Unity in Diversity with Bishop Andrew Asbil | Trinity Talks Podcast

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this week's

episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and

this week I have a very special guest with me,

Bishop Andrew Asbell, who is the Diascus and

Bishop for the Diocese of Toronto. And yeah,

we're just going to chat a little bit about what

your job looks like, what it means to be Anglican

in Toronto. whatever else comes up, I guess.

Wonderful. Looking very much forward to it. And

thank you for having me. Yeah. So maybe you can

just start by introducing yourself a little bit

and just telling us, you know, what led to you

pursuing ordained ministry to being a bishop?

Well, thank you. It is a long. A lifelong process,

I think. For sure. You know, I was born and raised

in a family where my father was a priest. And

eventually he would become the Bishop of Niagara.

So there was a time in my life where, in fact,

he was my father and my boss at the same time.

Okay, yes. But I, as I said in my sermon earlier,

I was a Sunday school dropout, not because Sunday

school was not boring, but because I needed something

a little bit more and liturgy. came that place

where I found a full expression and a sense of

being at home and really wrestled with the idea

that God might be calling me to ordain ministry.

It was something that I kind of put on the back

burner when I became a teenager, like most teenagers.

It didn't seem like a cool idea to me at the

time. Sure. And it wasn't until partway through

my undergraduate degree when I was at the University

of Waterloo when I realized that science, which

was the course that I was taking at the time,

while interesting, was not my passion. And I

slowly but surely started to get a sense that

God was calling me to ordain ministry. And I

started reaching out to people in my family and

those who knew me well, one of whom was my father,

who, when I came home after a Christmas break,

said, you know, Dad, I'm thinking about ordained

ministry. And he said. I wanted to talk to you

about that before you went back to school. I

believe you have a vocation. Okay. And that led

the long journey to trying seminary. And I made

the promise that I would try every year. And

year after year, it just felt much more at home

than I was. in the right place at the right time.

Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, so my dad is

also a pastor and wondering, like, how does that

sort of play into your sense of call to ministry?

Because I know there's probably positives and

negatives there. Yeah, I think it's by, you know,

you tend to soak up so much of what the faith

is about, but almost by osmosis because you're

constantly in it. There are very few places in

the world where a pastor brings their children

to work. Yep. Right. And so you're, you're in

it all the time. And, and I think just watching,

listening, paying attention to how my father

interacted in his ministry became just like wearing

another part of my skin that was just very, very

much at home. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So.

You sort of how does the transition work from,

OK, I'm pursuing this sort of called ordained

ministry to becoming a priest, to becoming a

bishop at some point. Like, what did that journey

look like? You know, I went through the process

with the diocese of Niagara and felt the call

to being ordained a deacon first, which is part

of our of our system of ordination, a transitional

diaconate. And then so was. Deaconed in 1988,

a whole long time ago, and then priesthood in

1989. And I served in a parish in Guelph, St.

George's, as an assistant curate. And then I

had my first solo flight. as a pastor or priest

in a small town called Acton. Okay, yes. And

there at St. Albans, started my first chapter

of doing that on my own. Okay. And then I progressed

from there to a new church plant in Oakville,

where we met in a high school cafeteria and went

through the process of building a new building.

Okay. And then moved to the Diocese of Toronto

and became the incumbent at Church of the Redeemer

downtown. Okay. Corner of Avenue Road and Blue

Street. Served there for 15 years and then served

as the dean of the diocese and the rector of

St. James Cathedral right downtown for a couple

of years and then was elected as the diocesan.

Okay. In 2018. In 2018. Okay. So you've been

doing this about seven or so years now. I've

just turned into my eighth year. Okay. Yeah.

So what does that look like? What does a bishop

do? Well, you know, the bishop is the symbol

of unity, is the symbol of the lead pastor, the

shepherd of the sheep and the flock of the diocese.

We have 200 congregations. We have a whole host

of other missions. We have chaplaincies and schools

and hospitals. And so my role working with the

other two suffragan bishops is really to nurture

a sense of being one together as community, of

tying together this very, very unique community

of Anglican churches, you know, both small and

large in rural areas as well as right downtown.

Working very closely with our clergy, we have

about 250 very active clergy and probably another

100 to 150 retired or those working part -time.

And so it really is about gathering the whole

community and being faithful together. Okay.

And what does that look like? In a week of a

bishop or in the month of a bishop, what does

that look like? Well, that's a very good question.

It's a whole new adventure every single day.

Sure. In my experience. Every Sunday, my wife

Mary and I hit the road and we go out to another

parish. This today is Trinity Streetsville. And

so the car points in different directions. And

that is, for me, the wonderful part of the week.

When the gathered people of God come and we worship

together. And through the week, I'm often in

places where I'm visiting other parishes, where

they're going through development changes or

they're in the midst of conflict. I meet a lot

with... staff at 135 Adelaide, which is our head

office. The directors and I spend a lot of time

together overseeing the work of the diocese itself.

I do some teaching and Bible studies, take services

during the week, and I'm present within the diocese,

but also beyond. So I've served on different

boards and committees for the Episcopal Church.

as well as in the UK. Because we're part of an

Anglican communion, it's not just resting in

Canada, it's much beyond. Sure, sure. Yeah. And

for you, I mean, you grew up in the Anglican

church. Was there any point where you felt like

there was a decision to stay in the Anglican

church? Like, what is it about Anglicanism that

sort of is... Draws you in. I love the Anglican

tradition because it provides so much room. You

know, I've never, ever contemplated leaving the

Anglican tradition. It very much is home for

me. And I think a community that can embrace

the diversity of theological interpretation,

of expression of liturgy from high angle Catholic

to low evangelical. that can span the expanse

of different languages, different cultures, different

settings. And when we get into places where there

are differences of opinion, differences of interpretation,

there's a real sense that the first, the default

is always that we walk together. We are in this

together. And so division is not something that

we take. We take it very seriously and we try

desperately to, to avoid that ever happening.

Sure. And, and so that's, I think for me, that's

the merit of the enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

for sure. I think that's something that, so I

didn't grow up in, in Anglican context, but I

think that's something that also has sort of

drawn me in this direction, right? That I'm looking

for a church that focus, that puts the first

things first. Correct. And that lets us then.

Express that in a variety of ways, but do it

recognizing we're all family, even if we have

our familial challenges. Exactly, like a real

family. I mean, there is not a family that I

can think of that doesn't have conflict and doesn't

have separation. And when there is time of separation,

there's always, always, always the want and the

desire for reconciliation. That's who we are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So what do

you find like most exciting or most rewarding

about the work that you do? Sunday mornings.

Sunday mornings is the cherry on top. You know,

it is what gives me breath and life to face another

week. When the when the gathered community is

together, I think watching communities grow both

in in numbers, but also in depth of spirit and

an expression of their faith is is something

that gets me up in the morning every morning.

knowing that we're making a difference in the

world. And it doesn't matter if you're in a large

parish downtown or in the suburbs or you're in

a tiny little parish in the rural areas where

only 10 or 12 people come. There's a real sense

of identity and a real sense of purpose and meaning

for those communities. That gets me up in the

morning. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Is there a

particular... aspect of like the Sunday morning

experience that like is sort of most captivating

for you? I think being with the community itself

and walking alongside, paying very close attention

to who the community is and how they express

their faith. Sure. Listening. Yeah. I love listening

to the stories of why people come, what sustains

them, what keeps them coming back. Sure. I think

are the stories that keep me Really enthralled.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so while you're here

on Sunday morning, you're going to be doing some

confirmation, reaffirmation, reception. Is that

something that you do most weeks or not necessarily?

Not necessarily. So as the diocesan bishop, I

have a particular area of the Central Arch Deaconry

that I spend a lot of time in. And those are

often the places where I do confirmations and

reaffirmations. And because I have oversight

of the whole diocese, Our goal is to get into

every single parish before I retire and to worship

with every community at least once. So we've

been in probably 150 different. congregations

over the last seven years. And how many are in

the diocese? 200. Okay. Okay. So you're getting

there. They're getting there. Um, and so if we

can do that at least twice would be absolutely

a blessing. Um, doing confirmations, reaffirmations

are a real joy too, because you, you are, are

with young people and, uh, middle -aged folk

and sometimes seniors who are making this declaration

that's public, uh, that I find really humbling

and beautiful. Because the whole community gets

to be a part of that with them. Yeah. And none

of us walk by faith on our own. For sure. You

need the community to do that with you. Yeah.

Yeah. So when you think about this process of

confirmation and reaffirmation and that sort

of thing, what do you see that as doing or being,

I guess? I think it's one of those moments in

a person's life where they feel, a need to publicly

declare. And I know in some cases for younger

people, especially, it's often a moment when

a family says it's time for you to get confirmed.

Right. Sure. And some of those who come into

confirmation classes do so pretty reluctantly.

Sure. And it's often after and way later. I hear

back from folks like that who were reluctant,

who said, I had no idea at the time. Yeah. what

was really happening under the surface. But very

glad that my grandmother or my mother or my father

said it's time for confirmation. And a real sense

that God was working through them in a new way

that they had not really thought of before. And

one of the beautiful attributes of our tradition

is that you are confirmed once, but you can reaffirm

a whole host of times. And so there are moments

in our lives when we go through major transitions

and we say, here's an opportunity for me to be

able to declare that God has really helped me

through this moment. Right. And I want my family

to know about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool

the way that like God. God works in those ways

that like are almost a surprise to us. They shouldn't

be a surprise that this is how God works. But

like in those moments, it's like, whoa, God shows

up again. God is faithful again. Always. And,

you know, in the reading today, one of the beautiful

aspects of Luke, when Luke says, you know, if

you're living a generous life, if you're living

a life. where you're dressed and ready for action,

your, your lamp is burning with, with a passion

for the good news. Jesus will show up and serve

you. Yeah. You know, you are, you are served

at the same time that you are serving. We actually

don't, we don't recognize that sometimes. Yeah.

It's often after the fact that we realize, Oh,

that's how this works. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's

definitely that. Continuous process of re -encountering

Christ. Absolutely. In these big moments, in

confirmation and that sort of thing, but also

just like in the weekly practice of receiving

Eucharist, in the daily practice of prayer, of

showing up. Exactly. Re -encountering Christ.

Indeed. Yeah. So cool. So when you think about

all of this work that you do, are there moments

that are particularly challenging for you? Yeah,

I think that conflict is always a part of the

journey. Sure. And that's a big part of my work,

is helping congregations, helping leaders. work

through their conflicts. And it's probably the

hardest thing that I do and probably the best

thing that I do. Because if I can stand in the

breach with the community, with the person and

know that I'm there, you're here, we are in this

together, holy things happen. They always do.

And sometimes you don't know the fruits of that

moment until way after. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think about that. As you said, conflict is

always hard. But I think the value of having

a wise leader and someone who, I mean. You're

part of it by virtue of being part of this diocese,

but sometimes a little bit external to the particular

parish. Correct. Right? Like that I think is

super helpful in this moment. Exactly right.

And as a bishop, you have the responsibility

of being present. You have the responsibility

of showing up. And to be in a space where you

know people are vulnerable and that hurt has

been experienced. And and they're stuck. They

don't necessarily have a way through. And so

my a big part of my call is is helping that happen.

Help to find that avenue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for

sure. For sure. So when you think about your

work in the last little while, where's a moment

where you've seen God show up? Oh, my goodness.

First of all, I would say. I was a bishop for

about a year and then COVID happened. Right.

And I would say that especially through that

COVID moment, what I experienced as a bishop

was grace upon grace upon grace of moments when

God showed up in a time when we did not know

what we were doing. Yep. And going online like

we are now. Yeah. And watching clergy take the

risk of having podcasts and doing live broadcasts

and learning how to be vulnerable in a time when

we did not know what the future was going to

hold. Sure. I think that experience for me set

me on a different trajectory as bishop to say,

we got to try everything. We've got to be present

in every way that we possibly can. And and those

who when I watch congregations large and small

take those of those risks. Yeah. Jesus is always

present. Yes. Always. Always. And and I I'm always

moved by those simple gestures. When I think

of St. George Grafton, a tiny little town. And

most of the community members are north of 75

years old. And they really wanted to be a part

of a wider community event and ministry. And

so they joined Habitat for Humanity to build

housing for those who could not afford. And they

knew that they couldn't climb ladders. Yeah.

But they chose, in fact, because they know hospitality.

Right. They provided meals for 16 build days.

Okay. And they understand that that is what they

are called to do. They are Mary and Martha in

that moment. Serving the needs of those who are

providing housing and shelter for the most vulnerable.

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, to

think about these. 200 churches that are all

in 200 or more different places. Yeah, just doing

the work that God is calling them to do in that.

Place and space and moment. Incarnational. Yeah.

You know, and it's true. And we don't really

sit down very often as Anglican churches and

count all of the points where ministry is happening.

Sure. In some ways, I'd love for us to do that

at some point. Sure. Just to say, how have you

been influenced or changed somebody's life this

week? Yeah. We are very bashful, I think, about

telling the good story. And we need to be more

in practice of what that means. Sure. to be able

to share that good news to say, let me tell you

what happened for me this week. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it's, you get a particularly

good like lens on that, right? Because you get

to go around and see all of these different churches.

I think it's really easy for us at Trinity or

at any local church to sort of think, okay, this

is the stuff that we do in Streetsville in this

place at this time. And we forget. that we're

connected to this whole family of people. Well,

and that was one of the great gifts in COVID.

You know, if you were just a congregational community,

you have only yourself to rely on. As a diocesan

community of 200 congregations, we could hunker

down together and start learning from each other

in a completely different way. And for the longest

time, a lot of Anglican churches have been, you

know, falsely had a sense that we were competing

against each other. We were doing our thing.

You do your thing. But now I think there's a

change in the diocese where I think more congregations

and leaders say, we need to help each other.

Sure. To learn how to be present in a changing

world. You know, the fastest growing demographic

are those who have no connection with any religious

organization. And that's the mission field for

all of us. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. future of the

Diocese of Toronto looks like? We don't have

a crystal ball to say this is exactly what it

is, but where are you hoping that we're moving

towards? Well, I often use the expression, for

those who will listen, that we are operating

on a two and 300 year plan. Businesses tend to

look at five and 10 year cycles. And for us to

be able to say, We are a faithful community.

In our liturgy, we say Christ is risen, Christ

has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Our pledge is to be present when Christ comes

again. It might take 100 years, 200 years, 300

years more. And so for me, the future for the

Diocese of Toronto is to set that horizon as

high as we can to say, how do we meet 200 years

from now? That's going to be influenced by the

decisions and the ministry that we do today.

And I think the season of spiritual renewal,

which we've just come through as a diocese, sets

us on a wonderful course to be able to say, we

know that the first things are the first things,

which is discipleship and evangelism. And we

are embarking on that. And in a whole new way,

I find now Anglicans are much less bashful than

they used to be in being able to say, I have

a good story to tell. So I see a wonderful future

for the Diocese of Toronto. I see a much more

diverse Diocese of Toronto as the face of immigration

changes in the greater Toronto area. I see a

depth of different languages being spoken. We

have at least 12 different languages now being

spoken on Sunday mornings in parishes across

Toronto. And I see more of that. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Very cool. setting a 300 year horizon and,

and saying our goal is to like meet Jesus there.

Like, obviously a 300 year horizon is not when

I personally will be there to meet Jesus, but

to think about how do I set up this community?

Well, so that 300 years from now. Someone can

be sitting here experiencing Christ. Well, and

somebody came to faith because you said something.

Yeah. And then they say something and then they

say something and then they say something. Yeah.

And that is how the Christian community and gospel

is spread person to person. Yeah. And so it's

in the intimate as well as in the communal that

we do that work. And it takes me and it takes

you in the present to say, I want to see that

church 300 years from now. Yeah. So I have work

to do. Yeah. Lots of work. Exactly. Lots of really

good work. Keep your lamps burning. Yeah. You

know, be dressed and ready for action, as the

gospel says this morning. For sure. Yeah. So

we spend quite a bit of time here talking about.

Bishop Andrew and the work that you do. So when

you're not busy being a bishop, what does life

look like for you? Well, it's a busy life. Mary

and I, my wife Mary and I have five children,

two boys and three girls. And we try and spend

as much time as we can with them. They range

in age from 21 to 28. Okay. They're very, very

active people. And so when we get a chance to

be in their presence, it's just wonderful. Sure.

And besides that, we love to travel together.

We love doing home renovations, hanging out with

friends. listening to live music okay uh we we

try and spend every ounce of our time together

okay oh that's beautiful so any current renovations

on the go uh well i i've uh just finished doing

some roofing in the summer and some uh some painting

of the of the sea house uh as well in the summertime

And we have a property up in Bala, which is in

Muskoka. Okay. And I have some new wood floors

to put down at some point. Ah, okay. We're getting

brand new flooring here at Trinity as well. I

heard that. Yes. Yeah, pretty impressive. Maybe

we should invite you to come on over and help

them out. I can help. I'm pretty good with a

sander. Okay. Well, there we go. Yeah, very good.

Well, thank you so much, Bishop Andrew. This

has been a delight to get to hear a little more

from you. But also, I think, To hear your heart

for this work and your heart for this diocese

and the churches. Yeah, it's so encouraging to

know that we have a leader who is leading with

love and compassion and with this desire to sort

of see us all come together now. 300 years from

now. Thank you. And I really appreciate your

ministry and what you do here at Trinity Streetsville.

And you do it so beautifully, very warm and engaging.

And thank you for the opportunity of having this

conversation. Yeah, you're very welcome. Yeah,

you as well. And thank you for tuning in to this

week's episode of Trinity Talks. I hope that

as you've been listening to this conversation,

whether you are part of our diocese or not, that

you have been able to sort of picture yourself

as part of. God's kingdom, as part of this global

church family that's moving here and into the

future together. And we will see you again next

week.