Justice, Mercy and Forgiveness | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Justin.

And we are here to continue our conversation

about the Beatitudes, which is the section that

opens Jesus's sermon on the Mount, where he talks

about blessings and what it means to be blessed

and who are the kind of people that are blessed.

And today we are talking about the Beatitude

where Jesus says, Blessed are the merciful, for

they will be shown mercy. And that sounds very

nice. It doesn't feel true. Kyler, why does it

not feel true to you? Well, I mean, it feels

true maybe in like a grand sense, but very specifically,

like in the world, if I am a merciful person,

I am not always shown mercy. Yes, you get walked

over by other people. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think

that's... True. It's weird in the Sermon on the

Mount, Jesus does say things like you should

be willing to get walked over by other people.

So that is a consequence of trying to live this

way. If someone strikes you on the cheek, turn

the cheek, go the extra mile, all that stuff.

But in this case, I think it's who is the one

who's going to show you mercy is the key question.

Yes, that's fair. Maybe we're not talking about

my random neighbor who hates me. No, I mean we're

in church, so we all know the answer is Jesus.

Yeah. Okay, so but the word mercy seems to be

pretty central to this phrase. Yes. It shows

up a couple of times at least. So what do we

mean by the word mercy? Well, what do you think

it means? They're supposed to be more than to

the two of us now, so now I want to make sure

that we're not just interviewing me. Right. This

is fair. Because you've got good stuff, man.

Yeah. I mean, I think... Oh, here she is. Yes.

Welcome, Melissa. Please come on in and have

a seat. I'm so sorry. That's okay. No, church...

We're live right now. We're live right now. Church

ended early today because there was no communion.

So it's all right. I didn't tell you to show

up early. And now we are extending mercy. To

you. Yeah. Is that mercy? Yeah, we're extending

mercy, which I'm going to need later because

I'm going to probably hit your car in the parking

lot later. I don't know. Yes. Oh, yeah, that

too. Mercy. We were just talking about what that

is. Yes. Mercy. Not just not just something that

Uncle Jesse says from Full House and Elvis. OK,

great. Mercy. Yes. So welcome, Melissa. Thank

you so much. And. Thank you for extending your

mercy to me today. I really appreciate it. Yeah.

So the question we were just looking at, what

is mercy? And I think. So I'm maybe going to

get this wrong, but the childhood Veggie Tales

version of me makes this distinction between

mercy and grace, where grace is getting a thing

that you don't deserve. And mercy is not getting

a thing that you do deserve. Yeah, where that

thing that you deserve is bad. Yeah, my boss

doesn't show me mercy when they don't pay me.

Right. Yes. No, that's no. No, I deserve some

sort of a punishment, but I don't get it. And

therefore, this is mercy. That is what Veggie

Tales has taught me, folks. Now, does this hold

up in the real world? Is that like, Melissa,

when you think of mercy, what do you think of?

Well, when I think of mercy, I do think about

God first. However, I agree that in the real

world, like, it can be kind of hard to not only

extend that mercy, but to also receive that mercy,

because we have responsibilities. If at work

I mess up, usually my manager will not give me

mercy. She will, you know, address me the way

that in a workplace setting that I should be

addressed. Even though sometimes it would be

nice to have that mercy. But yeah. Yeah. I mean,

the thing that makes mercy difficult in the real

world, quote unquote, is that we have a whole

system built on justice. Right. Right. The whole

system where if if we just sort of let people

off. Yeah. Then sort of the guardrails for our

society start falling away and we could have

chaos. Right. So it's like a really scary thing

to give mercy. Right. You're putting yourself.

I mean, if we're talking about on a societal

level, you're putting society at risk by showing

lots of mercy. Mercy is risky. It's super risky,

right? Because who knows, people could abuse

it, right? People would be like, well, I guess

if mercy is going to be shown that I can just

commit crimes and do what I want and trust that

people are going to be nice. So it's a nerve

wracking sort of thing. But what Jesus is talking

about in the Beatitudes is this kind of upside

down kingdom idea. Right? It's not supposed to

work now. Right. It's the way God's kingdom works.

And he's asking his followers to live in the

way that that kingdom will be or that that kingdom

is. So you're going to have to live countercultural.

You're going to make yourself vulnerable as a

Christian by showing mercy to people. But that's

what Jesus did. Right. Right. Jesus was nailed

to a cross. He's saying forgive them. Yeah, but

they don't know what they're doing Yeah, right.

He puts himself in the most vulnerable position

to show mercy and the prize for that Attitude

is God shows you mercy, right? At the end which

again, like you said from veggie tells we don't

serve. Yes Yeah, I mean um so one of the things

that we said initially at the beginning is like

blessed are the merciful for they will be shown

mercy doesn't feel true if we just look at it

in terms of like human relationships like if

i'm a merciful person that doesn't guarantee

that other people will be showing me mercy? Right.

And I think that's a reason why it's really hard

to show mercy as well, because even if we show

mercy to other people, it's not guaranteed that

they will show mercy back to us. However, I feel

that as Christians, we have to constantly look

to Jesus because, you know, the idea is that

if God gave us mercy, then we should be merciful

to other people as well. and then we think about

well if if God gave me the same amount of mercy

that I gave to other people well then then I'm

not receiving a lot of mercy because then I don't

actually give a lot of mercy to people and it's

kind of really scary to think that so I guess

if we put it up to that standard it's like actually

we should constantly be giving as much mercy

as we can because we never want that like to

end for us from God. Right. And maybe it's through

us that other people can experience mercy and

that might be merciful to others as well. But

it's definitely hard. And just like a lot of

the Beatitudes, it requires a lot of surrendering

to God, a lot of sacrifice as well. Totally.

I think that's really important because what

you're really I mean, because God is I hate to

say that I hate this phrase, but you know, God

is also a God of justice. Right. So it's not

like God's ignoring. Sure. Injustices and oppression

and persecution. There's lots of that in the

Bible. But what you're doing by extending mercy

to others is that you're trusting God with the

justice. Right. Right. And you're not putting

it upon yourself to exact these kinds of punishments

for yourself. You're saying, I'm a Christian.

I know this world is God's. He will take care

of it. And therefore I don't need to demand the

justice that I normally would if I didn't trust

in God to take care of that for me. Yeah, and

then that makes me think about, like, when we're

in a position where we are choosing the kind

of people that we want to be merciful to and

the kind of people that we don't want to be merciful

to, we're, like, putting ourselves in this position

of, like, judgment, where we're like, this type

of person or this particular person is worthy

of mercy, and this person is not worthy of mercy,

but Jesus says, no, just extend mercy to everyone

and, like, I'll sort it out later. Right? Yes,

something like that. Yeah, I think I mean there's

a great So there's a theologian who I like called

Karl Barth I use this guy from Switzerland from

the 20th century, but he one of the things he

says is that Jesus or God takes on the role of

judge, not just to absolve us of our sins, but

also to sort of let us off the hook for having

to judge others ourselves. Right. Yeah. Right.

Like we go around in the world and we feel like

we need to weigh in on everything and think this

person good, this person bad. We're making judgments

about people. And Bart says, actually, Jesus

lets us off the hook of that responsibility.

Right. That's what frees us to love people indiscriminately.

Right. and like lets us off the hook feels like

a nice way of saying that whereas like i would

say as like god says like just don't do it just

like don't judge the people yeah it's like you

know like lets us off the hook feels like oh

i should feel like a weight about this but sometimes

i mean sometimes we do feel a weight about it

well because we want to take it back yeah like

it feels i mean as with all things with christianity

when giving up sin feels like we're giving up

something. Yes. And really we're being freed

from something. Totally. So it feels hard to

be like, I should be able to look at someone

and say a judgment about them. Right. Someone's

wrong to me. I should be like, you are bad. Right.

And Jesus is like, no, no, I'll do that. Right.

Now you can just love them. Right. And I think

it's also the idea that if we as humans judge

other humans, it's like, I feel like we're just

going... Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. No, you sounded

wise when you said that. Oh, thank you. Thank

you. I feel that we're going to get it wrong,

you know? It's like, how do you know if we're

making the right judgment? That's something that

I feel like if you were a judge in the judicial

system, we already know that there's so many

times when we're judges, they get it wrong, right?

And I think it does help to know that, like...

That's not our job. That's not the task that

God has given us. The task that God has given

us is actually just to love people, which it

might not feel easier. But listening to Justin

speak, actually loving other people is easier

than maybe putting judgment on other people,

because what if you do get it wrong? Right. And

there's so many people affected by it as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there's a great line in scripture.

Oh, I can't remember where it is. where it says

Jesus entrusted himself to the one who judges

justly. Mm. OK. Right? Like Jesus lived his life

allowing God to be the judge of everything. Right.

Right. He's not out there trying to get people's

praise and adoration. She says, I'm going to

give my whole life to God. He'll be the judge

of my life. Right. Right. And that freed him

in some ways to do radical stuff like totally

hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors

and all that stuff and not worry what people

were saying. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So then

I feel like we've sort of said, okay, so being

merciful means not judging. It means extending

love. But I'm wondering then what the sort of

positive side of it, what it does look like.

And so I have this cool book that we briefly

mentioned last week by a guy called Dietrich

Bonhoeffer called The Cost of Discipleship. And

so in this book, he does a lot of things. But

one of the things that he does is breaks down

the Sermon on the Mount. And when he talks about

the people who are merciful, this is what Mr.

Bonhoeffer has to say. The merciful have an irresistible

love for the downtrodden, the sick, the wretched,

the wronged, the outcast, and all who are tortured

with anxiety. They go out and seek all who are

enmeshed in the toils of sin and guilt. No distress

is too great, no sin too appalling for their

pity. Mm. Right? So good. Just doing the white

person version of Amen. Yeah. So this, according

to Bonhoeffer, is what the merciful do. They

go out, they have an irresistible love. Like,

let's just talk about that for a second. An irresistible

love. Like, what does that mean? Jesus shaped.

Right? Yeah. You're being compelled by Jesus,

right, to do these things. I also think it's

like this kind of freely given love to people,

right? The downtrodden and the oppressed. We

often think of them as these poor victims and

stuff like that. But I mean, there's all sorts

of reasons people use for not being merciful

to people. Oh, they're just going to spend this

money on drugs or they're just going to do this

or they need to go get a job really. Is me buying

them a McDonald's breakfast really going to change

that much in their lives? Jesus is like, yeah,

don't worry about that. You know, your job is

to love these people indiscriminately. Yeah.

Right. I also think that when you show mercy,

like even just once that can have such a huge

positive impact in a person's life. If you look

at a young person who maybe they messed up, maybe

they did something they shouldn't have done.

Right. And if you approach them with. Punishment

and judgment and anger. What message are you

sending them? So they're going to grow up their

whole life being like well This is how the world

works. We punish we judge And it's kind of like

in a way you're confirming confirming like labeling

theory like oh i'm a bad person I deserve to

be judged. Well, then i'm just going to continue

living like this, right? However, if you show

a young person or just anyone like mercy um especially

that child or teenager they're gonna learn like

actually there's another way to live life where

i don't have to think the world that's so cold

and hardened it can be but i can make the choice

to be merciful right that person was merciful

to me so i'm going to be merciful to someone

else and i'm just going to do good because i'm

not you know this bad person i'm someone who

can receive good things as well and i think that

is a better way to live life in a way i know

a lot of people they won't agree with that I

think sometimes you see people do things on the

news, young people, you know, like they deserve

to be punished, they deserve to be locked away.

However, it's like, well, then what kind of world

are we kind of setting up? Not to say that we

shouldn't have justice, but more so that I think

there needs to be a lot more mercy, especially

towards people who are, like the book said, you

know, they have a lot of anxiety, a lot of...

Insecurities a lot of things happening and maybe

that can be young people or just anyone Yeah,

I mean It feels really complicated when we try

to bring it to this like macro like societal

level Yeah, right to try and say okay our justice

System should be a system of mercy. Yeah, I don't

really want to jump in that. Yeah but I also

don't think that that's necessarily what Jesus

had in mind. I don't know. Well, I mean, it is

going to be the polity of the new kingdom. Yeah.

Right. So we're not there yet. Yeah. Right. So

a lot of these rules are ways of dealing with

the fact that we're still in a sinful world.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I so I don't I guess my

point was we don't need to make a society built

on mercy in order to like follow this command

as followers of Jesus. Yeah. Right? Like in our

personal relationships, we can be merciful people

even while living in a society that's not built

on mercy. Yeah. I mean, you also need to be merciful

to, I don't know, victims of oppression, right?

You can't put them in a position to be constantly

abused by others. I mean, the thing is, mercy

is not pretending that a wrong hasn't happened

or excusing it. Right. Right. So it's not like

you're saying I'm being merciful to you by Saying

it doesn't really matter that you right punch

me in the face or something like that. It does

matter Sure, right and and even the very fact

of me forgiving you is an acknowledgement that

you have wronged me, right? Even though I'm not

taking the the demands of punishment. Yeah So

I want to be clear on that too, right? So like

if you've been victimized or you're oppressed

or persecuted in some way It's not like Jesus

is saying just pretend like that never happened

and now it's like on you to know you're saying

this was wrong Yeah, this was wrong. I mean in

the same way that god says you're a sinner, right?

Right. It's not like you're great. You're a sinner.

I'm dying for you. Yeah, you know i'm i'm i'm

showing mercy to you because you need mercy.

Yeah You know, yeah Yeah, so then I feel like

that's a really important angle to sort of tease

out here is like this connection between mercy

and forgiveness and forgiveness and like letting

something go or like how justice like fits into

all of that, because yeah, it mercy. Obviously,

we are called to mercy. We are like God is a

merciful God. God is also a just God, as we said.

But yeah, so it feels like like forgiveness is

sort of the name of the game. Like that's just

like part and parcel of following the way of

Jesus. That doesn't make it easy, obviously.

And. No, I mean look at the name of this book

the cost the cost of deception, right? Yeah um,

and I think that forgiveness Yeah, what what

I guess what does forgiveness look like if it

doesn't look like Letting it go, right? How do

we both name? This is wrong. Yeah and Offer forgiveness,

right? Like there's a whole boundary setting

that happens in there. Well, you're going to

teach us about forgiveness in your sermon of

the Lord's Prayer in a couple of weeks. But yeah,

I mean, I don't think forgiveness or showing

mercy means that you, again, pretend that there

hasn't been a rupture in relationship, right?

This is why Christians forgive or show mercy

in faith. That it's God who will bring reconciliation.

There's a really good book about this that a

friend of mine wrote called A Shared Mercy that

talks about forbearance as a key category. You're

kind of waiting expectantly in hope. So that

means like if I forgive someone, let's say someone

seriously wronged me, like in an illegal way.

It doesn't mean I'm forgiving you and now we

can be friends again and you're in my life and

everything's the way it was. No, sometimes you

have to create boundaries and distance, but you're

forgiving them in the hopes that God will bring

about a reconciliation that you can't bring about

on your own. Yeah. I feel like that's interesting

because when I think about forgiveness, I understand

like sometimes we have to be very careful to

like not, I guess, ignore the accountability

that that person should take. But then I wonder

like, If you're still holding on to something,

is that still forgiveness? Because I've always

looked at forgiveness as not something you do

for someone else. You do it for yourself kind

of thing. Because if you're just holding on to

that anger all the time and it's like just got

to be a point where you're like, you're kind

of just like hurting yourself now. So I kind

of think of forgiveness as like you have to do

the work of kind of like setting yourself free

as well. And then I guess. I guess sometimes

I think about, obviously, people, they do things

that aren't great to us. They do things that

are really, really terrible to other people.

And I can say right now that it would be really,

really hard for me to offer forgiveness to someone

if they did something super terrible to me. But

does Jesus have limits on his forgiveness? I

kind of think about that because. you know, because

then as Christians, we can ask, well, how many

more times am I going to mess up before Jesus

is like, actually, I'm setting the boundary and

you keep messing up and I'm not going to forgive

you anymore. That's like a nightmare to me. Right.

And I think Jesus is asking for a tall order,

but it's not something he didn't do. He forgave

people. Right. Right. He keep the people like

when they put them on the cross and he was suffering.

one of the worst deaths that anyone could ever

suffer. He still said, Father, forgive them.

And I'm like, I don't think I would have had

the strength to do that. But then I wonder if

maybe through Jesus, that is something we have,

because you have stories of people who, you know,

their family member was killed. And then in court,

they say, I asked you to forgive the person who

killed my loved one. Right. How much faith does

that take? Right. How much of supernatural faith?

Exactly. But you're crossing so many boundaries.

I guess it's just. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look what

Jesus said right after Father, forgive them.

Right. He says, but God into your hands, I commit

my spirit. Right. So he's saying, I'm entrusting

myself to you. I'm entrusting the execution of

justice to you. And so I can forgive these people.

Right. And because that forgiveness. I mean,

this is the whole point of this. The father forgives

our sins as we forgive those who sin against

us. Right. God has extended this mercy to us.

So now we can forgive others. Yeah. Right. And

there's also the sort of the parable that Jesus

tells about the guy who owed bajillions of dollars

and had it forgiven. But then, you know, called

someone out on their fifty dollar debt or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about that parable,

too, like when we were talking earlier. Yeah.

So there's the story of a dude who owes. His

master like, yeah, let's say a million dollars,

a bunch of money. And his master forgives him.

And then he goes out and yeah, gets mad at somebody

else who owes him like 10 bucks. Yeah. And Jesus's

whole point of this is like, don't be like this

dude. Yeah. Right. Like you have received so

much mercy. Yeah. Therefore, go and show it to

others. I forgave you your debt so you could

go and forgive other people's debts. Yeah. You

know. Yeah. And I think it's important to point

out at this sort of intersection that like we

don't do that alone. No. Right. Like God forgave

us our debts, enabling us to forgive other people's

debts. It's so like to just try and go out and

do it in my own strength is maybe impossible.

It definitely is impossible. Right. But to do

it with the spirit of dependence on God, with

this spirit of, yeah, just trusting and praying

and saying, God help me forgive, right? Like

that's what makes it possible. I think it's also

important to kind of look at like, you know,

why you're forgiving someone, because if you're

forgiving someone, because you're just like,

well, if I forgive this person, then God will

forgive me. Or the idea of like, oh, if I forgive

this person, then God's going to make sure that

something terrible happens to them, but then

it's not out of my hands. I'm going to randomly

a Lamborghini is going to be in my front yard

because I forgave this person. I guess it's kind

of like sometimes you're going to have to show

mercy and you're not going to receive anything

back because I mean, God gives us mercy, but

it's not like we're giving him, you know, something

that he doesn't already have. Right. So I think

it's just that you just have to be so selfless

and so dependent on God. to be in that space.

And he does ask us of that. Right. Yeah. Totally.

So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Jesus says, blessed

are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

So we've talked about this idea of mercy. This

is how it connects to forgiveness and a bit about

how it connects to justice, I think. So. Why,

like what is it about mercy that we think makes

it one of the sort of primary principles of the

kingdom of God? Like why, why mercy? Why not

something else? I guess, that's the first thing

I think of is that, you know, Jesus says mercy

and that's specifically one of the Beatitudes

because, well, why did Jesus come to the earth,

right? To show mercy to give us a way so that

we can be reconciled to the Father. Because I

think just every single person right now who

has lived and will live needs mercy from God.

And I guess it just, yeah, you put it in that

context. It's like, yeah, why wouldn't Jesus

mention that? Because that's the thing that we

need, right? Yeah. I mean, you think about everybody

in the kingdom of heaven, everybody in the church.

Yeah. Has been shown mercy by God and has needed

mercy from God. Yep, right. So it's it's the

currency Yeah of the kingdom right to show mercy

It's very Jesus centric, right? It's this is

the way Jesus did stuff. Yeah the king of this

thing Yeah, we should do it too. Yeah. Yeah,

it's the expectations of citizenship in the kingdom

of heaven. Mm -hmm And it's interesting like

in I guess in Matthew's gospel in particular,

but probably in all of them the word mercy is

like used pretty frequently and it's often used

in the context of like somebody asking Jesus

for something usually like physical healing like

there's a dude on the side of the road who's

like begging for money and then Jesus walks by

and he's like Jesus have mercy on me and I guess

what that reminds me is that and and then Jesus

has this interaction and like heals him right

and so that sort of shows me like mercy has this

spiritual emotional component to it, but it also

has a very Practical tangible component like

this man is not the same from that moment on

like he and so in this particular case I think

he's healed from blindness and is able to like

go out like live his life But like in all kinds

of cases, there's something concrete That like

happens as an expression of mercy. I I think

that's interesting I don't think we touched upon

it yet, but it's like the fact that like yes,

like mercy is given to us by God and we should

give that mercy to other people but People do

have to kind of like ask for that mercy just

as we go to God and we ask for his mercy as well

We ask for his forgiveness. So it's kind of like

in a way you know, just something that is kind

of a concrete and tangible is just If someone's

coming to you and they're saying, like, I'm really

sorry, you know, no matter how hard it is, that

is the opportunity for us to show that mercy,

because now we have that like tangible like signal

that's like, OK, well, this is that opportunity

now. Right. Right. I wonder, like, if that person,

he never went to Jesus and was like, Jesus have

mercy on me. Right. If he was just like, Jesus

will come to me. It's fine. He knows I'm here.

Right. And it's like Jesus is like. There's many

people that are here. I'm sure um, so I mean,

maybe Jesus still would have healed him But I

think it's just like the fact that he took that

step to be like Jesus heal me Yeah, yeah Yeah,

it's like the defensiveness of offering forgiveness

to someone without specifying What they did?

You know like if I was having a fight with my

spouse or something like that and and I just

all of a sudden said I forgive you Right. That's

not going to end well for me, right? Because

we haven't established what the breakdown in

the relationship was. So there is a part where

like the person needs to recognize their need

also. But even if not, I think Jesus is, you

know, he says, forgive them. They don't know

what they're doing. Right. Right. But that doesn't,

that's not going to bring the reconciliation

without their also acknowledgement of. I receive

that from you, Jesus, as well. Yeah, yeah, totally.

So this is for anyone who says being a Christian

is easy It's not easy being a Christian, but

it's worth it and it's the truth. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah I mean Jesus did say my yoke is easy and

my burden is light, but that's true Only if you

let him do all the stuff, which is hard. Yeah,

another oxymoron. Yeah It's all very easy if

we can let go We cannot let go And therefore,

it's hard. We're in this constant push and pull.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have this. No, never

mind. Yeah. Sorry. I was thinking about the sermon

from today that we're not talking about. So we

could talk about it. Yeah. So then. Mercy. Yeah,

it's something that people ask us for, but even

when they don't ask us for it, we can. Extend

it it just leads to a different kind of relationship

in that case. Yeah So Practically, yeah, what

does it look like? To extend mercy to someone

like the process of forgiveness Which is I think

a bit different than mercy, but it's included

in the concept of mercy like the practice of

forgiveness Has always felt a little bit Beyond

Grasp for me because it's like It's a thing that

happens in my words that may or may not happen

in my actions Right, and I think mercy can be

the same way we can say I can say oh Melissa

I'm being merciful towards you, but then actually

like I'm just gonna stay over here and secretly

still hate you a little bit or something I don't

know. I don't I hate one of you, but I'm not

gonna tell you Good I babysat your gecko. I know

my gecko Shout out to tube my son's gecko Yeah,

so mercy what does it look like I sorry no no

good. I guess it's just I feel like the way that

we practically extend mercy looks different depending

on the person. If it's like you're this like

three year old child who dropped your phone by

accident and now the screen shattered, like you're

going to be really pissed off. Right. Yeah. But

it's like, well, what can you do to this three

year old child? They don't know they messed up.

So you gave your phone to a three year old. Yeah.

So maybe that's an actual consequences of your

actions. But in that case, you are just like,

OK, like you extend that mercy versus like if

it's your an older person in your family, right?

Your parent or someone who maybe physically abused

you, right? How do you go through the process

of showing forgiveness and mercy to that person?

I guess. I don't know. It's just that I had nothing

to add. That's all I had to say. Just yeah, it

looks different in each relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

But also there's the like to get back to your

concrete stuff. I mean. historically acts of

mercy, at least in the church, is also giving

to the poor, looking at someone. There's that

great line where Jesus, oh, and Jesus is talking

to the rich young man and it says, Jesus looked

at him and loved him. You're supposed to see

your fellow human being and love them, have mercy

on them. Don't be like, you made your bed, now

lie in it. Yeah, you made some bad choices. Maybe

you got hooked on smack or you lost your job

or whatever But you don't deserve to be living

on the street, right? You know, I'm gonna show

mercy. I'm gonna help you all that kind of stuff

where you could theoretically just Be on your

merry way and ignore that stuff. But Jesus is

saying I didn't do that. So you should do the

same, right? Yeah, and we really made our bed

as sinners, right? We rebelled against the Holy

God who created us. Yeah I mean, we deserved

all of all of whatever we got for that. And God's

like, no, I'm going to extend mercy to you guys.

I'm sending you my son. Right. Right. Yeah. So

it I mean, it goes back to that that Bonhoeffer

line, that irresistible love. Yeah. Right. It's

yeah. Mercy just is love. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

it's at the risk of being the most stereotypical.

21st century Christian preacher, it's like in

The Matrix, you know, when Neo sees all the dots

and stuff. I can't remember. But it's like we

need to have like Neo lenses to see people as

people who are beloved by God, whom God is longing

to be reconciled with no matter the evils they

do, either to us or to others. That is supernaturally

difficult, right? I mean, that is really, really

hard to do. But again, this is something that

Jesus gives to us as a gift. He helps us to see

people that way. Where everything inside of us

is saying, dehumanize that person. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. Jesus rehumanizes them. So I guess

it's kind of like... You have to change your

whole like the whole way that you kind of like

present yourself in the world and the whole way

that you carry yourself and talk to people. And

I think it does require maybe a changing of looking

at different, you know, social issues and looking

at different things in the world. There's, for

example, homelessness and house population. There's

people, you know, like we said, he'll say, why

should we give them affordable housing? Why should

we do this? Why should we do that? Right. And

because. They're like, it doesn't benefit me.

I worked so hard to get here. And then Mercy

is having to be like, well, actually, even if

that person did whatever and that's why they're

there, they still deserve to have a shelter.

They still deserve to have food and water. Or

maybe they don't deserve it, but we're obligated

to give it to them as Christ followers. Like

the answer to any of the whys. Why should I help

this person? Why should we do this good thing?

Whatever. The answer is always because they are

a person loved by God. Full stop. And I've already

received infinite blessings from God, right?

So for me to withhold that from someone else

contradicts my own situation. Yeah, totally.

And I think Especially when we then put this

back in like a social context, those who are

merciful, who sort of have this Christ -like

posture, are not always going to be well -received

by the world. You know, as we keep hinting towards

the end of these Beatitudes, where it's, you

know, blessed are those who are persecuted, right?

And I think... So there's another Bonhoeffer

quote that I want to read for you because he's

great Yeah, so he talks about, you know showing

mercy to all of these kinds of people And he

says the merciful are glad to incur reproach.

So they're glad that people are like hating on

them For this reason for they know that they

are blessed Yeah, blessed are the merciful for

they have the merciful for their Lord I like

that. I like that a lot. The Blessed or the Merciful,

because God is merciful. Yeah. God is the one

showing the mercy. So like, even if the people

out in the world are like, what are you doing?

Or even if the people in the world are like,

that's stupid. Yeah. We're not following them.

The other side of it, I mean, it's not just,

you know, when you see people, you see them as

beloved by God. Yeah. You're also kind of doing

it for God's sake, too. Like I'm loving others.

I'm showing mercy to them to glorify the God

who's already blessed me with mercy. Yeah. Right.

It's it's doing things unto God as well as to

others. Yeah. I also feel like, you know, now

that like we're Christians, kind of like what

Britt said last week about how now we can wear

those glasses and we kind of see things. And

now it's better. Now we like operate, you know,

in the Holy Spirit. Yeah. It's kind of like when

we don't show mercy, it's like the audacity that

you have to not show mercy when God is showing

you so much mercy right now. It's like how how

do you live with yourself? It's like that kind

of idea. Right. And whenever I've been offered

opportunity to show mercy and I haven't afterwards,

I'm like, oh my gosh, that wasn't a proud moment

of mine. Right. And I think you do feel that

conviction because you know that how, who do

I think I am that I didn't show mercy to this

person when literally right now God is showing

me mercy. Yeah. Again, just to protect against

the implication for those thinking I have to

be a doormat to everyone as a result of this,

like, There's wisdom that's called for. These

aren't black and white rules. The question is,

God, what does it mean for me to be merciful

in this situation? It's not the same for everyone.

I always think back when there was this mass

shooting in Amish country in Pennsylvania and

a bunch of the Amish folk were like, we forgive

the killer. That doesn't mean that everybody

has to do that exact thing from now on that's

a victim of that kind of crime. But it doesn't

mean you're supposed to ask God, what is my responsibility

here? Right. Right. What does it mean for me

to be a citizen of the kingdom in this way at

this time in this particular circumstance? Right.

I know I'm going to have to show mercy, but I

don't know what that looks like. Yeah. So I'm

going to need you to show me what that is. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. There is a very real sense in which

showing mercy can also be pursuing. Justice.

Yeah at the same time. I mean Bonhoeffer is uh,

you know, he's famous for a couple things But

one of them is being involved in a plot to assassinate

hitler, right? Right. So um So it's not like

he was saying like walk all over me, right? Right.

He was he was doing something He didn't even

think that was a good thing. Well, I can go into

this much sure but um But yeah, I mean, his whole

point was you got to follow Christ in these things.

What is Christ asking me to do? What is the command

of Christ in this? If you do that, you will show

mercy. You will exhibit all these blessings and

the beatitudes in the way that it befits the

circumstance. Yeah. I also feel like the doormat

thing it's interesting because I think when you're

reading the Beatitudes it kind of might feel

like okay so I just have to let everyone be like

I just have to be super meek super quiet super

submissive no one can everyone could do whatever

they want to me and I just have to be okay with

it however I think that when you're displaying

mercy or any of the characteristics that are

mentioned in the Beatitudes you have to make

an active choice. Like you do have control in

that situation to be like, I cannot show you

mercy if I don't want to. However, I'm making

the active choice of showing you mercy. And so

there is this aspect of you're still kind of

like in control. I mean, as in control as we

can be. And kind of like with that in mind, it's

like, I guess maybe you're not like a doormat

because you're kind of just thinking like, I

could choose something else, but I'm choosing

this. And it's not being forced upon me to be

merciful. I'm choosing to do this for someone

else. Totally. Yeah, I think the piece that stands

out to me from what you were just saying, Justin,

is like that in all things, we're like following

Christ in this. And so like. Yeah, these aren't

as you said hard and fast rules and and they

aren't even like fleshed out examples Mm -hmm.

Yeah, right. There's not if this then this yep,

right so Jesus is the example like all of the

Beatitudes the poor in spirit the merciful the

meek the morning like this is who Jesus was Yeah,

and so our call is to like emulate Jesus in our

own lives And so then our orientation is not

towards mercy as an abstract concept. Yes. Yes.

Our orientation is towards Christ. Absolutely.

Yeah. I think that's definitely right. I mean,

that's what Jesus did, right? He was like, you

know, all this stuff I'm doing, I'm not just

making this up. I'm doing what my father's telling

me to do. Right. Right. I'm not winging it. I'm

not applying a calculus. The father's like, hey,

you should probably raise Lazarus. Okay. Sorry,

I don't want to get into the speculative area

of how the Trinity talks to each other, but,

you know, hey, what's up? You should go and heal

theirs. That would be cool. Yeah. Yeah. So following

Jesus in all the things, in our attitudes, in

our actions, in our figuring out what it looks

like to be faithful in any given relationship

or situation, ask Jesus. And I think also like

just practically as well I think Like unfortunately

as humans we do go through a lot of things and

people do hurt us and sometimes It's not like

you're just gonna make the decision to be I'm

just gonna be merciful to this person who caused

me immense pain Sometimes you do have to like

work on that and I just want to like mention

that You know just praying to God to be like

God help me to be merciful to someone like you

know what they did to me and help me to be merciful

to them. And maybe they'll take a week, an hour,

maybe they'll take 20 years. It might happen

in the next life. You could be like, God, at

the end of all things, when all is said and done,

when the new heavens and new earth have come,

then I want you to help me forgive this person.

I don't think I can do it now, but I know that

you can help me do that at some point. Yeah,

totally. Very cool. Yeah, so blessed are the

merciful, the people who show love, the people

who forgive when it's hard, the people who are

oriented to the way of Christ. Blessed are they,

for God has given them so much. God has shown

mercy. Preach. It's just what God's all about.

It's kind of his thing. Yeah, very much so. Even

when people don't like it and they don't agree

with it. If it's what God has called us to, then

we're going to be all right. Yeah. Cool. Thank

you so much, folks. And thank you for tuning

in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I

hope that in whatever situations you need to

show mercy, whether they're in the small things

or the really big things, that you can find the

way of Jesus in that and continue listening for

God's voice, calling us to show love. and calling

us beloved in the midst of that. We'll see you

again next week.