MLK: Jail, Justice and Jesus | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. My name is

Britt. And we are here to talk about... letters,

but also very one specific letter. The Bible

is full of all kinds of different letters that

are written by people to the churches. That's

some of what we're studying in our sermon series

on Sunday mornings. But I want us to fast -forward

quite a bit, a couple thousand years, to 1963,

when Martin Luther King Jr. writes a letter from

a Birmingham jail. That letter is also I think,

a letter to the churches. It's a letter to at

least clergy, to church leaders. Yeah. And so

I think it actually still has a lot of really

helpful things for us to say to us today. So

I know my... Maybe not my first experience of

this letter, but my most meaningful sort of experience

with this letter was actually in Birmingham So

I was there for a conference And at this university

campus that I was on in their library They had

a whole display about the letter from Birmingham

Jail. Oh, wow Yeah, and I just like stood in

this library and read this letter and as I was

reading it I was like was this written 60 years

ago because like this feels very true right now

So yeah, I don't know what your thoughts, how

you sort of approached it. Yeah, no, reading

it back felt like, it felt like Martin Luther

King Jr. is alive today and wrote it to us now.

It felt very, yeah, it felt modern in so many

ways. Yeah, and then just to think that he was

writing it. in a jail at that time. Like at the

end, I think he kind of like, it's almost like

sarcasm. He says, I'm sorry, this is so long,

but I'm in jail. Got nothing better to do. Yeah,

there's so much humanity wrapped up in it. It's,

yeah, it took me for a spin, but it felt, it

felt so, felt so modern that it almost didn't

feel like I was reading something back from the

1960s, which is Yeah, fascinating for me. It

is, yeah. For folks who don't know, it was written

in 1963 in a Birmingham jail. That's what it's

called, the letter from the Birmingham jail.

At that time, actually in the letter, King describes

Birmingham as one of the most segregated cities

in America. He's been arrested for being part

of a public demonstration there to oppose segregation.

And he's writing actually predominantly to eight

white clergy who have written this open letter

that was then published in a newspaper criticizing

this civil rights movement and saying, this is

not the right time. You're not really going about

this the right way. And there's a lot of fear

of, is this breaking down our Christian witness

by creating these tensions between the white

church and the black church. Yeah, and that's

sort of the context that he's addressing. But

yeah, as you were reading the letter, were there

any particular parts that stood out to you? Yeah,

I think the part that stood out to me the most

was like at the the the reason for the letter

was because, as you said, the saying the method

and the timing is of their action was was wrong.

And I feel like King really gets at when is the

right time, what is the right method to go about

creating change or being a Christian witness.

And I was constantly challenged by that. It took

me back to thinking of the things that are happening

in our world today. in the many ways that it

is so much, it actually almost reminded me of

a letter to the Church of Laodicea with like,

I would rather you be hot or cold. And it felt

like he was speaking to me and saying like, choose

a side. In fact, maybe if there's not just one

or the other, but there is, I think he describes

it as like this perfect way. And that really

sat with me. What are Christians called to do?

How are we called to witness? And when are we

called to witness? And how do we challenge the

norms in our society to actually live into our

call? Talking like that was also one of the parts

that really like stood out to me was You know

that he talks about like the Yeah, they're there.

That's the part I was looking for he so he says

I've reached the almost regrettable conclusion

that the Negro's great stumbling block in the

stride towards freedom is not in the white citizen's

counselor or in the KKK, but in the white moderate

who is devoted to order more than justice, who

prefers a negative peace, which is the absence

of tension, to a positive peace, which is the

presence of justice. Shallow understanding from

people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute

misunderstanding from people of ill will. That

whole section there really jumped out to me.

Who am I? Where do I fit in this? You can deal

with passion on either side. If somebody's really

passionate for a cause, you can work with that

energy. If someone is really passionate against

a cause, obviously that's not... Ideal but like

at least there's like an energy there. I know

where you stand Yeah, I know where you stand

and I know like I know not to like try and trust

you right, but like for someone who's just like

Yeah in the middle then it's like there's no

energy there to work with there's no sense of

like like I It's unpredictable. Yes, and then

the other thing like I so he he gets at the the

clergy that wrote this this letter that he's

responding to Uh, and there was a point where

he does commend them for the things that they,

that they did do. Um, but it's almost as though

they were willing to go, they weren't willing

to go the full way. And in that, that maybe almost

reminds me of like, if I'm going to stretch it

a little bit, the rich young ruler who was willing

to do some things, but that, that I keep coming

back to that perfect way. That was the part that

kept the rich, the rich young ruler didn't want

to go the full mile that Jesus was calling them

into. And I could foresee, I see that in the

way that those men, I'm assuming they're all

men, 60s. But in that same way, I feel like they

were willing to do some things. So maybe in their

local congregation, I think two of them had ended

the practice of her segregation within their

local congregation. But even that King says is

not enough. Because what is the sense? Yes, you're

able to have worship within your congregation,

but you still have this whole other realm where

people are treated as less than human beings.

And so for King, it's like it's not enough to

do the bare minimum. And I think that's the that

piece about lukewarmness. It's like I'll just

do a little bit. I don't want to ruffle the feathers

as too much. But yeah, they weren't willing to

do the hard thing, the thing that costs you something.

I sit in my seat and I'm like, yeah, no, no,

no. I could see how that is something that...

I today could have issues with. And he doesn't

just talk about the white moderates, right? He

talks about the, in explaining the plight and

the struggle of African Americans, he does talk

about the different positions or groups that

they would have fallen into in the 60s. So you

have the ones who were... who were so used to

oppression that they just they just saw it as

normal and didn't even fight against it. And

then you had the other the second group who he

described as like academics and maybe business

people who had because they had that social access,

and they probably had some sort of financial

gain in the social structure of segregation,

they were willing to just let it be because there's

something in it for me. I think a lot of us,

for many of us who are middle class, that is

a thing that tends to happen. I could see myself

in that. And then you have the what he described

as black nationalists, folks that were that they

at the end of the day, they were like, you know,

I don't believe that these white men are going

to change their minds. I don't believe that the

system is going to change. So there's going to

be devils and we're just going to have to do

what we got to do. And I could see all of like,

I see us in those camps. And I don't think he's

calling for us to be any three of those. So in

the same way, he's not calling for us to be extreme

clansmen or moderates. I think King was just

saying be a Christian. Right. Like just be a

Christian. Anyway. Yeah, no, no, that's so interesting

that. Yeah, because I think it is helpful to

like draw some parallels to the way of Jesus

in this, because like obviously that is. sort

of what is calling him is Christ, and he's very

upfront about that. Yeah, and just that sense

that Jesus is constantly disturbing the peace,

right? And showing up and doing the things that

are not expected, hanging out with the people

that are on the margins, and doing that to the

point of death. And so, yeah, there's a cost.

Like, if we're following Jesus, and Jesus is

an example, like, there was so much cost to him.

And so, obviously, there's cost to us. And then,

yeah, so the question then becomes like, if I'm

not experiencing a cost, like, am I? faithfully

following Jesus. Now that feels also like a slippery

slope. Cause like, I don't, I don't want to say

that the way that in order to be a faithful Christian,

you like have to be suffering. Cause like, let's

not all run out and chase suffering. Um, but

like there is something about following the way

of Jesus that just is gonna set you apart in

some way and like alienate you from some people,

I think. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much tension

in all of it. A word he used often as well. Yeah,

that word tension, in my gut, I hear tension

and I want to hide away from it because it feels

like I'm a conflict -avoiding kind of person

most of the time. And so tension just doesn't

feel good. But the point that that Martin Luther

makes is that tension can be positive. He talks

about it being like the gadflies that bite an

animal and get them doing a thing. And that's

what tension should be. It's not that it's tension

for tension's sake. It's not for the sake of...

stirring up stuff. It's for the sake of moving

something forward and like drawing attention

to things that otherwise we might ignore, especially

if you're sitting in a seat of privilege, especially

or if you're like benefiting from the status

quo or just like not negatively impacted by the

status quo. Right? Yeah. So that leads me to

think of his, like when he's talking about direct

action. And I guess the question that was posed

to him in the original letter was that not right

way, not right time, why not use negotiation?

And he says, well, they're not willing to negotiate.

And he gets into something that I actually think

in a lot of protest movements that I've witnessed,

a tool that they use very often. It doesn't necessarily

happen within our Christian context as much,

but it's something that I've seen where you can't

get a group to be in conversation with you in

good faith. So you create that tension, those

conditions for tension, so you can have that

discourse in a meaningful way, one that gets

people to really listen. It's in the inconvenience,

in the... like there's so much examples that

we've seen. In that inconvenience, I can get

you to face the reality. And I thought it was

fascinating how he compared the tension that

that direct action creates for predominantly

white folks in Alabama or created for white folks

in Alabama to the tension that he describes for

his children. And it's it awoken something into

me. Like he said, he talked about his daughter

and how his daughter has to deal with that tension.

Right. When she looks at the amusement park advertisement

and she's like, I want to go there. And he has

to tell her, well, no, colored people are not

allowed there. And then he talks about his son

and he gives another example and he says, well,

and now he, and he talks about how like that

tension creates something. It creates, he now

he has to try and shift that energy that his

daughter and his son have that could brew hate,

which he explicitly says it's like it's a natural

consequence. So it's like the idea of everyone

will experience tension. Tension is something

that happens in relationship. So we avoid it.

And I guess the if we're going to actually try

and maintain human relationship, then the right

thing to do is to just Do the direct action and

make it happen, right? Which is uncomfortable,

but I think it does push us to a place where

We can be in relationship with each other because

I think what we're doing is we're trying to avoid

it, right? Yeah, and I wonder if like part of

what direct action does is it? Creates the tension

like earlier Yeah, I could then like like because

if in the example of these kids if they are,

you know experiencing this tension and then they

grow up and grow into a sense of greater tension

and alienation and maybe even hate or anger towards

others, then that's going to be something that

then blows up and gets bigger over time. Whereas

direct action says, let's not move towards that

inevitable. Let's throw the tension in your face

right now so that we can deal with it before

we get to hating each other or before we all

get there anyway. Before we all get there, because

the reality is that many people had already gotten

there. Totally. Um, and there's a whole other

ecosystem in the sixties, uh, filled with black

national movements and a lot of that created

a lot of violence. Um, and what King is saying

is like, I understand how that violence is created

and it's not created in a vacuum. It's created

because of those early, those early narratives,

those early experiences of children. Uh, and

he uses his kids as a perfect example, I think.

Um, and yeah, like I think we have to deal with

tension. If we're going to be in relationship

with each other, we have to let tension exist.

So if we are in conflict with each other, then

we need to be able to tackle that right on. And

if we see that there are inklings of maybe someone

trying to avoid that tension, then maybe the

good thing to do is to just say, you know what,

I'm going to take up a little bit of space so

that we can have this conversation in a way that

is like it doesn't have to be like his example

is direct his example in that particular situation

the government was not listening the community

was not listening and they didn't have to listen

because they were creating more and more roadblocks

for them to be even be able to vote or to be

able to access services And that's so what he

does is an extreme. And he sees it as something

like, yes, this is inconvenience, this is extreme.

But I think in our one -to -one relationships,

and I think he rightfully points out Martin Buber

and uses that I and thou, I it relationship dynamic

to say, if we are humans, if you believe that

I'm a human and you're a human, if you believe

that you're a child of God, I'm a child of God,

then we need to be in conversation with each

other. And you need to be able to hear and understand

my plight. And that is, that is tough. It's uncomfortable.

I hate doing it. Sure. But I know that if I'm

going to be in relationship in community with

people, if I'm going to say I love you and I

care for you, and that's also what he gets at

too, then I need to be able to. I need to be

able to just let tension be so it could escape

in some way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think

people use this analogy when they're talking

about anger. You bottle it up inside for so long,

and then at some point, it's going to explode.

And that is true on lots of different levels.

it is that tension that builds up that we need

to find healthy ways of releasing. And sometimes

I think when people think about healthy ways

of releasing anger, they think about like, okay,

so don't direct it towards people at all. And

like, maybe, but maybe it means I direct, I talk

to you about my anger without exploding at you.

Right? And maybe it means like, Because especially

if the conditions are such that like the thing

that I'm angry about is just going to continually

be true like it's it's one thing if somebody

does something that like Frustrates me and then

it's over but like if that is how society is

structured to constantly frustrate me then like

that's a bigger problem. Yeah. Yeah So I guess

the other part that I'm curious. Yeah, it was

like his conversation on laws. And that was also

when I was like, I was tussling as I was reading

it. Like, what do you do? And I think the example

he gave was right. I think it's true for all

time. And he uses Nazi Germany as an example.

And I thought that was a perfect example for

that. That's one that our society tends to see

is very white and black. There's not much unless

we're, I don't know, upside down, where that's

going to be a challenge in that way. So just

to then clarify there, what he said was that

we can never forget that everything that Hitler

did in Germany was legal, and everything that

the freedom fighters did was illegal. But that

doesn't make it actually right. There were laws

that made it possible for Nazi Germany to exist,

but that doesn't mean that that was... Good.

Yeah. But then he puts himself, I think what's

easy for us, it's easy for us to talk about things

as abstract or outside of ourselves. And I found

the way that he put himself in the story. And

he asks, he says, would I have done, if I was

in Nazi Germany, what would have been my reaction

to those laws? Would I have respected them? Or

as a Christian? would I have seen them as unjust

and what I have done?" I think he describes it

as the perfect way. I think he used that word.

I think that's the word he used. But yeah, I

think for more and more of us, and I was challenged

by this, how do I put myself outside of just

saying, because that's the moderate response.

The moderate response is to see something and

say, that's wrong, and then walk away. The minimum

is to just say, this is wrong. But he's saying

the Christian response is to follow actually

the moral law, the law of God, and to do something.

Just because something's on the books doesn't

mean I have to agree with it. Actually, I should

challenge it through my understanding of God's

laws. And that should be the guide for how I

make my decisions. and what I do in that context.

But that's hard to insert ourselves. That was

a self -exercise we did often. I don't know if

it challenged you in that way. Yeah, totally.

It's really interesting to think about some of

these examples that are so... practical and so

like life or death because like I have heard

lots of preachers talk about this idea that like

God's law is is the the preeminent law and so

like human laws should you know align with that

but if they don't follow God's law but usually

what they're talking about are like things that

seem less important to me. They're talking about

the way that you spend your time or your money.

They're talking about whether we should vote

this way or that way. These are important things,

but in this context, it's like, no, are you following

God's law of love and life? Or are you following

this in the example of Nazi Germany, this other

law that literally leads to death? Yeah, and

so I think sometimes we overcomplicate God's

law. Especially if we look at Scripture in the

Old Testament, God's law can seem really complicated.

There's like 600 or so of these laws, and we're

like, oh yeah, so we can't possibly follow all

of them, so let's just throw them out. But Jesus

then summarizes God's law as love. Love God.

love your neighbor as yourself. This is the law

and the prophets according to G -List. It's hard,

but it's not complicated. But it gets complicated

when you have something to lose, right? And I

do see how that can be challenging when doing

the right thing could mean that I could lose

my job. Or I could lose my friends or my family

members. And that happened for some people. Some

of the people that Martin Luther King describes

in the letter as, I guess today we call them

white allies in the story. He names them out.

And if you look at their stories, they went through

a lot. They were demonized and blacklisted. And

those types of things happen to those people.

So, are we willing to let that happen to us?

Let the pieces fall where they may. Martin Luther

King Jr. was labeled, if I'm not wrong, was labeled

almost like a terrorist and was watched by the

FBI. Are we willing to do the right thing at

that cost? There's so many things I think we

weigh against when it comes time to do the right

thing. It's like, well, we're thinking about

things I think are reasonable to an extent if

we're thinking of, OK, well, I might lose my

house. If I lose my job, I lose my house. I can't

feed my kids. And those are things that I think

can be pretty typical for us to think of or we

can define it as reasonable. Am I really trusting

God if I believe that God can really hold all,

can control my circumstance or be there for me

in times of need? Then do I really trust God?

And I do believe because he was writing in the

jail. That was not his first show. He trusted

God to hold him in the tension that existed in

his wider society. that led to tension in his

home, that led to tension within his community.

He held on to God and believed God and trusted

God. And he speaks about those other individuals

that did the same thing. He talks about Abraham

and he talks about his namesake, Martin Luther.

And he talks about Paul and he talks about these

people that said, you know, I'm going to trust

God anyway and I'm going to do the thing that

God has called me to do. which is to seek justice,

to love mercy. I talked about Amos. He named

all these great giants that did lose something

when they did the thing that God called them

to do, when they chose God's law over the law

of the land. People have done it. He's done it.

He's calling us. He's calling those ministers

he was writing to, and I believe he's calling

us to follow God, to listen to God, to not be

lukewarm. Yeah. It's interesting because I feel

like there's one sense in which none of this

makes sense without faith. Right? And that's

not to say that people who aren't Christians

or people who aren't people of faith can't join

in these movements. They definitely can. But

there's something about being a person of faith

and saying, I trust God. I'm following the way

of Jesus. I don't know, it adds some weight to

it. And it adds some grounding to it, I think.

Right? Because it's not like, oh, I'm just doing

this because I personally believe in this set

of ethics or I personally believe in these things

that have led me to want to do this. It's like,

no, I believe in the God of the universe. I believe

in the sovereign Lord who is over all of this

and in all of this. And so, on the one sense,

that means it's not... up to me, right? I don't

have to control the outcome of this movement

or this action. And if this action ends up in

the way that is not ideal for me, I have something

to fall back on, which is God. And that doesn't

always mean physical comfort and safety, right?

He talks about the early Christians who were

thrown to the lions for disobeying Caesar's law

and these things, right? It's not going to...

Turn out comfy cozy. No, but it is. There's still

something good about it. Yeah. Cause great is

your reward in heaven. I agree with you. Like

there's that grounding. Cause I look at a lot

of our movements today and I see, I see so much

despair. Um, it doesn't feel like And I'm generalizing,

but it doesn't seem like folks are hopeful for

something. I asked myself the question of, okay,

yes, we're tearing something down, but what are

we building? And I think Martin Luther King Jr.

knew what he was building. He knew what he was

building was, he was ushering in the kingdom

of God for all people at all times. And I yeah,

I think that is something that we need to hold

into. Like he's in his letter. I don't think

it's. And I was sure I shared the letter with

someone recently, and I was I was saying, you

know, like there's so much in our so much in

our world is pushing us to be like to pick a

side, pick a lane, pick a cause, do this. And

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I hear

you. But. He's not calling any of those. He didn't

call those people to pick a left or a right.

He called them to pick Jesus, pick Jesus fully.

And that is, I think that's the harder thing

to do. I think it's easier to pick those spots.

And then in both spots, I think you choose anger

or you choose numbness. But that's not the way

of Jesus. There's something hopeful and grounding,

as you said, that is in that, that keeps you.

I don't know if you've seen the footage from

some of the footage that they have when they

were marching. And I often look back at some

of the footage where you see the police brutality

and you see their faces, how solid they were.

There's something horrific is happening to them.

They're just so resolute that they're going to

just stand their ground and do the thing that

they came to do. They never shout back. They

never hit back. They're just solid. And how were

they capable of doing that? I can only see that

Jesus had to be with them in that moment to make

them feel like they could do it. Yeah, I think

it brings this letter into conversation with

like the I have a dream speech in some sense,

because it is the dream. Like there is that thing

that we're working towards. And I think if it's

only we're running away from something, we're

afraid of something. You know, segregation is

bad, obviously. In the modern day, you know,

like climate change, whatever it is, like all

of these things that we are trying to push back.

It's like, OK, sure, push back. But like, what

are you pushing? towards. Yeah. And if you don't

have something you're going towards, then like,

I don't know, it just you it I think it's harder

than to stand your ground. Yeah, especially when

you see major setbacks. Yeah. And he saw many

of those. But with the context with the context

of knowing, having that grounding, I think it

It gives you the space, even in the midst of

the setbacks, in the midst of further oppression,

to be able to stay focused. And I see that. I

feel like this letter took me places because

it's the encouragement I think we need to see

today. And that's why I felt like it was like,

is he right? Did he write this just yesterday

and pen it for the New York Times or something?

Like, who wrote this? Like in 1960s, it doesn't

make any sense. But I think there's its principle,

right? Like throughout time. And that's why he's

able to. echo back or reflect back to scriptural

time or to the 1940s and years gone by because

it's a principle. It's not. Because political

positions sway and they move and popular opinion

sways and it moves. But yeah, if we're getting

back to what he talks about, like the laws, like

God's law stays forever and the principles that

Jesus has set out for us. those remain. They're

not time -bound. They are, I'm looking for my

theological word, but I don't have it. They're

trans -cultural, and they push beyond what we

currently know, and they remain consistent. Yeah,

because it's Jesus. And Jesus is the same yesterday,

today, and forever, but not in a boring way.

In a just like always relevant way. Which then

makes me think about this other line that really

stood out to me in the letter where Martin Luther

King was talking about, you know, if the church

doesn't address the issues of the day. And in

his day, that was segregation. There's, we could

insert lots of other things in our day, but if

the church is not addressing the issue of the

day, then we risk becoming what he called an

irrelevant social club. And when I read that,

I was like, wow, so many of my peers would sit

and say, the church is pretty irrelevant. And

people just like go there and hang out and then

they go back and do their lives. But like, meh,

it hasn't changed anything. Um, yeah. So like,

when I read that, I was like, Oh, so has the

church, the church has been waning towards irrelevancy

for a while. And that's scary. But also I don't

think it's universally true, right? Like I think

there are local churches, there are people following

Jesus who are desperately trying to be relevant

and who I think are doing that well. But it's

not it. It's not always the norm, I guess. Well,

then this is what I would say for like, how do

you do that? Well, and I think at the crux of

the letter, I feel like he's calling people into

relationship into a deeper listening. And I think

if the church churches that do that, well, our

churches that prioritize relationships, prioritize

deep relationship, prioritize Not just doing

a program. Forget our Sunday production. That's

not the focus. The focus is being in a relationship

with each other to build a stronger kingdom.

And I think that's where... we get it wrong because

we push away these issues that people are dealing

with in their day to day. I remember he talked

about the experiences that his children were

going through. If we were to ignore those things

within our Christian community and we didn't

create space to hear those stories and to share

in the carrying of those burdens, then yeah,

it would become irrelevant because we're not

tapped in. If I don't know what my brother or

sister or sibling is going through, how can I

be in relationship with them? Yeah, I think that's

one thing that I think is just I think could

be really beautiful from like the pen pal writing

series is that it could push us into even deeper

relationship because we're forced something about

letter writing is you're forced to listen. Yeah,

you can't. pause the letter and start talking.

You just need to listen. You need to listen.

And yeah, I think that is, if the church is going

to become relevant, then we need to be able to

listen. We need to put aside the program. And

I, all I do is program design. That's it. So

I'm like, I know, I know, I know we need to,

we have a timeline. We need to get out the door.

Like I get it. But if we're not in conversation

with each other, then what's going to happen

is there's going to be a moment where we're faced

with it head on. And that's going to be uncomfortable.

And it's going to be disruptive. And he even

says it could even be dangerous. And the church

doesn't want to be in that mix. We want to be

in the mix of creating further spaces for dialogue

so people can be heard. can be valued. I think

in its micro level like this, if we can start

doing that within... uh, our local, uh, parishes

and churches, then the ripple effects, that exercise,

that ripple effect will just, it can carry in

large ways. And that I think will, a church that's

less, um, a part of the solution of a church

that's less, uh, uh, irrelevant. Yeah. No, that's

so interesting. Cause I just think like, Sometimes

when churches think about oh, we're losing our

relevance. They think us we need to like Learn

the hip language of the youth. Yeah, or we need

to like talk about Minecraft or I don't know

whatever the quotes. Yeah, I am irrelevant because

I don't know what the kids are talking about

these days Minecraft. Yeah, okay Great like but

like we think like that's the like that's how

we be relevant. But actually What about the like

deeper human need? Mm -hmm for just like community.

Right? If the church is not meeting that basic

need, then we become irrelevant. Yeah. Because

like, actually, I think one of the things that

Jesus was all about was building community, being

in relationship, spending time just like getting

to know people and then like walking with them

on the path towards life. Yeah. And so like,

that's relevance. Yeah. So then the question

is, do I know, do I truly understand the plight

of my brother? Because if I do, I think this

is what he's getting at. If you do, then you

would understand why I've taken these actions.

I think what he's getting at, and he is Martin

Luther King Jr., I feel like, so rude saying

he. But what he's getting at in that is, it's

clear to me that while you're well -meaning,

And I like he said he starts things like I don't

even like usually comment on like criticism.

Yeah. But I I see you as as brothers. And I think

you're genuine. So I'm going to entertain you.

Yeah. But I'm also going to call you out and

say that you truly don't understand what that

people like him with what the Negro is experiencing

because you haven't actually taken the time to

to listen or to see us fully. Yeah. Because if

they were seeing them fully, they would see,

yeah, there's actually no space for them to actually

have this conversation or to create change. And

there's not enough people actually trying to

push that so that change can happen. Yeah. So

yeah, like, do we really know? And I don't think

I can answer for myself. I can say that I don't

truly know my figurative brother or sister as

well as I should do it. Like if I know someone

enough, I should know them enough to see their

painfully. Yeah. It shouldn't come as a surprise

when they make it known. Yeah. And yeah, I. I

don't think we exercise that anymore as a larger

society and that's echoed into our church or

now it's extended into the church. Yeah. Yeah.

Totally. Yeah. So I feel like we've covered a

wide range of things. There's a lot, a lot of

stuff to sort of pull out of this letter. So

I want us to sort of focus in on our last little

bit here, but like what's like one or two things

that you're like taking away from this letter

that you're like, this is like a point that I

want to focus on. So I think one of the things

for me is just recognizing that there is a lot

of fear and anger and yeah, mostly fear and anger,

but some hurt that that exists in our society

right now. And I want to It's not that I ignore

that, but it's so overwhelming that sometimes

I feel like I just am not keeping up. What I'm

reading, what I'm pulling out of this is just

that sense of how do I check in with the people

who are experiencing some of that? Not that I

need to be up on all of the news headlines or

all of the policy decisions. whatever is happening

in the world, but like, am I checking in with

my queer siblings? Am I checking in with the

people of color, the immigrants, the people that

I know who are afraid, who are hurting right

now? Because I think even if I can't fix it,

I can take some space to hold that, I think.

I'm challenged. There was a sermon that I listened

to this week where this pastor said he's overwhelmed

in relation to all the things that's happened

in this world as of recent. And I echo that.

I echo that. In many ways, I do feel overwhelmed

by what we see. But I'm also encouraged in knowing

the end of the story. that should give me, I

think, greater desire to usher that in. So in

reading his letter, I feel like I'm being called

into less complacency or neutrality and one that

chooses God every single moment. chooses the

perfect way, chooses the way that that that God

desires to seek justice, to love mercy, to walk

humbly. Like those are the ways that I think

if I could, yeah, all three of those altogether

at the same time. Yeah, because I even in my

own life, like when he was depicting like that,

those groups, I felt like I felt like he was

talking to me in many ways. And I'm like, okay,

When you have power, you should do something

with it. And Martin Luther King Jr. showed us

what he did with that power, with the influence

that he had and how he called people to see the

power that they had within them. Even people

that were extremely oppressed saw the power that

they had and they did something. And if they

could do that, then I should do that and I can

do that. because that's what God desires of us.

Knowing the whole story, but not feeling like,

okay, well, it's going to happen. Right. Yeah.

It's somewhere in between where it's a little

bit of an urgency, a little bit of a like, hey,

there's work to do, but not, hey, there's so

much work to do that it all falls on me. Yeah.

It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to fall on

me. Because in really in community we are in

relationship and We should we should be able

to do it together. Yeah, we're never doing it

alone Yeah, great letter totally letter totally.

Yeah. Yeah, just again, like I think I just keep

coming back to this like 60 year old letter that

like it still speaks. Yeah, and like I'm not

going to call it scripture because that seems

like a bit much, but in the same way that scripture

is this ancient thing that still speaks today,

this is a letter that still speaks today. Not

the Word of God, but I think God is speaking

through it. Yeah, yeah. And you know, like, 63,

1963, that's the year my dad was born. OK. So

it's not that he's not that old. It's not that

far. It's not that far. But it does put things

in context. Yes, like where we've where we've

gone, where we're going and what God has in store

for us. So, yeah, the arc of the moral universe

is long. It bends towards justice. Yeah, not

by itself. Not by itself. No, by the hand of

God and the work of God's people. Amen. Yes,

I like that. Very cool. Thank you so much. Thank

you. And thank you for tuning in to this week's

episode of Trinity Talks. Wherever you find yourself,

on any political spectrum, on any sense of fear

or joy or whatever's happening in the world,

I pray that God meets you there, and I pray that

you are able to find your calling to use the

power, the gifts that God has given you to do

God's work in the world. And we'll see you again

next week.