Honesty, Struggle and Lament | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla Alonis and

I'm the online engagement director here at Trinity. And this week I am sitting down with

Libby and we're going to chat about lament. And so if you don't know what lament is, that's

actually where we're going to start. Yeah, so just chatting about what is lament and

what does it look like to sort of pray through difficult times. So Libby, thank you for joining

me. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. So what would you say? How would you sort of define

lament? Well, this isn't a theological answer. There's not a lot of big words in it, but

to me it's a fully honest exchange with God. You know, being honest about what's difficult

and bringing it to Him, but also then in the end remembering who He is so that you can

trust Him and leave it with Him. I think, you know, yeah, honesty is really, I mean,

what lament is because everybody's got something that's hard, right? And you know, if you can't

bring it to God, who can you bring it to, right? So yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think for

me when I think about like what lament is, it's really kind of a wrestling, right? Like

you said, it's that honesty, but it's an honesty within this paradigm of like life sucks and

God is good. And like, how do we bring those two things together? Yeah. And recognizing

that those two things can be true at the same time. Yeah. Right. Because it's the grander

plan is bigger than any of us, right? Not just those of us who are present here, but

like across time and space, right? It's a bigger, bigger plan. We know, we don't know.

That's all we know. We don't have to understand, right? To know that we can trust Him. That's

one thing that's perfectly clear all the time is that He is trustworthy and faithful. And

so, I mean, we spoke about this before, but you know, it's just a deep relationship with

God, right? And that would be the same with a relationship with anyone, right? A friend,

somebody that we trust. You know, our relationship grows deeper as we go through difficult things

together and we share those achings in our heart and those struggles, right? Trusting

that person, right? The relationship grows deeper. So, it's very important for us to

bring those things to God, right? To show God our heart for Him and that we see Him

for who He is, right? That faithful, loving Father, right? And it's a good exercise for

us to remind ourselves that we know who He is, you know? Because we can forget sometimes,

you know?

Yeah. And as you sort of said, lament, I think typically has at least sort of three parts

to it. So, there's this idea of protest of saying, God, this is not fair. God, this is

not okay. I don't like this thing. And then moving into a sort of petition or asking God,

okay, so God, like this isn't fair. What are we going to do about it? God, come and like

do a thing. And then as you said, ending in praise or trust and recognizing, yeah, God

is who God says He is. And so, like, we can leave it in God's hands.

And there's power in that, right? There's energy in that. I think right now, you know,

there's a lot of people who are struggling right now and feeling, you know, really like

it's a super dark, heavy thing that they're dealing with and they can't come through it.

But before despair, you know, get in there and tell God how it is you're feeling. And

when you leave it with Him, the weight of it lifts enough that you can do something

about it. You know, like if we just complain and we just wallow, it depletes our energy

and it makes us impotent. And that just, you know, then this is just a spiral, right? But

when we come to God with it, it changes things, right?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, in your own life, what role has lament played in your sort of

spiritual life?

Honestly, it's sort of always been there and I didn't, I mean, I couldn't name it. But

I suffered the loss of my father at a really early age, seven. And a lot of really well-meaning

people said a lot of really stupid things to me about God that made me really angry

at God. I remember people telling me, Jesus, you know, Jesus took your father home. And

I was like, this is home. I am home. And I remember shaking my fist and saying, you know,

Jesus, what's the deal? Like, you were up there, you're fine. You have your father.

Why are you going to take my father? Having all these arguments, but then also knowing

that God loves me too. So, it's a wrestling. There's been a wrestling with that my whole

life, right? Knowing that suffering is happening and God is in it. You know, not causing it,

but in it with me, right? And I have to say, like, through that whole time growing up without

my dad, I always had this sense that I wasn't alone, right? And I've really embraced the

idea of God as father, right? And I was still mad. All that was true all at the same time,

you know? But I was still really angry, you know? But, you know, God comes through and

God provides. And I was taken care of, you know? And then when I met my husband, I met

my father-in-law who is an amazing man. And, you know, and I have a dad now, like a dad

that I can wrap my arms around and hug too, you know? But I never saw that coming. That

was forever away as a little kid.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think I would say a sort of similar thing that like before I

even knew the word lament that it just sort of is part of, like you said, it's part of

having a relationship with anyone, right? And so naturally, I think it becomes part

of our relationship with God. Yeah, and so I can remember, like I'm a journaler. I write

things down. And so like I can go back and look through my like teenage journals at like

all of the like angry ramblings at God and like all of these like terrible poetry and

like all of these things. It's like, I am not okay right now, God. And like, what are

you doing about it?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, you have that? I did that, but I don't have it. I wish I did. I'd love to go back

and see.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting for me to think about like, yeah, that this isn't something

that is modeled super well in churches, right? It's something that we've both said sort of

came naturally to us. But at a certain point, we sort of come to realize, oh, well, nobody

else around me is doing this. Right? And then it becomes this like weird, what do I do with

it sort of thing?

Yeah, it's like a polite thing where we behave in front of each other and then nobody thinks

anybody does. You know what I mean? Like it creates this false idea that it's totally

normal to just be happy all the time. We should always be happy all the time. Like, that's

weird. Right? That's not normal. Yeah. I mean, we have a really hard time, I think, I mean,

even as society, right? I think there was this book I was reading a few months ago and

I was just like, aha, right? Where this author was just talking about in society now, like,

we're not allowed to be sad. We've lost the rhythms of emotion where there's a season

for sadness, there's a time for that and to go through it, not avoid it, not pretend it's

not there. Right? But now I think, you know, I think a lot of the cause for depression

and stuff with everybody is that we don't get to be sad without it being like it's wrong

to be sad. Like, I can't think of anything more right than to be sad. When something

is wrong, you can be sad. Yeah. You know, and you can know that, you know, God has a

plan and that God has you. You don't have to like it. Like, you don't have to enjoy

it while it's happening and you're sad. You're sad. You know, and when you're sad, God is

sad for you. Like, he loves you so much. The thought that you have to pretend to be happy

with him is a really dangerous thought. Right? Because you're not seeing him for who he is.

You know, and I think, when I talk about what makes God angry, I think that would make God

angry. You know, this idea that he can't handle it. Right. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah. Which like

makes me think of something else that I read recently, which is that like lament is actually

an act of faith. Right? That without faith, we can't really lament because to lament is

to say, to believe at least that God is listening. Maybe God isn't going to do what I want God

to do, but God at least hears me and is worth venting to. Right? And so lament is an act

of faith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's important. And I think for me, one of the first places

that I started to like hear lament as a word and like think about it as a spiritual practice

was in a community of folks working towards like climate justice and ecological justice.

And in those spaces of justice work and advocacy, it's so easy to get focused on the like doing

of the thing and like, okay, we need to push for the next thing. But you're constantly

faced with disappointment. You're constantly faced with like, this is hard. Yeah. And you

don't win every battle. And so like lament is actually what like keeps you human. Yeah.

In those spaces. Right. Yeah. And probably gives you the energy to keep going. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. This is a God who also cares about these things. This is God who's also, you

know, weeping for the state of the earth. I'm not alone here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when

you think about lament, what are some of the things that you think lament offers to the

church? Why is this important? Oh, I think it's usually important. It's hard to do. Sure.

It's hard to get people to want to do. Sure. Everybody wants to sing about the happy things,

right? About how it's worked out. Yeah. Right. They want to sing about all the wonderful

things that God has done. Right. And that's good. Right. Because that's true. But not

in the context of there's something we need you to do. Right. To cry out in lament and

say something's wrong, God. Yeah. We need you. And then because you do these things,

because you can do these things, because only you can do these things. You know, I think

people are afraid to do that sad thing together. Right. Lament is sort of seem to be like a

very private thing. But I think it would be incredible if we could lament as a larger

group. You know, if we and it would take time, right? Just like any relationship takes time

to build that comfort with each other, right? Yeah. But you know, just like we get support

and worship with each other when we're talking about all the reminding ourselves of the goodness

of God and of how, you know, he can do anything. There's nothing he can't do. Yeah. And that

he loves us and he's on our side. But that's good that we remind each other of that. But

we can also, you know, in weeping together in lament, we can also just by standing shoulder

to shoulder while we do that, just acknowledging that you're not the only one who knows that

God is with you, but it's not okay. It's that validation that we bring to each other when

we do communal things. Right. You know, so lament is really important. It's really important

for us to acknowledge, you know, that there are, it is not okay, right out there. Yeah.

And it's not been okay for a real long time. Yeah. And, you know, we can't put blinders

on or we won't be able to do anything about it, you know, because we have a role as his

hands and feet. And if we, if we keep, you know, staving off our own sadness and saying,

no, no, no, no, no, we won't be able to see anybody else's either. And we won't be able

to get involved in and do anything about it or lift a finger or give a shoulder. Right.

Right. It's just, you know, it's that healthy. We need to go through a range of emotions,

right? Yeah. You know, we need to celebrate together. We need to grieve together. We need

to, you know, do life together. Right. And, and so that's everything. That's all the ugly

parts and all the pretty parts and, you know, all the uncomfortable bits. And we need to

lean into that together. And that's, you know, that's, that's a challenging thing. I'm not

going to pretend that that's an easy thing to do, but, but I think that needs to be the

goal for us as we interact with each other as brothers and sisters in Christ is, is just,

let's lean into that uncomfortable bit together here for a minute. Let's talk about that.

You know, what, you know, and, and pray about it and it bring, you know, bring God in, invite

him in. He's there anyway. Invite him in and hear what he has to say. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

So, yeah, no, I think that, yeah, in, in society in general, but also in the church in particular,

we're so easy to be happy all the time. And we want, I think, I wonder if part of it comes

from this idea that like, well, you know, it's not very attractive to be sad. Oh yeah.

Right. Like we want people to think this is a great place to be. And so if we're all sad

all the time, people aren't going to want to come in, but actually, I think the opposite

is probably true. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that there are spaces where there are,

there are people who are looking for spaces to be sad with other people. Yeah. Well, it's

like a reality check, you know, the sanctuary should be a reality check as far as like,

okay guys, remember God, right? Like I know it's all that noise is going on out there

and we come together into the sanctuary to just go, right, okay. Let's, let's realign

our perspective here. Let's remember, you know, and, and, you know, the truth part of

worshiping in spirit and truth requires that if we are, people are sad, it's a thing. Yeah.

And they're going to be, and there's always somebody, you know, there's always somebody,

you know, even when we're having like, you know, Easter Sunday celebration, right? It's

like everybody is just on 11. They're super charged and super excited and you know, there's

somebody in there who cannot muster up the energy to let the words come out of their

mouth of celebration. Yeah. But being in that room, yeah, will help them. And their worship

is just putting their body in that space. Yep. Right? Their act of faith is putting

their body in that space where this adoration of God is happening and where they're going

to be reminded all the things they need to be reminded and that they're not the only

one who believes it. It might help them hold on a little tighter and kind of through, right?

I think we need to just acknowledge the fact that that's the case for all of us when we're

in there and when we're everywhere, right? Like that everyone is going through something

and we're just all in this sort of together, right? We're all at different spots and we're

all, you know, but we've all come together to recognize that we need God and He is here

with us. Yeah. And so we're here for each other in turn, right? For Him as an act of

love toward Him. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And in that way, actually, I think like churches

and faith communities have something really powerful to say to the wider culture, right?

That like we don't have it all together, but nobody has it all together. But at least we're

like trying to do it together. Yeah. Ideally. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like maybe you look

around our congregation on a Sunday morning and you're like, what do any of these people

have in common? Except that like we're trying to figure this all out together. Yeah. And

if we're not figuring all of life out together, right? We're just figuring out the nice shiny

happy bits. And like, what are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the messy stuff we need help

with, right? It's the messy stuff we don't want to go through alone. I mean, I love that

this church has like, has Stephen ministers, right? That their whole, you know, modus operandi

is just walking through the hard part. They're just there to walk through the hard part.

That's their, they're not, you know, they're not getting, you know, any outside benefit

other than the benefit of walking with someone through something. They're knowing that you're

there for them, right? And like, I love that we have that ministry at our church, right?

And that there's so many people, you know, being trained up in that, right? To walk through,

not around, not over, not under, and I was like, you know, but to go through and just

be a support. It's a good model, you know? It'd be good if everybody actually, I remember

when I first heard about the ministry, I was like, that sounds like something we should,

everybody should do. We should all take the training. It's extensive training. They go

through a lot to do, you know, there's a lot of training, but what a beautiful thing. What

a beautiful ministry, right? To take the time out of your life to give to someone you know

is suffering, to carve out that time and sit in it with them. Right? I love that, right?

Because a lot of people, like when they grieve, well, you've talked about too, and so have

I, this experience of people just want to say something to stop it. If you're hurting

and they just want to throw out some platitude or something, because they don't want to actually

sit in the uncomfortable with you. They just want to stop it, you know? It's so nice to

see a whole group of people that want to just actually get down in the dirt and sit there

with you until you're ready to get up. And then they'll stand up and they'll give you

their hand and they'll lift you up too. You know, like it's a beautiful thing, you know?

And yeah, I think lament plays such a huge role in our lives as Christians, you know,

because it just brings us closer to Christ. Everything we suffer brings us closer to Christ.

And it can bring us closer to one another too, right? And I mean, ultimately that's

what we want, right? It's all about relationship and connecting and to help us grow and to

help us be more impactful and to bring more people into relationship with Jesus, to radiate

that life in Christ, right? That is so attractive to the hurting person. You got to be willing

to go in there to the hurting bit to get them.

So there's almost these like two ways of doing lament or two sort of modes that we need to

do it in, which is like sort of what you were just talking about with the Stephen ministers,

that it's a sort of individual personal thing, either you and God or you and maybe one other

person. But then there's also like corporate lament. And so curious, your thoughts as a

worship leader, how do we bring in a corporate sense of lament and like, what does that even

look like?

It's so hard because people don't want to do that with other people. It's like I said,

right? Everybody, we want to sing about that, but we don't want to sing about the really

hard stuff. Like we don't want our eyes to leak in front of other people, right? No,

not me personally, because obviously I have no issue with that. Everyone's seen me doing

that. But I think, you know, we start, like I try to bring that in sometimes when, you

know, when I can sense, you know, we're going to be talking about something that's going

to be difficult for people. You know, sometimes I'll take the time in the offertory song and

I'll, you know, I'll purposely choose a song that it's going to do that. We're going to

cry. Okay. I'm not going to make you sing while you cry. You can sit while you cry because

we're not quite there yet. I don't think, but I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to just

model an authenticity in worship. That's sort of our thing. That's what we try to do. Just

get up there and actually worship in front of everybody. Let them see, you know, leave

it all on the altar and let them see that it's safe. Right? You know, go first in the

vulnerability. And, and I think we've had some success. Success is a gross word for

it, but we've had some, you know, we've reached people that way. Like it's helped people to

be able to cry together, you know, to be able to, to let it out and to know that it's a

safe place. I mean, that's a, it's a huge, there's a huge difference, right? When, when

all of a sudden for you, the sanctuary becomes a safe place. That's a whole other level than

what you're able to get out of our time together in there on a Sunday morning. Right? When

you're able to actually like let go and trust and feel safe, you know, that's huge. Right?

And that's, and that's a sign of that. Right? When you're able to sort of feel all the feelings,

even the uncomfortable ones in that space and just allow the Holy Spirit to do what

only he can do. Right? So, so yeah, I mean, that's, that's how I try to bring it in. I

love for us to get to the point. And I know this might sound weird, but I would love for

us to be able to get to the point where we could, as a congregation, cry, sing an ugly

cry. Like, and you know, it will not sound good, but it will be beautiful. Like nothing

else. You know, like it, there's something so beautiful about that, about sharing and

acknowledging the pain in the room, but with hope. Like it's not, it's not just getting

in there and crying. It's, it's knowing, okay, we're all, look at all of us. We are all acknowledging

the truth of what we're, you know, suffering through here, but we all have that hope. Yeah.

And we all know who God is in the midst of all of this suffering. We know who God is

and you look around and there's like 300 other people who are feeling just like you. Yeah.

And God is still there. You know, it strengthens you. Yeah. You know? So, I mean, I hope at

some point we can, we can get there and, and maybe we do. I mean, we've got four weeks

of this series. That doesn't seem like a very long time, but I mean, just over, just over

time, right? The more we learn and the more we go through together, I mean, I think, you

know, the next little while could potentially serve as a, as a real push toward us, you

know, experiencing that together, you know? And, but leaving room for everybody to enter

into it at where they're at. Sure. You know, because it, because that's part of it being

safe too. We wouldn't want to push anybody further than they're ready in the group. And

so, so we're like, we're all on a journey there. So we need to leave room and be respectful

in that regard too. But, but yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, we're not going to force them

all to cry. Well, you know, but you know, you don't, you don't, I mean, sometimes in

worship you have to be careful because as a worship leader, you have to be careful that

you don't, you don't want to manipulate people. Sure. Right? Like that's not the goal. You

know, you want to open something up, maybe, you know, I choose songs that maybe say difficult

things in a new way. Sure. You know, that might help someone to see it. And that, and

that's going to maybe cause an emotional reaction, but that's just, that's just something that

happens. That's a, that's like a consequence of it. But the idea is just to help you open,

to help you trust, right? It's not a manipulation. No. You know, so everybody will hear that

differently. Sure. There's room. It's, you know, I'm not trying, don't, don't come in

and cry because you think you have to. That's, please don't do that. You know, but also don't

come in and pretend you're okay because you think you have to. Like, I want to say that

too as a worship leader, you know, just come as you are. That's all, that's all he requires.

Come as you are, you know, because, you know, God is arranging that time in there together,

right? We're all, as we prepare, he's all those little bits and he's calling everyone

to be there and every single person in there is not there by accident. Yeah. And your experience

is meant to be with you in that space. Bring it. Bring all of you to the space. Right?

That's our job. And then God will do what God does. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I think for

me, like when I think about my experiences of lament and of hard conversations with God,

like music has often been central to that for me. I think partly because music just

like speaks to your brain and body in a different way. Right? And like you said, it allows you

to hear the difficult things in a new way, in a way that like preaching doesn't necessarily

get at my heart in the same way that maybe it gets at someone else's heart. But yeah,

so in that way, like having all of the parts of the service, like you just said, can sort

of facilitate this corporate experience that works differently on different people, but

hopefully unifies us all in something. Yeah. Yeah. So if folks are listening and they're

intrigued and thinking, well, okay, maybe lament is a good thing. Like how do they get

started? Oh my. I don't have a good answer. I just say just, just go for it. Like, I mean,

because for me, it was such a, just a natural thing for a little kid to do. Right? Little

kids are so just innately honest and they just do. Right. But you know, I say, get alone,

you know, and, and sit in silence for a little while. That's super uncomfortable. Right?

You think you have nothing to lament about. Sit, sit quiet and don't have your phone.

Don't have anything there to distract you. Sit in, sit in, sit in the silence for a little

bit. And I'm sure that, you know, whatever, whatever it is that you're really struggling

with, just tell God, tell him you don't, you don't like this. You know, and remind yourself

of his promises. Remind yourself that he, you know, you know, that, that he's, he's

there, but he doesn't feel like he's there. You know, it's okay to say that. It's okay.

You know, everybody says that, you know, I'm, you know, you're, you're going to be glorified

in this, but, but you're going to be glorified anyway. Aren't you? Why do I have to go through

this? Why is this going to be like, and just let it out. Let it out. Right. Like God, God

is so much bigger. Like it's not even close. He's so much bigger than everything that's

going on. And he's in it with you. Right. Right. And he knows anyway, right? We were

told right? The Holy Spirit. He knows anyway, say it out loud. So, you know, you told him.

Right. Like, so that you can know that you let it out, you know, but then always remember

and give thanks for everything else. Right. I mean, I sat this afternoon or this morning,

I was talking with my brother and we're talking about lament because I was saying, I'm going

to talk about this. And I was saying how you don't just stop at complaining. Like lament

is not just complaining to God. It's not venting at God. And then that's it. Right. That doesn't

do you any good. Right. Really. And he was saying, yeah, right. Like, like you, you've

got to remember and give thanks then. Right. You end with giving thanks to God for, for

who he is and for all that he's done. And he started listing all my things. And I was

like, yeah. And he just kept going. And I was like, right. Right. Yeah. Maybe my list

wasn't that long when I prayed my prayer, but yeah, you're right. All those things too.

Right. Like there's so many things I've started thinking about it right. That we have to thank

God for. And just make sure you end there. Make sure you get back to that and end there

so that you're not stuck. You know, you don't want to get stuck in it. Yeah. You need to

remember, right. All the things he's done before he'll do again. He'll, you know, he's

been there for you before, you know, you never saw the answer coming. And then there it was.

Right. It's happened before and he'll do it again. Yeah. Take a deep breath, leave it

at his feet and then go do whatever you can do about it. Right. Right. Yeah. Just, you

know, just, just try it. Right. Just speak the words out. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's

the only place I, I mean, that's what I can think to start. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. I think it, in some ways it's as simple as just doing it. Yeah. You know, lament.

It's this like word that I think you said before that sounds mystical. Yeah. It feels

really mystical, but it's like, it's actually just like having a conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I would add to that, that like lament isn't like a new thing, right?

Like lament is found all over scripture, right? And so like, if you're struggling to figure

out like, okay, what do I say? Or like, how does this work? Just like read your Bible.

There's a whole book called Lamentations. That's just like five chapters of Jeremiah

complaining to God about things. So like pick that up. Do that. Yeah. And if you're looking

for permission, there's the shortest verse ever, right? Jesus wept. Yeah. He modeled

it for us. You can weep too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the Psalms, like Rob did this whole series

this summer on the Psalms. And a lot of the Psalms are like, you know, happy and like

praise God for this thing. But like, yeah, like half of them are like, God, this actually

sucks. And like some of them are really, really graphic and like, wow, wow. Expressing a lot

of anger and rage, right? Like they're like, wow. Yeah. There's one about bashing heads

on a rock and like, whoa, if that's okay, surely, you know, I can discuss my discomfort

with my current situation. Yeah. Yeah. So just like pick up your Bible. Yeah. Flip it

open. There's somebody who's upset about something. Yeah. Type into Google imprecatory Psalms.

You'll get lots of help. Yeah. Right. It's easy to know which ones to look at and pray

them out. Yeah, for sure. They're a good template. Yeah, definitely. Good. Well, thank you so

much, Libby. This has been a really good conversation. Yeah. And just really helpful reminder that

we can be honest. Yes. Yes. With God and with each other. Yeah. And that actually that that's

that's human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And thank you

for tuning into this episode of Trinity Talks. I hope that you have found something helpful

in this. And yeah, you can walk away this week feeling more able to share your pain

and your hurt and your anger, hopefully with another person, but at least with God. And

we'll see you next week.