Sex, Love, and Jesus, Part 2 // Jesus & the Gay Community

Welcome to the Lookout Weekly Podcast.

Church of the Lookout is in the hold of Colorado, and our vision is Jesus, abiding in his presence, growing in his family, and living on his mission to transform the world with all-inspiring love.

Visit us online at theLoOKout.church.

It's enough of me.

I'm gonna bring up Luke.

And I think he's got a special master.

Something special.

Thank you, Jeanette.

How are we this morning?

Feeling good.

You guys are looking so good this morning.

Um if you were how many of you were at the standard of the last couple days?

Any of you, just give me a little shout, a little whoop across the room.

Um we got a front row of some of our friends who came in from out of town.

So thankful for Brandon and uh Joel and Johnson down here from California, from from Texas, from Dallas, Texas.

They came in and and uh yeah, come on, give them a big hand.

Um some of you guys, some a lot of the kids are still peeling themselves off the floor of their bedroom right now.

Their faces were just completely melted this last couple days.

Um, and so they're tired.

So uh they're not quite ready to share testimonies yet.

Um, but there's a lot of cool stuff that happened.

Thank you.

Thank you to Shannon Clark for organizing everything.

Shannon, um a labor of blood, sweat, and tears, literally.

And uh um and it was a fantastic weekend, both of worship and just helping this generation uh catch a vision for what God is doing in their generation.

Um, one of the things they did yesterday, though, was they went down to Pearl Street and they they were just practiced hearing from God, praying for people on Pearl Street.

But one of the coolest parts was when um kind of a spontaneous worship circle broke up in front of the Capitol.

So we got a quick little video clip, I'll show you.

Take a look at this, see if this comes through.

Yeah, so that kind of stuff.

So it was a lot of fun.

They had a blast.

Um, people got prayed for.

Uh if you were here at the beginning of the service, Talia James, who was singing here, she shared a story.

For she got to share a testimony, and somebody gave their heart to the Lord yesterday on Pearl Street.

And so we celebrate every baptism, every salvation, every time uh a kid catches their identity and steps out in confidence.

It's worthy of celebrating.

Come on.

So let's give it up.

So exciting times.

We'll share more serious stories with you as they unfold as these kids wake up from the weekend.

So, all right, are you guys ready to jump into the word this morning?

Okay, uh, if you're new with us today, um, a little fair warning.

The name of the message this morning is called Jesus and the Gay Community.

Uh, we're part of a uh this is part two of a series called Sex, Love, and Jesus.

And because I knew when you woke up this morning and came to church, you're hoping that we could just talk about something super controversial.

Um, and so we're gonna get after it though, because these are topics that we do actually need to talk about as a church, okay?

We need to put language to it, and as a people, we need to do the work and uh and find a way to have these kinds of conversations because the church should be the place where we can have these conversations without shame, full confidence that God is with us.

Amen.

So if you have your Bibles open up to Genesis chapter 2, that's what we're gonna, that's what we're gonna be starting.

Genesis 2 · chapter mention

We are gonna be highlighting some of the questions around same-sex relationships, various views on difficult passages in the Bible, and then uh opportunities for us to rethink our relationship with the gay community, okay?

So, yes, you will be provoked, yes, um, you might squirm in your seats a little bit over the next uh little bit.

It's gonna be a little bit of a more dense message today, just because um for a topic so personal and so sometimes nuanced and complicated, it takes a little time to build that out.

So thank you for your patience in advance.

Let's get after it, okay?

Genesis chapter 2, verse 18.

Genesis 2:18

Then the Lord God said, It is not good that man should be alone.

I will make with him make for him a helper fit for him.

Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them.

And whatever the man called, every living creature, that was its name.

The man gave names to all livestock, and to the birds of the heavens, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept, took one of his ribs and closed it up, and place uh close it up its its place with flesh.

And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man, and the man said, This is at last this at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.

She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Let's pray together this morning.

We thank you, Lord Jesus, for your heartbeat this morning.

We thank you for your voice and your word to us.

I pray that this morning, God, as we as we talk about these things, as we dive into the scriptures, Lord God, that you would parse our hearts, that you would divide soul and spirit.

Lord God, we believe that you are speaking.

And God, that you your heart is to pull us into your embrace this morning.

And so I pray that that would happen as we spend these moments together.

Let your voice and your heartbeat be felt and known by every person here.

In Jesus' name.

We pray together.

Amen.

Amen.

So I want you to imagine the pain of being nine to ten years old growing up in a religious home, and you start to hear everyone start to talk about sex and even the opposite sex, and you keep wondering, man, I wonder when I'm gonna start feeling like that.

And then, you know, when are you gonna start feeling the same way that your friends do?

And you start asking these kinds of questions, and then you get into your teens and you realize that that feeling didn't didn't hasn't come yet, and so the sense of fear starts to set in.

Oh no, am I gay?

And and and and you start to ask this question that you hadn't asked before, and then with this question comes these prayers at night as you're laying on your bed at night, and you start asking, God, God, will you change me?

And every morning, waking up and wondering, God, did you do it?

Did you change me?

But then realizing it doesn't happen.

And eventually you don't know what to do with that feeling.

You know what you hear at church, and so you start to quote, make yourself be attracted to the opposite sex, and even that didn't quite work in your own strength.

And on top of that, you go to her, you go to church and you hear the way that some preachers are talking about the gay community, and how even Christians you you catch them talking about the Kay community, and you're wondering, I cannot be found out.

And so you try to bury it, you try to hide it, but eventually it comes out.

And at that point, you've already concluded that there's no place for someone like you in the church.

You guys, I we we just have to start here just realizing as a people, this is the experience of so many people.

In fact, 83% of the LGBTQ people population grew up in the Christian church.

That's a stat from the Marin Foundation 2016.

83% of the LG LGBTQ people grew up in the church and at some point realized this is no place for someone like me.

Okay.

So if you're here today or listening online, because I know that some of you are weren't able to be here today, and you're listening back online, wondering how what we're gonna say about this stuff, and and maybe you consider yourself gay, lesbian, trans, and you're wondering, am I even welcome to ask these kinds of questions?

If it can I even be here and worship if I don't believe the same things that you guys believe.

I just want to be very clear here.

The answer is a resounding yes.

This goes for everybody here.

You don't have to believe a single thing, I believe, in order to come and be welcome and embraced here as we come and worship and as we explore Jesus together.

I want you to know, every single person here, we love you.

God loves you, and you are fearfully and wonderfully made.

And I thank you for your courage to actually come and even sit here, if those are the kinds of questions that you're that you're asking.

Furthermore, I can't actually dive further into this topic until I or we as a church acknowledge and repent of some of the church's history of mistreatment and indifference towards the LGBTQ, uh LGBTQ community.

As you guys know, there's been a lot of pain inflicted in the name of Christ.

There are actually six specific verses in the Bible that address same-sex relationships that have been known as the klobber verses.

And using these verses, gays have been told that they are an abomination, responsible for catastrophes, earthquakes, AIDS, and many of the problems in this world.

And for such things, they have become objects of hatred.

And I'm just telling you, this is completely unacceptable.

A theological conviction can never be a catalyst to devalue people.

And I just want to let you know at the lookout, we reject and contem can condemn all forms of hatred, be it verbal or physical abuse towards the LGBTQ community.

And and uh while we're in a moment of confession, I we we have to confess even the hypocrisy from the church when a message of sexual and relational holiness is preached, but not lived by pastors, leaders, priests, or members of the church, and our lack of compassion towards the deep heart longings and desires that are in the gay community.

We're often quick to protest and to march and to band, but very slow to listen.

And so, with that said, I want to pray a prayer for myself and for us, and I ask that you join me.

Lord, I I pray this morning that you would have mercy on us.

Where we have fallen short of your standard for love.

Forgive us.

We've erected walls out of fear and confusion and uncertainty.

Forgive us, God.

Would you save us from our indifference and instill in us, God, a heart of flesh, not a heart of stone?

Help us to feel what you feel and believe what you believe.

We thank you for the grace and truth to permeate us from the inside out.

In Jesus' name.

Amen.

So if you haven't noticed, I am a straight white Christian man from Indiana.

I'm about as white as it gets, about as straight as it gets.

I acknowledge my own lack of personal experience in this area, but I hope that today you'll see my heart is to be fair, gracious, but also clear with what I believe the scripture has to say about same-sex relationships and how we are to live.

Nothing I say here is intended to be complete or final on this topic.

This is a conversation starter.

This is something we haven't put a lot of language to, and we feel like this is a time where we we can't be silent just because we're not able to say everything exactly like we want to say it, okay?

So I'm gonna get after it, and I I'm asking for grace with me for anything left undone or any questions left unanswered, okay?

I do want to thank a couple specific pastors for some of their work on this that I was able to piggyback off of Eric Geiger, Josh Howarton, and John Tyson, all pastoring different churches around the country.

Now, a little bit on language and clarity.

Um I I've I've come to realize that in this particular area, clarity is kindness.

And a lot of the LGBTQ community actually asked the church, they said, would you guys be clear on where you're at?

We were clear.

We came out of the closet and we were clear.

Would you guys be clear where you're at?

So I want to try to name a couple things here for us this morning.

Uh, specifically, there's two views that predominantly kind of categorize where the church lands on this area.

Number one is what we could call an affirming or progressive posture, okay?

Now, an affirming or progressive point of view is the position that same-sex marriages are included and celebrated in God's plan for the world.

The other view is called non-affirming or historic.

It's the belief that marriage is a covenant union before God reserved for man and woman.

Okay?

We at Church of the Lookout, and I myself would be in the category of the historic view, believing that sex is a gift from God to be reserved for a marriage covenant, which is which is a lifelong union between a man and a woman.

Okay?

Now I prefer the word historic over non-affirming for two reasons.

Okay.

Number one is there is so much that I affirm in the lives of those who I know that are LGBTQ.

Okay?

There's so much that I affirm it.

So I don't feel like it's a little unfair to say non-affirming because, like you, I know people who there's so much in their lives that is just commendable and top-notch character.

And so I think that would just I don't like saying non-affirming because that doesn't work, but I do like the word historic because uh number two, um, this has been the agreed upon sexual ethic for nearly 2,000 years among all Christian denominations, including Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and nearly 50,000 Protestant denominations in every continent and also agreed upon by Jews, Mormons, and Muslims.

Okay?

So when I say historic, I'm just I'm just emphasizing that what we're talking about is not something that we're making up.

It's actually, there's a long tradition of holding kind of a uh a view of marriage uh as being categorically um uh reserved for a union between a man and a woman, okay?

Now, we have to know that in our particular context, this all really started to shift in the last 60 years or so.

Actually, you know, obviously homosexuality has been around since the beginning.

Um, but in our lifetime, the views and postures of this have begun to shift.

And we have to just admit for a moment that even saying, even just saying that we believe in committed, monogamous, heterosexual relationships, that sounds absolutely insane in our culture.

It's mind-boggling that we would even suggest such a thing.

It feels oppressive and restrictive.

So, but so so how did we get there?

That hasn't always been the case.

How do we get there?

I just want to spend a little time on some history here.

Now, this is very important.

Um, I'm gonna be walking through uh just a couple different movements here, so hang with me.

We have arrived where we're at through a violent, bloody culture war.

And all of us in this room have been affected by this culture war.

Okay?

Now I would say this culture war is dominantly, there's two different sides of this particular culture war.

One, there is a group that has been fighting for justice.

And so over the decades, there have been many who have fought for gay rights primarily as a justice issue, believing that while we are in a culture that boasts of inclusion and equality, the argument has been that the gay community has not had equal rights and access to resources.

So for many, the last 60 years have been primarily a fight for justice.

On the other hand, there has been a fight for morality, okay?

So, and as a response to the gay rights movement, many in the Christian church have given themselves to fight for the moral fabric of society, government, schools, arguing that the disintegration of heterosexual marriages and families is creating a great crisis.

And so over the last several decades, both from the gay rights activists and the Christian church, um, there has been a culture war that has come with the adoption of a lot of war language in order to crush the opposition and defeat an enemy on the other side of the fight.

And all of us have felt that.

All of us.

It's even left us feeling a little bit exhausted.

But let me just let me just double-click on this for a second.

It's important that we know this.

So on the fight for justice side, the injustice side, specifically the gay rights movement, a lot of that started in the 60s.

As you guys know, we talked about this last week with the sexual revolution.

Um, there was a mood in the nation as we were coming through Vietnam of just kind of an overthrow of the tradition and the norm, and it was the ripe time for the gay rights movement to get to get started.

Um, a lot of it started at a gay bar in New York City, Greenwich Village, the Stonewall Bar.

I was just there earlier this year and got to see that whole area.

And uh there was riots that erupted, and it really gave a voice and movement to the gay rights movement.

1973, the Gay Liberation Front declared a war with normalcy.

The primary goal was the recognition of same-sex relationships and rights associated with those relationships.

And then, as you know, the 80s were primarily marked by what we know as the AIDS epidemic.

And it was a time of great grief and loss of life, with you know, specifically in the gay community.

And what was happening was they were trying they had to find a way to grow resources and to kind of to name what was happening so that they could have access to um um medical uh resources and financing needed to actually save lives.

And so that they they knew that they had to put a strong front to shift the American perception about gay relationships.

So in 1988, there was a uh a conference in Warrington, Virginia, about 175 leading gay activists convened to establish a new agenda.

Now, an attendance at this particular gathering was um a uh a researcher named Marshall Kirk, he was a neuropsychiatry in neuropsychiatry, and Hunter Madsen, he was a public relations consultant, he was a marketing genius, and they argued that homosexuals must change the presentation to the heterosexual community if real success was to be made.

And so they authored a book in 1988 that really um became a manifesto for the gay rights movement.

It's a book called After the Ball, subtitled How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 1990s.

Conceiving this book as a gay manifesto, the authors called for homosexuals to repackage themselves and mainstream citizens as mainstream citizens demanding equal treatment rather than a promiscuous sexual minority seeking greater opportunity and influence.

Now, you'll notice that if you go to get this book, some of you maybe have read this book in the past.

Anybody, has anybody ever read this book?

Nobody?

Okay.

If you want to go find it, it's only$200 on uh on the internet.

So that's why nobody's read it.

I was able to scrounge together some excerpts from the book, so I haven't personally read the whole thing, but in this book, they they really um this I'm not lending any opinion, this is what they wrote.

This actually became a playbook for the gay rights movement.

There was really a three-strong three-pronged strategy to overcome bigotry and resistance to gay relationships in America.

Number one was to desensitize America to gay relationships, number two, jam up all oppositions, and number three, convert public opinion.

Now, desensitize America to gay relationships.

So I'm gonna read a few quotes from the book.

They they believed that if they're gonna do this, they needed a continuous flood of gay, this is a quote, a continuous flood of gay-related advertising presenting the in the least offensive fashion possible.

If straits can't shut off the shower, they must at least eventually get used to being wet.

The main thing is to talk about gayness until the issue becomes thoroughly tiresome.

We need to seek desensit desensitization and nothing more.

If you can get straits to think homosexuality is just another thing, meriting no more than a shrug of the shoulders, then your battle for legal and social rights is virtually won.

Okay.

Now, number two, the part of the strategy was to jam up all opposition, anyone who would dissent against this movement and attack people who were attacking the gay community, which at that particular point in time was conservative churches, and so they determined that um they they wanted to cast conservative churches as homo hatings, portrayed it as antiquated backwaters, badly out of step with the times and with the latest findings of psychology.

And so then the third thing was to convert public opinion, and this had to do with uh removing homosexuality from the American Association of Psychology as a mental disorder, um, changing sodomy laws, and and and hoping that they could get the church to see that um homosexuality is no longer a sin.

You know, and so those were kind of three uh particular things.

Now, many people consider the gay rights movement to be the most rapid and successful cultural shift in American history.

And how quickly it happened, Washington Post, and just don't have time to get into this, but 2004 they showed that all the stats flipped in just like a 10-year period.

In 2004, 60% opposed same-sex marriage, only 31% were in favor.

And then it like a short time after that, it just completely flipped.

61% became in sex of uh uh became in support of same-sex marriage while 31 opposed it.

And uh it was commented on that you can't find another issue where attitudes have shifted so rapidly.

It's even so rapidly that there um are even gay writers who have said, you know, uh we we we've got to slow this thing down.

Many have argued that instead of being in a constant war, they should at least enjoy their rights.

And so New York magazine Andrew Sullivan wrote an op-ed there, why the gay rights movement is undoing its best work.

And he, Sullivan, a gay man himself argues that the far left the far left has exceeded a simple normalization in culture and its hunger for dominance and it's losing credibility.

That was from a gay man who's saying, All right, we've got our rights, let's slow this thing down.

So that's one side of the culture war.

Okay, the other side, in opposition to this, um, back in the late 80s, early 90s, there was a group that rose up in strength, led by Jerry Fowwell, called the Moral Majority, that was rallying churches across the United States, and they had their own agenda, seven-point agenda, much of which was to promote traditional vision of family life, but to oppose media outlets or any anti-family agenda, to oppose any legislation that the gay rights movements were uh suggesting.

Um and uh and um they also adopted a lot of warlike language.

A few quotes from Jerry Fowell that became kind of uh marketing pieces, messaging pieces within the moral majority.

He said, quote, AIDS is not just punishment for homosexuals, it's God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.

Someone must not be afraid to say moral perversion is wrong.

If we do not act now, homosexuals will own America.

You and I do not speak up now.

This homosexual steamroll will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way, and our nation will pay a terrible price.

And he also said, quote, if you're not a born-again Christian, you are a failure as a human being.

Okay.

So all of that led to a dramatic turn in perception to where in 2007, 90% of the population came to believe that the church is primarily anti-gay and too political.

I say all of that, okay, this culture war.

I say I bring you through all of that just because we cannot understand the moment we're in until we recognize that we have been shaped in our thinking.

We have been shaped in our thinking from a war that is violent and a war that demands everything on different sides.

And quite honestly, it's lost, it's left so many of us completely exhausted.

You guys know the amount of people I've talked to who had to pull away from the church because they have just been so tired of being in this fight.

They have they have LGBTQ friends or you know, that they're contending for, and it's hard to hold that space.

It's also hard to live in a world where you feel like so much is slipping out from under your feet.

And what it what it does, this whole conversation leaves so many just feeling wearisome.

So the invitation though for us today is we have to come back to the table and say, God, what is your heart and how can we respond?

Okay.

So three questions that we must answer as the church, I believe.

Three questions.

Number one, what is my definition this definition of godly marriage and sexuality?

Number two, how did I get this definition?

And number three, what do the scriptures, how do the scriptures support this definition?

One of my favorite things that Megan and I do is do premarital with new couples as they're preparing for marriage.

And we always ask, well, we always ask them, like, hey, what does marriage mean to you?

And it's always really surprising to hear the answers.

Because sometimes it's about we just want to grow old together, we want to be together, and a lot of wonderful things.

But it's amazing how even in the church, very few people know what God's purpose for sexuality is, and even marriage to support the gift of sexuality.

Okay?

So, part two.

What does God what does the Bible say about sexual or same-sex relationships?

All right, are you guys with me this morning?

Okay.

I'm gonna walk through a few key passages and talk about a progressive point of view and then a historic point of view.

I think it's fair to do that.

Um, because we have to think through these things.

Don't just take my word for it.

I know you guys don't, anyways.

Do your do your work, okay?

I'm gonna point uh point you towards a couple different views.

Um, we do have a uh a Google Doc with a list of tons of books and reading.

We even have some books that disagree with everything that I'm about to say, okay?

Because I believe you guys are smart, and I believe it's a time you have to be really be able to think well and pray through these things yourself, okay?

Um, passage number one that we read in the beginning, Genesis 2.18.

It's about the creation of the world, and it says the Lord God said, It is not good that man should be alone.

I will make him a helper fit for him.

You know, in this passage where God created man and woman, a progressive point of view oftentimes emphasizes that the what's important here is not necessarily the fact that she's a woman, but another human being.

She was suitable for him, for Adam, um, because of her humanity, not her gender.

Okay?

So the the argument here is that this particular passage is about companionship and not necessarily sex.

So another point of view of Genesis as well is that many would argue that it's not actually meant to be taken literally.

It's kind of a story in a poetic form.

It's it's more meant to be kind of descriptive, descriptive and not necessarily prescriptive for all of time.

Okay.

Now, in a historic point of view, we we catch some other nuances here that are important to see.

Number one, that phrase suitable helper, God will make for him a suitable helper.

Some of the passages say that that phrase suitable helper.

Now, that's a funny phrase.

Um, and I remember when I we first got married, somebody came to my wife and said, You need to be a suitable helper for your husband.

She's like, Okay, you know.

If you know my wife, all right, she didn't sign up to be a helper, all right?

If anything, and she does help me, but if anything, I help her just as much.

We help each other, but she's just so we're clear here, suitable helper does not mean personal assistant, all right?

She ain't gonna have that.

You should not have that either, all right?

There is an equality in Genesis between man and woman, which is very important.

Now, this word suitable helper is actually this Hebrew word conegdo, all right?

Kenegdo.

And this word I'm gonna quote from Preston Sprinkle, he said the Hebrew word translated suitable by the NIV is conegdo and is only used here in the Old Testament in 218 and 220.

Kenegdo is somewhat difficult to translate into English since it is a compound word made up of k, which means as or like, and neged, which means opposite against or in front of.

Together the word means something like as opposite him or like against him.

It's a complex word that captures how it is that Eve can qualify it as the perfect partner for Adam.

So this this word is very important, uh, canegdo, opposite him, and and and others say it like this, that she's the same but different.

She's the same but different.

See, God had already made the animals at this point in time, which were opposite Adam but not like him.

So the two questions we have to ask, how was Eve the same and how was she different?

How was she the same?

She was a human being, created in the image of God like him.

How was she different?

I would argue the most compelling uh um argument here is that her femaleness made her different.

Her sex, her biological sex made her different.

Femaleness set her distinct from Adam.

And we see that all through the account of Genesis 1 and 2, this isn't the only picture of like opposites.

We also see um several other like opposites that are portrayed here as the creation was coming into existence.

It talked about the coming together of heaven and earth, of day and night, of land and sea, of man and woman.

And there's something about the contrast that was actually a picture of what God was doing on earth and what he'd be doing for all of time.

And in a similar way, Jesus is like opposite to us.

He's like us in the fact that he's human, but he's different in the fact that he's wholly sinless and blameless and pure.

And that's what Paul talks about in Ephesians 5, Ephesians 5, 31 through 32, when he was picking up on the theme of man and woman, he said, Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

This mystery is profound, and I'm saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

So even for Paul, the the big idea of marriage and the coming together of male and female was not just about that as an end to itself, it's actually a prophetic picture of Christ and his church.

Okay.

So that should highlight a point for us here that's very important in this Genesis passage that goes like this.

Sex is about more than sex.

It's about more than marriage, it's about the glorious union of two becoming one, which is the ultimate picture of us becoming one with Jesus.

And so seated in a larger biblical picture of union with otherness, this ultimate picture is of the coming together of heaven and earth.

And I just don't want this to be lost on us.

That all of this stuff, sometimes we can get lost in the particularities and the technicalities of what goes with which there is an invitation here to see that sex and marriage is always meant not to be an end of itself, but a picture of what God is doing for all of time and unifying the entire cosmos back into his heart.

Some would say, Yeah, but Genesis, yeah, this is more poetic, so let's not be too, you know, let's not go all in on the Genesis account.

Though we hear that even Jesus he draws in this Genesis account in Mark 10, verse 6.

Mark 10:6

Even Jesus is caught saying, From the beginning of creation, God made the male and female.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

Male and female is not just a technicality, it's a prophetic picture of union that we are invited into.

All right.

Let's move on to the New Testament.

We're gonna do one more passage.

I could spend a lot more time here, and I encourage you to do that.

I'm just gonna do one more, and then we're gonna talk about how we actually live this out, okay?

Romans 1, 24 through 27.

Paul's writing to the Romans, he says, Therefore God gave them up in the lust of their hearts to impurity to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed for ever.

Amen.

For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Okay.

Another light-hearted one, right?

Everybody smile at me.

Dear Lord, help us.

So a progressive view, it often argues that when Paul's referring to dishonorable passions or natural relations, he's not necessarily referring to homosexual relationships, it rather heterosexual excess, a lust for more and more that took them beyond their natural desires.

And secondarily, uh many argue that the New Testament, when the New Testament refers to homosexuality, it's not referring to loving, committed, monogamous, same-sexual relationships, because they would argue Paul had no reference point.

That was not even a thing.

And so so many would argue that some of these New Testament passages that condemn homosexuality really are referring to more exploitive relationships like temple prostitution and callboys and pedophilia.

Okay?

So a lot of them say they if they had a category for same-sex monogamous relationships, they would have completely changed their mind.

He never would have written that.

But when you carefully examine that argument, um the truth is the writings of Plato and Plutarch, among many of the other Greek historical documents, show that they would have been very well aware of the entire spectrum of gay relationships, including loving, monogamous ones.

And it's true that a lot of the in this particular culture, there's a lot of violent and coercive relationships, power dynamics happening that certainly were prohibited, but there's no indication that Paul is only referring to those kinds of relationships.

So when Paul refers to unnatural relationships, men who lay with other men, women with other women, even Paul takes it back to this idea of the created order, meaning Genesis 1 and 2.

See, even Paul, it has to do with a thing of design and natural order.

And he would argue that when we start to get things wrong relationally, we're stepping, we're beginning to serve the creature rather than the creator.

Bill Johnson kind of got at this idea of the importance of serving the creator and kind of um understanding design.

He said it like this when we lose the knowledge of the existence of a creator, we lose the concept of design.

When we lose the concept of design, we undermine the discovery of purpose.

When we undermine the discovery of purpose, we remove the conviction of accountability.

When we remove the conviction of accountability, we undermine the fear of God.

And the Bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

So those are two passages that we could look at, and there's much more that could be said on those.

But I want to hit a few common questions here.

One that I get all the time, and likely you get too, is this isn't homosexuality like slavery and women and other issues the church has gotten wrong in the past?

Right?

And the reasoning goes like this.

We got slavery wrong in the church.

We used the scripture to justify slavery at one point in time, then we changed our mind on that, right?

Or we've used scripture to suppress like women and the role of women, and we changed our mind on that.

So isn't homosexuality simply another version of that?

It's actually a fantastic question.

But here's how when you pay attention to that argument, there's a couple things to pay attention to.

Number one, the treatment of women is inconsistent through the whole of scripture from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

There were many women in positions of power and leadership and teaching from both an Old Testament and New Testament.

Deborah, Esther, Mary, Priscilla, Lydia, Junior.

Even in the New Testament, as Paul was writing these highly contextual letters about women being silent, there were it's there's a lot of scholarly work that is able to pinpoint that was very specific to those cultures and not necessarily prescriptive for all of time.

And we know that because even Paul had women on his apostolic team that were full participants in the church and leadership.

Okay?

So it's inconsistent, so there's not there's not a consistent view from start to finish in scripture.

And take slavery.

There is an inconsistent view from Old Testament to New Testament.

Many scriptures talk about lawful and unlawful forms of slavery.

Paul did talk about slaves obeying their masters, but it was a different kind of slavery.

And in other times, he would also say, you should take your freedom if you can.

And so it's not it's not a consistent ethic when you take slavery from start to finish.

And it's true that the church has got these wrong and caused tremendous harm, tremendous harm over the centuries.

And we have to own that.

And I believe when we take the same kind of argument and bring the conversation of same-sex relationships, I don't believe it's an equal counterpart.

Homosexuality is treated very consistently from Old Testament to New Testament.

Never once is it enshrined or celebrated as a relation, as a God-honoring relationship in the whole of Scripture.

Okay?

So it's interesting because when it comes to the theology of marriage, the New Testament writers do not arrive at a place by loosening restriction and is implying grace, and so loosening restrictions to their ethic of marriage and sexuality.

In fact, they would always bring things back to God's created order.

And when you what you actually see in the New Testament is that the scriptures actually get more restrictive from start to finish, not less.

So Paul, so they would start arguing, no, you were to be the husband of one wife.

It actually got more specific.

The bar got higher.

And we have to see that.

We have to see that.

No, that doesn't negate the desires that we're born with.

So I want to hit a few other questions.

Number one, are people born gay?

So this is from the American Psychological Association.

Quote, there is no consensus among scientist scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation.

Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental social developmental, social, and cultural influences on the sexual orientation.

No findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.

Many think that the nature and nurture both play complex roles.

Most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

So two things I'll point out here.

Scientifically, there's no conclusive uh evidence that people are born gay.

But when you talk to somebody who is gay, um for the most part, you'll find it was never a conscious decision.

Most I spoke with in the stories I've heard, the person described them being attracted to the same sex has been so as long as they can remember.

Okay?

So that's why when we then the church uses phrases like the gay lifestyle, it can be very hurtful, as if it was simply as choosing what school to go to or where to live.

And I want to point out another set at this point in time.

This is also from the Marin Foundation.

96, listen to this, 96% of adolescents who realize they're attracted to the same sex, pray to God to take it away.

You gotta let that sit in.

And so this is where we have to have compassion.

Most people, the south would say most people who were attracted to the same sex didn't want it.

That being said, there are many things in our life that we don't choose.

We all have desires and predispositions, either genetically or based on the environment in which we're raised, and even the spiritual climate that can affect our desires.

Quite frankly, for a lot of our desires, not even just sexual desires, but a lot of our desires, demonic influence can and does affect our desires.

Okay?

And that has to be looked at.

But just because you choose, you didn't choose your desires, doesn't mean that it's the most true thing about you.

So Justin Lee said it like this in his book Torn quote, just because an attraction or drive is biological doesn't mean it's okay to act on.

We all have inborn tendencies to sin in any number of ways.

If gay people's same-sex attractions were inborn, that wouldn't necessarily mean it's okay to act on them.

And if we all agree that gay sex is sinful, that wouldn't necessarily mean that same-sex attractions are inborn.

Is it a sin and does it have biological roots?

Those are two completely different questions, okay?

All right.

Next question.

Is same-sex attraction sinful?

I would answer no.

Attraction is not sinful.

The action is sinful.

James 1.15 talks about a desire that gives birth to sin, meaning the desire is not inherently sinful.

And this is what we have to understand.

The gospel produces a denial of self, not necessarily a death of attractions all the time.

Just because you or someone you someone else has a same-sex attraction doesn't mean you have fallen away from God.

And this is where we can actually grow in compassion.

I had a conversation with my friend Brian and Tulsa, a new friend Brian and Tulsa, this last week.

Um, and he was uh he he's a man who considers himself um uh a gay Christian or uh uh a Christian who struggles with same-sex attraction, and he commented to me that as he's made his way through this, he always felt like, quote, he's I felt like my temptation was worse than their sins.

So when he was in the church, he always felt my temptation was worse than their sins.

Can you guys feel that?

He had an attraction, he was treated as if he was worse than.

The sins of those people around us.

So here's the point here.

Christians can affirm that same sex same-sex attracted individuals who love Jesus may very well wrestle with this attraction their entire life, like a married man who wrestles with being attracted to other women, or the individual who wrestles with gossiping pride or greed.

All of us, listen, all of us are in a lifelong process of sanctification through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Okay?

That means that we never all quite get it right all of the time.

We are in a process.

We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

Okay?

Yeah, that is worth clapping for right there.

Can same-sex attraction be changed?

Yes.

But not always.

I've heard amazing stories, transformation through God's power.

Not just willpower, but the God's power that's actually trained transformed people from the inside out.

I've also heard some pretty awful stories of repaired forms of reparative therapy that have led to like really bad psychological harm and relational damage.

The important thing here is this it's not to hide from your desire or attractions or pretend that they are not there.

Rather, we confess them to God and within the safety of our spiritual family, and in doing so, we're surrendering our desires, holding them before God, asking, Jesus, what are you wanting to do with this part of my life?

Okay.

Part three, how do we live this out?

Are you guys hanging?

Okay.

How do we live this out?

No, all of this sounds good, but it brings up a lot of conflict for us because it just feels like, man, this bar feels so high.

Can we do this?

For some, God changes our affections through the power of his spirit, and we believe.

We believe in the power of the spirit.

For others, we live with the desires we have, and those desires become opportunities to foster greater dependency on Jesus because the love of Jesus is actually better than our desires.

My friend Brian, who I referred to a little bit ago, when I was talking to him this last week, was just asking questions of things he wished the church would know.

Um he realized he had the same-sexual traction in his 20s.

And he was wrestling with that.

And he didn't know what to do because he loved God.

So he went to his counselor, and his counselor didn't tell him what to do, didn't try to fix anything inside of him.

He just asked him a simple question: Brian, where do you want to go from here?

Where do you want to take this?

And it put it back on Brian not to have to decide, to have somebody else decide for him what would be righteous before God, or feel like he had to fit into a form, but he decided on his own accord to live a celibate lifestyle.

He hopes to be married to a woman one day.

He's not quite there yet, but he does love Jesus with all his heart.

And even as a single, he has found complete satisfaction and fulfillment in Jesus.

Author Jackie Hill Perry, some of you know she wrote a book called Gay Girl, Good God.

She was a lesbian and then met Jesus.

And after she met Jesus, she developed a friendship with her now husband.

Uh, his name is Preston.

And here's what she said in her book quote, only God could do something so strange by making something so beautiful rise from the ground.

He did it before me with his body and now mine, like a rose out of concrete, grew my love for my man, and not not any man but and or every man but a man named Preston.

And at first this budding attraction was more about him than about his gender.

She does caution to not view her story as normative, that God may work that way with some, but in others different.

But she continues, quote, for some loving God will lead them down a path of honoring marriage, for others a life of God exalting singleness.

The same sex-attracted Christian that is called to marriage is no more of an example to the power of God than the same-sex-attracted Christian that is called to singleness.

In both God is glorified.

This is so good.

Guys, our fullest life is not in marriage, it's not in sex, it's not in singleness, and it's not in celibacy.

Our fullest life is found in Jesus.

We have to get that.

We cannot understand any of this until we're found in him.

Another person who's journeyed the road of same-sex attraction, author Sam Alberry.

He wrote the book, Is God anti-gay?

He doesn't like the term gay Christian because it feels a little too labely for him.

He prefers one who wrestles with same-sex attraction.

But he says this, quote, ever since I have been open about my experiences of homosexuality, a number of Christians have said something like, The gospel must be harder for you than it is for me, as though I as though I have some sorry, as though I have more to give up than they do.

But the fact is the gospel demands everything from all of us.

Guys, the gospel demands everything from all of us.

It's not exclusive to one form or lifestyle or decision or sin pattern.

The gospel demands everything from all of us.

And it's worthy of our lives.

It's worthy of our lives.

All of us, when we say yes to Jesus, we say yes to whatever he decides would be most honoring.

And he gets to invite us into a life that shows a picture of his sacrificial love.

So as a church, how do we actually show love?

See, this is something important.

Jesus built relationships with everyone.

He managed to have the highest standard of sexual ethics, celibacy, and complete restraint, which again is bonkers in 2023.

But then to love exact people exactly where they were at.

When he invited himself to Zacchaeus's house, he didn't tell Zacchaeus to listen to his whole sermon series on tax code and greed.

He just said, I'm coming to your house.

We'll figure the rest out after I get to your house.

Here's the crazy part.

Recent research reveals that 76% of LGBT people who have left the church are open to returning to their faith community.

If you want to talk about an opportunity before us, this is it.

Now, when asked what would need to change for them in order to return to their faith community, only 8% said that they would need their stance or theological stance to change.

Most of them came back and said these, this is kind of a summary of this, and this is uh this is all in a book um called Us versus Us, written by Andrew Morin.

Um, and again I'll send you links to this.

Here's all they request.

They ask that the church would be loving, meaning seeing them as a person beyond their sexuality.

Patient, just give just give us some time.

Give us some time.

Realistic, don't expect this quick fix overnight thing.

Authentic, you know, be real with us and supportive.

Like be with us on this journey.

And the opportunity before us is this we have to as a church, we have to create ways for for single people and celibate people to thrive and to flourish in the church.

I feel personally, I was in my car this week weeping, realizing that I believe as a church we've historically failed the single community because we've we've promoted uh a vision of human flourishing that depends on being married and having a family.

And this is a high bar for what it means to follow guys.

It's not in the scriptures, and it's not true.

Everyone gets to give everything to Jesus and be loved by Jesus, exactly where they're at.

So we have to do better to create a flourishing community.

Julie Rogers, another gay Christian, said it like this we can live without sex, but we cannot live without intimacy.

We were made for intimacy.

That's not synonymous with sex, but all of us are deserving of intimacy.

All of us are made for it, all of us are made to be looked in the eyes and to be told that we're loved.

All of us are made for friendship and connection and creativity and companionship.

We must create safe places to talk about these things without freaking out, without having to hide our struggles or our desires or an attraction, but become the kind of church that is resilient enough and endurant enough to hold each other while we're all being embraced in the loving arms of the Father.

Let's pray.

Let's pray together.

Close your eyes.

Jesus.

I thank you, Lord God, that you gave yourself, you gave your body.

You broke your body open for us.

You didn't demand any rights of your own, but you laid down your life for the people that you loved.

And I believe that you're calling us to do the same.

God, I pray for those in this room who maybe have struggled with desires or attractions, not knowing what to do with them, not knowing how to frame them in, and feeling like their only solution is to either leave or to hide.

And I just pray that today is the day that that ends.

I pray that today is the day that ends.

Because when we come to you and we confess with our mouth, Lord Jesus, I thank you that you're faithful to meet us where we're at.

So I just pray as a community that we can be a safe place to say where we're at.

I thank you, Lord Jesus, that you created us, that you designed marriage and sex and all these things for our greatest good and for human flourishing, God.

And I confess it's sometimes it's kind of hard to understand and even make sense of.

It's hard to reconcile in this day and age.

And Father, we feel some fatigue from this culture where we've been in and these wrestle of how do we hold these spaces together?

God, I just pray for strength for your body.

Lord God, now is not the time to give up or to throw in the towel, but to believe that it is possible to live full of grace and full of truth, to live in the life of God and the life of the Spirit.

And I thank you, Lord Jesus, that you've invited us all to be a part of that.

We thank you for your companionship and your belonging, God.

And this morning I pray for my friends here today, my brothers and sisters and those who are listening in.

I just pray that we can become the kind of people who live lives and relationships that reflect the quality of love that you have secured for all of eternity.

And it's in Jesus' name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah.

So this morning, I just want to ask you to stand today.

Thank you for being patient with me.

I know that's a lot.

It's a lot to wade through compared to our normal messages, but I hope that you can feel the heart.

You can sense the heart here this morning.

And listen, I want to end this service.

Some of you, as I'm talking, things are kind of unearthing in your own heart, and you might feel tender right now.

You might feel you might feel like something is unsettled in you, or you just want someone to hold you and just be with you in prayer.

We're gonna have a prayer team that's gonna be up around the room.

Maybe you want to pray for a family member that you know, your kids, or your parents, or your aunts, or uncles, or friends, or coworkers.

Maybe you just want someone to pray with about how to hold certain relationships in your life.

How do you be an embodiment of Jesus to the people in your life that you love so deeply?

You can pray together.

And I just want to, again, bless us as we go that we're going in the spirit of Jesus, we're going in the spirit of Christ.

You guys are going in the spirit of Christ to proclaim good news with every step.

Amen.

So I want to pray a prayer over all of us.

If you just put your hands out across the room as if you're receiving a gift, may the Lord bless you and keep you.

May He make his face to shine upon you.

May He be gracious to you and give you rest.

I love you, friends.

Go in the power of God and the strength of the kingdom.

If you're new with us, meet us in the back.

Follow the sign.

We'll see you at Fall Festival this Friday night.

It's gonna be awesome.

Love you guys.