Words Christians Use: Explaining Lent & Sin | Trinity Talks Podcast

Welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks.

My name is Kyla. And I'm Bill. And I'm Johanna.

And we are so glad that you are joining us for

this conversation about Lent and about the idea

of sin, which are things that we sometimes talk

about in the church, but we don't always know

exactly what it is that we're talking about.

So hopefully we can clarify some things in our

little conversation this morning. Or muddy things

up more. Maybe that's also possible. Yes. We'll

see where we end up. Yeah. So, Lent, it's a thing

that we talk about. What is it? Oh, well, for

me, it's something that I've observed for quite

a number of years as I've been a Christian, and

I just find it as a great time of reflection,

of introspection, to kind of look in order to

see where I am in my Christian life and just

kind of make some adjustments or changes. It's

a common practice for Lent for people that observe

it to give something up. And I guess the idea

of that is that during this time of Lent, it's

generally a time of sacrifice. So you are not

doing certain things. So people have chosen to

give up, you know, cigarettes or drinking or

movies or TV or social media or whatever, any

number of things. And those are things that,

it tends to be things, people don't really give

up prayer or Bible study. It tends to be things

that maybe have a potential to have a negative

impact in their life. So they're removing something

that's potentially negative, which is great.

I think if you're every year, you're deciding

during Lent, those 40 days. that you're going

to remove yourself from social media or you're

going to stop smoking cigarettes or whatever.

And I think that in and of itself is great. but

I like to also put something positive in its

place. So when you're taking something negative

out of your life, good move for sure, but then

in order for it to become something that hopefully

continues beyond Lent and becomes part of your

character and your journey, your faith journey

as well, then I like to kind of try and add a

new positive habit in its place. So that might

be... an attitude of prayer, or Bible study,

or daily devotion, or something like that, or

just reserving the time that you would normally

have spent doing the thing that you've moved

from your life during Lent, and taking that time

to kind of read your Bible more, or to pray.

And hopefully that would, positive habit would

continue beyond Lent. And then year over year,

that helps kind of in your in your faith journey

to hopefully come closer to God. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I know. So you mentioned that Lent is 40

days, which is true. But actually, if you count

the calendar days, it's more than 40. That's

right. Because the 40 days of Lent doesn't actually

include Sundays, which led to this really interesting

conversation in my house one year. So I had decided

I was living with my parents, but I had decided

what if we gave up meat? for Lent. And my mom

was okay with it. My dad took a little bit of

convincing. But he said, but you know, Sundays

don't count. So on Sundays, we will eat meat.

And the rest of the 40 days will give up meat

for Lent. But yeah, it was just like interesting

thing. So do you know why Sundays don't count?

No, why don't Sundays? Sundays are considered

every Sunday is considered a little Easter. Okay.

That's fun. And so Easter is outside of Lent.

And so it's not counted in the days of Lent.

So technically, if you're giving up something

during Lent, you can celebrate Easter by enjoying

that thing even while you're... during the course

of Lent, but most people don't. They just continue

to deny themselves that thing over the whole

course of Lent, which I guess is better. Sure.

Yes. Unless you need that theological rationale

for a good steak. Or yeah, meet every Sunday.

That's a good idea. I approve. Yeah. I know,

Johanna, you maybe haven't really observed Lent

before. So like coming into it, hearing about

it in this church, is there anything about it

that like stands out to you? Well, I didn't know

it was 40 days. I thought it was like a week.

And the only part about it I knew was that people

fasted. I didn't know that you could give up

anything really that could potentially be a detriment.

So yeah, pretty much everything that you just

said is new information to me, which is very

good. Okay. Um, and so one of the reasons that

we have this focus on, you know, giving things

up for Lent is to spend more time, as you said,

in prayer and in scripture. Um, and this focus

on, you know, confession, especially, um, and

removing sin from our lives. Sin is another one

of those words that like, do we always know exactly

what we mean when we say that? Do we, do we like,

and like, we don't really like talking about

it. Um, yeah, so like, Johanna, when you hear

the word sin, like what? What do you think of?

I just think like actions, thoughts that separate

you from God. OK, that's just my definition of

it. So I'd rather like avoid those things. Sure.

Yes. Yeah. What about you? What do you think?

I think that's an excellent definition of sin.

I think anything that separates us from God is

can be considered or looked at as a sin. I think

it's I think sin in general is is often a difficult.

concept to get your head around it, especially

for the unchurched. I think it's often they either

see themselves as being good people and so they

don't need God or the church or they consider

themselves and in my work over the years, this

has been far often more the case where they consider

themselves too bad or nowhere near good enough

or never good enough. to ever possibly have a

relationship with God or to ever darken the doors

of a church. But I think for a lot of us who

do go to church, and we do think about sin every

now and then, that it is a thing that is kind

of important that we kind of do get our heads

around and understand. I think Harold, who's

the minister here for a lot of years, a while

back, when he talked about sin to us, he talked

about the Big S sin and the Little S sins. Have

you ever heard this before? I'm not going to

do it justice because he did so much better,

but I'm just going to try to give a little prescient

for us. Basically, he said that the Big S sin

was the original sin from Genesis, that original

understanding the knowledge of good and evil

that in some way got us closer to God, but ultimately

was the separation from God in the garden and

then cast out. So that was like the capital,

the uppercase S, sin. That's the theological

foundation, foundational understanding, the theology

of sin, where it got started. But what he would

often focus more on is the little less sins.

And that was all the things, like Johanna, like

what you just said, all the things that we do

that affect, negatively affect our relationship

and being in communion with God. And I mean,

there's too many things to begin naming. I mean,

we're going to talk about the seven deadly sins

and pride is certainly the first one that we

talked about this morning. But yeah, anything

that prevents us from being in a relationship

or a better relationship with God, anything gets

in the way. And a lot of times it doesn't necessarily

have to be, you know, you don't have to go straight

to murder. There's a lot of things in between

that and it doesn't necessarily need to be a

bad thing, but it's maybe something that takes...

It could be a good thing in and of itself, but

it's something that takes your attention away

from God. It becomes more of a focus in your

life than God. The common one is money. It's

not money that's the root of all evil. It's the

love of money that's the root of all evil. It's

the fact that money takes the place of God in

our life, where we're worshiping money instead

we're worshiping God. That love of money is the

sin. And if we focus on loving God, money and

other things has its place. And so I think that...

I think that's, you know, when we talk about

sin, you know, there's things that are in our

face, that we could be, you know, that we that

are is easier for us to steer clear of, because

they're obvious. And then there's a lot of other

little lessons that that creep up on us and are

just kind of, you know, like a lion in in weight,

crouching in the in the weeds, you know, they're

just like, wow, to pounce on us when we're not

looking. Right. Yeah. I can like escalate um

to like the little s's to the big s's I feel

because I used to have this teacher he used to

say um if you can lie then you can steal and

if you can steal then you can kill so just being

liable it was like a really extreme at the time

but looking back it's like okay she's using like

really extreme language to communicate to us

that like the little white lies and stuff that

we tell like it can lead to us normalizing further

sins and so to just If it isn't a button, be

aware of it from the start is probably best practice.

Yeah. That's great, Joanna. I love that sense

of escalation. It's just the beginning. It's

like a lobster in a pot. Yeah. When the water's

cold, it's not the bad thing, but when it raises

over time, you don't realize you're being boiled

alive. Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

So that's sort of what sin is. Why do you think

we don't talk about it? People don't like to

feel judged or called out. Okay. Like for me,

I'd rather be called out here on earth while

I still have time to like do something about

it and like fix it versus called out. And then

it's like the rapture and I'm gone and it's over

for me. So yeah, I'd rather be called out here,

which is why I think talking about sin is important.

I think it's, I think it's shame. too. I mean,

I know for me, I'm much more comfortable talking

about sin as the concept than my own sins lately.

That wasn't on your list. So I'm very grateful.

Thank you. But yeah, it is. As we deal with this

stuff is very personal. And it is good to have

someone, a peer or a confessor type person or

spiritual mentor that you can Go that deep with

to deal with this stuff because you need to deal

with it But but yeah, it's it's a difficult topic

to be honest about mm -hmm for sure Yeah, I mean

you started Johanna by saying like people just

like don't like to feel judged right? Yeah people

don't like that you get that pit in your stomach

and it's like, oh, I don't want to be like that.

But you are like that. So now what? You know,

and you try to justify like, well, I'm not like

that bad. Yeah, it's just a whole cycle. I feel

like you have the internal shame of being sinful.

And so you like deny or whatever. Like, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like it just makes me think about

if we don't like. to feel judged and something

about like sin language and like talking about

it. It feels like there's almost no neutral way

to talk about it. Right. Like, there's no way

that I can say, hey, Johanna, let's talk about

sin and for it to not be like, oh, Kyla has a

problem with me or like, oh, Kyla needs to like,

there's some problem in Kyla. Right. Like, I

need to confess. Right. Yeah. It's got all of

this like. Loaded baggage, I guess you're about

to start an intervention. Maybe. Yeah, it can

feel like that. Let's come and have a conversation.

Yeah. Oops. Yeah. Um, but I think you're also

right, like on the other hand, like you said,

you know, sometimes it's shame and people feel

like they are just like too bad, but some people

feel like they're like good. Right? And so obviously

I don't need to talk about sin because sin is

like murder and sin is, I don't know, these terrible

things that I would never do. Right? Yeah. So

I think why it's so important to talk about sin,

even though it's a difficult subject like you're

talking about, is that it kind of destroys the

basic building blocks of life, how God made us.

I think when I talk about you know, growing up

well, I say that there's three basic building

blocks, being, belonging, and believing. And

those things are crucial to us becoming the person

that God wants us to be. Being is about self

-worth and about growing in character and developing

into who we are. And belonging is our sense of

others around us, being part of a family, being

part of groups. I think we're built to be in

community. And that's a huge part of the positive

development of who we are. And then believing,

of course, is about believing in something. And

I tell people how important it is for us to believe

in something. It doesn't always have to be, I

talk about religion, but ultimately that's what

it needs to be. We've had people that have talked

about there being a God -shaped hole, I mean,

a hole in our heart that's God -shaped, you know,

that you could try to fill it with other things,

but only God is going to match, you know, matches

that hole in our heart. So, ultimately, it needs

to be God, it needs to be faith that fills that

believing need that we have as humans. But sin

destroys each of those building blocks, right?

So, when you look at belonging or, you know,

when you look at pride, as an example, because

that's what we talked about today, that it is

devastating because it separates us from God,

like not just pride, but all sin, right? It separates

us from God, it isolates us from others, and

it erodes us from the inside out. And so we have,

so the separation from God destroys believing,

the isolation from others destroys belonging,

and the erosion of self destroys well -being.

And so sin is that thing that just kind of destroys

the basic things in life that we need to be who

we are. So it's important to talk about that.

Yeah, for sure. And I think another reason that

I feel like talking about sin is so important

is because you can't walk through the world and

think that everything is okay. like you just

you it's it's impossible right like if anybody's

out there watching the news looking at what's

happening in in families in communities right

we just we all know something is wrong right

and like what i love about the sort of story

of the bible is that it gives us a framework

for talking about that right it gives us something

that says yeah the world is wrong and like here's

why but also like here's the hope that comes

through it right like Yeah, otherwise, we're

just sort of scratching our heads saying well,

why isn't the world getting any better? Yeah,

and that's what Rob did so well in the sermon

today about pride I think he did a great job

and I'm saying that not because I'm contractually

obligated to say that, but I think it's actually

true. I think he did a really good job at talking

about the different kinds of pride. And of course,

the first couple of those definitions, I was

going, yeah, that's not me. Yep, that's not me.

And then he said, oh, and if you're feeling really

good about not being prideful, well, that's pride

too. And I'm like, oh. Oh no. And then once he

kind of defined what pride was in many forms,

he talked about how we can deal with that and

pointed us back to God as a way to put our focus

on Him and not on us. Basically saying that pride

is when we focus on ourselves and if we keep

our focus on God, then we can avoid being prideful.

So that was great. Very simple and easy understanding

of what pride is. So we talked about sin as this

thing that separates us from God, but even that,

I mean, that's certainly a helpful place to start,

but even that feels a little bit, I don't know,

out there, conceptual, I guess. So what does

that actually mean? Do we have a sense of how

sin separates us from God or what that looks

like? Well, the first thing that comes to mind

would be that it distracts us from our walk with

God. So like, I don't know, just the specific

sin, I guess, I can't really name one, but just

like anything that kind of takes your attention

away from, you know, the good in the world and

like the Lord, and then like brings it to this

weird place that you're in. Yeah, yeah, that's

fair. I would say that there's a lot of definitions

of hell. and our concept of hell is described

in the Bible and cultural, you know, definitions

and stuff. But ultimately, what the Bible says

is hell is separation from God eternally. And

so, I think sin in our life is many hells, right?

Is experiencing hell on earth. And if we're in

a state of ... un -dealt with sin in our life,

then we're experiencing that separation from

God and we're experiencing hell. Or a little

taste of what it is going to be for eternity.

Right. But what about when the sin feels really

good? Right? I never said it didn't. Like the

gluttony that's like, maybe this isn't great,

but like that ice cream was fire. Right? Like

after you have like cramps in your stomach because

you ate so much. And it's like the after effects

will probably show up at some point. Yeah. I

mean, I can't argue with that. I experienced

that for myself. I mean, I enjoy the things that

I'm that I'm not supposed to do. And I sometimes

don't enjoy the things that I am supposed to

do. But the the what I've read. recently in my

daily devotionals and heard from Rob and Justin

at the men's retreat was that when we start to

focus our attention on God, which is then away

from sin, then we learn to like the things that

we do that are in relationship to being that.

giving that focus to God. And then we begin,

again, it's a discipline. It's something that

we learn. It's not a light switch turn on and

off. It's something that takes years to develop.

And I don't know if we ever perfect it, but you

learn to have that same, if not greater, it's

certainly a more positive enjoyment. of those

things, of being in worship, of singing praise

to God, of learning new things in the Bible and

applying that in our life. And just recently

having the opportunity to pray for someone and

just feeling like God was speaking through me

to respond like right then, like live action

prayer answers to prayer. If we can if we can

get our enjoyment from those things, then a big

bowl of ice cream maybe isn't as appealing as

it might have been or whatever else that we're

not talking about. Yeah, no, I think I think

you're right that there is a sense in which sin

can feel really good in a moment, sometimes not

always, but it's not ultimately fulfilling. Yeah,

right. There is there's a deeper. longing there,

right? It goes back to that, like, God -shaped

hole in your heart, right? Yep. That other things

can, like, do their best, but they're not actually

what we're doing for. We can spend our lives

trying to jam other things, other shaped things

into that God -shaped hole, and it's just not

going to work. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So this

morning, Rob talked particularly about pride,

and I think pride, I mean, he made this case

for it being this really sort of insidious thing

that's just sort of always there. But I mean,

I appreciated the way that he started by saying

like, you know, sometimes pride is we think of

it as maybe not a virtue, but as something like

that we want to cultivate in our lives. Right.

Yes. What did you guys think about that? Is there

a place for a healthy kind of pride? Is that

possible? I don't know. Yeah, I should think

so. OK, I hope so. I mean, I feel like it's a

fine line between being like, arrogant and just

like full of yourself and then recognizing yourself

for your strengths and stuff like that. Like,

I feel like you have to have that positive self

image, but it just can't be over, like it can't

be as much of a priority like this much. It has

to be like, I feel like base level just like

kind to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think

it is tricky because I think it can be both good

and bad. And so maybe it's kind of a double -edged

sword thing where it is good to have a certain

amount of pride. I mean, people talk about being

proud of their kids. I mean, that can't be a

bad thing. you do know when it's going a little

over the top and where maybe being proud of your

kids is maybe you're listening to too many stories

of how they've got A pluses and maybe that's

when it goes over the edge. But yeah, I think

there is. I think there's nothing wrong with

feeling good about ourselves, with feeling good

about... where we're at in our lives, feeling

good about the church we go to, feeling good

about the things that our family are doing. But

I think it might cross over a boundary when you're

pushing that or when you feel... Maybe when you

feel you need to validate yourself by talking

about all the good things that are happening

around you and possibly in comparison to the

person you're talking to might not be doing so

well or in such a good place and like, oh, look

how great things are going for me, right? So

yeah, you can cross the line, I'm sure. I know

it. Yeah. And I feel like it has to... all things

in balance, and sometimes it's hard to know where

that balance is, but I also think, especially

with Pride, it's one of those things where I

can't necessarily judge where the line is for

you, because it's all about, yeah, sort of what

is motivating my statements and behaviors, right?

Because if it's... I can be saying the same thing.

I can be saying, oh, I'm so proud of this piece

of art that I did. Now, please worship me. Right.

Or I can be saying, oh, I'm so proud of it. Like

I did. I feel like I did a good job on this.

Right. And like that's just a statement of fact

moving on. I don't need you to validate. Yeah.

Right. But it's like what what your motivation

is, I guess. It feels like a minefield. Yeah.

I, you know, even when you're I didn't even like

Rob said, it's like even when you're so humble

about your own humility, that's pride. I'm like,

can't get it right. Yeah. But I think it is a

minefield, but I also think it's super important

for us to figure out how to talk about in healthy

ways, right? Because I've been in... Christian

conversations where we talk about pride and what

we say is well just therefore like Self -deprecation

all the time, right? Avoid the pride by just

like hating on yourself and that is obviously

not a healthy way to do it and clearly not what

God Wants us to do right like God God made us

in God's image to like as good people and like

that doesn't mean I'm good all the time, but

like God's not wanting me to hate on myself.

No, I think we've been made good and we've got

the uppercase S sin that separates from God and

all our lowercase sins that separate us from

God. But we have God who has loved us enough

to send his only son to die for us on the cross

to eradicate all that sin that we could not do

for ourselves so that we can be in relationship

to. So we are, you know, we're good people who

have done some bad things and we have been redeemed

as we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. And

so we can be free of that and move on to sin

no more. I think, Bill, you had a prayer that

you wanted to end us with, I think. I do have

a prayer. Since we're talking about pride, This

is the prayer of the humble man by an American

theologian and hymnist named Willie Nelson. So

let's pray. Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble when

you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to

look in the mirror because I get better looking

each day. To know me is to love me. I must be

one hell of a man. Oh, Lord, it's hard to be

humble, but I'm doing the best that I can. Amen.

All right. Sorry. I mean, no, yeah, that feels

true. It's the prayer of the humble man. Yeah,

yeah. Some days that's just how it goes. Yeah,

good. Well, thank you so much for taking this

time This has been a really fun chat and looking

forward to journeying with you through this season

of Lent Yeah, and for those who are watching

and listening I hope that this has prompted some

thoughts for you as well And yeah looking forward

to continuing to journey with you through this

season of Lent. We'll see you again next week