do that, we'll see more, like, this

isn't fair, this isn't you know,

like, according to the world's economy, this doesn't

seem fair.

But to be able to say,

even if you say,

I know

I'm supposed to.

Like, if you say that,

but I just can't right now. Uh-huh. I

would I would say don't

don't land there. Yeah. Don't land there. That's

not a safe landing.

That's different than,

I don't think I can Yeah. I don't

know how I can. Right. I don't know

how I could. Yeah.

But Jesus

says it's possible,

so I'm going to

follow Jesus on this path. Yeah. And it

may take a couple years. It may take

it may be a supernatural

act of God that happens

in a millisecond,

or it could take you five years to

be able to work through a process.

And I'd and as long as you're you're

doing the I'm following Jesus

on a spirit empowered journey

of transformation

over time. Mhmm. Like, I'm I'm I'm not

gonna be who I was. This is gonna

transform me. Mhmm. And then I keep working

on it, and I keep you know? And

and then along the way, if I think

he is gracious and kind in it, and

there's a real

allegiance question that we demonstrate our allegiance to

Jesus by saying, I want to want that.

I I want to want what Jesus wants

from me.

Right? I mean, like, I'm six steps removed

from there. Uh-huh. But, man, I I wanna

be five. Yeah. And then when I get

there, I wanna be four. I I still

don't know how it's gonna happen, but Jesus

says it's possible. Uh-huh. So I'm gonna go

to three. I'm gonna go to two. I'm

gonna go to one. I'm gonna keep at

it,

But I feel like if we just go,

I know that's what Jesus says, but that's

too hard.

I think we need to be careful.

Like, be careful. And that seems to be

the warning. Yeah. That's the warning. Yeah.

So this was kind of a heavy one.

I I was gonna,

I was gonna,

unleash some things here. Oh, yeah. This was

a little heavy for the sound effects. Yeah,

man. So maybe maybe, Hanukkah will unleash some

of those. But we do we do need

no. Yeah. Okay. So we need to we

need to just talk a little bit about

Tim Bubar. Everybody loves Tim. Right? Does everybody

love Tim?

I don't know.

But but this is one of those things

that Mark Hoffman and I would say to

you all the time.

And you never knew what we were talking

about.

Oh, Hercules. Hercules. Hercules.

Hercules.

You guys would quote that, and I thought

you were I just thought you were quoting

the Disney there's a Disney animated movie called

Hercules, I think.

I just thought it was

Still, dude, this

still makes me laugh.

Yeah. But instead

Instead, it's from

it's Eddie it's Eddie Murphy. Right? It is.

Yeah.

In some sort of crazy costume,

which became his thing, kind of.

Playing big mama. Yeah. And you guys you

and Mark referenced it last week. Oh, that's

how that came up. That's why Jesse put

it on there. In last week's podcast, you

and Mark, Mark used that as a verb

just like he uses Matthew 18 as a

verb. He said, I can Hercules and Herculize

some Hercules somebody all day long. But yeah.

Yeah. We know we use we use that

all the time. Yeah. Hercules. Hercules.

Anyway,

so as we come to

this point so with that, as we get

ready to head into this week, Tim Boobar,

do you have a final word for us?

Word.

Very practical. This week, I think Wednesday, I

think that's what it is. But this week

in Live It Out, we're gonna read a

big chunk of Joseph's story.

So my last word is don't skip it.

I highly encourage you to listen to it.

Just click the link if you're on, you

know, on the website. Just click the link

or listen to it in an app. Listen

to that story and let the whole just

engage with the whole story.

And it's a story of forgiveness, and it's

profound and powerful, and it's something only God

can do. And knowing and believing that story,

I think, can have an impact on your

own.

That's good. And I I almost never

add a tag on here. But if somebody's

still listening to the podcast at this point,

they're committed. Yeah. And so I would ask

if you would do the survey that's in

this week's wait it out. We're setting a

baseline as we're going in the catalyst campaign.

We're setting a baseline for where we are

when it comes to spiritual transformation. We need

your participation

in order for us to set a great

baseline.

And then over twelve, twenty four, thirty six

months. And so,

it is something that we're gonna do now.

And six weeks from now, we're gonna ask

you to do a follow-up. And then twelve

months, twenty four months, thirty six

months, really so we can just say,

how is God at work and what we're

doing, and, just a way for us to

try and put a gauge on that. So

if you would do that this week, greatly

appreciated.

That'll be cool. Have a great week.