Ray Aldred: We Need New Stories For Healing | Trinity Talks Podcast

Thank you for joining us for this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm excited

to be sitting down today with Ray Aldred, who

is an indigenous theologian and a professor at

the Vancouver School of Theology. And we're going

to be talking a little bit about truth and reconciliation,

and in particular, what this National Day of

Truth and Reconciliation means for us in Canada

and for us as followers of Christ. And so thank

you for joining me, Ray. It's good to be here.

Yeah, maybe you can start by just telling us

a little bit about your story and what led you

into your work as a pastor and as a theologian.

Well, I was born in northern Alberta around Grand

Prairie. My mom was from the Swan River territory,

Swan River Band, which is in north of Edmonton,

about four hours. So. I grew up and experienced

all of the kind of negative attitude Canada had

against indigenous people, which was prevalent

when I was growing up. I grew up in the 60s and

70s. And back then, the only time I ever remember

anything to do with indigenous people usually

was if we were a problem to be solved. And so

that was usually how the press played it up.

So... or you grow up with this ambivalence about

your identity, you feel ashamed for who you are.

And then on the other hand, you kind of think

you hope there might be something good about

who you were. Sure, yeah. So, but no, I got into

the wrong stuff when I was younger and ended

up. having this born -again experience when I

was 19 years old, where I said to God, I said,

if you're up there, I will do anything you ask

me to if you help me quit using drugs. So then

I've been sober since then, was when I was 19.

And then I felt a call into ministry right away,

but drug addicts are megalomaniacs. So I thought

I'm not going to make these. I'm not going to

know. I'm not going to be a minister. I'm just

going to volunteer, go to church, take care of

my family. Yeah. And which meant getting married

to the woman I was living with. So we have this

born again experience on October the 1st and

then I got married on October the 13th. Wow.

We got married and we were both 19. And then

I just continued to work in the forest industry.

And then when I was 28, I thought, well, this

feeling hasn't gone away. So I'm going to go

to study theology. So I did. I was 20 years old.

Did an undergrad degree. While I was in my third

year, I started pastoring a... First Nations

Church, the First Nations Alliance Church of

Regina, Saskatchewan. And that's when I started

hearing all the stories about the residential

school. My mom didn't have to go to residential

school, but my aunties did. But I don't know,

they never talked about it. But in Regina, I

started to hear about it. And I don't know, maybe

when you're a kid you hear bad stuff and you

see bad stuff and you just block it out. Yeah,

could be. But I started to hear that and then

I started to wonder what we could do different.

Sure. And so we started to think about, I remember

in 1990, the Oka crisis. That's the first time

I remember reconciliation was like, that was

something that people, that word started to get

thrown around. Sure. Probably before that was

justice. Like what exactly is justice supposed

to be? So anyways, I ended up doing some degrees.

I've been in school forever. Okay. Anyways, I

eventually ended up in the Anglican Church. That

was later, though. But always it was about the

journey of reconciliation. So I'm going to say

that that journey really started in Canada, the

recent ones. It probably started before then,

but in 1990 when the Oka crisis happened, that's

when suddenly Canadians realized, okay, everything

isn't warm and fuzzy. Right, yeah. And there's

some stuff going on. And so then the Royal Commission

on Aboriginal People was struck and there's like

4 ,000 pages. But then in 1995, Dudley George

is killed at Hipperwash. September, 1995, I think.

And then in December, But even prior to that,

a bunch of us met in Winnipeg and we talked about

being agents of reconciliation and what that

meant. And then 1995 was Elijah Harper called

the Sacred Assembly. And there was a statement

of reconciliation that came out of that. Stuff

continued to happen. First Nations started to

take Canada to court. or residential schools.

Well, it wasn't just First Nation. Métis had

been stuck in them too, some of them. And then

1998, Canada issued a statement on reconciliation.

In the 80s, you know, different denominations

apologized. United Church, Presbyterian, eventually

the Anglicans would apologize too. And then 1998...

statement of reconciliation. And then different

things started to happen. Eventually in 2008,

Stephen Harper declares, he apologizes. He apologizes

to the survivors in the residential schools.

And then that leads to the Truth and Reconciliation

Commission. And that leads to several meetings

across Canada. This whole time people were trying

to talk. We're trying to really do three things

And they all flow out of restorative justice.

We're trying to tell the truth So you create

places that people can tell the truth. Yep, but

what really happened and you do that so that

People can hear they can listen and have it break

their heart. Yeah because unless you feel the

damage that was done, then you won't have the

emotional strength to actually change. You actually

need those negative emotions. They actually give

you the energy to change. Right. If you don't

just try to avoid them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You

need that impetus, right? Yes. And then, uh,

and then the, uh, 2000, like 2015, right? The

final report of the TRC and then since that just

talking at different places when I have the opportunity

to talk about what it would look like mm -hmm

We reconciled so tell the truth really listen

come up with a shared plan That third thing is

what we're trying to find right now. We're trying

to come up with a shared plan. Yep So yeah, I

don't know that's a long answer. No, no that

but that that's a really helpful overview. I

think Yeah, and Like, what has your sort of ministry

looked like in all of that? Yeah, how have you

sort of journeyed through that? Well, I end up

doing a variety of things, but there's kind of

three sort of things. I mean, as a theologian,

I ended up, because I did the tip. degree in

theology so that what theology I don't know I

always thought of theology trying to provide

eloquent solutions to sort of things okay not

solutions but ways forward maybe sure you kind

of give people a theological support for some

movements that need to happen and you also need

to critique popular theology because these popular

ideas spring up that aren't very helpful yep

When it comes to people who have suffered abuse,

one of the things that doesn't help people is

telling them they just need to forgive. Like

that doesn't help anybody. Or that they just

need to love, or that they just need a deeper

spiritual experience or something. That doesn't

help anybody. So you have to try to help people

develop a theology that fits better where they

find themselves. Sure. So I tried to do that

in developing a better theology of creation.

Okay. And showing that really salvation and reconciliation

are all about what have always been God's plan

for creation. God's plan for creation is to move

from, you know, the initial immaturity of creation

to a point when creator and creation meet in

perfect harmony. And we see that in Jesus Christ,

who is fully God, so creator, fully human, so

creation. In Christ, creator and creation meet

in perfect harmony. So then following like the

early theologians, Irenaeus, for example, uh

what christ does is sets creation back on the

right path again and so then all of ministry

really fits within joining creator on this path

of creation right just seeing all things reconciled

creator and creation made in perfect harmony

i did that because uh We weren't developing a

real good theology for why we need to work against

climate change. Sure. And we also weren't figuring

things why it's bad to damage the earth. So then

one of the things that we were doing was you

got to heal the land. So then thinking through

that, but that also involved healing the land

also involved things like having a process to

help communities who find unmarked graves. And

that happens in almost every indigenous community

around the world. Sure. So then, and work towards,

you know, food security that fits under, that

fits under, deal the land. And then the other

kinds of things that we're doing was to help

people develop their emotional literacy or their

emotional intelligence by helping doing some

training around trauma. OK. So when it comes

to, again, because of abuse and trauma, what

happens is, and because it's ongoing, we need

to have some better coping strategies. Sure.

Like if you think about it, using drugs and alcohol

as a coping strategy, the reason people do that

is because it works for a time. It's like medicine.

It does what it's supposed to do. But it gets

out of control. So we need a better coping strategy.

So we developed a program called Enanamoen with

Rochelle's... Mom came up with that word. And

in Oji Kri, their language, it means the feelings

that we have in our heart. So we tried to do

some training where people could build, we tried

to give people the tools to create a small group

where people could talk about what was really

going on inside. And so then teaching people,

so then the work of reconciliation was to teach

people how to be good listeners. Right. And then

help people that could help people work through

the pain in their soul. Right. Modern Western

society lies to people. And it says that you

can do it all by yourself. You can't. Yeah, nobody.

Nobody can. Independence is I suppose a step.

Everybody when they're growing up becomes, you

know, you go through this independent stage where

you gotta kind of launch out on your own for

a time. But it's really, maturity is learning

to be dependent upon others. So, and emotional

intelligence is just helping people develop ways

that they could listen to others. Excuse me.

So workshops about suicide prevention, again,

coping strategies in midst of trauma, grieving

seminars, a variety of things, all kinds of stuff

like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like that all

feels really important. And I think like it feels

helpful to me that you've like grounded it really

well, you know, that it's not just It's not just

about feelings although the feelings are important

like it's also about you know the connection

to land and about the connection to God and to

other people and I think all of that helps bring

it together really well And the third kind of

thing we do is trying to Create a theology and

we're trying to write a new story for Canada

because the old one doesn't work all the time

sure I mean, I remember there was this little

vignette that was around just around the end

of Stephen Harper's time. He used to go to the

theater and they'd have these little vignettes

before the movie. And I remember one of them

when I was living in Calgary was they had, they

just found these, the wreckage of that Explorer.

Oh, what was his name? He was an Arctic Explorer,

Franklin. Oh, yes. So then remember they found

They found that guy's boat. Mm -hmm all his boat

was sunk and all of his men died and yeah, and

they tell that story we found this boat and then

they at the end they'd say Canada a Nation of

explorers and I thought yeah get lost and die

like What kind of a story is that? Yeah, but

the whole idea that Canada was made simply by

some newcomers is crazy. The story of Canada

is that we made treaty with the newcomers. And

treaty really is becoming relatives. We're affirming

that everybody, indigenous people, and it was

indigenous treaty that Canada was founded upon.

That everyone should have the right or the privilege

of a peaceful existence. That everybody should

have access to the land. That everybody should

be able to eat from the common bowl, as the Haudenosaunee

put it. Right. And that adds up to people and

groups of people should be able to be who they

were created to be. Right. But we live like relatives.

That was the plan. That's the plan that's always

been in Canada. is from Indigenous people. So

Canada has always been a project of Indigenous

and newcomers. It's always been that way. So

that's the other kind of thing that you do to

remind people of how we actually came to be here

together in this space. And so we can cast a

vision for unity that doesn't devolve into little

sectarian groups like this denomination or that

denomination. understanding that it's about the

fact that creators put us here and our job is

to that the earth to draw forth when the earth

what's best and to draw forth from one another

what's best that's really about yeah so that's

kind of the three kinds of things i end up doing

yeah no that's very cool um so Where does your

work with the Vancouver School of Theology sort

of fit into that? You're doing this indigenous

studies program. So what does that look like?

And how is that different from other sort of

theological education programs? Well, the whole

thing started goes back to well, I don't know

when it started, but I'm going to say it starts

with. The cry from Indigenous people for self

-determination is muffled in Canada until about

the 1970s, well, probably in the late 1950s,

early 1960s. So then there's a law prior to that

that says that Indigenous people can't, you're

not allowed to raise money to take the Canadian

government to court, not until the late 50s.

But in the late 50s and 60s, and then in the

late 60s, 1969, around there, there's a whole

bunch of things that happen that sort of mark

this. It's sort of a significant point because

in the United States, Vine Deloria, whose Episcopal

says, we need more real involvement in the church.

Indigenous people need more real involvement.

And in Canada, there's a guy by the name of Henry

writes a report on what the Anglican Church has

been doing. And he says the same thing. He says

Anglican Church in Canada needs to stop treating

indigenous people like their children. They need

to rethink everything that they do. And both

in Canada and the United States, there's a group

of people who meet. It's called the Indian Ecumenical

Conference. The first one was either in Montana,

and they meet, and what they say is that you

need to make sure that you make space for indigenous

spirituality, that it's important in its own

right. And so then they call on the church to

do that. And they call, so then out of that,

They have several more meetings. I think they

meet for 15 years. Eventually after the first

one, they end up in Morley, Alberta, which is

the Stony Nakoda territory. A guy by the name

of Chief John Snow, he's critical and all that.

But these different, Frank Thomas, Terry Anderson

had just passed. Frank Thomas, I think is Cherokee,

and Terry Anderson was just, you know, a newcomer

from Canada, his family had grown up in Canada.

And he was teaching at the Vancouver School of

Theology. So out of this, one of the things that

develops is all these different Indigenous voices

talking about holding together Indigenous spirituality,

Christian faith. Out of that comes a call for

the Vancouver School of Theology to be a place

where Indigenous people could come together and

talk about how they do that, how they hold together

Indigenous faith and Christianity, Indigenous

identity and Christian faith. So the program

starts in 1984. Because one thing that's not

happening is Indigenous people aren't getting

ordained to the same rate as non -Indigenous

people. Because the whole process is primarily

about, you know, people who, white, not white,

but newcomer, Euro -Canadian people who, you

know, grew up in cities and stuff, and that the

whole thing is premised around a certain kind

of person that didn't fit Indigenous people.

Sure. So, the call came for the Vancouver School

of Theology to order build a program where indigenous

people could study and be affirmed to be clergy,

to be ordained in an indigenous way. But would

end up with the credentials necessary to be ordained

in different mainline denominations. So that's

how the program started in 1984. We just celebrated

our 40th summer school. Yeah, that's awesome.

So then every summer they'd come together and

courses were provided that tried to figure out

how we do this in an indigenous way. That's what

we started. And then eventually that led to the

MDiv program, Master of Divinity Indigenous,

that sort of was, it wasn't, it was one of the

first They're so commonplace now, but it was

one of the first non -residency required degrees,

master degree degrees in Canada and in the United

States, I think. You didn't have to be here all

the time. The summer school was the only time

we came together, two weeks out of the year.

And then you were taught through distance. Right.

Now we take it for granted, because you and I

are talking on Zoom. But in those days, they'd

box up some cassette tapes, or some VHS tapes,

or some DVDs, and they'd ship them to the person.

And the person would watch those with a mentor

that was appointed to them that lived close to

them. And they would work through these programs.

And then they would get an earned Master of Divinity.

That was the goal. So that's what we're doing.

So then my program, the Indigenous Studies program,

continues to respond to communities how they

think they need. Most communities understand

what they need. But I don't know that most institutions

actually take the time to ask or listen. I mean,

I'm sure everybody does, I suppose, in a way,

but that's kind of what we're doing. That's what

we do. Yeah. And then we use a program that we

call the teaching house that moves around to

go into communities. Because not everybody needs

a master of divinity. Sure. Yeah. But we provide

training. I've already talked about some training

that usually fits in one of those three categories.

We deliver that over two or three days. Right.

Very cool. So what then does like indigenous

theology or indigenous ways of doing theology,

like what does that look like? How might it differ

or how might it be similar to the way that folks

like me newcomers to Canada would do theology?

By and large, most theological training in Canada

is still focused on the competent individual.

Okay. We step back and say, how do we build capacity

in the community? Okay. And when we define community,

we define a geographic area, not just a church

somewhere. Okay. Also, we work closely with churches.

Of course, yeah. But you think about what does

a community, what does it need? What kind of

capacity does it think it wants to develop? And

we don't think primarily in terms of just a competent

individual. Most theological training, because

it's so mixed up with Academy, you know, the

university is all about making superstars. So

we're just... We kind of don't, we don't do that.

Or we don't, that's not the game that we're doing.

Okay. And so then we think about the community.

We try to maintain relationship with the community.

We want to provide training for people so that

they don't break their connection with their

community. Right. So that's one thing that's

different. The other thing that's different is

We just didn't presume upon that people, we were

trying to make people into writing machines.

So then Western society is really a textual society,

but indigenous was more oral. So then we brought

in things, innovations that provided people the

opportunity to give oral presentations and didn't

insist that they learn how to write a paper.

Right. In the same way. Then we were flexible

about dates because everybody, when you're living

in the community, there's stuff that always is

happening. Of course, yeah. So we sort of had

flexible dates. And then we provide a mentor

for every, we tried to provide a mentor for every

student. And a mentor really is about helping

them connect with what they learn in the classroom

with the cultural things that are going on in

the community. Sure. So that's kind of. Yeah.

Yeah, that's really neat. Like I think there

is, I don't think I've sort of thought about

it in those terms before, but I think there is

a sense in which. a lot of academic institutions

are, yeah, trying to create an individual that

then sometimes goes back and serves a community,

but maybe that they're not connected to anymore,

or that they were never connected to in the first

place. Yeah, so doing that formation in community

feels a lot more valuable, I think. Yeah. Brian

Deloria said there's like three things necessary

to develop an indigenous philosophy. Okay. And

I'm not sure if non -Indigenous people can develop

it or not, but this is what he said. Number one,

you have to accept that Indigenous ways of knowing

and understanding are as valid as the newcomer

ways, the Western way of doing things. The West

is really into abstract thought, and Indigenous

people are into concrete concrete kinds of things.

So then you gotta accept that they're different.

So part of what learning is always about learning

how they're different and what difference that

makes. And the second thing you need to embrace

indigenous boundaries. So for example, land and

story are always going to be important in doing

theological education. So how it's related to

the land and how you tell that in a story. So

those are indigenous boundaries. And also, that's

when you have to then you end up having to talk

about trauma, those kinds of numbers. And you

always have to, and then you have to talk about

emotions. Because in indigenous country, emotions

are a valid way of knowing things. They're tricky,

hard to interpret, but they're a valid way of

understanding. Whereas in Western Academy, they

tend to downplay the role of emotion. We tend

to be a bit more suspicious about it. Right,

you're always wanting to get beyond emotion.

And then the third thing Vine Deloria says is

you need to embrace Indigenous communal identity.

So that's why I talk about the treaty. Because

in Canada, we're all treaty people. So a friend

of mine and I wrote a book called Our Home and

Treaty Land. And the fact that Canada's treaty

nation That's what gives Canada, on one level,

the right to exist is because they made treaty

with Indigenous people. So then everyone who

lives here and is a citizen of Canada is bound

by the treaty and must acknowledge the relationship

that they have with Indigenous people. You can't

be in Canada and say you have no relationship

with Indigenous people. You have one. And you

need to learn about it. Yeah, totally. So. Yeah.

So in terms of like in this process of of doing

theological education a bit differently, does

the like content and subject matter differ as

well? Or is it pretty sort of similar to to more

like Western ways of teaching and doing theology?

Well, I think that I suppose there might be,

I don't know. I'm gonna say the differences that

I see are the ones that I've alluded to already.

It's not primarily about getting some stuff into

somebody else. It's not about getting the stuff

in your three ring binder. Of course, you probably

don't use that. But when I was, you know, when

I was taking... theology, the professor would

stand up there and he would lecture from his

three ring binder and then I would write it on

some paper and put it into my three ring binder

and that was the only education. In indigenous

content, one of the mistakes people make is they

think it's primarily about curriculum. So we're

just going to change the curriculum and that'll

make the difference. Right. What you have to

do is you have to make indigenous values and

goals your values and goals. Otherwise, it's

just appropriation. So even during the residential

school years, teachers were told you need to

use more story because that's how indigenous

people learn best from story. Right. So if you're

just making the change by using more stories

so that you can continue to further your goals

and values, then you're not really helping indigenous

people. You're just trying to assimilate them

and you're appropriating an indigenous way of

doing things in that effort. So I think that

if you're actually going to do theological education

different, you have to embrace indigenous values

and goals, which is about strengthening the community

and about understanding the relationships. So

you have to change in your character. It's about

character, not primarily about just doing some

stuff. Sure. So if you really want to develop

an indigenous program in a university, then you've

got to hire indigenous people. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, so it goes back to that call for

then like relationship and like knowing people

and and and yeah, those treaties like you said

that sort of bring us together because otherwise

yeah we can talk about different things or we

can maybe try and do things differently but like

you said if we're not in order to make the goals

and values of indigenous people my goals and

values I need to be in relationship with indigenous

people yes yeah so that's gonna so it's not primarily

but there's got to be a shift So those other

things I talked about, that's all got to be a

part of it. So then the Vancouver School of Theology,

when they went to develop an indigenous studies

program, then they would bring in, they tried

to bring in indigenous instructors, when at all

possible, to teach. Sometimes it was similar

courses, but sometimes they were just kind of

innovative differences. And then they tried to...

make sure that this is all about Indigenous community.

And teach to do it with Indigenous people. When

they could, they've hired an Indigenous director

of the program, so that's me. And then, if at

all possible, I try to hire Indigenous people

to do the teaching. And we try to do it to Indigenous

people. Make sense? That's kind of what we were.

Yeah. So if you think about sort of outside of

academic institutions and back into local churches,

like what does it look like for local churches,

especially churches that don't have a lot of

indigenous people in them, to participate in

truth and reconciliation? I remember back when

the Oka crisis came, I was teaching 1990. So

that would have been, that was part way through.

I was leading an indigenous church in Regina,

but I had lots of younger folk who were. I don't

know, they used to hang out with me, I don't

know why. They were not indigenous, but they

used to hang out. So we'd do stuff together.

And I remember one young guy was working, I think

it was in a hotel in Saskatchewan working the

front desk. Or maybe he was working in the bar,

I can't remember. But he just asked me. what

could he do because people, he'd be working and

people would say all kinds of negative things

about indigenous people. This was a common thing.

Sure. And I remember one time I talked to him,

I says, you know, sometime you could just politely

say to people when they're saying rude things

about indigenous people. You could just point

out that maybe it's not that simple. So then

while I know for you he told me story a while

later that he was in working and someone was

just they were doing a report on the oka crisis

and they were just this person was just Saying

on digits people all they do is complain. What

are they doing? and all he said this young guy

just said He said Excuse me, sir. I think it's

more complicated than that. I think it's more

complicated than what you're saying it is Yeah.

And the person stopped. He didn't argue with

them. Sure. So I think one thing you can do is

just in society, when people say things that

just aren't true, just to say, excuse me, I don't

think that's true. Yeah. I don't think that's

the way it is. I think it's more complicated

than that. And then also to take part in the

celebrations. So digit people, I don't know where

you're living, if you're in Mississauga or wherever

you are. But you know, there's a mall, it's near,

what station is it? What mall is that? In Toronto.

There's a park across from, oh, it's just off

of, oh, I can't remember the name of the station.

Anyways, there's this one park in Toronto where

every September they have a little powwow, an

urban power. At least, I've been to it one time.

You know, powwows, celebrations that Indigenous

communities have, those are for everybody, not

just Indigenous people. And sometimes, you know,

people think, oh, I can't go to that because

it's Indigenous. No, if Indigenous people advertise

something, it's because they want everybody to

go. Just go. You celebrate together, whatever

it is. We will celebrate any victory, no matter

how small, just celebrate. And sometimes there's

protests, things that are helpful. I don't believe

in the violent ones. And there is a point maybe

when, you know, all you're doing is pissing people

off. And I'm not sure how helpful that is. Maybe

it is. I don't know. I've never been big on that.

But, you know, in Vancouver, They had a march

for reconciliation. I think the first one, thousands

of people showed up. And it was overly, and it

helped to strengthen the community. The women

who staged those, you know those, they had those

flash mobs, it was drum. They would do this flash

mob round dance in all the malls. That did something.

Yeah. It reminded people. Our march is about,

I think those things are helpful. Because I think

if we draw attention to those who are marginalized,

that helps everybody. Totally. Yeah. So if we

can do those things, those are good. Yeah. Always

been good. And then another kind of thing that

we could do is Or the best thing is just to engage

anywhere you have a chance. If people put out

a call for some help to do some stuff, then go

and help. I just think that's what changes you.

Yeah. Yeah, it goes back to that relationship

and community, right? And then you could go for

a walk, visit sites where stuff happened. because

sometimes you visit sites and you get a better

understanding of what's going on. You can learn

the history. You know, like in Niagara Falls,

I always got a kick out of that. So it's in Niagara

Falls. There's a friend of mine who lives down

there. He's not indigenous, but he grew up there.

So then they have this huge monument to the guy

who led, I think, The War of 1812, you know,

because Brock is his name. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. They have this huge monument to him. And

they have a little statue of Laura Secord, because,

you know, she warned that the British were coming

and the Americans are coming. And but the people

who were instrumental in the whole victory and

helping Laura Secord get to where she wanted

to go was the Mohawks. There's no monument to

them there. But there was, when I was there,

someone had built this little stick sort of monument.

And it was to the Haudenosaunee who helped, who

were instrumental in all of this. I mean, the

reason Canada won the War of 1812 is because

the Mohawks were with them and the Americans

were terrified of the Mohawks. Yeah. And that's

why they gave up. After hardly any shooting goes,

the Americans give up because they are terrified

of the Haudenosaunee. But you got to learn that

history, you see. Right. If you just go by what

there's plaques people put up, you don't know

that. Yeah. But learn history from the people

so you can do that. What I learned, Jacques Aloul

said, I like him. He's a French philosopher.

He's part of the French resistance during the

Second World War. He's a contemporary with Dietrich

Bonhoeffer and others. And he said, at some point,

you have to make a decision. Who are you going

to side with? Are you going to side with marginalized

folks and groups to help further their agenda?

Are you just going to side with the powers that

be? Because at some point you're gonna face a

decision you're gonna be in a situation where

the all of the things you learn like pros and

cons That's not gonna help you. You just have

to make a decision And I tell people you need

to have it made it up your mind that when push

comes to shove I will side with marginalized

folks Even if when I don't understand it completely

I'm gonna side with marginalized people. To me,

that's what it is to be human. And that's freedom.

To just say my goal isn't the most efficient

society. I'm going to choose human beings and

we're terribly inefficient and take way too much

time. Sure. And we don't do anything the way

that industry would like us to do things. But

I am going to suck human beings. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's it's when you sort of put it in that

way, like it seems like a really simple choice

and it seems like a really straightforward. Like,

yeah, of course, that's, that's the thing to

choose. I think it, we complicate it sometimes.

Oh, and it's, and it's hard. It's not easy. If

you're, if you're people who are listening to

this, if they want to check something out, I,

the thing that the thing, one of the things that

happened to me, like back when I was, I was working

in the church and those days I was working in

the Christian missionary Alliance, which is the

Evangelical Church. I watched a documentary called,

uh, Noam Chomsky in the media, manufacturing

consent. Okay. And it's, and it was just about

how our media and really, uh, he was writing

in like the, during the Vietnam war years, our

media will only really, they, they put forward

the stuff that supports the status quo. And I

thought about that and I thought, hey, the church

does that too. It's not a conspiracy thing. He

said, he kept saying this is not a conspiracy.

It's just what we do. We can only see the world.

Now I'm using another person about paradigms.

We can only see the world through the world that

we have known. So then we are gonna try, we're

gonna end up reading things a certain way. Sure.

And it's not easy to shift. So. Yeah. So I think

about a couple of the things that you said, you

know, uncovering some of that hidden history

about Indigenous peoples' roles in some of these

events that we mark in Canadian history, or about

when you're hearing some conversation and saying,

well, maybe it's more complicated than that.

I think some folks will say, well, that that

sounds good. But like, where do I even get started?

How do I know that it's more complicated than

that? So do you have some places that you might

point people to just like start to learn more,

to educate themselves a little bit? Let's see.

One of the ones that comes to mind is Robert

Joseph, Chief Robert Joseph. OK. He is. he wrote

a book called let's see chief robert joseph books

here he goes uh he wrote a book about a pathway

to reconciliation okay that's one that's out

i thought there was another book about The Indian

Act. Ah, there was Bob Joseph? Yeah, that's it.

Same guy. Yeah, the 21 Things You Should Know

About the Indian Act, I think is what that one's

called. Yeah. So anything by Robert Joseph. And...

The Royal Commission on Aboriginal People. Like,

it's a ton of work, but there used to be a 150

-page summary. of people is 4 ,000 pages. Right.

That's quite a thick book. And the question was,

there's several volumes, but the question was,

in that study, they went across Canada and said,

what would it take to fix it? Right. OK, so that's

one. And then the 94 calls to action, those are

available online. Yep. I think what it was called,

the Indian Residential School History and Dialogue

Center, that's, the Indian Residential School

History and Dialogue Center is at UBC, but all

of their material is online. Yeah, I think you

can go and hear different stories and testimonies,

get history of the various schools and things

like that. So there was a center that was struck.

There was a fund that developed. It was after

the statement on reconciliation. Jane Stewart

made it in 98. And they set up this healing fund.

And they produced a bunch of good literature

and it's online too. The Canadian government

actually, one of the good things that they do

is that they host all this stuff and it's online

and it's free to download. And there's good stuff

there. Yeah. So that's one of the things government

does well. That's good. Yeah. And then if you

can, we talked about going to powwow. Yeah. Going

to a ceremony. If they're an open ceremony, if

people are advertising it, then go learn. And

then also, just look. I mean, Francis Schaeffer,

and I agree with him, there's kind of these four

kinds of relationships in the world. Okay. There's

the relationship that an individual has with

themselves. There's a relationship that someone

has with their group and then that group with

other groups. There's a relationship that people

have with the land. And ultimately, there's a

relationship on ultimately there is a relationship

with creator and spiritual, the spiritual. Do

something to impact one of those relationships

in a healing way. I don't think it matters which

area you start with. But once a person is on

the path to healing, true healing, will end up

leading you into all of those other relationships.

Sure. As you work through those things. And that's

good for everybody. So if you want to be a person

of peace, then you should work on your stuff.

Not exclusively, because you can, you know, the

thing about working on our stuff is sometimes,

you know, that Henry now and said there's this

In the center of most of us, just because of

our wounded, who we are, is an abyss. If we step

into that hole, there's no bottom. What we're

trying to do is we're trying to dance around

the edges. And so we work on our stuff and as

we dance around the edges, we find some healing.

And like in the 12th step of the 12 steps, you

have found help, go help somebody else. Right.

So that's why I say just work to be a positive

healing influence in one of your relationships

and they'll lead to the other ones. Right. Yeah.

So. Sounds like good advice. And it fits with

the gospel for Sunday. Yes. Sunday, you know,

the one who is faithful in little things will

be faithful in big things. But one who's dishonest

in little things, they're going to be dishonest

in big things. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, probably

a good place to quit. Yeah, yeah. No, do you

have any other comments or questions, things

you wanted to leave us with? Just at the artwork

behind me, that's my daughter's artwork. Okay,

very cool. If you're interested in her artwork,

check out Kat, C -A -T -A -L -D -R -E -D. You

can find her on Facebook. Okay, very cool. She

has a Squarespace. If you're into art. Yeah,

it looks great. Well, thank you so much, Ray.

This has been a really helpful conversation,

I think, to give us... some grounding in Canadian

history, but also some grounding in the work

that you and other Indigenous folks are doing

in trying to bring about healing and reconciliation

that ripples far beyond indigenous communities,

I think. It impacts all of us. So thank you so

much for taking this time for this conversation.

Thank you for joining us for this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. I hope that in all of what

we have been discussing that you have been able

to find some next steps in healing in relationships,

whether that is... your own healing, your healing

with the relationships with other people or the

land or with creator. Whatever it is that you

need, I pray that you can go forth in that and

bring about more truth and reconciliation in

our lives today. And we'll see you next week.