Trauma and Truth: Reconciliation in Canada | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity

Talks. My name is Kyla and this week I am so

excited to be sitting down with Rochelle and

Linda to mark the National Indigenous Peoples

Day which happens on June 21st here in Canada.

And yeah, Linda and Rochelle are just going to

talk to us a little bit about... how that day

and the history of Indigenous people in Canada

intersects with our faith and the history of

the church in Canada. So I'm really looking forward

to this conversation. Thank you for joining me,

ladies. Thank you so much, Kyla. Yeah. We'll

get you to start by introducing yourselves. So

maybe Rochelle, do you want to go first? Sure.

OK, so yeah, thanks for having us today. My name

is Rochelle. I have been going to Trinity for

about three years. Grew up in Canada. I live

in Mississauga, grew up in Northern Ontario in

a place called Sioux Lookout with my mother here,

my dad and my older sister. And yeah, we're going

to be chatting about... Indigenous Peoples' Day

a little bit, and so, or how, I guess, being

Indigenous interacts with our faith. And so,

yeah, I'm First Nation. I'll let my mom speak

a little bit more to that. But we are part of

a people group called the Severin Cree. And yeah,

so that's the kind of the groundwork for why

I'm here. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Go ahead.

My name is Linda Martin and as Rochelle said,

I'm her mom and I'm originally from a place called

Muscrat Dam. It's an isolated community and I

married 40 years ago and since then I haven't

been able to live back in the community. Presently

we live just outside Winnipeg and both my husband

and I are doing mission work for 25 years now.

Okay, very cool. So my first question, I want

to sort of root us in your faith backgrounds.

So when did you first learn about Jesus and what

was that sort of faith experience like for you?

Do you want to start, Linda? Okay. I grew up

just knowing about God and knowing of God. And

God was real to me. And I know that a lot of

our history as Indigenous people, many of my

people, the Indigenous people, don't... I struggle

with believing in God, and that comes from the

experiences we've had with the church and through

the residential school system and the colonization.

But it was about 20 years ago that I realized

that we had that history, that kind of history,

about 25 years ago. I knew about it, but... I

began to really understand the impact that has

had on us as a nation. So myself, I've always

believed in God, knew of God. And then, I mean,

I'm just curious, because I know you've shared

this with me. Growing up, you would hear your

grandmother share stories of God and Jesus in

the Bible. And so from a very young age, you...

Mm -hmm. Heard those stories, right? Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Because the way our family was structured,

my grandparents are a very big part of our, like,

day -to -day living. Sure. Many nights we would

go over to sleep over at my grandparents' house

and our tent, not house. And so she would tell

us stories of Jesus and stories about God as

bedtime stories. Right. And from there on, like

as a six, seven year old, you just heard about

God. Right. In that way. And that became part

of the formation or the foundation of my faith.

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And I think,

you know, Mom, you can share a bit more maybe

later, but your story then of becoming a young

woman and Meeting God in a in a new way impacted

your life then and so for me You know you and

dad got married and at the time you got married

you were Christians. You're both Christians So

for me, I grew up in a home then right from the

get -go was Christian, right? We went to church.

I saw you guys reading your Bibles and praying

and so Yeah, I just grew up in a Christian home.

And so yeah, that's kind of like the beginnings

of my journey sure yeah yeah yeah that's cool

are there ways linda that you think your faith

as a child was like different than the way that

you know rachelle might have experienced faith

as a child or were they sort of similar stories

similar ways of of thinking about it so i think

for me like As indigenous people of Canada, we

were missionized by different denominations.

In my tribal area, there's about 52 communities.

We had the Anglican Church that came to us, came

to our villages and brought the message of Jesus

to us. And so for me, I think just Coming to

learn about Jesus from outside was how I began

to understand, know of God, understand God. And

whereas with Rachelle, it was just she was born

into it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know that.

That definitely sort of sets a bit of a different

tone, right? Whether this is something that you

feel like is really part of you or if it's something

that you're still trying to bring the pieces

together, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So

how has your indigenous identity shaped your

experience or your understanding of faith? Because

of my early introduction to God and understanding

of God and knowing about God. It was kind of,

it just kind of became a natural progression

of my journey. When I came to a hard place in

my life as a young woman, it was to God I turned

to. And I called out to God. And I really experienced

God answering my prayer. And He became real to

me. And from there on, it was like a personal

commitment that I made. But I can't say that

to the rest of my Indigenous people in Canada,

because a large percentage of my people, probably

like 90%, they went through the residential school

system. I have aunts and uncles and first cousins

that went to the residential school. And there

they experienced the concept of God as being

like something that they had to do. Like there

were ritual prayers that they had to do, even

the Lord's Prayer was something. It was a ritual

prayer that they were asked to do in order to

pray. So it was more like a legalistic or a system

in some ways that was brought the concept of

God or the reality of God. And so as part of

the reaction to that pain, to that trauma in

the residential schools, Christianity and the

concept, and God is one of the things that they

said that they're not, are experiencing as not

wanting to be part of their life in the present.

And I think for me, we work in the field of trauma.

And one of the things that we talk about or teach

the people that we work with is that one of the

initial impacts of trauma is to have all or nothing

thinking, which is like, for example, for my

people, coming away from a traumatic experience,

having maybe been in a residential school for

seven years and having experienced emotional

abuse, physical abuse, and spiritual abuse. Many

of them came away not wanting to be part of that

because it was hurtful to them. So trauma, one

of the reactions from trauma is that all or nothing

thinking that all churches are bad. And part

of our healing needs to be to come to a place

that where we recognize that not all churches

are bad. There are some really good churches.

And the same idea is to being in a relationship

or getting to know non -Indigenous people. I'm

married to a non -Indigenous man. And so my healing

in that journey with another people group, even

though the non -Indigenous people were our colonizers

and are the settlers, and a lot of pain has come

from that, even to this day. For me part of my

healing has been to learn to understand that

There are some really good non -indigenous people,

right and some really Non -indigenous people

that still hurt you today. Yeah, and I see that

today even in the political mm -hmm World. Yeah.

Oh for sure for sure. Yeah Yeah, it's interesting

for you to sort of draw. I'll you know what your

personal experience has been, but also what the

experience of indigenous people in general has

been, right? And sort of recognizing that you

had this really important moment where you know

God sort of more intimately, and you know God

as someone who saves and heals. But yeah, against

this backdrop of indigenous people's experience

in general, which has been Yeah, as you said,

sort of more legalistic or more painful at times,

right? It's recognizing all of these different

pieces are true at the same time. Yes. And when

you're right in the midst of it, it's hard to

see beyond the pain that you're going through.

Yeah. And I see that still today with my people

group. We are still in that place of in the middle

of that pain. And a lot of it too is like we

are just learning right now to find our voices

and to begin to name the things that have happened

to us because for so many years, hundreds of

years actually, you know, we were silenced. The

colonization had a systemic approach the way

they took away our culture, our children, our

families. And it's really, when there's a systemic

assimilation, it's really hard to see it happen

because it happens over generations. So part

of my journey has been learning to understand

that. And for me, what I see happening, like

with Richelle, Each generation is going to know

more about our history and how we can get better.

And we can get stronger. Each generation gets

more educated, has more understanding, and healing

will take place as we understand more. Yeah,

and I think to your point there, as I've grown

up Christian, and then as I became an adult,

learned about our history and so began to question,

okay, as a Christian, what does this mean for

me? How do I wrestle with this tension? But working

through all of that and then coming to a place

where I think actually my identity as an indigenous

woman and the traditions and the culture, like

as we've been reclaiming our culture, that's

a big thing that's happening now among my generation

and my cousins and younger. there's this reclamation

of culture. And like, for me, as a Christian,

God has really blessed that journey and been

like, it's almost been, it's expanded my understanding

of God, to be honest, and just how beautiful

culture is, how He created culture. He wants

it to be celebrated. You know, He created us

all so diverse. And as someone who is part of

a people group, that I've looked at our history

and been like, oh, wow, like that stuff was taken

away from my family members. Even the right to

be a parent was taken away. Their culture was

taken away. The language was taken away. As we're

reclaiming that, I'm like, God says that's good,

right? God says that's good to reclaim this,

to celebrate it, to see the beauty in it. So

there was a time where I had tension between

these two identities, but I've come to a place

where I've been like, oh, God really blesses

that. Right, yeah. And in addition to what Rochelle

is saying, I think for me, another thing I struggled

with is my sense of identity. Like who am I?

Because even our, the education system at a great

school level, it was all like, I graduated, I

finished grade eight thinking that the social

studies, the early explorers that I learned in

my social studies classes, thinking that was

my history. Right. Thinking so part of my journey

has been to separate that and recognize, no,

that's not my history. Right. But what is my

history? I didn't have history. So part of my

journey has been to recognize the impact that

all that has had on us, on me individually, like

the sense of oppression, being an oppressed people,

and having shame as a shame that tells you you

don't have a place in society. Shame that says

you're invisible, shame that says you don't have

anything important to say. In that journey of

oppression and the experience of shame, is when

I began to understand too that, no, it is God

who has created me and who I am as an indigenous

woman. Genesis 1, 26, 27 talks about that, that

God created us as male and female. And so once

I could begin to understand that, I too began

to see the beauty of different nationalities,

different people groups, that we all represent

something of who God is, like the whole world.

And that doesn't even capture who God is. But

we see the beauty of all different nationalities,

and all of us reflect something of who God is.

And I just see that as beautiful. And that includes

me and my nation. that we have something to bring,

that we have something that we reflect of who

God is. Yeah, for sure. Well, that's so good.

It's interesting to sort of hear you both reflect

on a sort of similar theme of, right, like bringing

your indigenous identity and your Christian identity

together. And I'm wondering in terms of like

timelines of that, like has that journey Lined

up for both of you or have you been doing that

at different times? And how have you supported

one another sort of through that? Tell me to

share first. Okay I think different timelines

I think but maybe similar in terms of when it

happened to us, but I can't speak for you. So

for me I Again group Christian and then when

I started learning about this the history of

our country and the oppression that people, my

people have experienced, people I love. And then

you start hearing about aunts and uncles who

went to residential school and went to, these

were run by churches. And you start having all

these questions, almost like a crisis of faith,

where you're like, how could this have happened

to people I love, by people I love? And how do

I now Live in this tension and so that happened

in my early late teens early 20s really wrestled

with that and then again more recently with the

Discovery of the unmarked graves in Kamloops

and that was 20 was that 2019 We can fact -check

that but when that happened it it honestly like

resurged it was like a resurgence of anger And

another crisis of faith where I said, we knew

this happened. I knew this happened. But how

could this have happened again? And it was really

hard for me to reconcile how these two pieces

could go together. And it was hard. Church was

a hard place to be in because there was so much

going on in my head. I was looking around and

just having really... Like just a, just a challenging

time saying, how can I step foot in a church

with what has happened? Like because of the church

and fell into very all or nothing thinking where

I was like, okay, this is all bad. All of it's

bad. And, you know, just kind of spiraling. Um,

but you know, the thing that was consistent through

it all was my faith in God. And God is faithful.

And he was with me through that time and was

able to reveal himself through it as good. And

that reminder that, okay, God is good. God is

faithful. The example of Jesus in the Bible,

he's a justice seeker. you know, he looks out

for the oppressed, he loves children. Those messages

were deeply rooted enough in my heart that I

came to a place where I said, okay, God is good.

People do bad things sometimes. But even, you

know, being part of Trinity, being part of a

church community for so many years, I was able

to then look at the people I had built relationships

with and been like, There are good people. These

are good people pursuing reconciliation, pursuing

friendship. And then there's also, you know,

like what's happened in the past was awful. There

needs to be justice served and we're still pursuing

that, right, on this journey of reconciliation.

But anyways, yes, that's how it kind of went

unraveled for me. I think for me it was in my

early 30s. And I had been, I was doing, I did

a three year BA in social sciences and it was

in my sociology classes, courses that I began

to see what happened in this country. And I remember

that one year when I understood what's happened

to us as indigenous people. There was a sense

of anger that I had. And everywhere I looked

and I saw non -Indigenous people, there was anger

that came. And I was kind of in a conflict because

I was already married to a non -indigenous family.

Wait, I love this man. He's white. Exactly. But

I didn't not get to that place yet where I understood

the impact of trauma is having a black and white

thinking. I wasn't there yet. It was more like...

But that's a confusing place to be. Oh, it is.

It is. There's so much conflict. And I think

many of my people never... get past that conflict.

They understand now we've been hurt by the system,

whatever that is. We've been hurt by the system,

and there's so much anger. And I think many of

us are still stuck in that. So for me, it was

in my early 30s that I realized what had happened.

And there was anger. And I remember one day down

in the Kichina Waterloo area, we were at the

gas station and I saw these little non -Indigenous

kids. And these are innocent children. You felt

anger because they represented a nation that

hurt us. And during that time also, it was like

I was looking at my reality, the world in like

split level. It's constantly going back and forth.

It's the dissonance of being, I think, an Aboriginal

person today. You keep going back and forth in

the two worlds and all. But I have come to a

place of, again, I see the beauty of God's creation

of all humanity, that we all represent something

beautiful of who God is. I'm in my sixties now,

so that was a long time ago talking to God. When

you were talking, Rachelle, about recognizing

that God is faithful, even in the midst of really

hard things, the thing that came to mind for

me was, God is faithful even when God's people

aren't faithful. God is still good even when

people do things in the name of God that are

not good. And learning to sort of tease out those

differences, I think, is a really important step

in the journey. And that it wasn't God. It wasn't

God that did those things to us. That needs to

be part of the discernment in our healing journey.

Even though many of those residential schools

were run by the government in partnership with

the churches, like the Catholic churches, the

United Church, and then the Anglican Church.

They were in partnership to run these schools.

But if you don't... If you're not on that healing

journey or have healed from it, you still believe

that those are bad places, hurtful places. I

lost my train of thought. So, Linda, you do a

lot of work with indigenous Christian leaders

and helping them heal from trauma. So can you

just explain to us a little bit, what does that

work? look like? What are you doing on a sort

of regular basis? So a lot of it is teaching.

Okay. And teaching through workshop presentations

to our guest speakers in different places. And

one of the things that we really are excited

about is bringing reconciliation between the

two people groups. Like I said, my husband's

family is from this area. And for the longest

time I had, like, I could not connect because

the two realities, the two worlds, my world and

his world, they're just miles apart. But now

there's so much that has happened since then.

A bridge has been made through reconciliation.

Like his home church is one of the churches that

sponsor us now. And actually, there's a team

from there that's going to my home community

to do a summer camp. This is going to be their

third summer. Third summer. So we do a lot of

teaching. What kind of topics are you teaching

on? It's trauma, loss and grief, and any personal

experiences, abuse. We help. We talk about those.

And my husband, Rick, he mentors a lot of Indigenous

men. Another thing we talk about in healing from

trauma is that you need to have a relationship

that is consistent over a period of time to help

begin to be part of a healing in an Indigenous

person, befriend an Indigenous person. Rick says

that if every person In society, in Canada, befriended

an Indigenous person, every one of you guys,

befriended an Indigenous person, the face of

society would look different today. Because there

would be so much understanding. It creates empathy

when you get to know an Indigenous person. There's

empathy that begins to happen and you just begin

to have a heart. for my people and I want things

to change. So teaching on abuse issues, one of

the models that we use in our presentations is

that we... We have four stages that we talked

about. First stage is what we call reactionary

stage. And at this stage, it's more like you

reacting to the pain that you've carried. It

doesn't matter how far back, 20 years, 30 years,

maybe you were abused, whoever, you know? And

there's a lot of anger. And to cope with that,

there's a lot of addiction and a lot of depression

and suicide. Second stage is understand what

happened to you. Begin to name what happened.

You know, what emotions do you still carry? Anger,

shame, you know, anxiety. And then third is beginning

to know how you can move on. And when you get

to this stage, you have a heart for other people.

Your heart begins to... heal and open up for

other people rather than being so focused on

the present. My pain, just getting through each

day, day to day reaction to life. You're not

even living in some ways. And then the fourth

stage is you're at the place where you believe,

you are created in the image of God, but we live

in a fallen world. And people will still disappoint

you. People will abandon you. People will hurt

you. But that doesn't change who God is. God

is still God. And that's who we need to believe

because His promises is... One of His promises

that is long -standing right from the Old Testament

to the New Testament to this day is that I will

never leave you nor forsake you. For me, that's

one of the promises that anchors me. That's one

of my anchors. But He will never, never leave

us and forsake me. That's His promise. Right?

From the Old Testament, still the same. Yeah,

for sure. So those that kind of teaching. Yeah.

Oh, that's great. Bring to my people. Yeah. Yeah.

And how do you incorporate like faith or spirituality

into those teachings? We just basically outright

call it like biblical counseling, biblical presentations.

But I do use other like approaches. theories,

other ways of counseling, because anytime there's

pain or trauma that happens to us, I believe

that we're affected holistically. The way our

thinking process gets affected, our emotional

capacity is affected, our spirit and our body.

Our pain, our body carries our pain, trauma.

We carry our trauma in our... bodies, so healing

needs to be holistic as well, to address the

four areas. So in those places I use different

models or theories, however I see that fits to

the needs of my people. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's

great. So why do you think that it's important

for Canadian Christians specifically to sort

of better understand indigenous people in Canada

and indigenous history? For better relationships.

We have to learn to get along. And to recognize

there's two people groups in this country that

we call Canada. The country that we call Canada.

Yes. Canada on Turtle Island. Yes. What do you

mean by two people groups? Non -Indigenous and

Indigenous. Okay, I see. I was like, because

Canada has so many people groups, but I see what

you're saying. Non -Indigenous and Indigenous.

We need to get along. There's so much conflict

right now between the two. And get to know each

other. Because when we get to know each other,

there's empathy and that changes the way we see

each other. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I think

for me a big something that I'm just very passionate

about is like if we're calling ourselves Christians

and if we're being truly what God and Jesus called

us to be was to love our neighbor, you know,

to be compassionate, to be merciful. Yeah. to

speak up for the oppressed, to seek justice,

all that stuff, then this is part of that calling,

right? To recognize what has happened recently

in our recent history as Canadians and say, okay,

maybe I didn't personally play a part in this,

but if I'm calling myself Christian, If I'm calling

myself a Christian, I need to understand the

weight that that carries for Indigenous people

and the harm that has been caused by a group

that I'm a part of, even if I didn't do it personally.

And I know that that's a really big journey for

people to go on. And I think there can be a lot

of shame and guilt when you start that journey.

And I mean, my hope is even as I have conversations

with friends or people or you, like the church,

my hope is that people don't feel guilt and shame.

I think we should feel deep sadness and deep

grief about what's happened. But to be reminded

that, yes, this is a high calling. As Canadians

and Christians, we should be pursuing reconciliation

and that there's hope. There's a lot of hope

in the God we believe in. you know, the message

of the gospel is one of reconciliation and hope

and healing and death to life. So God is big

enough to heal this broken relationship. Are

you willing to go on it and to also bring healing

to a people group that is hurting and people

are still hurting from it? You know, they don't

trust the church. They don't trust the name,

the title Christian. So yeah, I just want Canadian

Christians to know that there is hope, but to

start that journey, whether it's by reading one

story about a residential school survivor and

understanding the impact that had on that child

who's now an elder in our community, right? Start

that journey of empathy and understanding. Yeah,

for sure. Can I just make an additional comment?

Another thing that's happened to my people group

is that, so healing from trauma, you need a context.

You need a context where that's very important

to heal in a good way from a traumatic experience.

But we as indigenous people today, many times

we don't have the family context because of so

many things like We have the intergenerational

trauma from residential schools. And one of the

main things that we lost from that experience

is good parenting skills. Right. Learning, like

having good families. So to heal from trauma,

you need a good family setting, good support,

good cultural context, you know, traditions that

bring support to as you journey in your pain.

Traditions and customs, whatever they are, we

don't even have that. We don't have that. So

that's another challenge we have as we're trying

to heal from years of traumatic experiences.

But I think what I wanted to say is that This

is one of the ways that the church could bring

support to us, by being that community for us.

A church community, whether having, do you call

them life groups? Yeah, the small groups that

we have. Those kinds of contexts, like places

of support, because we don't have those. And

I always encourage that in our workshops. When

we're invited by churches, I often encourage

them, maybe it's you as a church that needs to

start that grief support group. addictions support

groups, because we need that. Yeah, just some

of those really practical resources, right? Practical

things we can do. Yeah, and the ways that we

just like do all of life together, right? Like

in the life groups, we get to study the Bible,

but we also share meals together and we help

each other through the hard times and we celebrate

together. And yeah, just doing all of those things.

Providing it a kind of family. Yeah. Yeah, that's

super important for sure So if folks are listening

and they're sort of intrigued and saying okay

now what what I want to learn more What what

are some things that you might recommend? Like

really practically one of the books I always

recommend is 21 things you May Not Know About

the Indian Act. And it's by author Bob Joseph.

He has a follow -up book called Indigenous Relations.

And I actually can't find my other copy. I was

trying to find it this morning. This is the sequel,

but the first one is 21 Things You May Not Know

About the Indian Act. And it's very reader -friendly.

If you want to get the big picture of this journey

that Indigenous people have been on in our country

and why they are where they are today, I really

recommend that because the Indian Act impacted

so much about our people and how they function.

And of course, it goes back to colonization.

So there's lots of good books. First Nations

101, I have there. Unsettling Truths. Unsettling

truth is another good one more about the document

doctrine of discovery And then mom you wanted

to speak to a little more like personal stories

Yeah, I was I think for me what I would like

to say to the people is that Be interested in

us and our stories There's so many books out

there right now and different bookstores people

writing their biographies and actually as part

of my healing over the last like 40 years you

know that's how I that those were one that that

was one of the things I did as part of my healing

is read these stories about other indigenous

people how they began to find healing it helped

me understand Like reading biographies will help

you understand what it's like inside that indigenous

person to go through that. And hopefully it'll

bring more empathy, understanding. So biographies

of writers, like you can go to I think any...

in the Go store. Google? Type in, you'll get

a big list. There's sections, so start small.

And also, just being open and interested. I often

say about Rachelle and her family, her boys,

on Is It Every Child Matters? She has her sons

dressed in these t -shirts, and off they go to

school. And I often say, In that small way, and

as part of who you are, how you live out your

life, you're sending a message that this is part

of our history in Canada. And it's real. It's

a reality. And it will affect us. And part of

what we learned in history classes and our studies

is that It's the people that have the victory

over the land or over country that get to tell

their story. But the one that has been defeated,

they don't get a chance to tell their story.

And I see ourselves as a nation that it's that

people group that never got to tell the story,

their story, their side of the story. And we

are just finally starting to do that. And so

I would say believe our stories. Believe our

stories that it did happen. I mean, that's what

I ask. Yeah, no, that's really good because you

said earlier that your husband said you have

every... sort of non -indigenous person in Canada

had an indigenous friend how that would sort

of change things and I think that that's that's

a really good point a really good place to start,

but for folks who feel really intimidated by

that, I think, yeah, some of these biographies

are an equally good place to start. And I think

because I was saying to you earlier, like we

don't, it's like be a friend, but where, who,

to who? Where are the Indigenous people? When

you live in a place like, I found this when I

moved down here to Toronto, I was like, I don't,

we're so diverse, which is beautiful. And I'm

like, I don't know who, I don't see any Indigenous

people. Unless maybe you go downtown Toronto,

like there are, um, you know, you might be able

to tell, but, um, you know, they're on the reserves

typically. And if they're not, they're very integrated

into, um, they just blend in a little bit. Sure.

And how do we even cross that bridge to friendship?

Like you can't just walk on the street and be

like, Hey, let's be friends now. Like there's

just not a high, a large population of Indigenous

people in our communities. And so I was just

saying to you before that, like reading, picking

up a biography, saying, OK, maybe I can't attain

that in -person connection right now, but I'm

going to read a story about someone and I'm going

to believe it. And I really believe it will impact

you in a big way. Yeah. Thank you so much, ladies.

This has been a really good conversation. I so

appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability

because I know sharing parts of yourself like

this can be a really hard step, but I think also

something that is so important for us to hear

and to get to learn from and get your perspective.

So thank you for taking the time to do this.

Thank you, Kyla. Thank you so much for having

us. Yes, thank you so much. You're very welcome.

And for those who are listening, thank you for

sticking with us. Taking this time to sort of

reflect. I hope that in whatever you have heard

that you are able to take a piece of this and

and bring some healing forward whether you need

that healing for yourself or healing in our relationships

with indigenous folks in this country And we'll

see you again next week