The Real Cost of Peace | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. My name is

Melissa. And I'm Justin. And we are here to continue

talking about the Beatitudes, the section that

opens Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, where he talks

about all the kinds of people who are blessed.

And today we're going to talk about peacemakers.

Hmm. Yes. So Jesus says, Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they will be called children of God. Yes.

That sounds nice. Yeah. Yeah, I like peace. I

feel like liking peace is a pretty universal

thing. How we get there is maybe debated. Until

someone smacks you in the face. Right. Yes. Yes.

So, what is a peacemaker? When Jesus says, blessed

are the peacemakers, what do we think that he

has in mind here? Well, when I think about a

peacemaker, the first thing I think about is,

like, maybe, like, UN, you know, like, people

who go into, like, countries that are war -torn,

who are going through really difficult, like,

devastations, and they're just, like, you know,

trying to create peace, trying to, you know,

say no to war, pacifists. That's usually what

I think about a peacemaker. Okay. Fair. Yeah.

Yeah. What about you? I guess, ironically, I

think about a gun. Okay. I think in the Old West,

a gun was called a peacemaker. Lol. Okay. Yeah.

That might come from Ralphie in Christmas Story

where he calls his gun his peacemaker, his air

rifle. Okay. That's probably not the right answer,

but that's what comes to mind. But that's what

comes to mind. I mean, that's valid. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So, yes, when I think of peacemaker, I

would say something similar to what you said,

Melissa, except that. These people, so the UN

or Canadian troops or whatever, aren't actually

called peacemakers generally. They're called

peacekeepers. Oh, right. The blue helmet guys?

Yeah. Yes. And I think there's a difference there

between someone who makes peace and someone who

keeps peace. Maybe less so in the context of

the military. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a

military person. But yeah, like when I think

about... A peacemaker. It's someone who, like,

there's a very specific calling to do, to bring

about something that's not there, probably. Right.

Yeah. Whereas a peacekeeper, your job is a bit

different in the sense that, like, you're sort

of assuming that there's some level of peace

there and your job is to, like, keep it, protect

it. Right. Which is ironic, right? Because they

usually go into war zones. Yes. So there's not

really peace there. No. But in the context of

this scripture passage, I think it's very interesting

that Jesus calls us to be peacemakers and not

peacekeepers. Yes. Because keeping the peace

sometimes means being passive. Right, yeah. Like

not rocking the boat. Like not rocking the boat

and just being like, this is all fine. Yeah.

When maybe it's actually not fine. Whereas a

peacemaker, sometimes you have to like do the

hard thing in order for like true sort of peace

to come about. Right. Yeah. I don't know. What

do you guys think about that distinction? That

that makes a lot of sense, because, yes, if you

have to make something, you then have to like

take initiative to make it, which I think I guess

if I were to like juggle between these two, being

a peacekeeper might be, quote unquote, easier

than being a peacemaker, because, yeah, you just

have to be a peacekeeper. You know, you don't

have to like do anything or. You know, if you're

going into a war -torn country, then it probably

means that there already is an idea of peace

that you're trying to achieve. Like, maybe if

you go into another country and you're like,

I come from a country where there is no war,

so maybe I want to replicate that in this country.

But is that actually peace? I guess there's,

like, questions about that. But if, like, peacemaker,

it's, like, a higher tier of peace. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think. Consistent with

the theme we've been talking about all these

weeks is there's a cost involved in these things.

Like it's costly to be meek. It's costly to hunger

and thirst after righteousness. And it's costly

to make peace when those around you are not interested

in being peaceful. Right. You're sort of... you're

once again refusing to play by the rules that

are expected of you as a member of this fallen

world. Right. When someone, we've talked about

this with love of enemies, when someone wrongs

you, the rules are you will get vengeance. Right.

Yes. Or you'll nurse a grudge or you'll, you'll

celebrate when they fail or something like that.

And Jesus is saying, no, in the economy of my

kingdom, you're going to opt out of that and

make peace where it's expected that you will

make war. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.

So, um, when Bonhoeffer talks about peacemakers,

he brings up like that point exactly and talks

about like Jesus's road to being a peacemaker,

like led him to the cross. Yeah. Right. And like

the cross is where Christ makes peace with the

world. Right. And so therefore as followers of

Christ, Like, peacemaking might lead us into

suffering, into death, into persecution of some

kind. Right, right. And I think it's just, I

think when you put it, like, when you kind of,

like, look at it that way, you're kind of like,

well, why would I be a peacemaker, right? Why

wouldn't I fight back? Why wouldn't I, you know,

Jesus could have easily called down a legion

of angels, but he... did it he was like no like

I'm going to go through this and he wasn't doing

that making peace so I think again I guess I

think it's just like there's so much sacrifice

to it there's so much cost to it you think it's

like something that's really like nice but a

lot of it is like even just like sacrificing

your own pride too because there's definitely

times where I'm like I want to yell at someone

I want to say something back that's probably

going to cause an argument and perhaps making

peace looks like just you know closing your mouth

or even actively going to that person and being

like hey have a great day even though you just

wish that i would not have a great day um there's

a lot of sacrificing of self yeah yeah it's interesting

i've been i was kind of dreading this one because

i've been sort of um Popping little political

points in the middle of this, because I think

the Sermon on the Mount is very political. Sure.

So I was like, oh, man, I'm going to go off on

this one. And I have to like hold myself back.

But then I read Martin Luther, his commentary

on this. OK. Luther was a reformer, a Protestant

reformer in the 16th century. And he wrote a

series of sermons on the Sermon on the Mount.

And he, you know, he did make the point that

we're making, right, that we kind of have a pacifist

impulse as Christians or we should. But then

he kind of goes into the personal relational

part of it, where he's saying, like, when someone

comes to you and is gossiping about a friend,

you have a choice. Are you going to exacerbate

this relational, this invitation to relational

breakdown? Right. Or are you going to make peace?

Okay. Right. So if someone's like, man, this

person at work is so annoying. They screwed up

another project, et cetera. Your choice is to

be like. yeah they suck or you know i think they

have some good qualities too though they might

have messed up and you know you're sort of like

dampening the fire that's about that could erupt

at any moment i was really surprised by that

yeah right that that um we think in terms of

peacemaking as i'm going to refuse to take up

arms or you know the early church was pacifist

for hundreds of years they wouldn't fight in

wars or be soldiers or anything But he's saying,

yeah, the insidious part of the temptation to

not be a peacemaker is you want to join in with

those who are rabble rousing. Right. Or stirring

the pot or something like that. And he's like,

a Christian is one who stops that, stops it in

his tracks and actually tries to work towards

relational reconciliation, even in those small

moments. Right. Which was convicting for me.

Yeah. Yeah. And even just like that, like, you

know how we're talking about how Jesus being

a peacemaker led him to the cross. I guess, of

course, in a less extreme example. But when we

do say no to social things like gossiping or

like talking about someone, you know, sometimes

when someone's saying those things like, oh,

my gosh, that person's so annoying. They did

this. they say that to you, they kind of want

to hear a bit of external validation back. Right.

But then when you're not giving that to them,

that could mean that you could lose friends.

You could be, you could not be part of the group.

You know, you might be on your own because you're

choosing to say, actually, I don't want to engage

in tearing someone down. I'm sorry. Even if that

means that, you know, no one comes to you again

when they're like complaining or just whatever.

And you got to think too, that that's the seeds

that create, The big blow ups. True. A culture

of backbiting and a culture of slander is what

leads to a breakdown of trust, which leads to

the macro things. Right. So it starts with me

being skeptical of my foreign neighbor. In this

case, I am the foreigner. But, you know, and

then that gets ballooned into a larger scapegoating

of a group which balloons into we got to take

this country over or, you know. Um, so I thought

Luther was very smart to say like, nip it in

the bud, you know, before things get out of hand.

Yeah. And I think like all of this makes me think

about like the quality or the kind of piece that

we're like going for here feels really important.

Um, and so the. The Greek word, in my understanding,

is irene, for peace, which roughly correlates

to my favorite Hebrew word, which is shalom.

Yes. It also correlates to my favorite Rastafarian

word, which is ire. Okay. Yeah. From Bob Marley.

Very cool. So Shalom, one of the reasons that

I love it so much is because it does, yes, mean

peace, but it's actually like a much bigger vision

than that. Like it's wholeness. It's justice.

It's like all of the good things that I would

wish for in the world is Shalom. And so then

when we're talking about. Being peacemakers people

who are called to create or to participate in

bringing about Shalom because I don't think we

do it ourselves But who are called to bring about

Shalom through the work of God like we are not

just talking about Oh, Melissa, and I get along.

Yeah, it's like no actually like I care for you

you care for me there is like reciprocal relationship

here and we are working towards a bigger like

society that also embodies that the way the way

that's classically put right is um peace is not

the absence of injustice but it's the positive

pursuit of justice right yeah yeah and that's

cool that feels really important to me when we're

thinking about like what does it mean to be a

peacemaker we're not just called to like end

conflict we're called to do something in its

place yeah that is better And I think it's like

because God is love. And since it's saying that

the peacemakers will be, you know, children of

God. Yes, it's like smooth transition. Thank

you. There's just like when you're doing the

active work of peacemaking, because I think we

talked about how it's not a passive thing is

it is an active thing. You really have to choose

love. It really has to come from a place of love

and like caring, because if you don't, you know,

love that person or see that person as a child

of God made in God's image, then it's like, well,

why wouldn't I talk terribly about you? Because

you also annoyed me, too. Right. You really have

to come from a place of love and care and loving

thy neighbor and also loving God, too, because

at the end of the day, no matter who annoys us,

they are still made in the image of God. Which

is hard. Yeah. Image bearers can be annoying

sometimes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Definitely.

The other thing that I think about like in this

in this context is so Jesus is speaking to Jewish

people living in a Roman occupation. And the

Roman Empire is like folks will talk about like

the Pax Romana, the idea of Roman peace. And

so there is a. a peace that the Roman Empire

has proclaimed. Well, that the Roman Empire has

crushed all its enemies so there's no opposition

anymore. Right, exactly. So this is the kind

of peace that folks are ostensibly living under.

But Jesus says we still need peacemakers because

that's not actually the kind of peace that we're

going for here. Wait, wait. I think it makes

me think about how just throughout this entire

series and like Justin said about how like this

is like the kingdom that is to come. This is

what God's kingdom will look like. I think, you

know, when I just look through history, but even

just like today, sometimes making peace can feel

a little bit impossible. It can feel a little

bit like, how do we do that? And, you know. How

do we do that so that other people aren't getting

hurt? You know, because there's also that element

too, especially when it comes to wars and things

like that. Yeah. Yeah. Could I say something

about the children bit? Yes. I don't know. This

might be exegetically helpful. Okay. Bible study

-ish helpful. Yes. Whenever you see children

of or sons of, it used to be translated. In the

ancient Near East, like the sons of Israel, like

the Ben Israel. It means that you're called a

son of something or a child of something when

you take on the characteristics of that thing.

Okay. Right. So later on, Jesus is yelling at

the scribes and Pharisees and saying, like, you're

actually sons of the devil because you're doing

the stuff the devil is doing. Right. Right. So

when Jesus says, if you're a peacemaker, you're

a son of God or a child of God. He's saying you

will take on the qualities that God has. So it's

kind of like what you were saying about God being

love. You're identifying yourself as a proper

child of God when you do things that God does

and you do things that Christ does specifically.

So I think that when you bring that in, it's

got this nice balance of that active, I'm going

to make peace. But really what I'm doing is reflecting

something that's outside of myself. I'm taking

on the character qualities of the one I'm following,

which is Christ. So it's not just sort of, I

mean, the whole game with the Beatitudes is to

not turn it into an excessive. kind of law. Yeah.

Right. You got to do these things. And if you

do them, then God's going to reward you. No,

it's like you're doing these things because you're

a citizen of the kingdom. Right. Because you're

following Christ. You're a peacemaker because

the one you follow is the ultimate peacemaker.

Yeah. Yeah. So like Jesus has blessed the peacemakers

for they will be called children of God. And

that makes it sound like if you're a peacemaker,

you become a child of God. But actually, the

opposite is also true. Yeah. You are a child

of God and therefore you will be a peacemaker.

Yeah. And in fact, I mean, the alternative of

that is. you know the the scribes and the pharisees

at the time they're like we're sons of abraham

right and jesus is like you're not sons of abraham

because you're not doing the stuff that abraham

did right even if you're ethnically the sons

of abraham sure you're not sort of earning that

title or reflecting that title yeah right so

if you're not a peacemaker and you're calling

yourself a follower of christ Maybe you might

be in the danger zone. And there's plenty of

examples throughout history of Christians being

of people taking the name of Christ as their

identity and not doing Christlike stuff. And

that's a big reveal. Yes. According to the Beatitudes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it then reminds me of,

you know, like later on in the sermon. I think

towards the end, Jesus talks about, you know,

there'll be all of these false leaders and things

and there'll be like wolves in sheep's clothing.

And how do you know the difference? Yeah. By

their fruit. By their fruit, you will know them.

That's right. Yeah. So like the leaders who actually

are following Jesus will have good fruit and

the leaders who are not following Christ will

not. Yeah. And so like, if you just look at that,

are they being peacemakers? Are they like being

meek? Are they doing all of these things? Like,

is that the outcome of their life? Then, Great.

Yeah. Not like maybe they're not the people that

we should be emulating. Yeah. Right. I also think

like, you know how like it's like we love because

Jesus loved like Jesus. He is in kind of like

a logistical like. I hope that's the right word,

but it's like Jesus is a peacemaker because through

his actions of dying for our sins, he has made

us like children of God, like God has adopted

us as his children. And so in a way, it's kind

of like Jesus literally is a peacemaker who made

us children of God. So then it's like we also

will be peacemakers as well. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Totally. So. I want to bring this into conversation

with another piece of scripture, because later

in Matthew's gospel, Jesus says, I did not come

to bring peace, but to bring a sword. This seems

challenging to me in the context of Jesus telling

us to go forth and be peacemakers. Now, is there

a way we can bring these two things together?

I think so. I hope so. But like initially, when

you like put those two things together, like

what are. What are the thoughts that you have

there? Definitely when I put those two scriptures

together, I'm like, wait, what are you talking

about? You know, it's like, do I bring peace?

Because if we're supposed to emulate Jesus and

be peacemakers, then... Jesus came to bring a

sword. So then it definitely is confusing. And

then later on in the gospels, Jesus tells Peter,

put away your sword. This is a lot of sword flinging

potentially happening here. Well, I have some

thoughts on it. So I think, I think what it means

in that passage is that the kingdom of God has

not been fully revealed yet. Right. So remember

we talked about at some point, I can't remember

how Jesus and his followers don't fit. Yes. Right.

They're like puzzle pieces that don't fit. Yeah.

Right. So so there's conflict that is created

when you have what's called in philosophy, like

a surd, like a weird thing that doesn't fit.

And I think that's what Jesus is saying. I didn't

come to sort of endorse the way things are. I

came to show an alternative vision of reality.

And that means when you face me, you're going

to have to choose. Do I want to continue living

in this old way? Right. Or do I want to live

into this new kingdom? And by sword, I think

he means like dividing. Right. Right. Because

later he says, the next verse says something

like, I've come to. to divide households, right?

Mothers from kids and fathers from everybody,

brothers from brothers, right? He's saying like,

you could go along in your merry way because

you're all living in the same world. Right. And

now there's an alternative there, right? It's

that line from Bonhoeffer that I keep quoting,

right? When you come across Jesus, you have two

options. You either follow him or kill him. Right.

And some people are going to choose to follow

him and some people are going to choose to kill

him. And based on that choice, there's going

to be separation between those people. I don't

think he means I've come to arm my disciples

to take everything by force. Yeah. I think he's

saying I naturally throw things out of whack

and force you to choose where you could have.

been passive before yeah yeah and i also think

because i i first of all that's really really

cool i never thought of it that way but it's

like you know it's not a sword to like hurt people

it's not a sword to kill but it's a sword to

kind of like divide and have people choose which

side are you going to be on you know and the

other thing too is like he's like saying I didn't

come to bring peace. It's like, well, what kind

of peace are you talking about? Cause there is,

you know, like we've mentioned the peacemaking

where you're actively trying to like make the

world a better place. Sometimes you can also

think of peace, you know, as appeasing someone.

You just kind of want to be like. oh, yeah, say

whatever you want, do whatever you want. But

I won't engage because if I engage, then there

might be a fight. So my way of peacekeeping is

to just, you know, stay back. And in that context,

it's like Jesus is saying, like, don't be on

the fence. Don't just sit there to appease. You

have to choose if you're going to follow me,

if you're not going to follow me. And that is

that source. I think that's really cool. Yeah.

No, I think that's a helpful way to sort of think

about it. Which also, I mean, the negative side

is beware of Christians who seem to fit hand

in glove with the way the world is going. Sure.

Yes. Right? Because a choice is always made.

Yes. Right? As the patron saints of Canada, Rush,

once said, right? If you choose not to decide,

you still have made a choice. Right. I'm assuming

you don't know that song, but the Gen X and boomers

will know what I'm talking about. Right. I'm

happy for you all. Um, yeah. And I mean, I think,

so yes, all of that context sort of came to mind

for me. The other thing that came to mind for

me in this metaphor of a sword is that like the

person holding the sword matters in some sense.

Like, like Christ is yes. The Christ sword is

like dividing us in some sense, but like, I don't

get to wield this sword. I don't get to say who's

in, who's out. I don't get to decide who's ear

to chop off. Yes. Like all of this stuff. Right.

And here's the thing. Even if Jesus did come

down to be like, I actually have bought a sword

to arm my disciples and to sling and do whatever

I want. Technically, it's like. he can because

he is god like who are we as mere human beings

to ever tell god actually you being a sword is

not peaceful and god's like what do you know

about peace um i created peace um and i think

again like you know we are very very like fortunate

that we have such a loving god who does not want

us to be hurt and who wants us to you know come

to him and like rely on him but it's like yeah

like If anyone's going to wield a sword, it should

be Jesus and only Jesus and no one else. Yes.

In Revelation 19, he comes back with a sword.

Yeah. But, oh, I can't remember what I was going

to say, but yes, great point. Thanks. So how

does this beatitude, blessed are the peacemakers

for they will be called children of God. How

does this fit in with all of the other? with,

you know, being poor in spirit, being meek. I

think as we talked about this, you know, peacemaking

might lead us to the cross, then it therefore

naturally leads into the last beatitude, where

we talk about persecution. Yeah, I mean, I think

they're all about embracing being weird. because

the kingdom doesn't fit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

um, you know, like keep Portland weird, like

keep the kingdom of heaven weird. Like when the

kingdom of heaven starts to fit, we're in trouble.

Yeah. Right. When you, when you just weren't

just an alternative politic in the world, just

like anything else, you know, we're not competing.

I always put it this way. We're not competing

for space in the world. Yeah. Right. Because

our kingdom is coming and Christ has already

proclaimed victory. We have the freedom to do

these things. Yep. Right. In a way that, you

know, the freedom of the confidence of the impending

kingdom of God gives us. So that's how I read

all of them. That's why they're, they're, they're

not just orders. Sure. They're a picture of something,

but it's a picture with a, that come with a challenge.

And the challenge is Jesus being like, are you

going to follow me? Right. yes and if you are

actually live this out yeah yeah yeah he's not

interested in again it's not um oh gosh i'm gonna

sound like a youth pastor from the 90s but he's

not about making a religion you know yeah um

he's saying like this is the this is a way right

remember christians were called followers of

the way early on yeah and i feel like I like

that you mentioned how the Beatitudes, they aren't

just like a law or like rules for someone to

follow. It is like a way of living because then

and it's also an aspect of like you have to constantly

ask God to be like, OK, God, you said to be a

peacemaker so that I can be, you know, children

of God. How do I do that? What does that look

like in this situation? It's not like he's saying

that on this very specific day, if you make this

decision, you are a peacemaker. And with the

rest of the Beatitudes as well, it's like, you

know, it's like blessed are the meek. Okay, God,

what does that mean to be meek? How do I be meek

in this situation in my life? And I think it's

just. you know, when we focus on the relationship

aspects instead of the religion aspect, the Beatitudes

are really highlighting that because we can't

do any of these things that Jesus is calling

us to do without the Holy Spirit, without God

telling us and teaching us and guiding us. Yeah,

totally. Yeah. It's very much this like whole

life thing. And following Jesus is, Weird in

more ways than one, but it's, it's weird in this

moment in a sense that like we are called to

do a thing, but also to not worry about doing

it. Yeah. Right. Like we are called to be peacemakers

and at the same time, trust that God has already

made peace and God is making peace. Yes. Right.

Yeah. It makes you more relaxed. You're acting

for something that's already, been accomplished

yeah um yeah so i don't have to freak out when

i'm my peace is not coming to yeah i mean i think

the same thing in the church when when jesus

says the gates of hell will not prevail against

the church right right in the church sometimes

we freak out all the time because of numerical

decline or whatever yeah and uh but you don't

have to worry The fate of the church isn't in

your hands. Jesus said you're going to win. So

chill. Literally, thank God. The fate of the

church is not in my hands. Yeah. Yeah. So it

frees you to do risky, incredible things and

not worry. It frees you to follow Christ. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. And I, you know, I just. Always

think about that quote. It's not from the Bible.

I think I got it from TikTok, where it's like,

who do you think you are that you're that powerful

that you can derail God's plans, right? And that,

I think, makes peace within myself, too. You

have a more holy FYP than I do on TikTok. Oh,

never mind. Mine is far sillier. Yes. So, blessed

are the peacemakers. People who aren't just like

passively sitting around waiting for peace to

happen, but will work for it. Will work for that

justice and wholeness and reconciliation. Even

when it leads you to the cross. Because that's

what Jesus did. So when we do that, we are children

of God. We are followers of Christ. I guess it's

not a gun then. Just our job. I don't think so,

unfortunately. Sorry, Ralphie. Or fortunately.

I don't know. I don't really want to wield a

gun, but somebody might. And if that's you, I'm

sorry, I guess. Scary. Yeah. Well, thank you,

folks, for this conversation. And thank you for

tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks.

Go out and make peace. Whatever that looks like

in your life, whatever the challenging places

are that need some of that wholeness and reconciliation

and love, go there and do that in the power of

Christ. And we'll see you next week.