Lust, Purity, Shame | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.

My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And we are

continuing our podcast series where we're reflecting

on the sermons or the teaching that just took

place during our service. And today's topic is

a little bit awkward. But also I think something

that's really important and something that actually

one of our viewers requested that we talk about

this topic even before they knew about the sermon

series. So that I think shows that this is something

that's important that people are thinking about

and want to talk about. And that is lust. So

before we dive into what lust is and sort of

what that looks like, as I said, it's really

awkward. It's hard to talk about. Why? What do

we think makes this so hard for us to talk about?

Bill? Well, I'm not sure what you mean because

of all the seven deadly sins, I think this is

the one that I relate to the least. So I really

don't know what the big deal is or what we're

talking about here. This is not an issue for

me at all. I hope you got the sarcasm in my voice.

The denial. If you don't laugh, you're going

to cry. I know. Johanna, what do you think makes

this so hard to talk about? Probably just our

attitude towards it in general as a society.

You're either very for it and very brazen, just

go out and hook up every day of the week. Or

you're very prudish about it, almost, is what

it feels like. So then with everyone in the middle

ground of like... I don't know. It's just whatever.

Then they feel uncomfortable because there's

those extremist sides, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It

feels like we have to like be on one side or

the other side, but actually most of us are in

the middle and just don't know what to say. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'd also say, you know, I mean,

on the one hand, I completely agree with Joanna

here. I think that there are so many different

ways of thinking about it, and some of them are

very fraught, right? And so you tend to avoid

a conversation. But on a more healthy scale,

too, I also think that sexuality, right, is very

intimate. very personal, chances of you just

speaking openly about it with somebody who isn't

a long -standing friend or a close family member

are slim. So even in that just the ordinary sense

in which sexuality is very personal and private,

like you tend to just avoid the conversation.

Sure. Yeah. And that is, in a sense, somewhat

natural as well. Sure. Yeah. I think we just

don't talk about sex. Right. Even the healthy

and appropriate. sexual part of who we are as

humans. It's just awkward just to talk about

it even in a positive way. It's also kind of

gross when you think about it. Like, it's kind

of gross to talk about. I mean, you don't have

to talk about the weird details, I guess. But

like, yeah. And that sort of points to how intimate

it is, right? And how private it is. And so then

maybe others don't want to hear about that level

of intimacy with you. And so that ends up being

a place where we are silent. We give up the opportunities

to speak in healthy ways. I think that comes

with the danger of not sometimes addressing it.

Then it just feels like it's always related to

some amount of shame or, you know. And that's

not the case in so many ways. It doesn't have

to be. It doesn't have to be. Yes, you're right.

It doesn't have to be. Yeah, for sure. It's hard

to talk about, but I think for the purpose of

this conversation, it would be helpful for us

to define lust so that we know what it is that

we're talking about. So one definition that I

read that actually aligns closely with what Rob

was saying in the sermon was that lust is treating

people as objects for our own pleasure. So we're

sort of denying the humanity of another person

and they're just becoming a thing. that gives

us some sort of pleasure. And that pleasure might

happen just in our mind, or it might happen sort

of through physical actions. And just to unpack

that a little bit, which also came out in Rob's

sermon, was the sense that on the one hand, you

reduce the full humanity of the other person,

right? But by also... only thinking about your

own pleasure you reduce the full humanity of

yourself in relationship like sexuality or sex

is inherently relational right like you can it's

not just like another appetite you can eat a

meal alone yeah right you can't have you necessarily

sex although like it's inherently relational

i think i think i think you have to simulate

something else what i mean if you're gonna do

anyway let's let's let's move away from the awkwardness

but what i'm saying is that well what i am saying

is that that inherent relationality is the way

at least by the bible talks about you know people

in relationship and so um to only reduce it to

the set your own sensation is also not bringing

your whole self into relationship and that can

be why I think you can objectify others, you

can reduce yourself, the humanity of the other

person is reduced, the humanity of yourself is

reduced, and all of that seems to take place

when we're talking about lust. Yeah, thanks to

her for saying that, because I think a very similar

kind of idea around that. For me, personally,

I know when I'm in a state of lust, right? I

mean, I just have a sense of that. I might not

be able to define it, you know, but I just kind

of know when it's happening. And I think, but

it's really helpful to be able to. kind of spend

some time thinking about it and, um, and just

kind of knowing yourself more around that. And

I think when I did, when I have thought about

it, um, it's for me, it's really about relationship

and you, that's exactly what you talked about

was relationship and lust. damages and erodes

relationship. Your relation to yourself, right?

I mean, you become disassociated with yourself

when lust takes a priority over your life. It's

no longer healthy sexuality, and it's a preoccupying

desire that's inappropriate, illicit, and it

destroys self. And I think also it destroys your

relationships with other people, right? It destroys

your relationships with other people that you're

engaged in lust. with, and ultimately it destroys

your ability to be in relationship with everyone

else, right? Because that sense of everyone is

an object of your own desire. You can't care

and love for someone who is an object. And so

that's, for me, it's a lot about relationship.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we are talking about

lust primarily in terms of sexual desire, but

I think it's fair to sort of point out that in

our culture, in our vocabulary, we also talk

about lust for other things sometimes, right?

So we'll talk about lust for power. That's the

first one that comes to mind. Are there other

things that come to mind for folks when we think

of lust? I mean, that is the one that really

first comes to mind because, you know, it's that

intensity of desire for something quite powerful.

Right. And so, you know, and so, yeah, that is

the first one. You can use lust in a different

way. Lust for pleasure is another one. Sure.

Lust for... any number of things. But I mean,

most of the time when you think about lust or

when people are talking about lust, it's the

sexual nature. And, and Rob said in the sermon

today that yes, there are other things you can

lust for lust after, but when it comes to the

seven deadly sins, sorry, folks, we're talking

about sex. Yes. Okay. So is there something about

our current sort of North American Western culture

that makes. lust or sexuality more of a thing

than it has been in other times and at other

moments. It just seems to be really in your face,

I guess. I don't know. It's pretty normalized,

I feel like. Even the way that people talk to

each other, just the way you can compliment someone,

I guess. You can call them beautiful or intelligent

or anything actually nice. Or you can say that

Their ass is nice. You can say that? Yeah, yeah.

And I feel like that's kind of what... I'm not

going to say that. I feel like that's kind of

how people compliment sometimes is probably like

that. Or just in conversation with other people.

Just derogatory language, I guess. It's just

normalized. It's just how people talk amongst

each other for some certain settings. Yes. Maybe

in your generation more than Bill's. Maybe. Maybe

I used to be able to say that. It is normalized,

for sure. But I think we're also in a very hyper

-sexualized culture where not only is it normal,

but it is just in your face. All the time. And

I mean, I can't open, you know, Facebook or social

media and stuff without having to scroll past,

you know. you know, what is potentially kind

of inappropriate, uh, you know, videos or, or

whatever, you know, these TikTok things or, and,

uh, and it's, uh, but even, even not even beyond

social media, just in our, in our, in our, in

advertising. And it just seemed like sex sells,

right? I mean, that's, it's not, that's like

advertising one -on -one the, uh, the, uh, and

so it's always, it's always being used to say,

you know, that, um, you know, this, this is the

way to go. This is the better life, you know?

And it's accepted and normalized and it erodes

a lot of the healthy attitudes or healthy character

that we need to have as a society. It's constantly,

like I'm even thinking of Met Gala, you know,

costumes sometimes, right? Like it's just everywhere.

And it's also sort of reframed as body positivity

very often. And on the one hand, The whole notion

of body positivity is meant to move away from

that language of shame. Right. But on the other

hand, it is putting itself up completely as sexual

in isolation of relationship. Right. And so you've

got, you know, I'm proud of my body and I will

flaunt it sexually. Right. You know, and that's

different from I'm happy or grateful or proud

or, you know, all of the healthy ways you can

say I've received my body. It's God's gift. And

there are so many ways to think about our bodies

in a way that centers our dignity without necessarily

thinking I have to flaunt sexuality. And I think

our culture sort of slips down that way, that

route, really easily. So, yeah, it's everywhere.

It's in every television show, every movie. I

mean, one sociologist called it the pornification

of popular culture. Right. Right. Like it's just

out there all the time. It's actually hard to

to have healthy visions when it's just always

in your face. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like what.

And I struggle with the most, maybe not the most,

but one of the things that I struggle with is

the way that like sex and sexuality is sort of

positioned as like the ultimate good. Right.

As like, if you just like have the right partner

and they look the right way and you engage in

the right acts, you will be the happiest that

you could ever be in your life. Right. And that's

just like not. True. Nope. And not helpful. No,

it's not helpful. And the flip side of that is

if you don't have that, all of that, you are

incomplete, lacking, you know, and if you as

a Christian go down that route, you have no way

to contemplate Jesus and the disciples, right?

Like, you know, you'd literally have to say without

a happy family life, Jesus was lacking something

or the disciples were lacking something. And

so there is a, you know, I think, so it gets

very difficult in this culture which posits sex

as ultimate fulfillment, as a space of your fulfillment

to actually have a healthy sense of wholeness

outside of, you know, without necessarily going

down that route. I agree. I think we're created

to be sexual beings and there's a very healthy...

sense of sexuality that is part of who we are

and makes up who we are. But I don't think that

necessarily means that we have to have sex. No.

Right. Or that, you know, that there's, so I,

it'd be interesting to kind of, uh, think more

about, uh, what it, what it means to be a healthy

sexual human being. Um, and, um, and you know,

what that would look like in different situations.

Cause it doesn't mean, you know, you're not lacking

if you're not actually doing the act. I mean,

you are still a sexual being and you can be healthy

in your life one way or the other, I think. Absolutely.

So in order to combat this problem of lust, I

mean, Christian culture for a long time has recognized

that this is a problem. And so they've kind of

swung in the other direction to emphasize sexual

purity. And in some cases, I think that is potentially

helpful. You know, it encourages people to behave

in particular ways that we might think of as

more desirable, you know, waiting until marriage

to have sex. But I think it also creates a number

of other problems. Yeah. So just in your own

experiences and in sort of ways that you've thought

about this, how does this problem of emphasizing

sexual purity, like what challenges does that

create? Oh. So I think part of the problem with

the purity culture element of that Christian

ethos is that it's reductive, right? First of

all, it thinks about... sexual abstinence as

pure and with the implication without ever actually

saying it out that maybe once you have sex there's

the issue of purity disappears somehow less pure

you know less pure somehow it's just odd when

you think about the positive nature of sex within

the the fact that god created it right and so

that notion that you're pure by some kind of

behavior right as opposed to and then somehow

the issue goes away and just once you're married

is is an odd dichotomy. It feels so strange.

The language of purity in the Bible, I think,

has been sort of misused in that case. Like,

God makes us pure because He washes away all

our sins. It's not just in the area of sexuality,

right? This means that it's an ongoing... you

know, turning to Jesus, receiving his grace and

forgiveness, being washed, you know, having your

sins washed away. Those are things that happen

throughout your life, within your marriage, outside

your marriage, every area. And so, you know,

to actually say that the word pure only applies

to this kind of sex, you know, area of sexuality

is just very reductive. And it's not helpful.

It's not helpful for people to recognize. that

battles with lust, battles with unhealthy relationships

are going to be ongoing, whether you're married,

when you are married, right? And so it's really

reductive about the possibilities of healthy,

ongoing relationships and can leave people really

confused. Then when, you know, if the whole ethos

is... You're pure and wonderful if you abstain

before marriage. And then anything goes in marriage.

And then marriage doesn't work out that way.

It's really confusing. Yeah, yeah. And then forget

about after marriage. Like post -marriage. Right.

If a marriage breaks up. Anything goes. Anything

goes. Right. So you're talking about like if

a marriage breaks up, right? Yeah, that's right.

What happens? I was good. I was a good boy before

I got married. And I was a good boy during my

marriage. And unfortunately, my marriage broke

up. But now post -marriage. Yeah, the issue of

purity is gone. Exactly. I can do whatever I

want. And I'm like, what? There's no question

of purity anymore after that because it's being

only linked to abstinence, which is not at all

sort of, you know, that wholesome view of sin

and redemption that is emerging. I think part

of the problem with purity culture is that it's

trying to deal with just one problem, one issue.

And it elevates that one issue. Yes, in absence

or not considering anything else. And so, I mean,

it is trying to respond to a real pain that comes

out of, you know, when people get kind of sucked

into lust or they're doing things that they shouldn't

do. It does damage us. It does hurt us and hurt

others. And so they want to deal with that. But

it's the pendulum swing in the other direction,

you know, that in itself. causes pain and and

uh dissociates people from their faith and and

uh and is maybe even the this the the reason

that uh they feel shame or that shame just kind

of sticks to them for so long and they just like

oh well i was supposed to be poor But because

I wasn't pure, then now I can't go to church

now. I can't hang out with my friends anymore

because they're pure and I'm not. And then what's,

you know, with the purity thing, why is it just...

You know, sex. There's so many other things that

we, I mean, we're talking about six other deadly

sins. And there's other things beyond that, right,

that just cause us to be impure. It's not just

sex. Right. So what about all those things? And

so what's the answer? Yeah. And Johanna, you

were telling me before, you know, that it creates

some differences between like the way that we

treat. women and the way that we treat men and

yeah so i wonder if you can reflect on that a

little bit more um i mean i guess purity culture

like it's kind of enforced unequally um because

women are encouraged to you know be chaste and

modest for the most part and men from what i've

observed not as much if at all it's more of like

you know go get him tiger i don't know what you

say to your bro before they go out and like get

some I don't know why are you looking at me oh

my gosh but yeah like it's kind of like that's

what I say to all my bros before they go out

yeah well like it's unfair how it's like um like

it's not proportional at all and so you encourage

the women to be chased and you encourage the

men to chase and it just kind of like leads to

an unhealthy kind of culture of like i think

the word you used was rape culture yeah right

it creates this dynamic where yeah consensual

sex is hard to have because women always have

to say no and men always have to say yes yeah

because it's presumed that men are inherently

more sexual right yeah which yeah yeah it creates

this like Yeah, power imbalance. Yeah, and I

just don't think that's fair, I guess. Yeah,

for sure. It's not fair. But can you say that

phrase again? Because I love it. I don't like

it, but I love it. I'm being chased. uh you encourage

women to be chased chased yeah and then you encourage

men to chase to chase oh my gosh i that's that's

a great turn of phrase that just kind of nails

that whole situation so thank you thank you for

that yeah so we've talked about all of these

problems all of these less than helpful ways

to talk about sexuality and lust so what are

some helpful ways? What's a way forward to talk

about this? Because we do need to talk about

it. Yeah. So how do we do that? Well, yeah, I

think you need to speak about sexuality as good

in that long committed relationship, right? Part

of the issue with purity culture is how much

it just pretended the relationship itself was

not the problem. It was sex that was the issue

alone. But, you know, to have a positive, like

there is a good reason to wait until marriage.

Right. For sex. And that reason has to do with

the fact that biblically, the coming together

of two people sexually creates a union that is

meant to be permanent. Right. And the other thing.

So that's one element of it. And the other element

of it is that it is God who created marriage.

And so he is part of this story of you and someone

out of two people coming together. Right. And

so when. So as you think about his creation of

sex, his creation of marriage, his creation of

bringing two people together. Right. You're not

just two people doing it on just a purely human

plane. Right. God's involved there. And so marriage

begins to be something that, you know, it integrates

all of it. And which is why sex should occur

within that context. Right. Right. Yeah. So there

are really good reasons for. articulating that

sex within marriage right the whole person coming

into relationship with another whole person in

relation to what God has created right yeah and

I like that so the distinction you're sort of

making there because in some ways you know talking

about sex inside of marriage does seem to mirror

purity culture. It does. But what you're sort

of saying is like, it's actually in this context

of whole life. Yes. Right? It's not just in this

context of sex inside of marriage because it's

safer and it's meeting these certain rules. It's

no sex inside of marriage because... It's in

the context of like committed relationship. It's

in the context of... Loving, faithful, sacrificial.

Right. And you're making the point that not all

marriages are committed relationships. Sure.

Right. So the important thing is the committed

relationship. And in the context of marriage,

when that is a committed relationship, that all

works. Right. A healthy, committed relationship

where you're doing all of life together. So you

can't just say marriage. Sure. Right. Because

that's not a good experience for a lot of people.

Right. It hasn't turned out well for a lot of

people. So it's not a good. idea or you know

a good example sure but what we're trying to

say is that marriage in a committed healthy relationship

where two people love each other and care for

each other and they're committed to one another

right yeah and it's something you grow into even

within marriage right with sex being very much

that sort of coming together intentionally so

you know So it doesn't pretend like everything's

going to be fine just because you said some words

at an altar. It's that that is the ideal that

we need very much God to be holding us as we

go forward. And sex is part of that story, right?

Hence, so I think the church really needs to

articulate that healthy vision for us to make

sense of why. maybe sex outside of marriage isn't

great, why hookup culture isn't great, why porn

isn't great, right? You have to create that beautiful

God -created vision. Then you can recognize easier

where the distortions lie. But if you're not

going to articulate it, it just feels like a

whole lot of nonsensical rules and very constraining

and limited, right? And so that would be perhaps

a place to start. Yeah. What's the goodness here?

So I would say we need to start even before that,

because if you are lucky, blessed enough to have

a partner where you can figure that stuff out

with, that's great. But what about as a single

person or a young person before marriage or a

single person who goes through life unmarried?

Yeah. Like what is what is a healthy sexual?

understanding of yourself. I think that's really

important and maybe even necessary in order to

find that other person who you can then partner

with and share that intimacy with and a committed

relationship, right? But I think lust, we can

overcome lust, single or married, by first looking

at ourselves, right? We need a holistic, healthy

sense of sexualities for ourself and a basic

respect and regard for everyone else. I think

both those things are really important. We need

to understand ourselves and we need to care and

respect other people. So we need to look inside

and develop that character, you know, a discipline

of... It's like what Rob said in the sermon is

ahead of time, figure out what... what sex means

to you, figure out what, you know, what that,

what that relationship is. And the, so that.

when something happens, you know, you, you, uh,

uh, you already know where you stand, right?

What you believe, uh, that is so, uh, that is

so important. That's so crucial because in the,

you know, and, and Rob said in, in the back of

a, of a, a backseat of a steamy vehicle, you

know, maybe you're not, that's not the place

to be thinking your, your theology of sex is,

uh, and the, um, and, uh, and then the, uh, so

yeah, we need to look inside. And then I think,

uh, I think also we need to, We need to look

outside and just understand the culture that

we're in and how it affects us. Right. And and

just and that's part of what I've said about

respecting other people, because I think when

you. And why a relationship is so important.

Because if you care for other people, if you

know other people, if you're in a relationship

with other people, it's really hard to then begin

to think of them as an object. Right? And so

one of the things that I say to guys is... Is

get to be in relationship with people, get to

know people like that. And that whether we're

talking about, you know, sexual objects or not,

that, you know, getting to know is is a way to

humanize. people. Right. I mean, you've seen,

you've seen in the movies a little off topic,

but you've seen in the movies where, you know,

someone has a gun to the head of a main character

or some other character. And then that person

says, well, you know, my name's John and I, you

know, and I, and I have, you know, I have kids

and I have, what are they trying to do? They're

establishing a relationship with that person,

building a rapport, building a connection so

that the person is less likely to kill, shoot

and kill them. Right. And so similarly, you know,

in, in this sexual context of lust, right. When,

when we, uh, when, when we get to know the person,

we're less likely to, to feel lust or, uh, towards

that person. And I mean, I'm not saying it won't

happen. It can't happen, but I just, that, that,

that relationship developing of that relationship

rapport and the respect, um, from person to person

that that develops makes it less likely. To then

pull the trigger, right? And feel lust or act

lustily, you know, towards that person. Yeah.

So the last thing I would just say there is like,

we talk about... lust and sexual sin as if they're

like the worst of all the sins. I think you sort

of alluded to this earlier. And so I would just

say we need to emphasize grace. We need to recognize

that lust, that sexual sin is not an unforgivable

sin, right? It's something that falls within

that context of grace. In the last couple minutes,

I want us to just think about, okay, so that's

a sort of general framework. What are some really

practical things that we can do if we find ourselves

struggling with lust or even just living? this

culture of hypersexualization. So we've been

doing this fasting course here. And that's been,

fasting is a practice that happens throughout

Lent, you know, giving up food or giving up other

things as a way of sort of focusing our hearts

on God. But John Mark Comer, who leads this series,

one of the things that he says is that whenever

he's sort of counseling someone who is struggling

with sexual sin, he will encourage them to fast

from food. Wow. Okay. As a way of training your

body and your mind to say, I don't need to give

into every bodily desire and pleasure. Wow. Right.

That he makes that, that connection. So I thought

that was really interesting. Yeah. I saw that

Rob also made the connection between lust and

like disordered eating. And it made me think

of like, I guess a solution, which would be like.

okay so you know how some people will go on a

diet and they'll think of like chocolate and

pizza and candy yeah while they're on the diet

yeah yeah and then they'll think of like kale

smoothies is good and so that's like prescribing

like morality onto food it's just food versus

like I think you could also say that for um sex

is that like it's just it's not it doesn't make

you a bad person or a good person to engage in

sex and I feel like if we could think of that,

then it would make people feel more comfortable.

Right. It's all about the context, right? Cake

is good sometimes. If you have cake all day,

every day, maybe that's a problem. Yeah. That's

a problem? Yeah. Okay. Other practical practices.

I wanted to suggest that, and I've done this

in the past for myself, and is an accountability

partner. Yeah. It's just making a commitment

with one other, well, in my case, it was another

guy. I would just suggest that guy, guy, and

female. girl, girl, guy, something is more appropriate

for this particular kind of accountability partnership.

Uh, but the, um, uh, so, you know, I've over

the years, I've had various friends who I've

committed to, to, uh, kind of keep each other

accountable, uh, to, to this kind of thing. And,

um, I just, if I can just end with a verse, cause

I think there's, there's a verse that, uh, that

really kind of, um, uh, it speaks to this and

it's Romans 12 too. And it says, Do not conform

to the pattern of this world, but be transformed

by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be

able to test and approve what God's will is,

his good. pleasing and perfect will and I think

that in terms of practical ways to respond to

this and it's the warning is don't conform to

the pattern of this world don't get sucked into

the hyper sexualized culture right but instead

transform your heart and your mind according

to the will of God and just and that that and

then that becomes what your desire and your will

is you your your own desires come into closer

alignment with what God wants for us, for ourselves

and for others and the world. And I think if

we can start to practice this, then I think we've

got it. Yeah. Well, thank you, Bill, so much

for that. And thank you for listening to us this

week on Trinity Talks. I hope that you found

some helpful tidbits and things to take away.

And we'd love to hear from you as well. We'll

see you again next week.