Leading with Purpose: Coaching for Pastors | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and this week

I'm sitting down with a very familiar face, Rob

Herkmans, our rector here at Trinity Streetsville,

and a less familiar face, Beth Benson. And we're

going to chat a little bit about clergy coaching,

which is something that I'm willing to bet not

a lot of people have heard about. But Rob, you

have called it your secret weapon. Beth is my

secret weapon. OK. Yes. And that is I'm actually

so pleased to finally get the chance to introduce

the people of Trinity to Beth, because actually

Beth has played a huge role in the life of this

place in kind of guiding me that that I don't

think people. fully um realize it yeah yeah so

Beth do you want to introduce yourself tell us

a little bit about who you are and what led you

into this work of clergy coaching clergy coaching

Kyla great to meet you as well so clergy coaching

is is a real passion of mine and I think it actually

became more clear to me in my practice of parish

leadership. I finally kind of retired about four

years ago from full -time parish ministry. But

each of my parishes that I was involved in, my

greatest joy often came in relationships with

divinity students, with the newly ordained, with

curates, and those who were discerning calls

to ministry right in the congregation. And over

time, as the Lord usually works, I came to see

that this was something that coming alongside

people who were discerning vocational call and

leadership is something that gives me great joy.

And so in the last four years since my retirement

from first full time ministry in 19 or in 2021,

Bishop Jenny Anderson then asked me to think

about whether I would like to join the diocesan

clergy coaching program. And after some prayer

and discussion with folks, I did some training

out of California and began. coaching. And it's

a wonderful, life -giving, faith -deepening ministry

for me, Kyla. But I wanted to share that it really

came to me out of the practice of parish ministry

myself as a leader. Right, yeah. So feeling sort

of grounded in your own leadership, but then

recognizing, you know, the things that God...

has given you a passion for, right? Yeah, exactly.

And one of those things is the big view of the

church and the opportunity over and over with

gifted leaders like Rob of getting up on the

balcony, so to speak, and looking at the big

view, the big picture, and really discerning

together what God is up to in our midst. And

really appreciating that the diocese has made

this a big priority. So it's guided and inspired

by our bishops and funded by the diocese. So

I think we're in a new era, to be honest, this

sort of renewal and spiritual restoration and

refreshment of the church comes alongside recognizing

that developing gifted leadership is a real part

of what God is up to. And I'm just so thrilled

to be part of it. Yeah, yeah, very cool. So what

is clergy coaching? Like, what does that look

like? What is your role? Yeah, I mean, there

are lots of things that both Rob and I could

say about that. But what I wanted to start off

with, at least, is that Clergy coaching is about

a relationship grounded in trust. It's grounded

in two disciples of our Lord and Savior who are

on a journey into the deeper heart of God individually

and then together. And so clergy coaching is

a journey alongside. a parish leader who is a

lifelong learner, someone who has gifts of skill

and character for ministry, and someone who has

the strength to say, I want to go deeper. And

I want to have the opportunity for one -on -one.

discussion and prayer to help me do that. So

that's kind of the 30 ,000 foot view of it, Carla.

And then within that, there are many, many more

details around developing and discerning shared

learning goals together. And then the role of

the coach, particularly in my case, is to be

an attentive listener and to be sometimes a corrective

voice, a challenging voice, but to resist the

temptation to get into the real day -to -day.

leadership ministry. So I like to remind myself

that my role as a coach is again... 30 ,000 foot

prayerfully coming alongside parish leadership

and asking what I hope are wise and spiritual,

sometimes provocative questions, but that are

all leading to the development of gifted leaders.

Right. So maybe not so much in the like, Hey

Rob, here's how you should run this staff meeting,

but more in the like, Hey Rob, how, what, what's

your vision? Where, where are we headed? How

do we sort of discern where God is leading us?

Big picture. That's a great summary, Kyla. And,

you know, and in that space to say, what is it

that's bringing you joy, Rob? Right. And where

do you see this in two years? Where do you see

it in three years? Right. And how are you taking

care of yourself along the way? Right. That's

also a really important part of coaching. But

I should say that actually, if I did ask Beth.

Beth, how should I run this meeting? Yes. She

would have something to say about that, too.

Like, I think that there are times I think when

we do maybe dive down into things that are a

little bit more nitty gritty, which, you know,

Beth brings all this great experience and expertise

with her that I want to learn from her on those

things, too. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

would you have anything to add to that? Like

when you think about like what the clergy coaching

relationship is like for you, like how would

you describe it? Yeah, I mean, first of all,

I think that people who are watching who've just

been listening to Beth speak, you probably already

have a sense of the kind of just pastoral heart

that she brings to this. And that is, I suppose,

I'm guessing it's important to find a good fit

between a coach and the clergy person that's

being coached. For sure. So I... Yeah, I just

feel like by God's grace, it's been a wonderful

fit. I think that Beth and I have some things

in common. We even went to Wycliffe. We were

at seminary for the same period of time, at least

we overlapped at seminary. So we do have some

things in common. But Beth also has a whole different

skill set and had a whole life before ordained

ministry as well that I think informs some of

the work that she does as well. So, no, yeah,

she's amazing. Yeah, very cool. So, Rob, initially,

why did you participate in this clergy coaching

relationship? Well, actually, initially, it's

not it wasn't really a choice. I don't believe

I think that the diocesan is wisdom said this

is a really important thing for for clergy and

especially clergy who are in the midst of transition.

So I believe there was a period of time when

every. clergy person who was beginning at a new

place of ministry was required. Am I right in

saying this? The requirement is a related program

called Momentum. That is another kind of variation

of PD. But this wasn't required? Not required,

but it was available on a limited basis when

we were first getting started, Rob. But now,

because of the demonstrated value added of it,

the College of Bishops has said, hey, we want

to make this more widely available. And one of

the keys is that it's one -on -one. coaching

together right right so there's that that customization

of of the program and the relationship as we

go forward and it's only 20 hours so we have

to make really best use of the time that we have

together but we spent more than 20 i mean the

first go around was longer yeah the first go

around was about twice that yeah to be honest

so and this was when you were new to trinity

yeah so that was actually another key thing to

remember is that when you're coming in brand

new to a place like trinity which I'll be honest,

it was a stretch for me, you know, as I've never

been in a leadership role in a church that was

quite like this or as big as this or as complicated

as this. And it was also in the midst of COVID,

right? The church was shut down. And so everybody

was trying to figure out what that meant and

how do we actually be the church. And, and so

when you're starting at a new church like Trinity

and you can't even meet, you can't even like,

man, oh man, it's, that's a. complex situation

and so uh yes i'm especially grateful that in

that complex moment this was available to me

um i i don't think i would have thought twice

i don't remember how exactly it started but uh

sure it just i'm so glad it came along yeah for

sure so you had this period of time where where

you were meeting sort of fairly regularly um

but then that time came to an end and now you've

sort of re -engaged this clergy coaching process.

So what sort of prompted that for you? Okay,

so you're right. I'm not starting here anymore.

I've been here close to five years now. But I

am, I don't know, I think I'm beginning to feel

and even as a staff team, we're beginning to

have conversations about that, you know, the

next season of Trinity could, you know, is also

could be particularly challenging in some ways.

There could be some opportunities that are coming

our way. And I just started to feel like, man,

I feel like I need a conversation partner in

this leadership role at this particular time

again. And I, you know. I always missed the coaching

conversations we have. I mean, I was never glad

that it was over in the first place. It was just

that it was free and it was provided with a dice.

So I would have happily kept it going to be quite

entirely honest, but it did come to an end. But

I don't know with some of the stuff going on

with some of the grants that we have, some of

the strategic realignment process that we're

going through right now, even just, you know,

working with and supporting our staff team. Yeah,

I. Really began to feel like, oh, it'd be good

to have that that partner again in some of these

is what I work through some of these things.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so now reengaging this

process or sort of thinking about how it went

a number of years ago. What have you found most

helpful in this whole process? Well, we haven't

actually begun yet. So the re -engagement begins

tomorrow morning. Okay. So to be quite honest,

there actually was a bit of work to be done with

talking to our bishops to say, hey, we would

like to do this again. And they'd be like, what?

That's unusual. No one's kind of come to us and

asked to do it again. But I think they were actually

very interested to hear why we felt that way.

And I'm almost certain that I think. And they're

kind of in some ways watching this a little closely

to say, oh, interesting. There are other points

in the life of a church and the life of leadership

where this could be a valuable gift as well.

Yeah, so we had to kind of make a case for it,

right? Yeah, we made a successful case. And I

think also as part of the prelude, the preparation

for this next phase, Kyla, we've spent at least

three hours together asking ourselves, what are

the objectives of these next 20 hours? The guided

conversation, if we want to put it that way,

has some particularity about it. We know big

picture where this leadership ministry is being

called. And we know that within that, grounded

in what's going on here at Trinity and what God

is up to here, Rob is articulating some particular

goals that he wants to wrap his head around and

his prayer around. And the other thing I would

say is that in this season for me, I'm also involved

in coaching. a pastor who's starting his very

first incumbency. So it's a challenging and a

wonderful gift for me to have an opportunity

to come alongside Rob, who is a seasoned pastoral

leader, at the same time having a chance to come

along someone who's beginning a very first appointment

in this season. Yeah, very exciting. But I would

emphasize that part of the role that I think

is important for a clergy coach comes very, very

early. As Rob mentioned, we're sort of kicking

it off tomorrow. preparation for that, uh, in,

in discussing, maybe pushing back a little bit

with each other. What are these key goals? So

that we, we have a sense of, yeah, we can, yeah,

we can tweak them as we go, but there's, it's

not random. It's, it's, it's directed and organized.

Sure. And are these goals that you can share

with us? I mean, they're, they're so. OK, so,

for example, Trinity has this amazing vision.

We want to love Jesus, live like Jesus, lead

others to Jesus, you know, learn from Jesus.

And I think that as we kind of, you know, just

embrace that vision again, it's one thing to

have a great vision statement, but it's another

to be able to actually, you know, what is that?

What does that mean? What are we actually, what

does that mean in practice? How are we actually

living that out in concrete kind of ways? And

I think that I'm the kind of guy who sometimes

needs help making that transition from, you know,

the big idea, the big vision into the concrete

steps that kind of enact that. So definitely

there's a piece around living into our vision

as a church. I would also say that right now

we are in this moment where we have been receiving

some diocesan grants to try some innovative and

new programs. In fact, this very thing we're

doing right now is the result of some of that

support from the diocese. But that support is

waning, not intentionally. It's declining. That

was always the plan. And it's just because it

means that we have to. do some real kind of good

work around building up the resources to continue

this or find out what exactly is the best part

of all this learning and how do we carry that

on? How do we embed what we're learning over

these years into the life of this place in an

ongoing way? I don't want this grant period to

come to an end and then all of a sudden we're

like, oh, where did all that stuff go that we

were doing that was so cool, right? needing some

help that way. Sure. Related to that, I would

say is always needing help in managing an amazing.

staff team. Uh, but you know, there's, you know,

it's a fairly big team these days. There's lots

of people and they're all kind of different personalities.

And one of the things I loved in the early days

is when, when, uh, Beth and I were, were talking

every week, um, she really got to know the staff

team as well. She got to know, she never met

them, but she knew them by name. She knew all

of their kids. She knew every, you know, the

good, the bad, there was no ugly, but there she,

she knew, she knew. And it was great. She's like,

Oh, how is so -and -so doing with this? Or how's

it going? with that and how's it and that continues

to this day like there's a constant kind of need

for me to to um to make sure i'm doing the best

job that i can to create a healthy staff and

leadership culture sure here uh i don't take

it for granted you know you can lose it really

quickly i think if you make some bonehead moves

and some missteps so so getting some support

that way is also uh is also a thing and i'll

just say maybe one more thing is In the midst

of all that, I need a conversation partner to

be helping me stay healthy spiritually myself,

right? To ensure that I'm putting in the time.

to maintain a healthy spiritual life, the kind

of spiritual life that can actually undergird

and support the amount of work that we're doing

here. And I think a real crisis, well, we're

learning about this on our staff team right now.

We're reading a book together about how ensuring

that we have enough emotional and spiritual health

within us. to support all this doing. We have

to first invest in the being, and only then can

we lead into the doing. And so I think Beth will

be a great help to me in that regard, too, to

say, hey, Rob, are you taking care of yourself?

How is your prayer life going? What is God teaching

you these days personally in your own reflections

and quiet times and stuff like that? And how

are you? Are you getting away? Are you finding

time to retreat with God? You know, all those

kind of... things that I think are also part

of the package and one of the goals of our re

-engagement. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So when you think

back on the sort of history of this, this clergy

coaching relationship and process, yeah. Like

what, what did you find most beneficial? Uh,

and, and yeah, then why did you want to sort

of re -engage it at this point that you were

like, ah, I want to get that again. Yeah. Well,

as you know, although we have an amazing staff

team here, uh, I still, at this point happened

to be the only clergy person right here. So,

uh, and, um, I, we've done that very intentionally

and in many ways, I have no regrets about that

whatsoever, but there is this. pardon me from

time to time that, uh, does want to hear from

someone who has a perspective of being a parish

leader, a clergy person who's, who's gone through

some of these same kind of ups and downs and

struggles that I, you know, am encountering.

And so, yeah, I can always talk to you about

stuff. I can talk to Libby about stuff, Alex,

I got, you know, I have lots of people to talk

to. And Natalie is a great conversation partner

for me, but sometimes you do want that, that

person who has the. the pastoral ministry perspective

to bring, to bring to it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think

that's great. And I would also say this is a

mutual kind of faith deepening discipleship thing

that we're doing together rather unconsciously

or consciously. Like I really feel the blessing

of deepening my understanding of discipleship

and my, my yes to God as, as a disciple in this

stage of my career. And one of the, I've just

come from the nine 15 worship service, by the

way, and I feel thoroughly nourished. And upheld.

And I even met a few people that I've known from

other activities in the diocese. So I feel nourished

and grounded after being in worship with Trinity

here this morning. And to begin a morning with

a baptism, I mean, does it get much better than

that? So we're really wanting to celebrate and

to create that safe place for a conversation

that's safe and private but life -giving and

about formation. and recognizing the mission

that God is calling the whole community into

here. It's very exciting. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And that's another thing that I really appreciate

about how this relationship has gone is that

is, you know, Beth is very highly invested in

this place. And I mean, even back during COVID,

she was watching the services week by week, kind

of online. And again, getting to know the players,

getting to know the people, you know, and it

was. that was just so such a blessing to have

somebody who was paying such close attention

to all this stuff. And so, yeah, like I suppose

as a coach, if you have multiple people you're

coaching, it could, it could possibly be that

you just start to like, I'll ask the standard

questions, you know, how are things going, you

know, but it never felt like that. It felt like

she really knew this place. And, and, and even

this is the first time you've been here in person.

I was here in February of 2023. I came alongside

the pastoral leadership development team for

a bit of a seminar. And what a wonderful half

day that was. Sally and her team were leading

that. So that was really fun. But I was saying

to Kyla how I really feel part of the Instagram

community. Is it every morning that something

comes across my in basket? And I thought, wow,

this last. week the gospel is a door i mean whether

what i want to say is whether you're worshiping

here whether you're considering whether you're

seeking whether you're a longtime member of trinity

streetsville the idea that the gospel is a door

inviting you in to send you out as part of god's

mission the door opens The welcome is genuine.

I felt it this morning. I even got a name tag.

And then gently being sent into the world to

be God's hand and voice and heart. So, you know,

I've been in parish ministry a long time, but

I just wanted to say that that idea is so powerful.

It's so visual and it's so life -giving that

that's the kind of thing that you're speaking

to the Trinity family. But you're also speaking

beyond. You're communicating into the kingdom.

And that's something that I know Rob and I are

really passionate about. And so I think the coaching

relationship, there's a mutuality about it that

I want to say. And yes, I'm privileged to bring

perhaps a particular perspective to it. But it's

when it has this mutual component to it, I think,

that we both feel after a session like, well,

see you next time. And so it's a real gift. I

think, to both of us. Yeah. So then it sounds

wonderful. And you also, I think, mentioned earlier

this idea that, you know, sometimes there are

hard conversations. Sometimes there are provocative

questions that need to be asked. And so I'm wondering,

like, what are the challenges that you face as

you walk through this process together? Like,

what are the things that we as a church can be

like praying for you for in the midst of this?

Well, I think some of the hardest questions that

Beth might ask would be the why questions, right?

Even like when we were trying to put this together

to say like, let's do this coaching thing again.

You know, the question was why? There's got to

be a compelling why. And again, knowing my own

tendency to be an ideas person, to be a vision

person. Oh, let's try this or let's do that.

it's you know the hardest questions are sometimes

like you know why where does that fit how does

that you know yeah yeah help you live into your

vision and so uh i i appreciate those questions

i need those questions but those are some of

the harder ones i think that we could get asked

sometimes i ask questions about translating an

idea into action or or visualizing an idea and

and then and then having a feedback loop sure

so we can say hey that was an awesome idea uh

we've been running with it. This is what we've

been learning with the team, with the congregation

in general. Do we want to tweak it? Who's being

celebrated here? That's another thing about it.

But for me, these are all normal challenges.

These are things that we want to welcome. And

I think that that's where the coaching relationship

on trust is really important. We mentioned that

already. We want to create that safe place, knowing

that God is in charge of this and that we are

trying to tune our ears and our hands and our

hearts to be able to faithfully respond. It's

as easy and delicate and precious as that, I

think. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, one other thing

that, you know, does is kind of a challenge is

that challenge. But you have to we have to make

time for this. Right. Like so there has to be

a willingness to set aside time to prepare for

these conversations than to to take the learnings

away and try to do some implementation. So it's

it's, you know, I think to get the most out of

them, you've got to carve out some margin in

your your schedule. And so that's always a challenge,

but it always pays off to do that work. Yeah,

yeah, for sure, for sure. And Rob is, as you

know, he's a great initiator. So he's really

keen to take the, if there's one or two actions

that come out of our hour together tomorrow,

he'll take those and work on them. And then so

that the onus is on Rob, right? I I'm just the

lazy conversation partner. And how are you? So,

yeah, that's, but that's where he's the director

of it. Right. And prayerfully in the power of

the spirit directing this. And then, so we have

this, this kind of a unique relationship. Yeah.

It's awesome. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I think.

We've covered a lot of ground in sort of talking

about, you know, going from, well, first of all,

what in the world is this? To, yeah, what does

this look like in the life of Trinity? What does

this look like in your life, Rob? Is there anything

we've missed? Anything else that either of you

wanted to sort of make sure our congregation

knows about this relationship or about how this

all works? If not, that's all right, too. Yeah.

I would just say, just off the top of my head,

Kyla, that you feel, I think, the energy in this

partnership that we have. And also just how important

it is for how the congregation is nourishing

Rob and his leadership ministry here. And the

possibilities and the energy, the communication

that you're already doing, it's setting a benchmark

for the diocese. I know that may sound sort of...

saccharine or easy to very grand right but i

want you to know that from my perspective having

opportunity to be here and there and around and

about um that this is this is the diocese saying

there's something important happening here and

and we want you to know that we're with you yeah

yeah and i think that's that's important for

sure yeah for sure yeah yeah thanks yeah Well,

thank you both so much. This has been a really

good conversation. Yeah. And thank you for tuning

in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I

hope that you are also able to find some conversational

partners for yourself to help you as you walk

through your spiritual journey. And if you are

part of our community here at Trinity, I want

to just encourage you to continue praying for

Rob and for Beth and figuring out, yeah, what

is God leading us as a community towards? And

we will see you again next week.