What We Get Wrong About Mental Health | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and this week

we're going to dive into a topic that I think

is really important for people in general to

talk about, but also for people of faith, I think.

We're going to talk about the connections between

faith and mental health and how we as followers

of Jesus, we as a church, can sort of support

one another and support those in our midst who

are struggling with their mental health. And

I am really excited to be sitting down here with

Iris. So thank you for joining me today. It's

lovely to be here. So Iris, do you want to start

by just introducing yourself a little bit? Okay,

so I'm a psychotherapist, and it's a second career

for me, and I have felt very blessed because

I've had two wonderful careers. I was in education

before and retired from that in the end of 98,

and then went back and got a Master's of Divinity

in Counseling at Tyndall. and started a practice

in 2002 and have been doing that as a private

practice ever since. Okay. And continue to. Yeah.

Okay. Very cool. Yeah. So when we talk about

health, there's lots of different sort of spheres

of this. A lot of people will think about physical

health or mental health, but then there's also

sort of emotional and spiritual health. So like,

how do you see all of these different realms

intersecting with one another? Well, they certainly

do intersect because we are organic and they

all join together. I put together a little bit

of a schematic that I thought would help people

to understand. So we have one big circle that

says spiritual. But within each of those, we

have emotional, mental and physical. And those

are sort of like a Venn diagram that all intersect

and overlap with one another. But spiritual sort

of encompasses all of it. Yeah. And a diagram

is like it's quite simple and doesn't capture

everything, but it was sort of the best I could

do. Yeah. And because so emotional, as I put

up there, is about the feelings. And oftentimes

when we're talking about mental health, we are

really talking about emotional health, because

mental health is actually your cognitive and

the way we think and process in a thinking way.

And then the physical, obviously we know what

the physical is, but they do, one very much impacts

the other. Sure. And you can't, if you've got

a physical issue. you've got thoughts about it

and you've also got feelings about it. And likewise,

if you're dealing with something emotionally,

it impacts you physically and so on. We're much

more aware of the physical aspect of ourselves,

I think, than the other two. And the emotions

is probably the one that we know the least about

and are the most frightened by. Sure. Yes. And

the spiritual, to me, over... It surrounds them

all, and very much it can be the answer, but

also puts everything in perspective and holds

them all together. So that's where the faith

and Christianity come in. But to access that,

we have to be able to work through the other

issues. Sure. Yeah, so there's this sense that

the spiritual health is... All -encompassing,

sort of as you said, but it doesn't stand alone.

For sure. Yeah. I think it helps a little bit

maybe if we thought about how we measure some

of these things. Sure. So, for example, if we

thought of physical health, we measure that by

how strong you are and how flexible you are and

how you can endure. And there are tests to do

that. If we think of cognitive, we think in terms

of... of IQ tests or our thinking or our memory.

As I get older, that becomes more of a real thing

that you think about, like your mental clarity

is what we aim for there. And there are tests

to do that. When we think of spiritual, I guess

we think of trust. and obedience and how trusting

and obedient we are to the lord and with emotional

it can be a little bit more vague and if you

ask people what emotional health looks like Like

if I were to ask you, Kyla, I'm much more used

to asking questions than I am answering them.

Sure, sure. So if I start to answer your questions

with, and what do you think? You'll know I've

reverted to a therapist. Yes, that's all right.

But if I asked you, how would you measure emotional

health? How would you answer that? Yeah, that

feels hard. I mean, I would almost start by saying,

What it is that I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing

happiness or sadness or anger or whatever. But

that's not even a measure of emotional health.

That's just emotions. Identification. Yeah, I

don't know. So is there a measurement? Yes. Okay.

Well, in a way, there's a measurement. So if

I were a psychiatrist, I would use what is called

the... I wrote this down because I always get

the initials wrong. It's DSM, and I think they're

in the fifth edition. So it's a book that identifies

all the different mental health issues. Right.

But for myself as a psychotherapist, We don't

diagnose. And for people in general, I think

it's more, I think of a continuum. Okay. So if

you took any mental or emotional health issue,

say anxiety, and you thought in terms of zero

to 10, all of us would fit somewhere on that.

But there's a line. And the DSM would identify

that. If you are over that line, then they would

diagnose you as having an anxiety disorder. Right.

Yeah. For me, the best definition that I come

up with for emotional health is expressing the

appropriate emotion at the appropriate level

for the given situation. Okay. Okay? Yeah. So

sometimes when I hear people saying, say, you

often hear this at a funeral, where wasn't she

strong? And what that really meant. What's that

mean? If somebody says, wasn't she strong? What's

that usually mean? Well, usually it means they

held themselves together. They weren't overly

emotional and grief stricken and those things.

Yeah. Well, I would question whether that was

strong or not. Sure. Yeah. Now, it might be because

that person may be. showing the emotions in a

different way, in a different forum. But just

because they didn't cry or they didn't fall apart,

literally, if it's a loved one, doesn't mean

that they're being strong. It could be that they're

pushing down their emotions. Right. And pushing

down emotions, it's like a garbage can. At some

point it gets full. And it usually comes out

in very inappropriate ways. Sure. And that's

where you have... like anger, for example, being

shown much bigger than the given situation would

seem to warrant. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

I'm interested, I think specifically in how the

spiritual health aspect fits into all of this.

And it's interesting to me, you said you did

a master's of divinity in counseling. Yeah. And

so I would imagine that there was a lot of sort

of thought put into how our spiritual health

connects with. our emotional health and that

sort of thing. So yeah. How do you see those

two things? Are they at odds with one another?

How do they integrate well? They're totally not

at odds with one another. They can be if used

incorrectly, I believe, but they're not at odds.

You know, I'm reminded of the 12 step program

where they have this slogan that says that we

have an emotional problem with a physical manifestation.

and a spiritual cure. Okay. And so I think that

sometimes they, and when I was thinking about

that, I thought they should probably say with

a physical and thinking, but they cover that

because they talk about stinking thinking. Sure.

Yeah, quite a bit. Yeah. So basically, but they

are right that it's an emotional issue that like

I see addictions of any kind as a symptom. of

an emotional issue and an escape from something

sort of thing. But the spiritual cure is absolutely

right on because the answer is in our faith.

And so it has so much that we can use. And even

psychotherapists or psychologists who are not...

are not Christians or have a faith or spirituality

that they would talk about, recognize a lot of

what Christianity offers as healing, like thinking

positively and think about... Philippians 4,

8, I believe where it is, about thinking those

things that are lovely and true and so on. Well,

isn't that what we're supposed to do when we

get down? And forgiveness. which is very much

a part of the Christian belief, that's known

to be necessary before total healing can take

place between relationships. So it has all the

answers. The problem is that one has to work

through the emotional aspects to get to that.

Otherwise, it just becomes cliches. And sometimes

even harmful. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think

that sort of reminds me then of like how these

things about our faith, you know, sometimes when

someone is struggling with something, we'll tell

them, we'll just pray about it. We'll just trust

God with that thing. And there is some truth

in that, right? That there is, you know, coming

to God and in faith is helpful. But like you

said, it needs to be paired with that. that emotional

healing and well -being as well, I think. Yeah,

and like, absolutely. And we know that, and the

answer is in that. But I can't hear that. There's

no way I can hear that if I'm struggling with

something emotionally or some circumstance in

my life. I can't hear that. It just sounds like

you want to be rid of me. Right. And which, by

the way, is a huge issue because one of the hardest

things that we as humans seem to have to do is

to sit with pain. With our own pain and with

other people's pain. We want to run away from

it. We're very uncomfortable with it. And one

of the hardest things when I say to my clients,

I want you to sit with that pain, even for two

minutes. And it seems very hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Very, very hard. Even though they're there to

work on the stuff, they still just sitting with

your pain. We want to run away from it. We want

to make ourselves a cup of tea. We want to go

for a walk. We want to do anything, but just

literally sit with that pain. Yeah. Yeah. That's

hard. And then even harder to sit with somebody

else's. Of course. Yeah. For sure. If we say,

oh, I'll pray for you or like, you know, just

trust in the Lord, the person who's struggling

just hears that. You want to get away from me.

Right. Because really, that's what it is. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Because we're all struggling with

that. Yeah. Yeah. So in faith communities, there's

this that we were just sort of talking about.

But are there other sort of common misconceptions

or challenges that you think people in faith

communities have towards mental health challenges?

Yeah, it's interesting. I had thought that we

were far beyond this, but then I was talking

to a colleague, another therapist the other day,

and it came up that this still happens, and I

thought how awful this is. Because I believe

there are Christians and churches that even think

that something like depression or anxiety or

any of the OCD or any of the difficulties that

people have are sinful. Or a lack of willpower.

Right. And you're just being weak. And that is

so, it really makes me sad to think that that

is still out there. And yet it is. And so I think

we have to bar against that. So the answer is

in our faith. I mean, we've got everything in

the faith. We've got the community. We've got

all the things that can support. But if we think

of emotional issues, we wouldn't think of physical

issues as sinful. Or mental, like cognitive,

you don't think somebody's sinful just because

they aren't as smart as you. However, we can

go there and that they're not strong and not

being strong enough if they have an anxiety or

a fear or depression. Right, yeah. Yeah, I think

that's a really big thing. And I think even...

I think there's nuances to that, right? So there

would be some people who might say, you know,

these mental illnesses are sinful in and of themselves,

but there's other people who maybe they wouldn't

say it in those words, but they would say, well,

you just need more faith, right? Or, well, if

you just trust God, if you just keep praying,

God will cure you of this mental illness. And

there's truth in that. Sure. There's truth in

that because we do need more faith. I don't know

if we need more faith. We need more trust and

more obedience. But that doesn't cure the emotional

issue. It's the same as if I break a leg, like

I have to go to the doctor and get it set and

so on and so forth. And we know that. I mean,

God could zap his finger and do it, but he doesn't

as a rule. So with emotions, it's the same thing.

We have to work through them. And there's many

things and it's just like, you know, I broke

my arm last year and it's healed, it's functional,

it's wonderful, but it's not like it was before.

And so when we have emotional issues that happen

to us, and we all do from birth on, like you

mend to a degree, but they're still there. And

so you still continue to work through those.

And our faith can be very helpful in working

through those. But we still need to recognize

that we have responses that are just part of

who we are. And the more worn down we are in

one way or another, the more those responses

will come out. Sure, yeah. In other words, coping

mechanisms that aren't very helpful. Sure, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I appreciate the sort of

line that we're trying to walk here where we're

saying, You know, that there is something really

valuable in faith, and faith is not the magic

cure -all, right? That there's something, faith

provides us with positive coping mechanisms,

but it's not just have more faith and you'll

be fine. Exactly. Because along with that faith,

you have to, just like you have to let your leg

heal, there has to be healing. in your emotions.

And recognizing that emotions, we don't get over

them. And we don't get over the impact that our

childhood, every... therapists that you work

with will always take you back to childhood and

there's a reason for that because we we set up

patterns and ways of thinking when we're children

that we continue to act out as adults even though

they're no longer necessary and or helpful yeah

but it's just so in part of our dna that we just

do it yeah and so so that's uh and that is part

of us and no matter how old we are yeah and that

will pop up yes For sure. For sure. So as we're

thinking about that, I think for some folks,

whether it's in childhood or later, the church

is sometimes a place that causes some challenges,

causes some harm. And so, yeah, what are some

ways that you think the churches can work to

reduce harm, but also to promote a sense of healing

for those who have been hurt by? or by faith.

Yeah. I think a church at its best is family.

Yep. And just like our biggest hurts and joys

can come from our family of origin and also it

can come from the church. And it's because it's

so important that those hurts are real. And so

that you can get hurt by people and relationships

because... We're all people here just like we

are out there. We can hurt each other and love

each other. But the church has so many things.

First of all, it is a community. Having a mental

health issue can be... I'm going to try and change

that to an emotional health issue. I may go on

a campaign. It can cause people... One of the

first things people want to do... especially

if it's depression, is they want to isolate.

And because they don't like being around themselves,

so they find it really difficult to think that

anybody else would want to be around them. Sure.

So church can really be the community of that

person. And I would encourage anyone struggling

to reach out, but also sometimes the church needs

to reach out to them. because they can't sometimes.

And so any way that the church can reach out

to people and be available. Another huge thing

I think that the church can do is to start to

recognize within each individual, encourage the

idea that it's important to know our own issues.

A number of years ago, If I'm off on a tangent

here, I know you'll bring me back. So a number

of years ago, I started working with Hospice

Peel. It's a wonderful organization. And I used

to do some training of their volunteers, their

bereavement volunteers. And one of the things

that I came up with was these are people, most

people that volunteer there, obviously, have

been people that go through bereavement themselves.

And one of the things that I realized that...

People have to be at a certain level before they

can help others. And I came up with this thing

about know yourself, accept yourself, forget

yourself. And you really can't be helping other

people if you're still so busy, busy knowing

yourself. Now, trust me, this is circular because

the more we forget ourselves, the more we learn

about ourselves. But in the moment that we're

helping people, we need to be the small circle.

So in order to be the small circle, we have to

work through some of our own stuff too. Sure.

And so it's the know yourself by figuring out

your own emotional levels and accepting yourself

that that's just who I am and that's okay. It's

okay. And then be able to forget yourself when

you're working with other people. Like as a therapist

in the room, if I'm not being the small circle,

I'm not being a very good therapist. Right. And

I can't be the small circle. if I'm busy thinking

about my own stuff and working through my own

stuff. Sure. Yeah. And it's not that it doesn't

come up, but you're able to set it aside. Right.

But then be honest to yourself and honoring of

yourself by working through that stuff on your

own. Right. Or with other people. Sure. Yeah.

Sure. But just not in that moment. Owning it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really

interesting and really important to think about

as we think about Christian leadership in particular,

as we think about pastors or deacons or whoever

it is that is leading and caring for other people,

it does require some deep work on yourself to

be able to do that well. Absolutely. May I just

mention, because I just glanced down at my notes

here, a couple other things that when you mentioned

about what the church... One of the things that

happens, especially with people who are depressed

or going through difficult times, is to remain

hopeful. And the church can provide that, but

in a loving, like not in a platitude type way,

but in a very loving way of walking beside people.

And sometimes when people are really down, you

have to hold the hope that they don't have. And

our Christian belief. It's all about, like, the

hope. It doesn't matter how bad of a mess the

world is in. Like, we know who wins here. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Like, we know. And so that hope,

if we can carry that, and, you know, something

I guess I'd throw in here is that people don't

know, they don't care how much you know until

they know how much you care. And I know that's

an old saying, but it's really true. But if you

really, if they know, I can get away with my

clients with things and say things to them and

push them quite a bit because they know I care.

Right. Yeah. But if you tried that before they

know that, it won't work. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. So it also then requires building a bit

of trust, which I think then requires you to

be in it for the long haul. For sure. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is something that I think

a local church and its members can do quite well,

right? Because the individuals in a church, you

know, maybe come and go, but the church itself

stays and is fairly permanent. And hopefully

the people who are leading that church can make

a commitment to... being there to walking with

people through a season, through many seasons,

hopefully. And I don't think it's only the leadership.

I think that it's something that each individual,

like the congregation in general, can participate

in that and needs to participate in that because

you leaders can't do it all. Sure, yeah, yeah,

yeah, sure. And I think another piece of that

is to know. when the person needs professional

help too. Sure. Yeah, because I think that, and

yeah, because like we can't do it all within

the church. We are just there, I think, to support

and encourage. But encouraging, part of the encouragement

is encouraging people to get professional help

when they need it. Sure. You wouldn't let somebody

walk in here with a broken leg and not tell them

to go to a doctor. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. So

I think that's, a tricky thing for pastors and

church leaders and people to sort of figure out

is what, what is mine to do and what needs to

be sort of referred elsewhere. So like, what,

what would you sort of say into that space? If

there's someone, a church leader trying to figure

out, okay, I have this, this person before me,

how do I know what's mine to care for and what

I need to refer to a professional? Yeah. I, I,

I think that, that, It has to do, if you think

in terms of what we started off here with, with

the, like, is there an emotional issue here?

Like if this person comes in, like you as leaders

of a church, you're spiritual, you're spiritual

leaders. And that's really important. It's not

emotional leaders. Right. So if somebody comes

to you with an emotional issue. Right. Then to

me, that's, that's not in the, you're not. qualified

sure sure yes yeah and and uh yeah so so it's

the it's the idea of being able to discern and

it's not always easy to discern sure because

it may appear like a spiritual issue that really

is an emotional issue sure and uh but uh and

But I think it's important to just, and the severity

of it, because we all have emotional issues.

You remember that continuum? Right. We all have

anxiety. We all have depression. It's just where

we are in the continuum. Sure. And so it's a

judgment call, of course. Yep. But if you think

of it, I relate it back to the physical. It's

like... if somebody is really looking physically

sick or they've got, you would recommend they

go to a doctor, would you not? Sure. Yes. Yeah.

So I think you'd trust your discernment in that

and try, but, and recognizing that you don't

have to be all things to all people. Sure. Like

if somebody starts talking to me about legal

things, I'm not going to, that would be very

wrong for me to talk to them or to suggest or

business things. I'm not an expert. That's not

my expertise. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

I think, As you were talking there, I was sort

of reflecting on my own journey with spiritual

and emotional health and just thinking there

are moments and there have been moments in my

life where therapists have been super helpful

in helping me figure out emotional challenges

in my life. And at the same time, I still needed

and wanted spiritual support and leaders, right?

It's not like we refer someone to a mental health

professional and then we... Abandon them to that.

Of course not. No, no. It's not one or the other.

It's both. But it's just recognizing who needs

to take charge of what part of it. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you talked about this,

the importance of this work of knowing your own

stuff so that you can sort of know yourself and

then move towards the forgetting of yourself

so you can care for other people. So how do we

do that? Are there sort of certain tools or resources

that you might recommend to help someone start

to do some of that work of knowing themselves?

Yeah, I think one of the first things, as far

as I'm concerned, is to... to start to understand

your emotions a little bit. And it's sometimes

just to check in. Like we're feeling all the

time. So sometimes it's just an idea to say,

okay, how am I feeling right now? And I tell

my clients that there's really four basic emotions,

sad, mad, glad, and afraid. And then under that,

there's a whole bunch of vocabulary that is very

helpful to learn. Like there's a huge difference

between... melancholy and despair sure uh there's

a huge difference between annoyed and rage yes

uh but they all come under anger they all come

under yeah so it's it's getting to uh like i

tell my clients like acknowledge acknowledge

the feeling yeah and and um and affirm it and

by affirming it i just mean it's okay right so

it's like no matter we're afraid to feel some

feelings Because we go to the expression, but

a feeling by itself is a messenger. It's just

telling us something. Sure. And we don't want

to listen to it. Yeah. And so like if you just

say, okay, I'm feeling sad right now. Right.

And the next thing you recognize you're sad,

then it's okay that I'm sad. Right. And then

you might want to do some investigating about,

I wonder what that's about. What's the message

right now? But sadness is an important feeling.

Sure. We don't want to chase it away. Because

sadness is always about loss. It's always about

loss. And once you allow yourself to grieve and

mourn whatever the loss is, it's inviting you

to let go of something so you can grab onto something

else. Sure. But if you don't go through the process

of feeling the loss, then you can't get to the

other. Yeah. Anger has such a terrible reputation,

especially among women. Yes. Anger has such a

bad reputation. But anger is so important because

it's the motivator. Right. If people hadn't got

angry, you and I wouldn't vote. Right. Yeah,

yeah. So it's a motivator. However, if it gets

out of place, then it becomes very destructive.

Sure. But anger on itself is very motivating.

It sets a boundary. has been crossed here or

violated. A value has been violated. And I need

to do something to put in a boundary to put that

back in place. So anger is important. All emotions

are important. And if we see them that way. So

that's the first thing, is just to be able to

be aware of how you're feeling. Because most

people don't want to do that. Sure. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, for sure. And seen as weak. Yeah, yeah,

for sure. So if there are folks who are listening

who are people of faith, Christians, who find

themselves struggling with their emotional health,

are there resources or next steps that you might

offer to them? The first would be to admit that

they are. The second would be to reach out for

help. Because I said before about people want

to isolate, and it's important for them to reach

out. And so to reach out and to be open about

things and being willing. I know it's going to

take time, but being willing just to be vulnerable

with people. The other part of it is, I'm not

talking here about people like... falling apart

all the time, all over. One has to discern the

appropriate time with the appropriate people.

Sure. I think there are two extremes. People

that they're like a vault. They never admit any

emotions. And then people that are emoting, well,

neither one of those are healthy emotional places.

Right. So it's... being willing to get help to

see that, but also to take some direction and,

and be open to that. Cause I don't, I think we

need to, to be free to direct people in certain

ways, but yeah, seek help and, and reach out.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And for, what about for folks

who are knowing someone who's struggling with,

with their emotional health? You know, what,

would be sort of helpful steps for them to take.

Yeah. Yeah, again, you know, it's that, first

of all, if it's somebody that is close to you

that you are, be patient, which is hard sometimes.

Totally. And be willing to sit with their pain.

Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned that before,

and I can't emphasize that enough, is that, and

it's uncomfortable and so on, but to be willing

to sit with their pain. Yep. And also to suggest

to them that they get help. Right. Yeah. And

not to allow yourself to be drawn into it because

you don't want to go down the drain with them.

Sure. So you have to watch your own boundaries

around stuff like that too. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that can be especially hard. I know it's

hard for... christian leaders caring for other

people but i think it's also it's even harder

and more complicated when you're talking about

family and friends right because it's it's this

person you know maybe it's your partner it's

your whole world it's your kid it's right but

how to to figure out okay what does it look like

to sit with them in their pain and to take care

of yourself at the same time. I think Jesus gave

us a really good model of that. I must admit

I'm a bit of a fan of the series The Chosen because

I think it has shown Christ in such a human way

as well as a godly. And like the way that, but

in the scriptures it's very, very clear. That,

I mean, he was with people. He was passionate

and being with them. But he took time to be with

his father and taking care of himself. Right.

And to go off and pray. Yeah. And even though

they thought they should go one direction, he

was quite willing to go another direction because

the Lord had led him in that way. I think we

need to do that, too. It's like we're not going

to be, it's that whole put your mask on, your

own mask on first sort of thing. Right. Because,

yeah, you need to. care for people but at the

same time you can't care for them if you're not

caring for yourself right and keeping your own

self in proper physical emotional and mental

health and spiritual health yeah yeah yeah yeah

for sure and i think that feels really hard to

do sometimes but still really important One of

the things I just, I love continuums. I think

my clients get very tired of me talking about

continuums, but I love continuums. My husband

said I got to stop it when I asked him to do

a continuum between peanut butter and almond

butter, but I can be a bit extreme. Anyway, point

being that if you know yourself, I think there

are two extremes. One is that you are so clinical.

and that you appear cold and uncaring. So you're

way over here. And the other one is that you're

so compassionate and empathetic and so on that

you just burn out and so on. And so neither one

of those extremes is healthy. It's helpful, first

of all, to know which side you fall on, like

which end are you closest to, because then that

helps you. to know which way you have to move.

Sure. I have a wide idea. I always say between

3 and 7 is normal, natural, and to be expected.

But if you find yourself out at an 8 or a 9 in

one end or a 1 and 2 at the other, then you need

to move in. Sure. So then knowing where you are,

then that tells you, do I have to be more clinical

in this situation and protect myself, or do I

need to be warmer? more caring yeah yeah and

as someone who in situations where i'm providing

care to another person i think my natural instinct

is towards compassion and so to hear maybe sometimes

i need to be a little more clinical is challenging

and it sometimes it feels like well no that's

not Jesus was all about compassion and those

sort of things. He was also taking care of himself.

He was also taking care of himself. Yeah. Yeah.

And so to bring those things together, I think

is really important. Yeah. The other thing I

think that's important is to be able to recognize

that it's their issue. Right. And by the way,

that's a very caring, loving thing to leave it

with them because we can get so involved. That

we get to be the big circle and it becomes about

us. Right. And so it's like to be compassionate

and empathetic with the person, but leave it

with them. It's theirs. Honor them. Give them

the idea that they can do this. Right. Because

with God's help, they can. Right. Yeah. Sort

of honoring their whole personhood. Exactly.

Right? That this is someone who, yeah, has all

of these complex issues, but they're not incapable.

in the grand scheme of things, of coming through

that, right? With the right support, with, you

know, the help of other people, with the help

of God. But yeah, I don't need to take it from

them. No. So sobering as it is, we can recognize

that. So say I see a client for an hour for a

week. They're spending 23 hours every day for

seven days without me. So, I mean, they're doing

something. So just recognizing that we can help,

but we don't have to at all. Yeah, sure. That's

really helpful, I think. Yeah. Was there anything

else that you wanted to sort of touch on as we

think about this idea of faith and emotional

health and how? These all intersect with one

another. No, I think you've given me a really

good opportunity with your questions, Kyla, to

say what I said. I think my biggest message,

and I don't know if it's come across, but my

biggest message would be to recognize that we

all have emotional issues. Sure. And I think

that by recognizing that, it helps us put less

stigma on people. that theirs have maybe gone

to the point where they're causing a little bit

of dysfunction. But recognizing that there's

probably about this far between them being dysfunctional

and where I'm at at this moment sort of thing.

So it normalizes it a bit. And I think the more

we recognize that, then the less frightened we

are of it and the more we're willing to enter

into it. You're not going to disappear because

you sit with pain. For five minutes. Yeah, for

sure. Yeah, that hope that there's something

normal about having emotional health challenges,

about dealing with all of these things. And that,

you know, faith offers us fertile ground for

coping with that. Absolutely. Yeah. In the end.

It's the best coping mechanism in the world,

but we have to get there by going through the

emotions. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so

much, Iris. My pleasure. And thank you for tuning

in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether

you are finding yourself in the midst of some

mental and emotional health challenges or whether

you are simply caring for others who are going

through those things, I pray that you are able

to find the path forward. through knowing yourself,

through trusting God and through seeking support

from those around you. And we will see you again

next week.