Raging Mad: Anger that Hurts and Heals

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.

And my name is still Bill. And I'm Johanna. And

we are here to continue unpacking our sermon

series together. Today we're specifically talking

about a sin called wrath. Now when you hear the

word wrath, Bill, what's the first thing that

comes to mind? Well, the first thing that comes

to mind is my experience of Wrath as a kid and

that was watching the Star Trek movie Wrath of

Khan. Right, okay. The character Khan was very,

very angry. Yes. And he was just all about revenge

and wanting to pay back ten times. all the people

that he felt did him wrong. Okay, ten times specifically.

Wow, I mean, it's just a lot. It was very overkill.

And I think, kind of reflecting on it afterwards,

that was a pretty good depiction as a character

of Roth. It really was the Roth of Khan. Okay.

I think though, outside of maybe Roth of Khan...

And maybe sometimes in church, we talk about

like the wrath of God. But in general, wrath

is not a commonly used word, I don't think. So

maybe let's start there. What are some other

words that maybe are similar to wrath that people

use more commonly? Angry. Angry. Okay. Rage.

Rage. Yep. Infuriating. Infuriating, yes. Other

things. Like, contempt is kind of similar to

wrath. Resentment. Resentment is kind of similar

to wrath. Distain. Distain, yes. See, we're just

like a living thesaurus here. That's great. So,

okay, so there's all of these words, but how

are they different than wrath? Maybe let's start

with anger, because that's probably the most

common. What are some similarities between anger

and wrath, and maybe what are some differences?

I'd say anger is the umbrella term. Okay. You

know. I mean, and then the others speak to different

intensities or durations or kinds of anger. Resentment's

a much more simmering internal anger towards

somebody that doesn't necessarily get expressed,

whereas rage just feels excessive, very expressed,

right? Violence. And so, yeah, anger feels like,

you know, when we think about anger management,

we are talking about like something broader,

right? So, yeah. That would be my answer. They're

all aggressive, I guess. They're all rooted in

some form of aggression. It's about how you then...

express that aggression, right? That sort of

gives us some of those nuances. Yeah. Yeah. I'd

differentiate between anger and wrath. I think

a wrath and just to say that, you know, anger,

when we're talking about it as a seven deadly

sin, it is... Anger is not the sin is wrath is

the sin, right? So so and and we read in scripture

and we heard today from Rob that that you can

be angry and not sin So so and then but when

it's when you're talking about Roth in the Bible

It's it is talking about, you know going past

that feeling of anger and to into an inappropriate

action, right? And I think it's more similar.

I think rage and Roth is more similar. I think

Roth is not a word that's is commonly used in

our in our culture, but I think everyone understands

rage and that it's like you can be angry and

it is an emotion, you know, and it could be aggressive

emotion. But when you think about rage, it's

definitely that right. It's aggressive and it's

hurtful and it's and it's and it's out to get

you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's like that

anger, which is yeah, I'm like. Unhappy about

something I like something is wrong in the world

and then rage or wrath is like I'm gonna like

hurt somebody Right, right because of this emotion

or this experience that I'm having. Yeah So you

already just alluded to build we can be angry

and not sin So how does that work? When is anger

sin and when does anger become? wrath or sinful

Any thoughts on that? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I'd like

to refer to the sermon today. Sure. I actually

thought that Pastor Rob's notion that sinful

wrath is very often too hot. So explosive, impetuous,

unthoughtful, uncontrolled in the moment. Lasts

too long. That's your resentment, that sort of

planning vengeance. That's, you know, that sense

of holding on to grudges. or misguided. It's

not directed at an appropriate thing. Somebody

cuts you off on the road and you just, you know,

and you respond. And it's not an injustice that

you're angry at. It's a kind of hurt ego or it's

some sense of something. It's a minor inconvenience.

Right. And you end up exploding in anger against

them. And so you've got. the things that, the

ways you can be angry, as well as what you're

angry at, and in both ways it's possible to sin.

Right. Yeah, I'm thinking for Roth, the... in

the Bible, the wrath is often reserved for God,

right? For us, it's talked about as a sin, but

when you read about wrath in the Bible, the wrath

of God, or the God's wrath is upon us, or the

day of wrath is often referred to as the final

judgment in the end times. So I think it's okay.

We'll let Him have it. Let God have the wrath.

I think He can do it right. And I think we get

it wrong a lot of the times. And it even cautions

us in one of the scriptures that... was in Rob's

sermon today, was from Romans 12 .9. It says,

do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave

room for God's wrath, for it is written, it is

mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord.

And so, yeah, we can be angry and we can respond

in our anger, but I think when it comes to wrath,

I think we leave it for God. Right, right. Yeah,

so then that takes us back to asking, okay, like

where... Where is the line? Right? Like and and

so I think you started to answer that right to

say like if it's burning too hot Burning too

long and directed at the wrong thing So I think

that gives us sort of three helpful guidelines,

but I think it's still it's hard to know Sometimes

right like what I also sorry if I could add also

like when you're angry What are you you know

that notion of what you're directly angry at

and what you hope to achieve? And I think one

of the ways you can think about anger also is

especially in respect to another person Yeah,

right. Do you want them to hurt or is your goal?

Correction guidance reconciliation, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So when we were talking earlier this week,

like you brought up, you know parenting Yes,

right parenting like there are times and I have

to be stern with the kids, right? You know simply

consistently being nice, you know, there are

times and they need to know that there are consequences

for either, you know, some things they could

be doing that are actually dangerous and harmful

for them in the long run, right? And I need to

be stern about making those clear to them. And

so, you know, if I scold them, there's an anger

that is geared towards... correction, towards

guidance, towards building them up. And that's

very different from lashing out, wanting somebody

to be hurt. And so those goals have to be differentiated.

Anger is a tricky thing, right? We're told that

being angry is okay, but in your anger, don't

sin. So there is a line that you're talking about.

And then we're also told that we shouldn't rush

to anger. So another scripture verse, James 1

.19, my dear brothers and sisters, take note

of this. Everyone should be quick to listen.

slow to speak and slow to become angry. So there's

a good model for us in terms of how to deal with

anger and that ultimately anger by itself is

not the solution. Another verse is because human

anger does not produce the righteousness that

God desires. I think it's okay for us to be angry,

but if angry is our solution, then we're not

giving God the space to provide the solution,

right? Either for our own self and how we feel

or in the response to whatever we're angry about.

In our culture today, like we said, we don't

use the word wrath. We do talk about anger. We

talk about or we feel resentment. So is there

a sense, like, how does our culture sort of treat

these words? Is anger seen as an appropriate

thing? Is it seen as something that we're not

supposed to express? Yeah, I think you were sort

of sharing with me earlier that there was some

tension there, right? I guess so. Yeah. I mean,

like, it's... kind of okay to be angry like it

just is but in some cases people feel like they

need to repress it yeah and that's when it gets

like really unhealthy is when you just have anger

building up and you keep putting it down right

it has nowhere to go and that can actually manifest

in like physical symptoms of like um like bad

health and stuff so right yeah that's kind of

what i was talking about yeah yeah and i think

there is a sense in which Throughout this whole

series, we sort of come back to there's often

two extremes in which people respond to things,

right? And so there is, I think you're right,

a very real sense of like, it's okay to be angry,

right? And people are encouraged to express that.

But I think there are also circumstances and

sort of subcultures in which it says, never ever

be angry about anything, right? And then it does

lead to those like negative health effects like

you were talking about. Yeah. Other thoughts,

like what does anger look like? in our culture,

is it acceptable? I think, sorry, I thought our

culture was just, it's almost categorized certain

kinds of anger as harmful. And so I think that's

easy to recognize. Abuse, assault, right? We

have these words for anger expressed in these

really harmful ways. Bullying even, you know,

what does it mean like? On the other hand, I

think that there are... Our culture feels more

and more angry in many ways, despite calling

all these out. You've got the internet that makes

anonymity, where people are aggressive on the

internet. They can bully on the internet. They

can threaten on the internet without consequences.

And they can dehumanize whoever's on the other

side. And so you've got increasing senses of

fear when we've got this kind of... digital culture

of anger that is easily expressed and it's everywhere.

If you're online in these spaces, whether it's

Facebook or social media or anywhere, you know

that that exists. So that's one space where I

think our culture, on the one hand, it is calling

out anger and on the other hand, there are entire

spaces where it's prevalent and it's destructive.

and I was thinking as you were talking there

like I wonder if part of the reason that anger

gets expressed so easily on the internet is because

we don't have enough other spaces to express

it in a healthy way maybe that's true maybe that's

not but I think folks are feeling a sense of

anger a sense of like injustice, and they just

don't know what to do with it. And suddenly they're

given the internet where they can do that. Right.

Openly and anonymously in some cases. That becomes

a problem. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes it's

a case of injustice. Sometimes it's a case of

wounded pride. Sometimes it's a case of entitlement.

Sometimes it's like there's a range of other

issues. Sometimes it's the sense of helplessness.

People needing help, feeling a lack of agency,

feeling a lack of that help, and then sort of

burning and resent. and anger at any number of

things. So there's all kinds of ways in which

the internet creates a forum for people who feel,

I would say, fear or helpless in certain ways

to sort of lash out. I think that's very well

expressed, Jordana. For me personally, I think

I struggle with anger, but maybe in a different

way. I often get people say to me, you know,

Bill, how come you never get angry? And and I

guess that's because I don't physically show

my anger. I don't get angry at people. But that's

mostly because I just keep it. Bottled up inside

sure and and I think you know not to go into

you know psychoanalyzing things, but I be It's

all my mother's fault No, it's just like I think

I just had You know I had some not very good

examples of how to deal with anger Sure, and

and I didn't want that to be part of my life

But again like we said you know one one it you

know one way pendulum swing to the other way

and the so because I didn't want to be an angry

person I guarded that in my life and just my

outward expression, it was always kind of just

to not show anger, but bottling that up inside

just, and Rob talked about it, about inappropriate

expressions of anger, right? When you don't deal

with anger, you're not appropriately angry in

your life, then it gets bottled up. And for me,

it came out in just being, in lashing out at

the people that I love the most, right? And so

instead of directing that anger in a positive

direction or towards those who needed to hear

it, I was just lashing out at, I mean, it was

eating me up inside and then it was coming out

in inappropriate ways, like affecting my family

and loved ones and stuff, which is not cool.

No, no. the other thing that i think about when

i think about like the internet is this term

like rage bait that like people put things out

there specifically because they want to make

other people angry and react to them and if we're

really honest there is a a little guilty pleasure

in the back of our minds that like is enjoying

watching internet debates play out. I don't know.

I don't know. Popcorn. Yeah. Yeah. It's like,

oh, they said that. Ooh, they took it there.

Like, yeah, I don't know. So I don't know what

that says about our culture. Yeah. I think that's

part of the architecture, though, of the internet

in certain ways. Right. And actually, that was

that it was one of those debates that got me

off Facebook because. it was a few years ago

now and a friend who I knew well in person you

know had posted something in a way that I knew

he would never do in real life and there was

this debate that happened online and then I went

to respond and I stopped myself I was like no

I wouldn't do this and you know and I also knew

that he would say this very differently, much

more gently. I knew the kind of person he was,

but the tone of contempt, of anger that emerged

online was so different from what I knew he could

be. And then I recognized how I was responding.

I was like, look, I just have to stop this. I

don't like what I'm seeing in you. I don't like

what I'm seeing in this medium, which is encouraging

and enabling this kind of speech. and I don't

like my own response and that was the point at

which I said I'm getting off this. You know,

it felt like even though we had not actually

spoken, it felt like our... relationship had

shifted based on how I was seeing him and all

of these sort of you know complicated emotions

were clashing and I thought this is not healthy

you know and it was the point at which I had

just stopped being on Facebook. It's good to

know when to check yourself yeah in a professional

setting. When I got angry about stuff, I would

allow myself to write the letter that I wanted

to write. So if I was responding to something

in association or whatever the situation was,

something got me angry. So I wrote the letter

that I wanted to write or the email that I wanted

to write, and then I gave it a day. And then

I would look at it again and maybe show it to

a couple of people and that kind of stuff. And

I'd realize that in my anger, I went too far.

And so I could say the same things, but less

inflammatory, less accusingly. And so having

given it that time and get the... comments or

reflections of a couple of the people, I was

able to rewrite that letter, rewrite that email

in a way that maybe would bring about a more

positive result as opposed to just more wood

to the fire. Right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So

we've been talking about anger in a sort of neutral

or negative sense in which, you know, sometimes

there are the things that don't, that shouldn't

cause us to be angry, that do, that cause us

to lash out. But what about when there's things

that, like, we should be justifiably angry about.

Is that possible for us to have a kind of righteous

anger or justified anger? I think definitely.

Definitely we can have a righteous anger. Okay.

So what does that look like? When does that happen?

So, I mean, when I think of righteous anger,

I always think of both the anger at something

worthy of being angry about, something that is

unjust, something that somebody's oppressing

someone. and the way the response is directed.

Both have to matter. So I think we live in a

culture where a lot of people are very righteously

angry and are not necessarily responding because,

and that's one of the dangers of I think sinful

anger, just going back a little to sinful anger.

The danger is that you feel you're right. And

so you feel justified. in victimizing somebody

else or really harming somebody else because

you're the right one and they deserve to be hurt

or they deserve to pay or they deserve to...

That's where I think even when you are right,

a response can be really problematic, right?

The places where you've got a directed anger

and I'm thinking of the greats, right? Nelson

Mandela, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr.,

even Gandhi's nonviolence, sort of you oppose

the injustice in a way that does not... reduce

the humanity of the other people. Like, if you

think about Jesus' notion that we pray for our

enemies, love our enemies, right? You know, be

angry and don't sin, don't pull from today's

sermon, don't take vengeance into your own hands.

One of the things that anger can tempt us to

do is to reduce the other person to their mistake

or to their fault. And it is a fault, right?

It is an injustice. And I think there's always

a sense in the Bible that that, given the grace

we have received, That is not the answer. You

do not reduce the person you oppose to their

fault. And so even anger that is expressed in

times of injustice, if that goal is in building

and reconciliation, correction, if it's always

just, well, now we will be deciding on justice

for you, that gets dangerous, I think. even a

righteous anger can be directed in really harmful

ways. Sure. I think there's a difference between

wrath and righteous anger, and maybe that wrath

part is where it goes into not positive direction,

but when you think of wrath, I'd say that wrath

just wants to start a fight, and then righteous

anger, this was said in the sermon today, righteous

anger wants to do what's right. And I really

like that turn of phrase. And I think it does

speak to the heart of both what wrath is all

about and what righteous anger is all about.

And for me, I think righteous anger is never

about me. And I think that's the distinction

when I'm thinking about being angry or feeling

wrath or rage. It's often an injustice. That

I feel is against me right and and so I kind

of check myself in that situation I think righteous

anger is most often I can include you but it

does it but it's It is being angry about what

is happening, something bad happening to other

people. People are being oppressed or they're

being abused and you get angry about that and

want to do something about that. I just do want

to add though that if somebody has been on the

receiving end of abuse, they might feel angry

and they'd be right to be. Oh, of course. So

when you said it's only about other people, I

just wanted to include - No, I didn't say it's

only about other people. people. I said when

it's only about me. then I check myself to make

sure that it is an appropriate anger and responding

appropriately. For me, it's a red flag. It's

not an absolute one way. Very few times am I

an absolute one way or the other. Yeah, you were

speaking about your own... I just misunderstood.

You were speaking about your own experience.

I was just going to suggest for somebody listening

if they've been on the receiving end of that

kind of... assault or abuse, you know, it may

not, it may be about them in the sense of that

healing that is necessary, that working through

that, you know, the sort of pursuing of justice.

It's perfectly okay for them to be angry, right?

But in their angry, in their anger, they can

also sin. in responding to that, right? I heard

a really powerful sermon on healing from a Baptist

bishop in the States 20 years ago. And he was

speaking to people who have been abused in the

church. I mean, in the congregation, not necessarily

abused by the church, but I guess that counts

too. But he was speaking to people who had been

abused and who were hurt and in pain and angry.

about that abuse and he was challenging them

and it was really challenging but he was challenging

them to let go and to forgive and on the basis

of that that hurt and pain and anger that they

felt day after day was just their abuser abusing

them again and again and again and if they forgave

them, they let it go, then the power of that

abuser in their life would dissipate. Sure. Yeah,

I think that's true and helpful. I think, again,

always always going back to the pairing of things.

But I think you need to pair that also with the

message that there is a time to be angry. Yeah,

there is a time to feel that and that, you know,

we don't jump right to. Letting it go and and

what letting it go looks like I think is an important

thing to say in that conversation too, right?

Yeah, because I would never want to say to anyone

who's experienced any kind of abuse, you just

need to forgive them. And therefore that means

they get off scot -free. There's no due process.

There's definitely a process. Yeah, no, I know

that's not what you're saying. I just want to

make that explicit. No, no, I agree. Thank you.

And including certain kinds of actions that redress,

right? Like you would do and can and it's legitimate

to pursue a legal... Sure against them to to

direct that anger towards the law towards yeah,

you know seeking for help towards those spaces

where Vengeance is not the place you go right

and at the same time You act in the cause of

justice to to sort of hold the oppressor the

one who has oppressed to account for sure And

those are places that we need to sort of speak

to us. Yeah for sure. Yeah, I wonder Johanna,

when you think about this concept of righteous

anger, or being angry about the right things,

what comes to mind for you? Oh my gosh, I don't

get angry that often, to be honest. I mean, the

only thing I think of is I don't get angry often,

and then the few times I do, it's really, really

disproportionate. It'll be like I stub my toe

and it's like, oh my gosh, I hate everything.

Sure. Or, I don't know, just like... Finding

ways to express it, like that's what comes to

mind for me, is like finding ways to express

any type of anger that you experience, whether

it's righteous or unrighteous, is probably really

important because that's like... what affects

other people and also yourself. So I mean, one

thing I tried was boxing, but in the first week

I sprained both of my wrists on separate occasions

because I was hitting wrong and very hard. And

yeah, that probably wasn't like a good way to

express my anger because it was unsafe. So not

angry at all is what you're saying. I mean, I

don't know. You sprained your wrist hitting people.

Yeah, I did. No, no, no, not people. Oh, things.

Yeah, it was like a big punching bag thing. Oh,

those punching bags cause damage. And it was

really hard, actually. So when I hit it, then

yeah, it's like... almost fractured but oh my

goodness yeah yeah that's a little intense yeah

so i'm not the best with like anger sure no that's

fair um but i also think about like other conversations

that we've had around you know things like fast

fashion or like social media or things like that

where you like are really passionate about those

things i never think of that as me being angry

well maybe it doesn't express itself as anger

yeah it's just yeah i'm just like Zealous. Yeah.

I'm not really mad or irritated. I don't get

frustrated that often. I'm just kind of here.

Fair. I feel like that's maybe not an anger,

but it's like an underlying passion that then

fuels itself into... Right, action and decisions

that you make about, you know, what you're going

to buy, where you're going to spend your time.

But that could start with being angry about the

injustice. Yeah, yeah, that's true, actually.

Like, I mean, they do, like, make me not happy.

Yeah. OK, well, that's one way to say it. You

have more chill language for your anger. Yeah,

I guess so. And that's not a bad thing. No, not

a bad thing at all, for sure. Yeah. So then we're

talking about wrath talking about anger And we've

sort of danced around some of the ways that it

might be helpful or it might be harmful So if

someone is feeling like anger is a big part of

their life and they're feeling like it's not

something that's helpful What would be some sort

of steps forward that that we might sort of suggest?

Like maybe like just seeking catharsis like that

stuff that'll just Just express it and get it

out of your system so that it's not like a constant

in your life. Like punching a punching bag. I

didn't have gloves either. I just kind of went

for it. Right. I mean, see, so that example like

calls to mind for me. I can think of like as

a teenager in high school, there's all kinds

of anger flying around for lots of different

reasons. But like people's go -to response and

sometimes my go -to response was just to like

hit something, right? Just like hit like, I don't

know, the wall or like a bathroom stall. Oh,

you see, you don't know. There's a big dent in

one of the lockers in my high school. Yeah, because

somebody gets really angry and like, okay, yes,

that is a kind of catharsis, but the kind of

catharsis you're calling for is like something

that's actually like healthy and helpful and

will not harm you. Yoga, that's nice. Yeah. Or

like, do hit a punching bag safely. Yeah. Whatever

you need. Put the gloves on next time. Yeah.

But the other thing I would say is reflect on

why you're angry, right? Sure. Is something happened

to you that feels a little out of control? Sure.

And you wanted it, you know, you had your own

plans, your plans are gone. Is that why you've

exploded? Yeah. Or are you feeling frustrated

about something and you're lashing out? Or what

is the real emotion below the anger? Right. Is

there fear for something? I know the times when

I have. sort of barked at my kids the worst has

been out of a space of fear like oh my god you

know this is going to be damaging for them and

you know when i shouted them in those moments

is way worse than when i have a sense of i'm

guiding you right you know and so i've had to

apologize to them in cases like that so in situations

where Anger becomes something where you're not

reflecting on what is happening there. What is

really, is it a sense of lack of agency? Are

your plans out of thing and you've got a deadline

coming up? Or is there fear there? Is there helplessness

there? Do you need to seek help instead of just

expressing the anger? Is there something deeper

happening that you need to reach out? So if you're

not getting to the root of why you're angry,

there are times when I snap at the kids because

I'm just tired after a long day of work and they

haven't done what they should do. It's like before

I know it, I've snapped at them, right? Like

a lot, when I could have been more gentle in

telling them what to do. And so in those cases,

yeah, I have to like, oh my goodness, I'm tired

here. I'm losing patience easily. Right. So there

are these other things that underlie anger and

it's worth reflecting on what it is that's making

you. Exactly. I think that kind of reflection

and that kind of understanding of self is so

important for us to... to in terms of how we

deal with anger. I think also we could look to

Jesus as an example. I think Rob did a great

job bringing up three or four different situations

in Jesus' ministry where he got angry about something.

And so following that model, what are we? What

are we getting angry about? Why is it making

us angry? What are the things, the positive,

healthy ways that we can respond to that and

just follow Jesus' example of what He did and

why? And look into that a little bit in our own

personal... a faith story or journey. And I do

want to reiterate what Rob says about praying

your anger, right? It has helped me. You know,

there will be times that I will tell God, I'm

just furious. I'm so angry right now or I am

afraid or I am, you know, just that. If we talk

about healthy expressions of anger, that's a

great place to have a healthy expression of anger.

So you are expressing the frustration. the fury,

the upset, whatever it is you're feeling, and

there's somebody listening who can take it. And

as you can release it to God. And I think that

is so important to be able to process what is

happening within you, and at the same time not

to damage relationships and things around you.

Yeah, the last thing I would just say is, you

know, something that you said when we were talking

earlier this week was thinking about, like, the

spiritual dimension of what's happening as well,

which goes back to, you know, what you were saying

about who is my anger directed at? Yeah. Right.

Like when there is something in the world that

is making us angry, it's because often something

is not right in the world. And the reason that

something is not right in the world is not because

this specific person is a terrible person. It's

because the whole system the whole world is broken,

right? And so, like, our anger doesn't need to

be directed at, you know, wrath or vengeance

upon this particular person. It's let's recognize

the, like, whole system here and recognize that,

like, yeah, there God calls us to love our enemies.

God calls us to pray for those who persecute

us. And that's real hard. It's really hard. But

What it gets at is that underlying like spiritual

dimension of sin and brokenness in the world

that Ultimately, if not in this lifetime, maybe

in the next like we do get that sense of like

peace and reconciliation Yeah, even if it's through

a hard process. Yeah. Wow. Yep. Well said It's

a really good place to direct your anger and

have an understanding, and spiritual understanding

of your anger. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, pairing

that with some of this other practical stuff,

you know, we don't want to look at the world

only through this spiritual lens. We know that

we also live as people in bodies who experience

broken things, but I think we bring them together

really well. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, folks.

This has been… a hopeful conversation about anger,

which is really good, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so for those who are listening, thank you

for tuning in and listening to us talk this through.

And hopefully it's prompted some reflection in

your life as well. And you can find some helpful

ways to move through those situations that cause

anger in you. And we'll see you again next week.