Hospitality, Inclusion and Jesus | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla Lones and

I'm the online engagement director here at Trinity.

And I'm Jordana Lobo-Pierras. I'm a member here at Trinity.

And my name's Rob Hirkmans, and I am the pastor here at Trinity Streetsville.

So this week we're sitting down to wrap up our sermon series Around the Table, where

we've been looking at the different meals that Jesus shared during his time on earth

with a special focus on themes of hospitality.

And so I thought it would be great to sit down with Rob, who's been preaching us through

this sermon series, and yeah, just ask some questions, get to know a little bit more about

some of the themes that we've been talking about, some of the stories, and maybe some

questions from folks in our congregation about things that you've been preaching on.

So Rob, first, I just want to know, why did you decide to preach a sermon series on the

meals that Jesus ate?

Yes. So that's a good question. I think it probably starts by realizing that this was

obviously for Jesus, eating meals with people was like a primary strategy for enacting and

unfolding the kingdom of God. So I think it's interesting that yes, it's something that

Jesus did a lot of. I mean, he was always eating and drinking with people. He was accused

of being a glutton and a drunkard, blah, blah, blah. But obviously Jesus was only one person,

and so Jesus could only ever be at one table at one time. But we, as the church today,

are the body of Christ. And so I think we believe, I hope we believe that Jesus' spirit

lives in us. And so in many ways, this is why we can do greater things than Jesus ever

did is because we can actually, as the church, as the body of Christ, be at many, many tables

at the same time and be unfolding the kingdom in greater ways in the sense that I think

that the ministry that Jesus established, the kind of pattern he set for us is one that

we ought to be taking up as a church. And so I don't think the mission hasn't changed

and the method maybe hasn't changed either. So I think that's one of the big reasons why

I thought it would be... I mean, another reason is because I think this is like, it's really,

really easy. This is really easy to do, right? Because I think a lot of people in our church,

I don't know about you guys, but might struggle with the idea like, oh, how do I do mission?

I don't know how to do this. This is hard. This is difficult. I don't have a theological

degree. I didn't go to Bible college. No, but you can invite someone to Tim Hortons

and have a coffee with them and have something like that. It's very easy. It's accessible

for every one of us to do. And yeah, I think also, I think we might not realize how powerful

hospitality can be. There's... I can't remember who it was that said it. Alan Hirsch. Alan

Hirsch said once, he said that if every Christian family were to open up their homes like once

a week and invite people in who maybe didn't know Jesus or didn't know anything about the

church, he said we would very quickly eat and drink our way into the kingdom of God.

It's a powerful way. And if all Christians were to adopt this, it would be, I think it

would be revolutionary. It would make a real difference in the world. I don't know, maybe

I'm overselling it. But one of the books I read in preparation for this sermon was called

The Hospitality. The subtitle was The Simplest Way to Change the World. So yeah, I think

it's all those things. I don't know. But did it resonate with you to be talking about something

as simple as opening our homes up and eating and drinking with other people? Did that

connect you think with people? Yeah, I think it did. I think I was... Through

the series, I began to reflect on the ways and when I actually end up inviting people

in and how often I tend to put it off to busyness and recognizing that when I do, it is a wonderfully

special time with people. You get to know your neighbors, you get to spend time with

friends. And it's not just a chance, a small meeting. It's always more relaxed and it feels

like you're sharing your life a little more when you're gathering around the table. So

definitely it resonated as to why it's... Jesus walked and talked and just talked outside

so often, but it's the meals that felt intimate, right? And that's the difference between sort

of chance meetings, say, or even teaching somewhere and between actually inviting somebody

a little more into your life. So it did resonate. I began to think through just how important

it was then for Jesus to keep being invited to homes and provide food where sometimes

to eat together. Yeah. I mean, we know this, I guess, but hospital

and hospitality share the same root word, right? And so there's the sense in which these

meals that we share are actually, they have the potential to heal our world, to heal broken

people, to heal broken relationships. It's like your home becomes a hospital, right?

And someone once said your dining room table becomes a surgery table or something like

this. This is kind of where God can do his restoring and healing work in people's lives.

I know for all that I just said that it's actually so simple, everyone can do it. It's

actually hard at the same time. I know I struggle because there's always that risk element of

opening up your home too, right? So there's a tension there.

Yeah. So it reminds me of the Trinity talks I did last week where I sat down with Nishanth

and Rachel and talked about their experience of hospitality together. And they both said,

at first that feels really daunting. It can feel awkward. It can feel like you don't really

know what to expect. But they also both came out of it saying we feel more like family.

We feel more like we're connected not just to each other, but to the wider Trinity family

as well. So I think there is a sense in which it is simple, but not necessarily easy.

That's right. But also so worthwhile.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

So I mean, your series consistently talked about it being a priority for Jesus, right?

And then it was for the early church as well. So why isn't it a priority? In what ways can

we make it more of a priority for our churches today?

Yeah. We were talking before about, you know, do churches see hospitality as a priority?

And perhaps, you know, 2000 years ago when there were no church buildings and people

met in each other's homes, then church automatically overlapped with this whole idea of hospitality.

When you were doing church, you were necessarily opening up your home, right? So that was both

were happening at the same time. So now we're in a very different situation. We have these

big church buildings. And so I think that maybe if I understood the question, right,

the question might be, well, if we've got church buildings and we, you know, do we still

need to be meeting in people's homes? I don't know. But I think that anyone who's been around

the church for a while knows just how important like making personal connections are to anybody

feeling at home in a church. I mean, one of the things that we have new folks coming through

our doors each and every week here at Trinity, and we know, we know that if they do not make

a personal connection with someone, they don't make a friend or have a conversation or if

they don't, then, you know, maybe they'll come back two weeks or maybe they'll come

back three weeks. But ultimately in even average sized churches, they'll disappear. They'll

disappear. And I mean, Larry Osborne wrote this book called Sticky Church. And the whole

idea of is how do you increase the stickiness of your church so that when people come, they

actually stick around and they stay. And the answer is again and again, you have to get

people meeting in smaller groups in more intimate settings. Because in a big church, you can

just, I don't know, you can just feel like a number. And it doesn't really matter how

wide your front doors are and how many people are streaming in the front door. If your back

door is wide open and everyone's just walking out again, in the end, it's what, you know,

that's the point. So yeah, so I would actually for that reason say that it should be a priority

today still, even though we have church buildings, it actually needs to be a priority. In fact,

I think lots of churches do make it a priority because this is well known.

Yeah. Yeah. They may not use the word hospitality, but they're opening up their homes to small

groups. You know, there are so many different ways in which people are connecting both within

the building and outside, outside of the service. You're recreating some of the conditions of

the early church in different ways here without necessarily calling it church. Right?

Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

So one of the things that is central, especially to every service here at Trinity and to a

lot of churches is the communion table. It's really this moment where we extend a kind

of hospitality, right? That is first extended to us by Christ. But it's also obviously a

bit bigger than just a meal and just hospitality, that it's something that has a significance.

And so in scripture, in first Corinthians, Paul talks, spends some time talking about

communion, how important it is that we take it in a worthy manner, that it's something

that we take seriously. But I guess at Trinity, we don't spend a lot of time necessarily talking

about that specific aspect of communion. You don't stand up there and issue an invitation

to take this seriously. Right. Right.

So what does that look like for Trinity? Why don't we do that? Is there another way that

we're doing something similar? So first of all, I'm actually really glad

that the meal, Trinity's, that we do celebrate communion every week, especially during a

series like this. It just felt like the perfect culmination of what we were talking about

to just continually be gathering around a table. And I know different churches have

different traditions and some do communion once a month or once a quarter or something

like that. Yeah. But I think I really felt glad as we went through this series that communion,

the Lord's Supper is so central to the life of Trinity. Now, so I think the question that

you were kind of asking was like, though we do this, it's not the same thing as just a

meal. Right? So is the question like, why are we not being more strict?

Yeah. Why don't we have a more sort of somber approach to it? Or if this is something that's

really central, why issue an open invitation? Right. Okay. So this is the theology of Holy

Communion, I guess, whether, yeah. So actually that's a good point. In fact, this past summer

we had a clergy who was filling in for me, great person, but just had come from a slightly

different tradition. And when it came time for communion, I believe this person did issue

kind of a more strict, say, you know, listen, if you want to come to the table, you need

to examine your heart, you need to, don't eat or drink unworthily of the bread and the

wine, you know, make sure that you're in the right place spiritually before you come up

here. And I think people were a little bit, oh, we're not used to hearing that. Usually

Rob's like, Hey, everyone is welcome to come to this table. And I want to say, I appreciate

there's all different perspectives on this out there. And they stem from what you were

referencing in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, right? I think this is a really, this is a really,

1 Corinthians 11 · chapter mention

really good conversation to have. But actually, maybe what I could ask you is that when you

hear Paul say things like examine yourself and make sure you're not eating of this in

an unworthy way, what do you think people think he means? What does it mean to eat of

this unworthily? What is he warning against in the minds of most of the people that are

there?

Yeah, I think so for me in traditions where I grew up, it meant at the very least that

there's some sort of opportunity for confession before you come to communion, which is something

that we do practice here at Trinity. That yeah, you're not coming up and partaking of

communion knowing that you are holding on to some sort of sin, knowing that you're coming

to this with just an unrepentant heart.

Right. Yeah. Kind of that self-examination thing.

Yeah. And that can tie to what communion has traditionally been meant to symbolize as well

if it is Jesus' death and a broken body. Then you are asking people into a more contemplative

space to think about it, why he came, what he's achieved through that process. And then

communion becomes a little bit, in some traditions, at least the one I grew up in, an embodiment

of that redemption story. And so I think some of the motive behind questions like that is

that redemption story as much as it is open to all being articulated so that we're not

simply thinking this is a celebration of food together. It's more than that. There is quite

a deep sort of association with what Christ has achieved through this process. And so

that, I think, is part of where the question might come from as well.

Yes. I think you're right. I think what you've shared is probably what most people think

when they hear that admonition from Paul. It is actually interesting to look back and

see what was the thing that he was warning against. And I think when we understand that,

it might change how we feel about what they sometimes call putting a fence around the

table, making sure. Because if you look in 1 Corinthians 11, he says, beginning at verse

17, he says, there's something I got to talk to you about that I do not support what you're

doing. I don't commend you for this. He says, I hear that when you're coming together that

there's divisions and there's factions among you. And then maybe that meant that he had

heard that some people were, maybe there was different divisions, socioeconomic divisions.

Maybe they were like, sometimes one group of people might have said, we take our lead

from this apostle or we take our lead from this, whatever. There might have been various

divisions. But then he goes on to say that when you come together, it's not really that

you're eating the Lord's supper. When the time comes to eat, each of you just goes ahead

with your own supper. And so one goes hungry and another becomes drunk and so on. So what

he's railing against here is he's saying that, listen, you get together for communion. Now

back then they didn't do communion like we did. It wasn't a little piece of bread. It

wasn't a little glass of wine or a cup of wine. It was a meal. So when they came together

for that meal, the problem was that maybe some people got off work early and got there

sooner than others and maybe some people were wealthier and others weren't so wealthy. So

the eating became this kind of, it wasn't a unified experience. It was all broken up.

Some people had great food. Other people had very little food. Some people were getting

drunk. Other people, you know, so this is what he's complaining about. And then he goes

on in verse 22 to say, by doing this, you show contempt for the church of God and you

humiliate those who have nothing. Okay. So I think it's just really important for us

to understand that when Paul says later on, he says that when you're eating the Lord's

supper in an unworthy manner, you might say, well, what's the unworthy manner? That's the

unworthy manner. The unworthy manner is people are coming together, not caring for each other

and actually in some ways excluding groups because this group's going ahead and this

group's not, this group's rich and this group's poor and this group's haves and have nots.

So that's what he's actually condemning. That's the unworthy manner. Now, then he actually

gives that very famous passage where he says, for I received from the Lord while I also

handed on to you that on the night that Jesus was betrayed, he took bread and da da da.

And he goes and gives this very famous account of the words of institution of the Lord's

supper. But it's really important to note that he emphasizes the plural nature of the

you, right? So he says, this is my body that is given for you. And I mean, I know in English

we say you could be singular, could be plural, but this is the plural use of it. So you,

all of you, this is my body that is given for all of you.

For y'all.

For y'all. That's right. Do this as often as y'all eat it. Do this as often as you all

drink it. For as often as you all eat the bread and drink the cup, you all proclaim

the Lord's death until he comes again. So I think that I really do think what he's trying

to do is he's trying to say, you all need to be together in this, right? And if there's

this broken up nature of what's happening, then you're actually eating and drinking judgment

on yourself. You're not discerning the body of Christ here. So then, but I mean, it should

be clear to us because then in verse 33, he kind of concludes and it's very clear. He

says, so then, therefore, therefore, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat,

eat for one another. If you're hungry, eat at home so that when you come together, it

will not be for your condemnation. So that was a long Bible study, but I think my point

simply is this. We think that the risk of condemnation when you come to the Lord's Supper

is that, oh, I didn't, I don't have enough faith or I didn't confess my sins or I, you

know, I didn't, I'm eating it unworthily. Like I'm not worthy somehow. Or maybe that

intellectually you haven't assented to all the kind of creedal beliefs of the Christian

church. And if you haven't got that right, then don't come to the table because you're

not rightly, whoops, gosh, you're not rightly discerning the body of Christ. But I don't

think that's what he's saying at all. He's saying that you're, sorry, Jordan, would you

grab that? He's saying that it's actually more when you are excluding people, that then

you're not rightly recognizing the body of Christ. So it's almost like the exact opposite

of what people think of me.

Yeah, no. So it makes me think about this idea of like an individual faith or an individual

experience of faith versus a corporate experience of faith. And in our Western sort of modern

culture, we tend as a generalization to be a bit more individualistic and to think, okay,

my relationship with Christ, my having a right relationship with Christ is really just about

me and Christ. Whereas where Paul is coming from is really actually saying, no, having

a right relationship with Christ is also about how you relate to the other folks in the church

around you. So like coming and taking communion in a worthy manner is just as much about how

you are relating to your neighbor as it is about how you are relating to Christ.

Yeah. And who's worthy anyways? Here's the question. If you think, okay, I'm worthy,

I can now worthily, then maybe that's a sign that you're actually not worthy. And again,

I just go back to that supper where Jesus instituted those words. Look at who was at

the table with him. Were these worthy people? He ate this meal with a guy he knew was going

to betray him to death, right? Sitting beside him, somebody else who was going to deny him,

the rest who were going to flee from him, were they eating and drinking in a worthy

manner? Were these people who had kind of figured it out? No. So anyways, for all those

reasons, I do feel like I'm going to, I feel comfortable erring on the side of being more

open in the invitation for people to come to communion and not to kind of, I think it's

actually a misreading of first Corinthians 11. I don't know. Maybe Jordana, you're thinking

deeply about this. I'm thinking about that balance between opening up the table to everyone,

knowing we come because we are not worthy in so many ways. And that is never going to,

should ever be a barrier to anyone coming. And at the same time, holding true to the

middle passage that you spoke about, what does it signify? It is signifying this redemptive

arc, right? And so in the effort to open up, to not lose the heart of what is being offered,

right? I mean, there's, so on the one hand, and I think that's where I think some of the

tension lies when we open something up so widely and it's right that everyone be invited

at any stage of questioning. To what, is it simply just, I mean, to what extent are we

also holding onto the heart of communion as associated with the body and blood and death

of Christ, right? And that's sort of where I would sort of wonder how to articulate it

in a way that really does make people feel welcome into the story of redemption, collectively.

It connects with, I think another question someone submitted, which was around inclusivity.

Yeah, I was going there. Yeah, somebody was maybe, was that a question?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can absolutely go there. I mean, you spoke about, you know, as we open

up hospitality to people who are different, who are marginalized, right? You use the word

inclusive. Now that's a very modern word. It really just takes off. It comes up in the

1980s in academia. It just really takes off in the last 15 years, right? So is it simply

inclusivity we're talking about here or is what is on offer something deeper, something

more, something different, something complimentary? Could you reflect on that relationship?

So yeah, you said it's a new word and that's actually kind of new to me. Because when,

so when Jesus gets accused, says, oh, when the disciples get asked, why does your teacher

eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners? Could they not have just, is that not also

to say why does he include tax collectors and sinners? I mean, it seems to me there's

no doubt that whether inclusivity is a new word or an old word, Jesus demonstrated some

version of that. In fact, in theology, there is this, the gospel of inclusivity is kind

of a whole take on what Jesus was doing with his open commensality that was happening at

tables. But I also totally agree with you. The word inclusive has come to mean all sorts

of things, right?

Yeah. And it has particular valences now, which is what I was asking you to reflect

on.

Yeah. I think that it is true. I firmly believe the gospel is very inclusive. I think a couple

weeks ago we talked about, you know, God so loved the world, right? And that there will

be this untold number of people around the throne, a multitude, which nobody can count.

We read in the book of Revelation. So I think there is this grand scope of who's included

that probably boggles our minds, right? But I will also say, and I would agree to, the

gospel is also exclusive in another sense, right? There's this, Jesus, you know, John

14, six, you know, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except

through me. Acts 412 says, there is no other name under heaven given to humankind by which

we may call on and be saved. So there is this like, there is this exclusive, there's this

exclusive, like Jesus is Lord and if Jesus is Lord, then no one else is, right? Like

you can only have one master, right? So I agree that there is this inclusive invitation

that is offered, but there's also this exclusively unique Jesus that, yeah, but I think actually

that, I think it was John Wesley had this approach to Holy communion. And I don't know,

some of this might be, the myth of this may have grown over the years, but he said that

the table, the table can be both a, communion can be both an ordinance of confirmation.

That is, it can be a place where you can, you've already confirmed, you believe in Jesus

and, and so, and so therefore you're coming only to confirm something you already believe.

But he also said it can be a table of conversion. So, so that coming to the table, being invited

to the table is in fact a step toward your heart being changed and converted. And I,

to me is, yeah, anyways, I'm talking too much, but that, that there, if you look at the story

of someone like Zacchaeus, so here was a horrible dude, right? He was unjust. When Jesus invites

himself over to Zacchaeus place to eat with him, is he whitewashing all of Zacchaeus'

injustice? No, not, not really, because actually how the story ends is this, this meal that

he shared became the opportunity, became the place where Zacchaeus experienced profound

conversion. He stands up and says, I'm going to give half of everything I have to the poor.

If I've defrauded anyone, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pay them back, what

was it, four times, three times as much. I can't remember, three or four times as much.

So there's a good example of how an inclusive approach by Jesus, right? He's, he's, he's

including the worst guy in town, but the result of it, the consequence of it is he, he comes

to repent. He comes to turn from his evil ways and, and starts fresh in this moment

of conversion. So anyways, yeah, yeah, that's a lot, but I think inclusion, exclusivity,

they're both happening here, but I think that actually inclusive nature doesn't mean that

there's not like a real conversion or a real change that can happen in somebody's life.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's different people are sort of wired differently, right? Like

the, there are some people who like a sermon, an intellectual sort of way of going through

things is what's going to like be a really significant spiritual moment for them, right?

Where they're going to learn a new thing and they're going to just know in their, in their

mind or in their heart that this is, this is real, this is what's happening. But there

are other people for whom they could listen to you or to any teacher for, for hours. And,

and it just, it would never make sense, right? But it's that moment of whether it's communion,

whether it's, you know, a prayer with someone, whether it's a hug from a friend, like whatever

it is, it's that tangible thing. It's that meal together. It's, it's that moment that

yeah, is more spiritually significant for them. And so I think, yeah, bringing both is, it's

just more helpful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've all heard that cliche, right? And people don't

care how much you believe until they, no, people don't care what you know until they

know how much you care, right? So, or, or that whole idea of which comes first, is it

belonging or believing? Right. Right. And I think for many years, the church said you

have to believe first and then you can belong, i.e. participate fully in this meal. But,

you know, is it true? Is it possible that actually belonging comes first ahead of believing?

And it's actually by participating in this meal, by, you know, taking the bread and taking

the wine that, that you actually come to believe, oh my goodness, this is true. This is real.

You know, Jesus died for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the other things that Jesus often

does at meals is, uses them as opportunities for evangelism or discipleship. So, you were

just talking about Zacchaeus, how there's something, whether Jesus preaches a sermon

or not is not, maybe not the point, but there's, there's evangelism and there's discipleship

happening around that table. Yeah. But for us, evangelism and discipleship feel like

really big concepts, really scary things that are hard for us to do. So, are there ways

that you think we can incorporate some practices of evangelism and discipleship into our own

practices of hospitality? It's a good question. And I think it has to be very just carefully

discerned. Because look, if you invite people over to your home and it's clear to them that

you have a mission to share the gospel with them in a way, then it could actually take

away from the intimacy that is so important in these moments. It could make them feel

like, oh, I see what this was about. This wasn't really about becoming friends. This

was about you sharing the gospel with me. For some people, when you have them over,

that door may open and it may just be the most natural and beautiful thing ever to say,

well, here, let me share with you how Jesus has made a difference in my life. And then

boom, you're right into it and it works. But I think you think our agendas maybe just need

to be set aside and really trust the leading of the Holy Spirit in those moments. Yeah.

I don't know if you've, it's a hard one. It is. And I think you're right that it has

to start with discernment. And lots of prayer. Yes. Because it's in the end, the Spirit's

convicting work. We are asked to open our homes to care for people, to share when the

opportunity comes. But I would imagine that being more sensitive to people, to really

just caring about them and praying is all prelude to evangelism. Yeah. And sometimes

it's, I mean, when you invite someone into your home, you're kind of giving them an inside

look at your life, at your marriage, at your parenting, at your, you know, and so there's

always going to be an unspoken or maybe an unintentional kind of way that your life can

speak. You know, I think if someone came into your home and they were just like, wow, I

love the way that Jordana relates with her kids. I mean, that's wonderful. Or I just

watched how she worked through that problem with her little guy and man, she was so patient

and I wish I could be patient like that. And so I think that those are real things people

notice too, that become, you know, stepping stones toward evangelism. I wonder what it

is about Jordana that allows her to stay so calm in a moment like that when I would just

lose my cool, right? Well, how do you do that Jordana? Well, let me tell you, you know?

And so there is like, there is something like that that I think can happen. Just the witness

of our lives. Not that our lives are perfect. But yeah, I think that it's, I mean, look,

meals don't save people. No, Jesus saves people, right? The meal becomes just the context.

It just becomes the place where it's almost like you're just facilitating this opportunity

where Jesus can come and do his work. This is, I just thought of this, but I started

by talking about how, you know, we kind of become Jesus to others and that we carry on

his ministry of hospitality. But don't forget, the Bible also says that others become Jesus

to us in these interactions too, right? Whether it was somebody who is, you know, the sick

or the hungry or the child, you know, whenever you welcome a child, Jesus says, you welcome

me. Whenever you welcome one who sent me, you welcome me. You know, like there was the

sick, the poor, people have entertained angels unknowingly. So I think there has to also

be humility when we enter into these kind of moments with people that it may not be

that I'm here to tell you something you need to hear. It could be that God is actually

speaking something to you through this person, that God has actually come and is sitting

down with you now and you need to be aware the message might be running the other direction

too.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sort of building on that, there's something almost perhaps

inherently, but there's something spiritual about sharing a meal together. Even if we

never talk about the spiritual things, like I think that there's still value in feeding

people. There's still value in relationship and building a community. So whether we explicitly

talk about spirituality and discipleship or not, I think that there's still something

spiritual happening.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're earning a hearing for, you know, evangelism is such a long process

that yes, some people might be able to witness the moment where somebody kind of finally,

you know, makes that decision to say yes to Jesus and trust him. But there were probably

countless other people that came ahead of that person and their job was just much simpler.

It was just to have a meal with them to like say, oh, these Christians aren't as bad as

I thought, you know, or that, you know, to kind of soften them up, to kind of force them

to reconsider maybe some of their long held prejudices against the church or whatever.

Like, you know, there could be, yeah, you're right. Just having a meal is part of the journey

for that person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then are there ever times when as Christians we should be hesitant to offer hospitality?

Yes, I think so.

Okay.

What do you think?

I mean, it's a question about boundaries, about, you know, what can we do in a healthy

way? We're not living, we're still this side of the eschaton. You know, there are, as you

said, there are risks which we must take, but there's also responsibilities to it, safety.

I'm just, I just love some thoughts and guidance on that.

Yeah. You were going to say something?

Yeah, no, I was just going to say, like, I don't know if there are times when as a Christian

I feel like I shouldn't be offering hospitality, but there are definitely moments when I, as

a single woman, don't feel like I should be offering someone hospitality. Right? And so

whether that's about my Christian identity or just my identity as a person in the world.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean-

And you can create the boundary between that too strongly and it's not, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I mean, we were talking about family earlier on, right? And I think that

that's one thing you probably, we need to remember is our family is also a priority.

And so if somehow our offering of hospitality is creating a risk or a distraction from what

is also one of our key responsibilities, that's, you know, providing a home environment that's

safe and where our kids can be nurtured, then I think, yeah, we probably need to pay attention

to that. Like, we're not going to do this at the expense of our family or at the expense

of our marriage or at the expense of, but I also think secondly, you're right. Like,

you also don't want to do it at the expense of your like mental health either. Like, we're

busy and if hospitality is just, you're pushing it so much that actually it causes you to

burn out, then I think that's also, you're kind of, you're not listening to your body,

you're not listening to your whole life.

So-

You're not listening to your limitations.

Yes.

I think very often we get so guilty for not doing so much, but it's again, as you said,

it's not all on us. We share the responsibility, Christ is working and we're limited human

beings.

And yet I think at the same time, we would have to say that hospitality is always going

to be messy. It's not going to fit comfortably into, we're never going to get the perfect

place. So I think, yeah, we got to exercise some caution. We have to definitely exercise

lots of wisdom, but even then we got to be willing to accept the cost, the inconvenience

and to err on the side of compassion and opening up our homes. So yeah.

Yeah. No, I think there's a difference and sometimes the line is fine, but there is a

difference between this being an inconvenience and this being a thing that I actually can't

handle today. Right? Like there, and discipleship is supposed to be costly in some sense. It's

not always going to be comfortable and easy. And so I think we need to stop and ask ourselves,

okay, am I feeling uncomfortable because this is awkward or am I feeling uncomfortable because

this is actually not something that's healthy for me and my household to enter into at this

moment?

Yeah, that's right. And only you can answer that question. Yeah. Yeah. You certainly don't

want to sacrifice your own health or the healthier family to be hospitable. I guess, I don't

know. It's a tough call.

Yeah. Yeah. So we just want to wrap up with one more question. So at the beginning, you

mentioned that Jesus was called a glutton and a drunkard, which are probably, you know,

not very nice terms that you would want to be called yourself. So what do you think about

this? What does that say about Jesus' reputation? And does it say anything about what our reputation

should or shouldn't be?

Yeah. I mean, do you think Jesus was a glutton and a drunkard? Or do you think he just-

I think it was called for he partied all the time. He just enjoyed people so much, you

know?

Yeah. I think that it could be that actually Jesus did enjoy eating and drinking. And that

could be one. The other thing, it could just be that it was slanderous and it was because

of the people he hung around with. And so it was just like a way of, you know, kind

of stretching the truth and, you know, telling, you know, trying to paint him in a poor light.

But I think that it does raise a question about who we, who do we hang around with.

I can remember maybe not so much here at Trinity, but I've been at some other churches and we've

talked about, you know, hey, it's important for you to kind of mix and mingle with people

who maybe aren't believers and to also have friends who aren't all from the church. And

some people would really actually like, oh, I don't, all my friends are at church. All

my friends are churchgoers or believers. I don't even know who I would invite. And so

that's a bit of a warning sign that when everybody in your life and all the people you hang out

with are already believers or followers of Jesus, then I think we need to hear that,

you know, Jesus himself mixed and mingled with those who, you know, who we might say

are far, we're far from God or far from church. And that became actually his reputation. And

I just wonder like, is that my reputation that I'm always hanging? Probably not. No.

And but yeah, I don't know. I guess it just, it just does make me wonder like, what is

our reputation as a people? You know, what do people think about us? And are we willing

to risk our reputation? Maybe to be seen in the company of other people that people may

look down on? Are we willing to take that risk ourselves? I don't know.

Well thank you so much Jordana and Rob for sitting down with me today. This has been

a really good conversation. Yeah, it has been. Thank you. Yeah. And so I hope that you have

also enjoyed this conversation together. And yeah, that you can go forth and sort of think

about some of these things and how can you stretch yourself a little bit to practice

more hospitality. Until then, we'll see you next week.