Food is More Than What’s On Your Plate | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.

And I'm Bill. And we are here for the last time

to wrap up our series about the seven deadly

sins. And we are going to be talking about the

last sin, or at least the last in our particular

list. I don't know if they're really ranked in

any kind of way. But the last one on our list

is gluttony. So let's start by just talking about

what is... Gluttony. I think when we think about

it sort of commonly, we think about it as, you

know, excessive eating. And I think that's definitely

part of it. But are there other things that sort

of fall within what gluttony is? Yeah. I mean,

I was thinking more of an excessive obsession

with food. Okay. Right. And that can take various

forms. Sure. A sort of unhealthy way in which

food ends up being the place for your ultimate

satisfaction or for your fulfilling of more than

nourishing and needs. So yeah, I would say that

it can manifest in very different ways, not necessarily

only excessiveness. Well, I'd like to say that

I did an extensive word study and I kind of dived

into the etymology of the word gluttony and looked

at the roots in the Greek and the Hebrew and

just kind of dug into that and stuff, but I just

did a Google search. Okay. And what does the

Almighty Google have to say about that? And the

Google search, the definition as it relates to

the seven deadly sins is... excessive indulgence

and overconsumption of anything to the point

of waste, particularly food and drink. I think

there's a bunch to unpack there. It's an indulgence,

of course, but it's an overindulgence or an excessive

indulgence and a consumption. I think we've talked

about that. But it says of anything. It's an

overindulgence or overconsumption of anything.

It does say particularly food or drink, but generally

it can be anything. I mean, we could talk about

a gluttony or a gluttonous attitude over social

media or something like that, right? But it does

say particularly food or drink. And then the

next line, it says, it's considered a sin when

it leads to a lack of control over one's relation

with food or causes harm to the body. Um, and

I think that is two more key points, right? Where

it says, where it's, it's about a lack of control.

And I think for me, that's, that really kind

of strikes home. That's, that's a, that's an

important thing to me is kind of having, having

control over myself. And so anything that causes

a lack of control is concerning. Uh, and then

it's, uh, and then it's also about harm. Um,

so when we think about that, like what, how does,

you know, what does, how does gluttony relate

to harming ourself or harming others. So that's

an interesting thing to think about as well.

Yeah, and to think about harming others as well,

I think that's an interesting dynamic to sort

of pull into it, right? Because we think of,

at least I think of gluttony as a very sort of

personal thing. Yeah, and so it all sort of revolves

around this relationship with food, right? And

so I think maybe for us to really fully understand

what Gluttony is maybe we need to understand

like what our relationship to food is Right.

So if you were to think about Maybe the opposite

of gluttony or like what what a healthy relationship

with food looks like like what what is that?

Beats me I think there is information there on

that, right? We know of cultures that have healthier

relationships with food. They're eating real

food. They're eating it in community. What do

you mean by real food? So food that is not necessarily

full of synthetic. Okay, right so like like whole

or things that are grown locally necessary Sometimes

but even if if it's coming from elsewhere We're

talking about something that is closer to where

it has or how it's been grown as opposed to where

you've got a range of stabilizing Synthetic chemicals

put there now those can have benefits right in

different ways but in general what you've got

food is food that is very often prepared, more

intentionally eaten within a community. Because

it's eaten in a community, it's regulated inherently,

right? Because it means that you're waiting for

people to come together when you eat. You're

not simply going off by yourself and gorging

or something like that. And so you've got a lot

of cultures that actually do, I think, have rhythms

of preparing, eating. and then eating in community

that allow for inherently less consumption, slower

consumption, healthier eating. And so we can

look at those as ingredients in what it might

be to eat more healthily. And within a Christian

framework too, we recognize food is good, right?

It's a gift. It was in the garden. Eat off the

trees in the garden, right? I mean, we focus

on the one tree that was prohibited, but every

other tree was available to eat. Eat anything

you want over here. And so it's a good gift that

you can receive and enjoy with people. and be

a place for creativity and so much that is good.

And it can go out of whack, right? I think for

my family, the transition to healthy eating involved

more kind of moving from food in a box. to fruits

and vegetables and actual ingredients that go

into making a meal. As opposed to buying a meal

in a box, you're buying the things that you prepare

to make the meal. And often, I think most often,

that's healthier eating than buying products.

I think I was told, it was probably Natalie that

told me this a while ago, but it was just, buy

most of your stuff at the grocery store along

the outside wall of the grocery store. Shop along

the edges. Yeah, shop along the edges. Yeah,

that's exactly. And don't go down the aisles.

The aisles are bad. Just shop along the edges.

And that's more of where the kind of the healthier

food items are. You know, fruits and vegetables

and meat and stuff. Yeah. So we're talking about

a healthy relationship with food in terms of

like healthy foods. But I think it also extends

a bit further. Right? Like when I think about

So I grew up in a rural area where there was

like lots of farming and things like that I don't

think we ever in my life bought apples from the

grocery store because there was someone in my

church who like had an apple orchard and just

like gave Apples to everybody in the church,

right? And so we knew exactly where those apples

came from Yes, right and I can think of the same

thing like every summer we went and picked our

own strawberries and blueberries and things like

that, right and then You know, my mom would make

jam. So, like, the first time that I had jam

that was, like, not homemade, I was like, this

is just too sweet. It's just not good. Right,

right, right. So, just all, like, it's the food

that we eat, but it's also, like, the connections

to the land, to the people, like, all of those

things, I think, also. help constitute a healthy

relationship to food because it has a story.

Yeah, I mean, I was just reflecting on growing

up in India, right? I mean, I grew up in Mumbai

and we didn't snack. Like at the time, it wasn't

a snacking culture. So we would have breakfast

in the morning, go off, like I'd be off to school.

I would have my lunch packed. I'd have that,

come back, have, you know, play a bit and go.

There was dinner, but there wasn't any snacking

in between. that was partly just how you did

things. Even dessert, it's not really a huge

dessert culture. So dessert was only for feasts.

So we didn't even have dessert every day. Chocolate

was only on special occasions, was super expensive.

And cookies, it's not a cookie culture. And so

cake was only for birthdays. And so you inherently

just ate less, ate nourishing food. and ate at

specific times. And so, yeah, there was just

not like a pantry in the way I have right now

with a few snacks there for me to snack at other

times. It just wasn't there. Whereas all of that,

I think crept into my life once we came to Canada,

right? Because it's everywhere all the time.

So to think about North American culture, you

know, you've lost that connection. to food, where

that's part of a holistic, healthy understanding

of food and where it comes from and all that

kind of stuff. And we've also kind of misplaced

where food is in our life. I think for a lot

of us, where food is... We're trying to make

ourselves feel better as opposed to nurturing

our bodies. We're trying to kind of feed emotionally.

We're trying to kind of fill that hole with food

as well, which is not healthy. Yeah, for sure.

A healthy vision for food is, yeah, healthy foods,

a connection to land, a sense of moderation of

some kind. Yeah, moderation, community with other

people. Yeah, so then, as Bill started to take

us into, how does an unhealthy relationship with

food show up in our culture today? And maybe

we can draw some connections there to gluttony,

if we understand gluttony in a holistic sense

of an unhealthy relationship to food. Yeah, so

you've already said, you know, like the boxed

food and and yeah, I think there is something

to that. The like convenience of like whether

it's, you know, fast food in a sense of like

going out to a restaurant for fast food or even

like fast food, like here's a frozen meal that

will take you two minutes to eat up. Right. Like

that, I think, destroys some of that connection.

Yeah, it destroys so many connections. It destroys

because you don't know where it comes from. It

doesn't. You don't know how it's processed. Yeah.

that isn't the sort of intentionality that comes

from preparing food. And I say this not as if

I've got it all figured out. Like I struggle,

you know, and so many pressures I think we have

here in North America that make it hard to have

a healthy sort of let's sit down and eat and

connect in family each day, right? I mean, I

come home from work, I'm tired. Like it's easy

to reach for something that's already prepared

if I haven't been intentional about. cooking

the day before or two days before, right? Stuff

like that where you're consistently having to

prepare. But yeah, I think, you know, so the

industrialization of food, as we talked about,

destroys that connection. The ways in which when

industrialization happens, so many of the foods

we prepare or are prepared are empty calories,

right? So what it actually does is fuel then.

like because you've eaten things that are not

necessarily nourishing, your body needs it and

you feel hungry more often. Right. And so it,

you know, so it's not, it's like a lot of ways

in which our cultures, the way it creates food

products can feed, it can make it more difficult

for people to actually then have a healthier

relationship with food, right? So it's our pressures

on our time. you know not having time but also

the fact that even if we do go buy food some

of that isn't really good and then it can fuel

right urges and it fuels a hunger that then like

more naturally leads to overconsumption because

the things that we consumed are not nourishing

that's right yeah yeah yeah so that's when you're

just talking about food itself that's just the

food bar when you're talking about when you're

talking about people that are eating food in

place of or while they're hungering for something.

That's not food. They're hungry for something

else. So not only is the food, the quality of

the food that we're eating not nourishing our

bodies in a physical sense, but we're grabbing

for that food to try and trying to fill a different

hunger that food can't fill either. So I mean,

there's just a lot of want that's left at the

end of that equation. Yeah. So in the Sermon

of Oat Gluttony, Rob made this sort of joke about

the the cardiogastric canal, which is like, you

know, this connection between our stomach and

our heart, that when we're feeling a longing

for something else, for God, for connection,

like when we're feeling lonely or feeling stressed,

even though those aren't like physical hunger

pains, we try to fill that with food. We reach

to soothe with food, essentially. Yeah, exactly.

The other thing that I think about in terms of,

you know, Western culture's relationship to food

is, you know, back to at the beginning, you said

that, you know, gluttony is about harming ourselves,

but also harming other people, right? And so

there's this connection to them, like food waste

and overindulgence in a world where other people

don't have enough food. Right? So yeah, can you

just reflect on like what that looks like? That's

an important part of this discussion for me because

kind of my background, my work background is

working with people that are hungry and that

go without working with homeless populations

and underprivileged populations. And that's a

real issue with having enough food for themselves

and for their families. And when I see other

people in our culture, in our community that

have enough, that have excess, that waste food,

and it just doesn't seem to be that care and

concern for the community overall. I see that

as a... Literally, it's a bit as a waste as a

I mean, that's a that's a tragedy It just it

just kind of gets gets gets my blood burning

a little bit right that the I know anger was

last week But but it's just we're you know, it

that it's there's an injustice there that that

is that is solidly around around food and and

making and you know, some of us kind of not caring,

you know, just you know not realizing Maybe that,

you know, that they're that everyone doesn't

have what we have. Right. And there's some people

that go without. And the reality is, if we if

we shared, everyone would have enough. But but

we don't. But that's part of the problem is that

we don't have that same. sense of community,

that sense of other, to be able to kind of understand

how we can, instead of being part of the problem,

we can be part of the solution. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

for sure, for sure. Yeah, which is why then I

think about eating together. is such an important

like move to sort of counteract that, right?

Because it is, it's inviting people into this

table of stuff that I have, like quite literally,

right? And saying, okay, there is enough. Like

I can invite more people into this. I don't need

to like hold on. Yeah, when I was working at

the dam years ago, we would do weekly family

meals or community dinners with the youth that

were coming to the drop -in. And there would

be 15 or 20 of us, some staff, volunteers, and

youth. And we'd make the meal together, and we

would sit down and eat the meal together. And

I was just amazed when we were sitting down talking

while we're eating, and youth would be reflecting,

like, this is so nice. We should do this. I should

do this at home with my family. And I'm like,

you don't? No, no, we've never sat down like

this as if as if like never I'm like, how is

that possible? Oh yeah, when I go home, I just

grab something and I sit in front of the TV or

go to my room and my dad doesn't come home until

late or whatever. There's all sorts of stories,

right? But the thing is that that family meal,

which I guess at some point was a much more common

thing for everyone to come together. And again,

it's not just about the food and sharing a meal

or even it together, which is also great. But

the time that you have together to talk about

your day and to find out what's going on and

to chat and catch up and all that kind of stuff,

there's so many families that are missing out

on all of that. And to the detriment of each

and every family and the detriment of our community

and probably our culture. Yeah, for sure. In

light of all of that, in light of this sort of

good, healthy relationship to food and this other

sort of relationship that has all of these tensions,

gluttony, we talk about it as a sin, which means

that we presume that there's some spiritual impact

in all of this as well. So what is the spiritual

impact of gluttony and is it different somehow

than just the disconnection and the overeating?

Yeah, I think just given where our conversation

has been, I would say it's the space where food

is not appreciated as the gift and as the place

of communion that it is. So that can happen by

grabbing too much, right? Where it's just all

for me. not this good thing you receive with

others. And at the same time, it can manifest

in so many different, like not caring enough,

even, not being intentional about eating. And

so it can also manifest in damaging ways on the

other side, where you just don't care, where

you're not, as you said, Bill, people are not

necessarily getting together anymore to eat together.

where food before if somebody was preparing it

and people were eating together, you have that

connection. Now that's just let go. It's not

even recognized. And so I think Latine can be

this odd space where you can have too much or

too little. You can go into cycles of too much

and too little. And you just end up having this

really unhealthy space where you're willing to

sacrifice or not put attention to those elements

of of its goodness and its opportunity for connection

that is sort of built into what it might be when

it's eaten well, right? Or taken in well. That's

sort of where I would say that spiritual dimension

is you're willing to sacrifice really important

things for shallower or reductive view of just

consumption. And sort of recognizing like, It's

hard to figure out how to put food in its proper

place. Because you don't want food to be way

up here. We're like, it's food and God. But you

also don't want food to be just a tool. If we're

overeating or if we're eating for emotional reasons

or other fulfillment reasons, then food becomes

a tool to comfort. Or if we're looking at diet

culture, food becomes a tool to shape our bodies

in a particular way. And we don't want that,

right? So we need to sort of put food back in

its proper place, somewhere in the middle there,

where it is a good gift from a good God. It's

not God. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think food is

a, there is a spiritual component to food. And

I think that's kind of why gluttony is included

in the seven deadly sins, like you said. I think

it's a, and what Rob said in the sermon about,

or making that connection between our heart and

our stomach, I think is really important. Reflecting

on that because I think a lot of the misplaced

desire around food comes from us thinking that

when we're hungry, it's our stomach talking to

us and not our heart talking to us. And I think

this goes back to I think the first podcast that

we did together on the first Deadly Send when

we were talking about. the believing as one of

the building blocks of growing up well, right?

Just saying that God has created us to believe.

That's a built -in thing. So we have a desire

to believe in something. And so we choose to

believe in a lot of things. Or have that... something

take that place of belief. And in some cases,

you know, people worship food. And it's too something,

it's too much, it's too fancy. Like Guru Ram

was saying, people are too picky, right? But

like you said, they place food in an inappropriate

place in between them and God, where food becomes

their idol, becomes their God. And so God did

create us to believe, but he created us to believe

in him. So we said way back in that first session,

we said that that hole in our heart, not our

stomach, but that hole in our heart is a God

-shaped hole. And when we try to fill it with

food and with drink in this gluttonous kind of

way, it's never going to fully satisfy, right?

And the only satisfaction... Satisfaction? Satisfaction,

thank you. The only satisfaction that we will

find is if we put God in that God -shaped hole.

And the food has a place, right? I think there's

nothing wrong with enjoying food and certainly

enjoying food in community with family or in

groups and stuff, but it can't take the place

of God. as you were talking there, I was reflecting

on, in scripture, Jesus is called like a glutton

and a drunkard. Jesus like went out and partied.

Jesus like had meals with people. It's like,

obviously food is good. Food is, I think an important

part of the kingdom of God. It is. In its proper

place. Yeah. Right. And sometimes that includes

feasting and sometimes that includes, you know,

extravagant fancy food, but it's also includes

the everyday. It also includes the Some of the

analogies of heaven is a banquet, is a feast.

It is, yeah. I mean, that's good times, right?

Yeah, sounds good to me. But it does feel right,

like when you think about the fact that... Feasting

is, you know, Jesus is feasting with people.

And he's receiving their hospitality and creating

connections. Or there are times of feasting,

right, that are quite distinct from every day

or distinct from times of fasting as well. Whereas

I think we do live in a culture which thinks

that every day should be a day of feast, right?

And so I think that's where the excess sometimes

comes in. Every day you've got to eat well. Every

day you have... the right to have a feast, right?

And that sense of the simplicity and nourishment

of the everyday with the feast being the space

of beauty and connection. Those kinds of rhythms

are totally lost, I think, in our culture. And

it isn't just excessiveness, like I'm thinking

of food channels, right? There's like... you

know, banquets every day on there. I cannot try

and think like you need to cook like that all

the time. Right. Right. If anyway, so I was just

people joke about food porn, right? Yeah. Yeah.

There's that lust for food and good food and

delicious food and you know, feasting food that

is totally excessive. And you think about, you

know, if you stop and reflect that is so, so

different from even the West about 50, 60 years

ago, maybe when things began to change. So we've

just got a whole culture of pressure to eat in

unhealthy ways, I think, and not intentional,

not communal, but consistently holding up, you

know, food as a kind of God, as you said, build

an idol. Yeah. So in light of all of that, all

of the ways that we are tempted to have an unhealthy

relationship with food, what are some sort of

practical steps or tips that we might sort of

try to practice to redirect our relationship

with food, to reorient it a bit. So you were

just talking about feasting and how feasting

is good in moments, but it shouldn't be our everyday.

It's not our everyday. Right? And so that makes

me then think of like the opposite of feasting,

which is fasting. Yeah. And I think fasting in

Western culture right now, fasting often shows

up as like a diet trend. Yes. As like or like

intermittent fasting or just like different things,

which I'm not saying that's bad. Like that that

has its place. But I think fasting for a spiritual

purpose and for with the mindset of like, OK,

we're going to reorient our relationship to food

in this moment. Right. And and take the focus.

off of food. Absolutely. And off of body image.

Yes. And reorient it to like, I'm fasting because

I want to like put God in God's place and put

food in food's place. That's the reason why you

should fast. Cause I think there's a lot of people

who fast, maybe even for spiritual reasons, but

they're still preoccupied by food, right? So

when they're not eating, they're thinking of...

not eating, and they're not necessarily taking

that opportunity to kind of reorient their priorities.

And so I encourage anyone who wants to try fasting

that when that hunger comes up is that they use

that as a trigger to kind of understand more.

what their hunger for food is all about, but

what is their hunger for God all about? And how

can they reorientate that desire from food to

God and understanding more of filling the heart

as opposed to filling the stomach. Yeah. So we

have fasting. Are there other? Tips or things

that we might say gratitude. Yeah. Okay. I was

gonna say gratitude, you know the times when

When we've practiced being grateful for food.

I always I don't know whether it's just me But

it's certainly when I've cooked and put food

on the table. Yeah, it's easier to feel grateful

It is then if you shove something in, you know,

that's already prepared and munch it down and

so You know, practicing that gratitude just brings

you intentionally to recognize food as a gift

that it is and God as the giver of that gift

that he is, right? And it certainly slows you

down instead of, I don't know, wolfing down whatever

is put in front of you straight away without

a thought. So, yeah, I would say gratitude is

one practice that we can... And, you know, and...

I know people have so many different health needs,

so I want to say this with some caution, but

as much as possible, reach for the vegetables,

reach for the fruits, reach for the things that

help you inherently moderate. They talk about

the fact that if you put more vegetables on your

plate, chances of overeating because you've got

a whole lot of refined grains are fewer, inherently.

So if struggles with quantity are an issue, you

know, instead of constantly obsessing about sizes,

maybe some, you know, move towards the sorts

of whole, if you can. fruits and vegetables and

things. Those are very practical things that

I struggle to incorporate in my own life. Not

always successfully. That's a great suggestion

on healthy eating. Yeah. That reminds me, I forgot

I was going to bring a big stack of cookies and

just be eating a cookie, just like constantly

like one cookie after another as we're talking

and just like, oh yeah, okay. I thought it would

be ironic, but I forgot to bring them. It's unfortunate.

Yes. We could probably find some cookies in the

kitchen. We probably could. We just start at

the beginning again. That's OK. I don't need

to be eating cookies all through the podcast.

The other thing, like when you were talking about,

you know, choosing vegetables, one of the things

it's hard to do in Canada in the winter, but

when you can is like choosing food that like

you know where it comes from. Yeah. Right. And

it you reestablish that connection. So all summer

long, I will do my best. I don't always do. great,

but I will do my best to buy all of my produce

at like farmers markets. Oh, nice. Right. Because

like I want to be able to say, OK, it's not just

like, OK, this is a whole food. This is a whole

food with a story. Yes. That I can like go and

see and I can build a relationship with the person

who grew this food and like, yeah, just like

reestablishing those connections to the food.

And then. Ideally consuming that food in connection

with other people. Yeah, right So like I know

where this I have this connection to the food

I have this connection to other people and it

it just reorients those like this is what food

is really meant to be it's like a A thing that

brings us together, I think. Yeah, and I think

that is also one of the antidotes to gluttony

is eating food together. Yes. So there is a communal,

a community aspect to food. I mean, it's no mistake

that Jesus took the Passover. dinner and made

it into the last supper where he shared with

his disciples and others and said, you know,

this is my body and this is my blood. Because

that was an important aspect of life is coming

together to eat together. And then that turned

into life giving, not just on a physical level,

but on a spiritual level. And so there's this

great analogy between actually eating a meal

and partaking of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist

or Holy Communion in the service and it has some

great connections there. And I just wanted to

do a shout out for the community meal that we

have here at Trinity because that also kind of

in terms of the reasons why we wanted to do it

in the first place is that we identified a need

in the community of people that were going hungry,

but people that were also lonely. And so the

community meal that we do each month at Trinity

brings people in for the community. Many of the

members of the church volunteer to help out to

run the program, but we're bringing in people

in the community who are facing food insecurity,

who are facing social isolation, and we're providing

good food and a great environment, a great community,

friendship, and I think that is kind of in the

face. It's the community coming together to care

for each other and to do that in relationship

over a good meal. That's a cure -all, if anything

else is. In the short time that we've been doing

it, I think we've experienced a lot of really

great benefits that have come out of that. Yeah,

for sure. I feel like we've ended up in this

place that we come to again and again throughout

our conversations, which is that our sins and

the antidotes to these sins are all about balance,

right? It's all about, you know, the seven deadly

sins are all about, you know, the things that

we are trying to go for in place of God. Yes.

And the antidotes to these sins, the things that

help us is bringing whatever it is, whether it's

food or sex or money or power, bring that back

into its proper place. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think so, yes. It's the balance. When you

talk about the balance, I was thinking, well,

actually, it's about that reorientation towards

God, recognizing the place, as you said, the

place of these in relation there and then recognizing.

how to avoid some of the insanity that happen

when they take up the place of an idol. So the

answer really is Jesus. It is Jesus. We joke

about that as a Sunday school thing. The answer

really is Jesus. It's Jesus as creator, right?

It's Jesus as Savior, it's Jesus as someone,

as comforter, as friend, as the one who shapes

your identity, as the one who calls you to follow

him and says his yoke is easier and his burden

is lighter than carrying all the burdens of this

world that you can exchange his following. And

Jesus said he is the bread of life. And he is

the bread of life. All the things. Yeah. No,

that's so good. Um, yeah, so thank you for this

conversation and for this whole series of conversations.

I think this has been a really hopeful way to

lean into some of the problems that we sometimes

experience in our culture, but also the hope

that is offered to us through the way of Jesus.

Well, thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, thanks,

Kyla. Thanks, Bill. And thank you for tuning

in and listening to us throughout this whole

conversation. I hope that you have also been

able to find some moments of hope, some moments

of ways to move forward and pursuing the way

of Jesus, even amidst all of the challenges of

this life. So we'll see you again next week.