The Cost of Seeking Justice | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Melissa.

Britten. Justin. And we are here to wrap up our

conversation about the Beatitudes, this section

that opens Jesus's sermon on the Mount where

he talks about all of the kinds of people who

are blessed and why that matters, what it sort

of looks like for us to live in the way of Jesus.

It kind of ends on a bit of a downer. I mean,

there's a little bit. Great is your reward in

heaven. That is the actual end. Great is your

reward in heaven. But to get the reward in heaven,

Jesus says, blessed are the persecuted or blessed

are those who are persecuted for righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, I mean,

The reward is great. The road is maybe less ideal.

Yes. The way to put it. Yes. Yeah. So we're talking

about persecution. Blessed are those who are

persecuted because of righteousness. So first,

maybe we need to talk about like persecution

as a word. Like what when you hear that word,

like what sort of comes to mind for you? Well,

definitely this is something that I've learned

more, even just like last year. But there is

a lot of Christian persecution that happens.

Perhaps it doesn't happen in the Western world,

where Christianity is deemed to be kind of like

the dominant kind of religion. If you are a Christian

in a Western country, you do have certain privileges

that other people of other religions would not.

However, this isn't the case in other countries

in the world. there's a lot of people who are

dying or who are being horribly treated, kidnapped,

all these things, persecuted, thrown out by their

own families and other countries because they've

decided to follow Jesus. And there is an organization,

I actually don't know if I can mention it here.

It's called Open Doors Canada. So this organization,

they specifically work with countries where Christians

are being persecuted. It's really prevalent and

it's really sad, the stories. I believe that

recently there were children who were killed

in Nigeria or they were kidnapped and they were

Christian children. So it's not always like shown

on the media. However, if you go looking for

these stories, you'll see that there's a lot

of stories of Christians who are being killed

right now in countries where Christianity is

not... the dominant religion yeah yeah yeah totally

it's like serious stuff it it is and um i think

i think it's just that you know we live in such

a privileged place where we can talk about our

faith openly um and i think sometimes as christians

who grow up in western countries we kind of take

that for granted um of course not all of us because

they're are Christians who do get persecuted

as well. However, not to the extent that someone

in a another country may be persecuted. And it's

there's very, very dark stories that come out

of countries like this. And I won't mention them.

But again, if you look for it, you will find

it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what do you folks think

of when you think of or hear persecution? Yeah,

I guess like I. The word persecution, I think,

within a Western context, especially within Christian

spaces, is something that is almost like a buzzword

that we use to talk about the oppression of self.

And it tends to be used within spaces that...

I guess we need to like define what do we mean

by persecution? Yeah, right because some folks

will will say like because you don't permit me

to I don't know. Yeah, yeah persecution complex.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's and it becomes this this

like whole thing um And so it's yeah, just to

sort of finish your sentence there like it's

it's People will say that they're persecuted

when they don't get to do like sort of thing,

they're inconvenienced in some way. It's persecution.

Yeah. It's, I can't pray in school anymore. Or

I can't force other people to pray. Yeah, or

I can't force other people to pray in school

and therefore I'm persecuted. And that's maybe

not the angle that we have in mind here. And

I think that's why when like what you're talking

about, Melissa, and like what people are experiencing

in other countries, when we do have those conversations,

a lot of folks will, they're already tuned out

because we've made the word, we've watered it

down so much within our own society that and

use very what I would define as minuscule things

to to validate it. And in some ways, we cried

wolf so much times that it doesn't it doesn't

it doesn't feel like it's true. Sure. Yeah, there's

definitely difference between Christians getting

persecuted in the context of a waning Christendom.

and in the context of a place where Christians

are a minority, right? We feel like we're getting

persecuted sometimes here because we're no longer

in charge of everything, right? But someone who's

converted in a Muslim majority nation or, you

know, in India and a Hindu majority area or something

like that is gonna face different kinds of consequences.

Right. And then that text talks about like for

righteousness sake. Yeah, and I think That's

the other piece. It's not because you have this

label of being Christian or because you take

on doing insert Christian -ish thing here. Like

you walk with your Bible or you wear a necklace

that has a cross on it. And those things do.

People do experience that. But in Christian minority

countries, people do experience those things.

But it's not just because of the symbols. that

they're showing, it's because of what follows

up with that. Like, yeah. Yeah, it's not purely

ethno -religious persecution, right? Because,

like I mentioned, Hindu majority, right? The

Muslims are getting it just as bad as the Christians,

right, in some of those contexts. So it's whatever

the majority. Yeah, it's not because you said

you, because you're following Jesus and Jesus

has led you to feed the poor. But that is, historically,

that is, when we think of, especially, like,

I was thinking about this passage and I was thinking

about it in the context of what happened after.

What happened after people started to like take

that name of Christian and the stories that they

would tell. And it, what, what Christians were

being persecuted for are things that many of

us today, like as Christians, like we're like

the church is begging us to do like feeding the

poor. Like literally that was, that was enough

to be persecuted. Cause you were, you were You

were throwing the the the powers that be on their

head like they were they were winning off of

these things They were thriving off of these

things. I guess what kept power in place Yeah,

so by doing by it by helping your neighbor and

this sounds so simplistic, but like that's what

they were doing Yeah, yeah, you're throwing a

wrench in the system. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like

when it comes to like even just like all of the

Beatitudes, including this one, like sometimes

you read and you think, OK, I have to actively

go find a way to get persecuted so that I can

now, you know, be blessed. And it's like just

like some of the other Beatitudes we talked about,

you don't as a Christian, you don't need to actively

go out to look for it. Just being a Christian

and what you represent in a fallen world means

that you will get persecution. You will get pushback

from people. Of course, depending on where you

live. that intensity of pushback will depend.

You know, it's like, yeah, being told, maybe

you can't pray in school because of whatever

reason or people are like, hey, why aren't you

doing X, Y, Z when we're all doing it? And you

say, well, I'm following Jesus, so I'm not doing

X, Y, Z. And they might not talk to you or not

want to be around you for whatever reason. That

is a form of persecution. And there's also, of

course, people dying and people getting kidnapped

and all these terrible things. And it's just.

I don't think it's like God's like asking us

to seek persecution. I think He's like kind of

giving us this comfort that He wants us to follow

Him. But a natural consequence of following Jesus

means that the world is going to hate you and

so the world is going to persecute you. However,

it's like reassuring to hear that like Jesus

knows that. And it's like kind of like you have

to endure that because the opposite of enduring

that is turning away from Jesus and following

the world. It's also not just the world. So Jesus

says, they're going to persecute you just like

they persecuted the prophets. The prophets were

sent to the children of Israel. Right? So it

was the kings and the leaders of the Israelite

society that were persecuting the prophets. It

wasn't the Philistines or the Arameans. Right?

So I think we have to be conscious of the fact

that when you choose the way of Christ, even

in the context of church, people in the church

are going to potentially persecute you. As Jesus

says, the church is a mixed community. It's wheat

and tares, as he says in the parable. It's not

just wheat. So if you try to live the way Jesus

lives, you're going to throw a wrench not only

in the way the world functions, but you'll throw

a wrench in the context of people trying to use

the church institutionally for their own devices.

Right. Yeah. And I was thinking about that and

like, just like, I think that the word persecution

is the loaded term. And it made me think, what

are the things that, especially in light of the

prophet piece, I think that's really important

to note, because what are the things that we

tend to not see as Christian persecution or persecution

that happens to Christians for righteousness

sake, but truly is like taking up that cross

and getting battered. And I started thinking

about it in the lens that we're in the context

of the civil rights movement. And that in itself,

I think, is an example of how within our mainstream

Christian spaces, we don't... That wouldn't be

labeled under... No one would think of automatically

jump to Christian persecution. and think of all

of those black and other folks that were fighting

against segregation, fighting against the marginalization

that was happening in North America. And no one

would think of it like that, or maybe let's insert

movement into it. And we're not going to think

of, most people wouldn't even put that in climate

justice. No one's going to say, oh, that's Christian

persecution. But there is... There is a conversation

that should be happening there. Sure. That's

what King said in his Birmingham jail letter.

Yeah. He's writing it to other pastors who are

not supporting. Yeah. You know, like you were

saying you need to be more moderate in your approach.

Right. I'm doing this because of. My faith. The

call was inside the house. I really, really love

that point you made because that's so true. It's

like there's so many political, historical things

that are happening right now. And there are Christians

who are fighting against, you know, social injustice,

right? maybe because they don't look like what

the mainstream Christian, stereotypical Christian

looks like. You don't label it as Christian persecution.

But again, like, you know, when we talked about

how persecution against Christians, it's not

just like an ethno thing, right? There's no ethnicity

or nationality behind a Christian. A Christian

is someone who follows Jesus. And kind of in

that spirit, like there's so many things that

we learn about. And you don't know that there's

these are Christians, Christ followers who love

God and who want to love people. and they were

being persecuted. And there's so many layers

here because yeah, it's like, you know, maybe

they weren't being persecuted because they were

Christian, but they were being persecuted for

other things. Their race, their sexuality, where

they come from, all these other things. But I

guess just hearing what you said, it's like that

still is Christian persecution because they're

fighting for something. that they believe and

where the Christians are being persecuted because

they're standing with those oppressed folks.

Yes. Because of their faith in Christ. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like there's all of these places

where Christ calls us to and Christ doesn't just

call us into Christian spaces. Yeah. And that's

why maybe, well, the term Christian didn't exist

at that point when he was talking, but like the

saying persecuted for righteousness sake. Right.

In that context, I think it opens us up to getting

out of the like, I think we sit in this label

sphere where unless we can tightly label it,

then it doesn't matter. But righteousness, what

God has called to restore is beyond just like

making a denomination or a religious institution.

Great. I would actually say that's a So if if

if righteousness is coming into right relationship,

then all of these pieces are brought into it.

And that persecution piece, because there are

people that are going to die and they're not

going to label themselves as we can have a whole

other conversation. But they might not be looking

at in the context of saying I am doing this because

I read. I did my catechism and I read every single

book and it's because of this text that I'm doing

X, Y, and Z. They might not have that, but there

is a spirit, and I believe that's Christ, that

is calling them into something greater, calling

them into right relationship. And that will lead

to persecution. Opposition. Oppositional forces.

Yeah. This world runs on the fuel of opposition

to the Kingdom of Heaven. Yep. Right? So if you

start living as if the Kingdom of Heaven is actually

real, you won't fit. You'll be like a puzzle

piece that doesn't fit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

I think that's why, like, I sort of said that,

you know, that we end on a bit of a downer. But

like... Hit it fits. It fits with everything

else that we've talked about They're all downers.

They're all downers. Downers for now, then things

get flipped. But I guess like when I look at

the other Beatitudes, you know, like hungering

and thirsting for righteousness and meekness

and and all of these like peacemaking nice nice

things. That was a good conversation we had about

peacemaking. Yeah, I like I think there's just

There's a sense in which I can logic my way into

like, okay, this is why this might be a good

thing. Oh, I see. Right? I can say, okay, meekness,

yes, it's counter to the world, but I can understand

why God would call me to meekness. I can see

the benefit of it there. Persecution feels like

a different category to me because I can't logic

it in the same way. It's gonna lead into the

bit about loving your enemies. I think it needs

to be read hand in hand with that. Okay. because

Jesus was persecuted. Right. But he's persecuted

for the sake of his persecutors kind of in a

way. Sure. Right. He's doing this out of love

for the world. He's willing to to sort of face

that. He's willing to stand up for justice and

righteousness and all of that stuff to show the

world a better way, even though they end up rejecting

and killing him for it. Right. So there's a cruciform,

like cross shaped. Sort of sense to this right?

I'm standing up for righteousness because the

world needs to see that you need not be a Manipulative

looking out for number one. Yeah, you know Backstabbing

person to get ahead in this world Do everything

it takes to get wealth and money and power and

sex and all those things You do things differently.

They're not gonna like you for it, but you've

born witness And you're doing it for them, just

the same way Jesus did. Yeah. So, in this beatitude,

the line itself, the blessed are those who are

persecuted because of righteousness for theirs

is the kingdom of heaven, also comes with a bit

of a... Postlude, that's maybe not the right

word, but like, it comes with some extra verses.

Prelude. Prelude? Well, no, because it's at the

end. Oh, it is a postlude. Postlude, if it's

any of a - Adlib? Yeah. Epilogue. Yes? Yeah.

Anyway, it comes with some bonus features. Sounds

like we're saying Jesus is a recording artist

or a rapper. That's a different question than

you when you're just like the prophets. Yes.

What? Yes. So in that section, Jesus, so in the

Beatitude, he said persecuted because of righteousness.

In verse 11 that comes immediately afterwards,

he talks about, you know, people who if you are

like called evil or like if people are like making

fun of you and all of these other things because

of Christ. Yeah. Not because of righteousness.

Now, are these the same? Are they different?

I think they're related. Okay. How are they related?

Because you're acting justly or righteously in

Christ's name. Right. Who's the herald and the

substance of the kingdom of God or the kingdom

of heaven in Matthew's terms. So you're living

a certain way and you're proclaiming Christ together.

Those things are always intertwined. And that's

what people are upset about. Yeah. Right, I think.

And it's also, you know, it's a mirror of everything

Jesus went through, right? When people are speaking

evil of Jesus, right? What did he get called?

He got called a drunkard, a glutton, a demon

possessed, a son of Satan, all that stuff, right?

Even though he's just out there healing and doing

his thing. Because he doesn't fit. Right. He

just doesn't fit. Even though he's the rightful

Lord of this world, he doesn't fit. And that's...

This is another great Bonhoeffer quote, right?

Like when you run across Jesus, your options

are two things. You're either going to fall at

his feet and worship him as Lord or you're going

to crucify him. Right. Like I think I might have

mentioned that before. Maybe that feels like

a very stark contrast. Right. So that's that's

what's going to happen. You're either going to

be like, yes, Lord, I'll follow you like Peter,

or you're going to be like, I need to eliminate

this person. He doesn't fit. I just I think that's

always just something that like is kind of like

You know, the fact that like Jesus and like the

early Christians, they were doing good things

like feeding the poor, helping people, standing

up for the marginalized and the oppressed. And

that's what like got them persecuted. It seems

insane to me right now. However, at the same

time, it still does happen in this world. For

example, if there is an encampment of homeless

people and everyone's like, you got to take that

encampment down because it's ruining my aesthetic

of my park with my nice house. And you're like,

take it away because you have all these stereotypes

about people who are unhoused. It should be the

Christians that are like, no, we're not going

to take this encampment down. We're going to

get these people help. Even this might be controversial,

but harm reduction spots taking that away in

Toronto. It's like there's evidence that harm

reduction is good for the community. It helps

people. It reduces trips to the hospital. And

yet people were so for it to take away this necessary

resource that was going to help people. Why?

Because they were unhoused, because they didn't

look like what you want them to look like. And

it's like, no, it's like the Christians are the

ones who should be standing up for the people

who are oppressed. And you are going to get persecuted

from that. You're going to get called. Why do

you want? to ruin my beautiful yard. Why do you

wanna have these things where these people who

abuse substances can go and use whatever? And

it's like, no, as a Christian, you should stand

up for the people who are marginalized, even

if that means you're gonna get persecuted. And

sorry, this is - Yeah, go for it. I'm very passionate

about this topic, but it's so disheartening when

you see the fact that it's not Christians who

are fighting against that. Sometimes it's Christians

who are like, yeah, tear down that encampment.

And it's like - I feel very strongly that if

this was Jesus, Jesus would not be like teared

down in an encampment. He would be sitting with

the people in the encampment. He'd be sitting

with the people who are using harm reduction

sites, being there for them. He says in Matthew

25, I actually was the person in the encampment.

Yeah, legit. And then, so I think it's just that

those are things that happened this day. And

it's like, as Christians, we should be at the

forefront of like protecting people. I think

sometimes we're afraid to be and I will admit

this to like I'm also afraid to be as well because

I know I'm gonna get persecuted I know someone's

gonna be like XYZ, right? But I think it's like

when we're following that righteousness That's

just gonna lead to that persecution. Yeah. Yeah,

you know, it's I'm gonna I'm a one -track Mind

person here, but Bonhoeffer Yes, Bonhoeffer.

Again, in his prison letters, he was in prison,

imprisoned by the Nazis at the end of his life,

and he wrote all these letters kind of reflecting

on Christianity. And he says, Christians shouldn't

be known for their weird ceremonial practices.

Okay. You know, like, and I think that's what

you were talking about, the persecution complex.

It's like, they won't let me pray, they won't

let me do Eucharist, they won't let me build

my church building or have my music. He's like

do all that stuff in secret. Mm -hmm. He says

let your religious stuff Be done in secret and

let the stuff you're known for be You're dying

for the world, right? Your service to the world,

right? Right because he says He says all the

religious practices we we do can be misinterpreted

by the world. They can be profaned by the world

Oh yeah, the cannibalism. Yeah, yeah, for podcast

listeners, right? It's because people would get

together and eat Jesus' body and blood. Right.

So the rumor was Christians are all cannibals

because they eat bodies and drink blood. Right.

In the early years. Yeah, but he's like, don't

worry. Don't let your brand be the religious

stuff as Christians. Let your brand be... loving

one's neighbor in the name of Christ. Right.

For the glory of God. Yeah. And that's what we

should be known by. They'll know us. Yeah, yeah.

They'll know us by our love. That depressing

song. Yeah. They'll know we are Christians by

our love. By our love. Yes. Yeah. Instead of

they know we're Christians because we won't stop,

you know, laughing about our rights that we deserve.

Yeah. Yeah. So in some ways this beatitude comes

full circle back to the beginning because the

promise is the same as the promise in the first

one. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And as

an English major, I appreciate the poetry of

this. But what else does that offer us? Like,

are we talking about the same sort of promise?

Like, is it the same? Meaning that the kingdom

of God, like there's the kingdom of God. Is that

the same here as what what we're talking about

for the poor in spirit? Yeah, it's just I think

of like what Justin said, actually, which is

that all of the Beatitudes are supposed to be

like are what like the kingdom of heaven will

look like that upside down kingdom. And I feel

like in some ways it's like even they are talking

about different attributes. I feel like all the

Beatitudes kind of in a way just like say the

same thing, which is that if you follow Jesus,

you know, you're not just a fan of Jesus, you

actually follow him. That's going to bring, there's

going to be hardships. It's going to be really

difficult. However, that's what you got to do,

because that's what the kingdom of heaven is

going to look like. Right. And I was thinking.

in like you were talking about the encampment

pieces and how churches aren't even a part of

it and that's so true and I was thinking the

churches that are usually like very poor their

fundraising efforts don't go very far um but

in light of that I was I was thinking like it

makes more it probably is better to be poor in

spirit and in material things yeah and then be

persecuted because at least you have nothing

to lose right you can Like, what are you gonna,

like, all you're gonna lose, you're not gonna

lose the kingdom of heaven. You don't see the

megachurches trying to fight for the encampments.

You see them on Grammy shows. Do you guys have

megachurches in Canada? Not much. I'll show y

'all a megachurch compounded in the United States.

But yeah, maybe it's better to just be poor.

It's better to have nothing to lose. We talked

about this before. We talked about that investment.

If we are investing in this earth, then how can

we prioritize heaven? And yeah, I think we invest

so much that it is hard. So when the hard moments

do come, when it is time for us to take a stand,

It's so uncomfortable because we're holding so

much. Like I think of the rich young ruler, like

it was so hard for him to figure it out because

he had like he'd built up so much here that to

give up just a bit would have been too much.

That investment was so heavy. Some good cost

fallacy. Yeah. But really. was more, it's more

beneficial if you think about the long run. It's

also, I think, let's speak like plainly, I think

it's better for your mental health. But like,

not even just like having less materially, but

to be in a place where you can do the right thing.

You can live justly knowing that like, I'm I'm

not tied to any of these things. I can make the

right move because I can say the right thing

and stand up for people and call out really garbage

things when they're happening in my government,

in my community, in my home, because I haven't

invested into what is so, I would say, corrupt.

Say that I don't want to sort of just celebrate

poverty But I also that's one of the reasons

why we try to alleviate Because it's not a great

life To be poor there are certain sort of spiritual

potentially advantages, but it also sucks to

be addicted to smack in the streets But yeah,

I mean there's there's a balance I mean I think

it's extremely difficult to enter the kingdom

of heaven as a vastly wealthy person. But then

Jesus says, I can even get those people if I

want to. And the early church was subsidized

by all these wealthy women who let people be

in their houses and stuff. But again, you're

doing it out of obedience to Christ, not out

of fear, not out of hoarding, not out of a zealousness

for power. And I would love to see poor people

well fed and housed and all that kind of stuff,

too. Totally. I definitely feel like, yeah, like

it's like for anyone listening, it's not like

we're saying like, again, like we're not telling

you to go find someone to be persecuted. But

sometimes I think it is like every Christian

is going to be given different gifts from God.

And if you do have the privilege of certain gifts,

I feel that you know we're not saying you know

donate all of your money and now go live in a

tent somewhere it's more so like since you are

in that place of privilege how can you then use

that privilege to help those who are disadvantaged

who are facing barriers so for example you know

someone who if you're trying to fight to not

have an encampment of homeless people be taken

down perhaps you are someone who is more affluent

who might know someone and you can kind of speak

to people and be like hey like i don't believe

that you should be doing this to these people.

So I'm going to use what God has given me to

help other people. Because I feel like because

that's the contrast of that is you just sitting

there being like, that sucks for them. I'm just

going to go keep making more money and buy more

Bitcoin or whatever. And it's like you can use

that to help other people, too. And it's a personal

choice you have to make. And I think that's why

it's so hard to make that choice because. Yeah,

you might not be gaining something in the material

sense, but you would be sacrificing something

kind of like for the greater good. But you still

are in a better position than the people you

would be helping. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think

so. Go back to sort of the beginning of your

thought there. Like, we're not seeking persecution,

you know, but seeking the kingdom. We're seeking

the kingdom. And and this statement for me, is

less of a like, go gain, go strive after this

thing and more of a like, don't be surprised

when persecution shows up. Right? Yeah. Don't

have a pity party over it either. Like, I think

that's like the focus should be like, I think

about this a lot in like social issues where

someone might be advocating for a particular

thing and then they become the point of the story.

And usually, usually we say If you become the

point of the story, then you're doing the wrong

thing because you're you're detracting from the

actual issue. So someone is fighting against,

let's say, homelessness. And then now they become

like now all this attention, the story, the headline

is no longer City Park has been demolished or

the police have like, I don't know, formed some

sort of occupation around it or something to

keep certain people out of the park who were

sleeping in encampments. That should be the point

of the story. But if the story becomes, oh, Britain

was arrested by the police and is now in custody

for 10 ,000 days, and if I can get people to

donate to me... to get out of the prison, compared

to get people to donate to the residents that

were in the park in the encampment, then you've

missed the point. The plot's not there. I mean,

it kind of depends, right? Angela Davis is pretty

awesome. There are people, yeah, but like, I

think, like, for those folks, they saw their

positionality. They saw, like, how they were

able to... They could bring... Yeah, like, they

always, like, even, like, Angela Davis is a great

point, because anytime she got on the mic and,

like, she didn't talk about herself. Like in

fact, I've I've rarely heard her talk about herself

unless it's in conjunction to a story that talked

about Grenada like there was a whole thing in

Grenada and she but she talks about herself in

point of like this is what I How I use the power

I had as an American citizen to be able to support

the folks that were experiencing Like all this

up. So yeah, like if you are going to people

are gonna call you names Let them call you names

for righteousness sake or for the name of Christ

not because of yourself. I think that's the angle

I think we tend to miss. It becomes a story about

ourselves. It becomes a story of like, look how

Christian I am and how they want to torture me

as a Christian rather than the justice that we're

supposed to be seeking in the world. And it's

not, I mean, it's not fun to be persecuted, right?

Like, there's a way to get persecuted. I mean,

social media is the perfect example of this,

right? you get persecuted, then you immediately

parlay that into having some kind of audience

or something like that that's following you.

But in real life, it's, I mean, one of the reasons

why I think Jesus is giving us this sermon is

because he's trying to galvanize us. Like, it's

not going to feel like you're blessed in the

moment. It's going to feel terrible. Like the

world's going after you, like the people who

are not meek and not hungering and thirsting

for righteousness are succeeding. Like, everything

inside of you is gonna be like, this isn't worth

it. Right? It's not like people are gonna be

giving you accolades and being like, you know.

But that's why it takes faith, right? We talked

about that on Sunday. It takes faith to follow

the Sermon on the Mount, not grit. Yeah. So,

as we are wrapping up, the Beatitudes. I want

to just like read them all in a row here for

us and see how we feel about that. So Jesus said,

blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is

the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who

mourn for they will be comforted. Blessed are

the meek for they will inherit the earth. Blessed

are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness

for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful

for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the

pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed

are the peacemakers, for they will be called

children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted

because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom

of heaven. So when you hear those all together,

what does that bring about in you? I mean, I

think the first thing that occurs to me is like,

it's a lot. But it's also I Don't know it feels

right even as it feels hard and wrong if that

makes sense like it feels like this is what the

kingdom of God is about and also like Wow, how

does How it's kind of like a Like a dare Okay,

okay Jesus like all right, you want blessing?

This is what it's gonna take right? But it's

going to be awesome if you're willing to saddle

up your horse and ride. Yeah. To quote Stephen

Curtis Chapman. It sounds like a great adventure.

It does. Yes. In a lot of ways. But don't kid

yourself that it's going to be easy. Totally.

You know how, like, Jesus says, like, go and,

like, make disciples of, like, all the nations?

I feel like, in a way, it's like, especially

when I hear about the persecution beatitude,

it's kind of like a calling in a way of, like,

now go and do, you know, righteous things, follow

me, tell people about me. But we know that there

are so many people who've lost their lives because

they've tried to share the, you know, because

they've shared the gospel. They've lost and had

to sacrifice terrible things. And it's kind of

like... Just ending off with the persecution.

It's not like Jesus is calling us to go and be

persecuted But in another sense, it's kind of

like go and do this But you will be persecuted

and it kind of feels like but he's telling us

to you know, go and There's a cost. Yeah, there's

a cost. There's a Not to go ahead, but I was

looking at the other passage that comes right

after it. Yeah He says like you are the salt

of the earth Yeah, kind of goes through all of

these different analogies of like what it looks

like to be Christian And I just feel like it's

like Jesus saying, be useful. This is what your

usefulness will look like. This is what it will

cost you here and now. But be useful. Do you

know that was a big Christian term years ago?

Yeah. No. Yeah. In like the Puritan kind of setting

and in Baptist world, the best compliment you

can give another Christian is you're a very useful

person. But it means useful for God. Yeah, right.

As a student, I used to have that wrote a whole

PhD dissertation about this particular Baptist

preacher. And I think it was the title was A

Most Useful Man. or something like that. I was

like, that's really interesting. Yeah, be useful.

I love that. It's also very Thomas the Tank Engine

coded. I like Thomas the Tank Engine. I used

to religiously watch that. It'd be a very useful

engine for business. Yeah. Yeah. What is the

point of being powerful if you don't do anything

with it? Salt does nothing if it's not. Like,

it seasons things, right? It enhances the food.

Be useful. I think we're not useful enough, I

don't think, in our world right now. The power

that we do have, even the power that... You can

talk about the origins and all that stuff, but

the power that the institutional church does

have, are we useful in that power? Yeah. I have

another doctoral student that wrote a defense

of the Church of England being an established

church. So, you know, there's two countries in

the world that have an established church or

have a religion established with the government.

It's England and Iran. And he's saying like,

okay, there's all these potentially nefarious

reasons why this relationship exists, but what

if we... Yeah, made it righteous. Yeah, I think

we could do if we did this, right? Yeah, it was

a really interesting argument. Yeah, yeah Because

isn't I Feel like I've just come in with I don't

know the scripture like chapter But it's like

the vague idea like when God says, you know Don't

be like lukewarm, you know, you're either gonna

be hot or you're gonna be cold or I'm gonna spit

you out and I know like This is just what I believe

and I know it's like contested of course, but

like lukewarm is just like when you're not useful.

It's like, if you're going to be one thing, it's

like either be hot or be cold. Cause at least

God can use that for something. Um, but I think

a lot of Christians and my, and myself included,

like we fall into that lukewarm thing of like,

yeah, I believe in God. I, you know, follow Jesus.

And at the same time, like I've, I don't have

any fruit, you know, what is my fruit? Um, and

Not to say that like again persecution is something

that you should, you know attain but those who

have suffered a lot for Jesus like Again not

saying that you should aim for that, but I that

is something that they Have kind of in a way

gain I know there's also like those two guys

in the Bible who are like I think something happened

and something where they were like happy because

they were like, oh we got persecuted for Jesus's

sake Paul in silence. Yeah chillin in prison

Yeah, praise in the Lord. And they were like

happy about that. I always think about that because

I'm like, I feel like being persecuted isn't

a good thing, but they were rejoicing that they

were able to be persecuted for Jesus. And so

that's just like something I struggle with because

it's like. I don't know if it's a good. Because

they got to imitate Jesus. Right. Right. There's

that person Colossians. I fill up in myself the

sufferings of Christ in the flesh. It's like

the more Jesus like I am, the more happy I am.

And I don't think I'm at that point. I hope maybe

one day, I believe. We're all growing into that,

right? But also there's this, like, I don't think

anyone is ever gonna, if someone has arrived,

then God bless them. But I don't think anyone

has. Rob Hirkman's is pretty close, though. Okay.

What a fantastic gentleman. Yes, but... No, no,

I think what you said was... Sorry. No, but I'm

just saying that to say, like, I don't think

any of us, in ourselves, like, when it comes

time for us to make that... Like, I've seen some

things, like, there's moments where I look back

and I'm like, wow, why didn't I stop what I saw?

Why didn't I say something? And it could... And

it's not things that people would say, oh, that's

the Christian thing to do, but... really is the

Christ -like thing to do. If I see someone in

the subway, I think is a great example. Actually,

the other day I saw someone and it got into a

fight. This was a perfect example and it shook

me to my core. See, the two people get into a

fight and the first thing I saw everyone else

in the crowd do is pull out their phones. And

it was actually my very unreligious wife who

slapped someone's hand and said, don't do that.

Don't record on your phone. Why would you do

that? Help them. Let's do something. And yeah,

and she stopped. She didn't stop the fight because

that would have been dangerous. But she intervened

in a way that she could. And I'm there just like,

just like, what am I seeing? Because violence

is horrifying. But yeah, just like do like that

act of doing something like seeing people watch

what people record with their phones was disturbing

for me to see. But I think the fact that she

was able to see that and say, I'm so disturbed

by this. I'm seeing these two people lose their

humanity in this moment, belittle each other.

And I'm not going to just participate or just

witness what is happening. And she stopped and

stopped at least one person from doing what they

were doing. And those are the moments I look

back and I'm like, I didn't do this. I'm the

Christian there. I'm the one that has dedicated

a good chunk of my educational investment into

religious education. And still, I sat there and

I stood there and I froze. And the chemist, the

one that wouldn't consider himself very religious,

was the one that moved and did something. And

that's why I think that term of righteousness,

I think, it opens us up from that label. Because

that label, I think, we get fixated on. blocks

us from doing the right thing, the just thing.

And yeah, like I think we're all growing in that.

I'm just to say that. I think we're all growing

in that. I don't think I'm perfect because I

saw that like two weeks ago and I didn't do anything.

And but but the spirit can move us in those moments

to do something. I love what you said. It's like

don't be Christian, be Christ -like because yeah,

like there's a lot of times where if you have

kind of like that Christian mantle, that Christian

name, you know, I would argue that when the world

hears the word, the name Christian, they don't

think about Jesus. They have a very set image

of what a Christian looks like based off media

and stereotypes and history. But it's like, you

know, it's like, yeah, just be Christ -like.

And that can lead to persecution, but that's

ultimately what we should go for. And I love

that your wife did that. Yeah. God bless her.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all... All of these things,

all of the attitudes, it is. I think we've said

this a few times, it is both like a thing that

Christ calls us to and a gift that Christ gives

us. Right. It's it's this is the way that you

should be. But also, like, I know you can't get

there on your own. So, like, let me help you.

Yeah. And that's like what following Jesus is

all about. You're never alone. Yeah. Yeah. It's

like Liverpool. You'll never walk alone. Okay.

Sorry. I had to Google that. You're just like

the plethora of like cultural knowledge and quotations

and things. Yeah, I waste a lot of my time consuming

popular culture. And following Jesus, except

that's not Christ. Yeah. Yeah. And reading about

theology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all of these Beatitudes,

this life that Jesus calls blessed is hard and

beautiful and scary and I think worthwhile. Yes,

I agree worthwhile. Yeah, it's all worth it and

the thing I think is so cool about the Beatitudes

is the fact that it's kind of like Maybe you

know the people that Jesus was speaking to at

the moment. They didn't feel blessed They may

have gone through they may have not gone through

the same situations that current Christians would

be going through now But it's like Jesus saw

obviously he can you know saw the future he first

saw that there would be people who would face

persecution because of they were following him

and I think it would have sucked if there was

no Beatitudes at all. And they were just like,

I'm being persecuted. Now what do I do? Right.

For following Jesus. But Jesus kind of was like

reassuring them from the very beginning of like,

I know this hurts. I know you're being persecuted.

But since you are doing it for me, like, I see

you. I knew this would happen. But I'm here.

Yeah. And that can sometimes just give us the

courage to keep enduring. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Thank you very much, folks, for this whole series

of conversations. It's been fun. Yeah, it's been

great. And thank you for tuning in again to this

week's episode of Trinity Talks. Go back and

read the Beatitudes and just like think about

all of these things that Christ both calls us

to and gives us as a gift. And as you walk through

life in all of its ups and downs, remember that

God is calling us blessed. We'll see you next

week.