Why We're Always Competing | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.

My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And we are

sitting down to talk this week about envy, which

is kind of a tricky thing to talk about, I think.

But hopefully we can have some really good conversations.

The first thing that I wanted us to sort of work

on and sort of clarify together is like what

is envy and is envy the same thing as jealousy

or is it a little bit different than that yeah

what what do we think yeah it can be used interchangeably

i think we very often do it yeah i think what

i think of is that jealousy has to do with what

you possess but you know jealousy can be used

in a different way sure than envy yeah he has

to do with other people's jealousy as new maybe

with what you have okay okay that's one way of

thinking other other thoughts i see them as pretty

much the same thing so it's very interchangeable

but um but um yeah i'd i'd uh i'd certainly be

interested in learning more about what the distinction

between the two are so johanna i did not know

that there was a distinction actually for me

let me clarify what i mean then it's it's you

can be jealous for your honor or somebody who

has been accused can be jealous for their innocence.

Like, there is a way of saying that, you know,

you're sort of protective. It's about protecting

something. Now it can be bad, you know, you're

sort of, this is mine, I don't share it sort

of thing. But you can also recognize that. when

you're like, God is jealous, they say, right?

Just and jealous God, right? He's jealous for

His own glory. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like others that

are not worthy of that worship. Yes. Right. I

see that as a different meaning of jealousy.

Yes, it's a slightly different meaning. As an

alternate meaning of jealousy as opposed to...

the meaning of jealousy, which is basically the

same as envy. I see what you mean there. So a

person could also be jealous for their own honor

or something, though what they're doing is protecting

it. So there is that sense of jealousy that's

not very used, I think, today. And that's not

necessarily a bad thing or a more positive use

of the word jealous or jealousy. Right. Yeah,

so then that actually helps to make sense of

like why we can talk about God is jealous. Yes.

Right? Because yeah, if jealousy, if we think

jealousy is the same thing as envy and envy is

a sin, then like God can't be jealous, right?

Because then we would be saying God is sinful.

But yeah, that helps make sense of it for sure.

Yeah, so humans and God can be jealous in a good

way. But as I said, that's not a very useful,

it's not a very common way of thinking of jealousy.

And most of the time we just think of being jealous

of somebody else, in which case it's almost the

same as envy. Right. So if we're talking about

the definition of envy, I think we heard it a

couple times in the service, and Justin said

it, is that very simply envy is wanting what

other people have. Right. Stuff we don't have,

we want what they have, and we're envious of

them and what they have. Yeah. Yeah, one of the

other things that I was reading about this week

and sort of thinking about this was there was

some people saying that like envy when we use

that word we're more focused on like the thing

that we are envious of whereas like jealousy

sometimes we're more talking about like the person

so like i don't know i am envious of bill's phone

for example like i really want the phone it's

a good phone it's a good phone yeah but if i

was saying i was jealous then it's more about

like oh my relationship with bill right then

i don't know does that feel true in the way that

we use those words. So you're still jealous of

the phone. You're still envious of the phone,

but the jealousy is on the person. Oh, yeah,

yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that's a good distinction,

too. That's helpful. I've never thought about

it that way. OK. Does it feel true? I guess so,

if I think about it now. But like for me, jealous

just kind of seems like a thing that you say,

like, oh, I'm so jealous or whatever. Like, it's

just. a normalized kind of word versus envious

is like, oh, that's a sin. That's how it feels

like for me. So like the word like, like saying

you're envious of someone sounds like you're

like plotting on them or something. Like, but

it's like jealous just kind of, you just kind

of throw that word around. Like if you're like

mildly wanting something is how I use it. Or

Tohanna would say, I'm so jelly. I would not

say that. Okay, well maybe some other young people

would. So, where does envy or jealousy sort of

come from? Why does it exist? Maybe a lack kind

of mindset. Like you feel like you're lacking

something so you want. That's how it works in

my head at least, like the gear is working that

way. It's not just lack. Like somebody can lack

food and genuinely be hungry, right? I think

it's that comparative. That sense that somebody

has something and there's a deficiency in you,

right? Like I think there's a sense that... Somebody

having it and you feeling like you should have

it. Yeah, like there's an enmity There's a little

bit of malice there, which is why I think we

make that distinction between envy being worse

than jealousy Right that you did So the difference

between need and want yeah stuff that we need

Yeah, you know for ourselves and for our family

and yes, and then there's things that we want

that are yeah You know, we don't necessarily

need them but we want them and I think that that

that kind of the the level then goes to more

towards you know being envious or being jealous

of others because you know they have those things

that we want and we want them for ourselves yeah

for sure the why for the want is kind of important

too because sometimes you just kind of want something

because it looks appealing and your friend has

it and so you want to have it and you want to

belong to the social group that has Bill's phone.

Bill's phone specifically, yes. But like you're

actually just fine with Kyla's phone and like

you have to examine why you want the thing. We

talked about this last week when we talked about

being built with a hole in our heart. It's a

God -shaped hole. And anything that we try to

fill that, whether it's my phone or anything

that we're envious of that other people might

have, we try to, you know, it comes from, like

you were saying, where does envy come from? It

comes from us desiring to fill that hole in our

hearts to make us complete. And we try to fill

it with all sorts of stuff, but ultimately it's

a God -shaped hole, and only God is going to

serve that purpose of completing us in the way

that he made us. But we try to fill that with

a nice vacation, or the latest model car that

our neighbor has that we want, and we get it.

And we might feel good for a little bit because,

you know, like we were talking, you know, last

week and this week is that, you know, when we

get the stuff that we desire, we tend to desire

the stuff that makes us feel good. So when we

get it, we feel good. Yeah. But it ultimately

doesn't fill that hole. Right. And only God will

fill that hole. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, Johanna,

you talked about, like, you know, wanting things

that your friends have. Yeah. And I think I wonder

if social media then feeds into envy more, because

I get to see more of what my friends have. I

know in my own life, for example now, I've been

out of high school for a number of years, but

still interact with some high school friends

or see them on social media, right? And there's

such a temptation in my life to be like, oh,

they're going on another. international vacation

or like oh they found their partner they're raising

a family and that's just like not where i'm at

in my life right there yeah right so like do

you feel like social media like feeds envy it

definitely can if you let it like i feel like

it's a you control what you see on social media

um so if it's like friends and stuff that you're

following like You can look at the post or you

could just not if you know that you're in a jealous

kind of mood. I don't know. But like, I mean,

there definitely is that pressure though, like

added if you're seeing it repeatedly on their

Instagram that they are like living a really

great life and you're not like, yeah, I would

be jealous. But I mean, I'm more jealous of like

experiences and stuff. But like, I think that's

kind of like a good jealous because it makes

me want to just go and have my own. So. It can

be a motivator sometimes to be jealous, I don't

know. Yeah, I think it can be a motivator. I

don't know what other folks feel like. I agree.

I think that... And here I'm trying to make distinctions

here between admiration or seeing something good

that you might like to experience and envy. And

so much of social media is the flip of envy,

which is boasting, which is based on so often...

you know, recognizing I have something good,

I'm gonna just spread it out. Now that can be

sharing with friends, but social media, there's

a weird sort of difference to sharing it publicly,

rather than like a heartfelt talk with a friend.

You know, that's very different. And so it has

a dynamic that veers into boasting precisely

at the point at which others... are invited to

envy. There's this broad dynamic in certain elements

of social media that it's inherent to the medium,

I think, very often. And so that's where I think

the temptation lies when it comes at social media.

It's people posting very often, very aware of

the sort of boasting about their experiences

or they're under the guise of sharing. for example,

right? Right. Because it's not personal. It's

it's in a way it's and so there's where I found

I've my social media. My movement away from social

media has helped me a lot because as much as

I'd love to hear about your vacation, it's nice

if we actually have a conversation. Yeah. And

whereas if all I'm seeing is your posts from

Bali, you know, it's. It's lovely that you have

that, but there's no sense in which there's a

sharing among friends. And so that's where I

find the medium becomes very inherently in a

space where envy and boasting sort of feed off

each other. It's interesting that we're talking

about these kind of international trips or trips

to the sun destinations, because I find over

the years that I really have to watch my social

media feed in January, February, and March because

I get all these posts of friends that are going

down south to all these really nice tropical

locations and I'm looking at their pictures and

I'm like... Out there shoveling your snow! I'm

trying to get my snowblower to work and then

I'm seeing them on the beach and having fun and

doing stuff and I try to be happy for them, but

I think that's where I... And I think it's all

of us, right? Because that sense of travel and

adventure. And we know it's a good experience.

And I think that's the thing about envy, very

often the things we want. Many of them can be

bad, sure. But many things that we want, if we're

envious, they can be good things that we might

not be. in the space or in the moment that we

can experience and so recognizing that it's good

and at the same time that it's not necessarily

for us where we are right now and being happy

or okay with that like that's the challenge right

and so yeah it's if you're sort of envious of

a family or if you're envious of people's experiences

and all They're not bad things, which is why

it's so easy to envy in those moments. I've never

envied somebody who's ultra rich or a hedge fund

manager. That's not me. I'm not even envious

of you. That's because it's not your heart's

desire. It's not my heart's desire at all. That's

where it comes from. I think the issue is when

you have values where you recognize these are

good things and you might like to have them.

but they're not where you are right now, to be

grateful in that moment for what you have, that

that's the struggle. Oh, I think that's bang

on. So there I think, yeah. Yeah, I think, I

guess just thinking about it then, like if it's

all about our values, Like you said, I can only

be envious of the things that I actually want.

And they're good things, which then makes me

think about what Justin was just saying in his

sermon about this idea of not hedging our bets.

If we're gonna trust God to give us something,

then we need to trust God to give us that thing.

Even if it's something I could get another way,

I guess. So social media sort of gives us this

possibility for envy. Do we think it also, like

are there ways that it can be a sort of antidote

to envy or does it just feed the negative? A

little bit. Okay. But it's like a guilty pleasure

is that I will look at people who have really

bad lives. and then I feel good about mine. I

mean, it's probably not the best motivator, but

it's my little thing that I do. So I think it

is Libby said if the antidote. to envy is gratitude,

then we need to build that into our lives. And

I think it's a discipline. I think it's something

that we need to train ourselves to do over years

and years of repetition. So one of the things

I do with my life group every week, and I don't

think they get annoyed at it, but it definitely

is repetitive. Every week, part of my prayer

request is for us to be grateful for what we

have and mindful of those who have less. And

sometimes I give examples of that. And that might

be after I shared that I'm currently not working

and don't have a lot of money to, you know, beyond

paying the bills to do kind of fun stuff. And

then I say, and then my prayer request is for

us to be grateful and be mindful of those who

have less, right? So it's all kind of relative

from wherever you are, but there's always gonna

be people who have more and there's always gonna

be people who have less. And just one, be grateful,

the antidote to envy, and then to be mindful

of those who are in need around us and to help

out as best we can. And so that as a discipline

is great, but then as an action, you know, I

would... Definitely encourage people to volunteer

in their community, you know to volunteer at

a food bank to volunteer at a shelter to volunteer

at I I'm part of the out of the cold program

in Georgetown and I volunteer once or twice a

week with the overnight program where we provide

a warm hot meal for dinner and then a warm safe

place for people who are unhoused to have a place

to to sleep and That and that's it. You know,

we're 8 p .m. To 8 a .m. And that's what we do

And as you participate in a program like that,

you become very aware of the people in your community

who have less and are in need. And I think that's

super humbling. Wherever you're at with your

life, if you're just building a career or you're

saving money for a house or whatever, you're

at a different place. You know be grateful for

where you are and be and and be aware of and

help out when you can for People that have less.

Yeah Yeah, I think yeah gratitude is definitely

one of those sort of antidotes for envy like

you were saying and and Yeah, the the piece you

were talking about about volunteering just reminds

me like I was just sort of trying to think through

like compassion as another sort of antidote for

envy and just like recognizing There are lots

of people who have things that I want, but there

are also lots of people who want the things that

I have. How can I extend compassion? That can

help. To be happy with where you are, that's

true. There's still, though, a problem with that

kind of comparative sense, I think. Like to feel

glad that you're not that person who's suffering.

It has its own negative seed there, right? And

as much as you'd have compassion, you're like,

oh, I'm glad I'm not that. You can do that compassionately.

But I think the space that is hard, just because

we are such social creatures, we learn from each

other. How do we move away from that comparative

sense of whether it's ending people with more

or being glad that they're not suffering like

people with less. I loved what Justin said about

humbling ourselves. That where we are is where,

if you're humble before God, that's where he

wants you to be. So you're not looking to others

who have less to feel good about yourself either.

Your relationship is first with who God is as

a creator, where His presence is in your life,

where He holds you, right? And so that humility

can feed a gratitude that is not about things.

So much is about your relationship with God as

much as it's possible to do that. I know I speak

an idealistic terms It's harder to do that in

a world where we do need material things to to

basically be happy like you can't be happy if

you're starving and You know, there are genuine.

I agree with Billy You know, there is a sense

in which those who have should be sharing should

be volunteering should be doing these things

But in terms of the just that attitude of comparison,

you know Humbling himself before God, you know

allows you to be to trust him for where you are

Yeah, and I think that can be a kind of antidote

On the comparative party so we we shouldn't be

comparing ourselves to others we need to focus

on God and And the I think the worst I don't

know are there levels to envy I think there are

then I think the worst level of envy is is wanting

what others have and not so for yourself that

you want them and not wanting others to have

it. Yeah. Right. So there that's the comparative

part. That's where really kind of the the and

and but to avoid that is like what Justin Todd

he referred to. Peter walking on the water towards

the boat to Jesus. And he was able to walk on

the water toward Jesus because he was focused

on Jesus. And when he got, when he started to

get concerned about the winds and the waves,

the troubles of life and focused on them, instead

he began to sink into the water. And I think

that is, that's what the comparative part that

you're talking about, right? So as long as we're

focused on Jesus, we can walk on water, which

is incredible. That's a miracle. I mean, I so,

much hope for that for my life, for our lives,

that we could be so focused on Jesus that we

can do the miraculous. But the warning is, if

we turn our face away from Him and focus on other

things, you know, for me it would be a motorcycle

trip. And, you know, that next motorcycle trip,

then I start to sink. And then I get scared.

and, you know, start to panic, right? And just

think even more. So focus on Jesus. So we talked

about envy in the context of, you know, social

media sometimes feeds that. Are there other sort

of things in the world that sort of feed our

drive towards envy? Yeah, I think social media

is only the latest iteration, right? Our consumer

culture is built on envy. Essentially our entire

lifestyle in the West is built on having a nice

house, essentially the rise of consumerism was

based on a sense of keeping up, imagining a particular

lifestyle, which is when you consider the downstream

problems of our consumerism. We don't even recognize

how damaging it is. Before social media, everyone

would talk about commercials, commercials on

television. We're not watching as many commercials

on television anymore. Or throw away culture,

use and discard. The commercial was effective

when it identified an area of lacking in your

life and how that product could fix that. And

whether that lacking was real or not, the commercial's

job was to convince you it was. And then you

go and buy that product and all of a sudden your

life is great now. Yeah and so I think yeah so

media in general is very good at amplifying you

know that kind of yeah what's even like going

outside you can be envious of anyone anything

like I saw a really nice car on a walk with some

friends and I was like, yo, that's a really nice

car. And I want that car, what? But then I had

to think about how much work that person, hopefully,

put into buying that car, I guess, like honest

work, because it was a really expensive car.

But I would hope that they put a lot of work

into saving up for that car or whatever. Then

I just thought of that, and it made me less envious

because it's not just the beauty of the shiny

thing, but it's also like, oh, it took like blood,

sweat, and tears probably to get to that really

nice car. So just thinking about the process

of getting things makes me want them less, I

guess, which is good for envy rather than not

having it. It is, yeah. Karana, there was something

you said last week that stuck with me. I think

it fits in our conversation here and that's You

said that a teacher a professor had told you

to check yourself on the little things Yes, because

if you let yourself go on the little things,

you know telling a lie or then telling when telling

a lie becomes normal then cheating on a test

because you know you get that becomes normal

and then it just progresses. And so I think that

for envy, like your example of the car, right?

If you're envious of the car and you don't check

yourself, then you might begin to do things so

that you could get that car for yourself, which

might include... lying and cheating or maybe

even stealing that car. Not me. Someone might

do that. But that's the thing. If you're not

careful, you don't guard your heart on those

first steps, then it becomes easier. to take

the next step and then the next step and then

you find yourself driving down the street of

a stolen vehicle that you've always wanted and

that's not a good thing. Then it gets repossessed

and you're in jail. Yeah, I think so often...

What you were just sharing, Johanna, makes me

think about what we are envious of is always

the end result. I'm never envious of someone's

process to getting the end result. It's like

you said, you're not envious of the big bankers

of the world and stock traders and stuff because

that's a lot of work. Am I envious of their big

condo and their fancy car? Maybe, but I'm not

envious of the work that got them there. Sounds

boring to me. Yeah, it does. I'm also curious,

Johanna, I know you've lived in lots of different

places around the world. I'm wondering, does

envy look or feel different in different places?

Because we've been talking about it as this big

Western consumerist sort of thing, right? Or

is it a global sort of phenomenon in your experience?

I would say so. I think it's just kind of human

nature. all since pretty much, unfortunately.

So, I mean, it might present slightly differently

and like maybe in a different language or something

or a different expression is used for it. But

like, it's still the same thing at its core is

just wanting what someone else has. I think that's

pretty universal unless you're like part of like

an elite group of people that just does not covet

anything because you're so great. That's cool

for you, but I think most people are envious

at least a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And when you're

talking about this elite group of people, I think,

well, they're ultra wealthy, right? They're not

envious, right? But they probably are. They are.

They're not thinking ultra wealthy at all. I'm

thinking somebody who, I don't know, I think

Mother Teresa when I think somebody not envious.

I think someone who's chosen the downward path,

knowing that the world cannot. answered the real

desires of her heart and her desire was Jesus

and helping the poor, right? Then like all the

wealth just bounces off her, all this showing

of wealth, like very few people are like that.

You can say Jesus was like that, you know, I

mean, or she was like him, but you know, that

sense in which you... are able to see through

what the world pretends to promise, right? It's

huge. And that's what Jesus constantly saying,

like, don't lose your soul. What does it matter

if you gain the world and lose your soul, right?

I mean, that's a kind of warning that can guard

against envy and so much, because it gives the

lie to the sense that none of these things will

satisfy or provide. So, yeah. There are very

few people, I think, who don't want and I think

it's not even riches. I think it's the ways in

which we are we are promised fulfillment in this

world, right? We're talking about things, but

it's not necessarily things that I envy very

often. It's somebody who is successful in their

career. It is somebody who is fulfilled in certain

ways. It is, you know, And so the world is promising

us that all these things, sexuality, I don't

know, sex, careers, like these are fulfilling.

These are ultimately fulfilling. And the thing

is that at some level they are fulfilling as

material beings on this planet. It's just that

they are not ultimately fulfilling. And so I

love that. I think it's that it's an old definition

of idolatry which you know, talks about idolatry,

not as necessarily terrible, but as just mistaking

the created thing for the creator, right? And

so they're good things created for us, but they

are not the creator. And so to be envious about

these things that do in fact provide some meaning,

some fulfillment, family, you know, career, happiness,

that sort of thing. Those are the places where

I think it's very, very easy to slip into envy

and not even recognize it. So that's where I

really think eyes on Jesus, right? And trust

for your life emerging from your relationship

with Him and trusting Him for where you are.

Because those, yeah, I'm going to stop there.

Yeah, no, just as you were thinking there, I

was doing a little bit of self -reflection, but

also then thinking about like, um, like self

-pity, right? That like, sometimes envy leads

into self -pity or self -pity leads into envy.

It's this like cycle of, especially like the

example that immediately comes to mind for me

is like looking at other people who like, Have

a partner have their life. They're starting their

family there They're doing all of those like

really good things and those are they're good

things Yeah, right, but like I then I look at

myself and I'm like, I don't have that. Yeah

and it can feed this cycle of yes of pity and

envy but Yeah, I was gonna sorry. I'm speaking

a lot I was gonna say I was reading up a little

bit of an envy and the older version of envy

talks about wanting what other people have. But

it actually talks about the sadness of not having

it. There's this affective, this melancholy sense

of deprivation. It's not admiration. Envy is

not just admiration. Admiration is self -giving.

You can admire something and feel like, okay,

this is beautiful. feel envious, but when it

actually makes you feel sad about what you don't

have. That's, that's that sort of element. What

you're talking about is that absence of what

we need to be complete. Right? Exactly. So we've

circled around this a couple of times where we're

just saying, you know, we are, we're built. by

God to be in relationship, to be in community,

to believe and to have a sense of belonging.

And so we crave those things that we think will

complete us. And the absence of those things

does make us sad and does make us, you know...

desire to have those things to be complete. It's

just that, as Justin talked about, our faulty

moral compass points us in the wrong direction

to what we think we need to be complete and to

have our heart full. as God has designed us to.

And so we pick the wrong things. But that motivation,

that desire is built in, is hardwired into the

creation of us. And God did that, right? But

God did that to point us to Him. But we take

that and we point it to a really nice motorcycle.

We substitute a lot of things. Because you pick

the things that you desire. And in the hopes

that that will make us complete. Or less sad.

And for a time we are happy. But ultimately we

need to recognize that that's not the thing that's

gonna... And that's gonna make it so, you know,

we're gonna check ourselves We've got a you know,

get our compass pointed in the right direction

and keep our focus on on Jesus as much as we

can Yeah, so we've been talking about, you know

this idea checking ourselves gratitude keeping

our eyes on Jesus We've been talking about them

sort of conceptually. So I want us to end with

some like really practical like what does that

look like so as corny as it sounds like When

I think about gratitude, I think about like a

gratitude journal and literally just writing

down every day. This is a good thing that happened

today. This is what I'm grateful for. And the

times where I've done that in my life, it's been

surprisingly helpful because it feels really

basic and corny, like I said, but it actually

is super helpful, I think. Are there other sort

of practical things? No, I think gratitude's

huge because I'm very tempted by, you know, especially

when close people, friends who just have more,

right? And there was a point at which I was praying

with the kids, and we always act, right? It helps

the kids to adoration, confession, thanksgiving.

And the thanksgiving part, we were like, thank

you, let's talk about thank you. And just even

praying with them helped. And there was once

we were talking about thank you for all that

you've given us. And my son said, and thank you

for you gave us more than we need right like

thank you for giving us all we need and he gave

us more than we need and so now our prayers thank

you for giving us more than we need and that

has helped a lot for our family at least for

me yeah it's like my goodness what am i you know

what am i upset about or what am i feeling here

i have more than i need and so for now that that

has been Very helpful. Yeah, I think it's kind

of been like waiting because I don't know I feel

like when I get envious I can feel a bit impulsive.

Yep. So it's like, okay, I want that thing. I

have money I'm going to buy it now and that's

like really bad financially So just like waiting.

Yeah to realize like oh, I actually don't need

this or I already have something similar at home

already or whatever then like you just The feeling

kind of fades. It's like one of those things

where like the first bit of envy is like so strong

It's like I need it. I'm deprived and then you

wait it out It's like I actually lived like a

while before the thing even appeared in my head

and I can keep doing that I didn't do that for

like the rings that I'm wearing because I saw

someone wearing them on Instagram and then I

went to the Amazon storefront because they were

really cute and cool and I liked them. And then

I bought them for myself that same exact minute,

which is really bad. I should have thought about

it before. I mean, I don't regret it, but they're

nice rings. Thank you. Yeah. Green tree frog

ring. It's very nice. And you have matching earrings

too. Yeah, they're turtles though, but they're

not frogs. I'm envious of your earrings. I might

go to Amazon and order me one. You can't separate

the friends though. They're a duo. But yeah,

like just waiting. is probably a good practice

if you're someone who's impulsive when they're

envious like me. For me, I would talk about developing

a habit of gratitude. So for me, I talk about

discipline, like developing a discipline and

training yourself. And so for me, I need to build

that into my life as a regular reminder. So if

it's something that's important to me, I need

to, and that's, you know, I pray on my own about

just being grateful for what I have in my life,

for my family, my wife, my daughters. and that

kind of thing, but also in my life group on a

weekly basis, just kind of doing that as a group

together, just to be grateful for what we have

and to be aware of or mindful of those who don't

and to, when we can, do something to help. So

one is the habit of gratitude and taking opportunities

to be thankful. And then I would say that the

second thing is, I've already mentioned earlier,

but it would be to volunteer in the community

and to really, I mean, that is a practice of

humbling yourself to serve others. And it's in

that. that we see the need that other people

have for food, for housing, for education, for

mental health, and how we can help. I think that's

also a part of checking that need or that envy

that we see in the lives of other people that

have what we don't have that we want is to spend

time with people who have less and help them.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and if I could just add

one thing more to the gratitude and waiting,

it's also the trust. The trust that God has you

in His hands now where you are, right? Because

there are people who might not have a lot, who

are in fact struggling and, you know, and so

as they pray for sustenance, as they pray for

help, right, to trust that even in the hard times

that God's got you in His hand. And that can

help a lot. So I think that sense of cultivating

that trust is deeply important to sort of guard

against envy. Well, thank you so much, folks.

This has been a really rich... conversation.

A lot of stuff to unpack, for sure. But I think

we've ended up somewhere a little bit hopeful,

which feels good. Yeah, so thank you for this

conversation. And thank you for tuning in and

listening with us. I hope that you have also

been able to find some nuggets of wisdom and

hope to move forward through this Lenten journey.

And we will see you again next week.