Diversity in Dubai: Christians in the Middle East | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm really

glad that you're joining us because we have a

really interesting conversation here with these

three folks who have all come to Trinity at different

times, but actually all came from Trinity in

Dubai. And so excited to sort of hear more about

that story and what has brought you folks here

and what that experience has been like. So maybe

we'll start with some introductions, and you

can just tell us your name, a little bit about

yourself, and maybe what brought you here to

Canada or to Trinity. So do you want to get us

started? Hi, yeah, sure. Yeah, my name is Pradeep

Benjamin. So we moved to Canada in 2013. Okay.

Before that, we visited... Canada in 2008 okay

for a vacation uh that time okay we like this

place sure and also our kids were coming up to

the university age so we thought you know it's

a good place to move okay um So we applied in

2009, I think, and we got, it was perfect timing.

He moved here in 2013. Okay. And I already had

a job, so it made it easier. Okay. And were you

coming from the UAE at that point in 2012? Yes,

I was. Actually, yeah. Okay. Okay. Very cool.

Yeah. My name is Naraya. I'm with the DUI program

here in Holy Trinity. I mean, Trinity Church,

Streetsville. Also came from Holy Trinity, Dubai,

but only came to Canada for like my education.

I was trying to do a master's in business administration.

Very cool. And then so this was in January 2022.

And then, so yeah, I came for that. But I joined

this church because God called me when I was

in Calgary. He was like, yeah, I need you here

in Toronto. And then he opened up that door through

Rob and the DIY program. And yeah, so like now

I'm here wanting to serve. Okay, very cool. Yeah.

Hi, my name is James. We actually came to Canada

in 2003. 2003, okay. So you've been here the

longest. Yeah, but I've been traveling back and

forth because until 2020, I was still working

in Dubai. Ah, okay. So during the COVID time,

I thought enough is enough, and I came back.

Sure. But my son, he stayed back from 2003 to

study to do his university. Okay. He stayed back

and my wife joined him. Okay. So they were here

and I was going back and forth. And you were

sort of back and forth. Okay. Okay. And since

2020, you've just sort of mostly stayed around

here feeling more settled. Okay. Yeah. So then

I'm wondering, you've all sort of been here different

amounts of times, different things sort of brought

you here. What was your sort of first impression

of coming to Canada and maybe how has that changed

over time? Okay. That's a good one. Actually,

when I first came to Canada, I was in Calgary.

Okay. And I have a Brazilian side of my family,

so it was just a Latin experience. Oh, okay.

Nothing Canadian at all. Okay, interesting. Except

the weather itself, of course. But in terms of

like the culture that I did experience when I

was in Vancouver and Halifax, that was very different

because like, you know, everybody goes like,

oh, Canada is like the best. The people are the

best. They're so nice. And I was like, well,

there were quite a few mean people in my class.

Sure. Yeah. So it was very it was very different,

like to see how people here talk very differently.

They're a lot more considerate, a lot more nicer,

for sure. um but it's also like in terms of like

Canada being like like back home it's like oh

it's like the dreamland right if you're in Canada

you've just prospered in life you've reached

heaven so yeah so it's very like I like how grounded

it is here compared to what it is back home I

feel like back home it's very superficial materialistic

okay and stuff so yeah that that was um how my

first impression and then my current impression

seems like now. Okay, yeah. So it was, like,

maybe this sort of vision and, like, dreamland.

Yeah. And it's maybe some of that. Yeah. But,

like, we're rounded people, too. Yeah, yeah.

It's not all dreamy and perfect. Exactly. Which

I like. I like the realistic, you know, like,

low -pressure kind of atmosphere that this place

has. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, once we left India... In 1992, we went

to Dubai, and we were exposed to the multicultural

setup. Sure. So moving from there to here, it

was a bit of a change, of course. It was a lot

of a change. Whether it was easy to adjust, whether

people are good, friendly, and we were able to

get to know the system quite well. Sure. Very

simplified system, nothing complicated. So it

was easy to, you know. adjust to this country

sure yeah yeah yeah so the dubai as you said

was sort of multicultural absolutely yeah yeah

and so the mississauga sort of matched that in

some ways yeah Yeah. Okay. Yeah. What about you,

Pradeep? For me, you know, I worked in the oil

industry. Okay. So since 1986, I've been kind

of working outside India in many different countries.

Sure. So I was exposed to very different cultures,

you know, diametrically opposite. Yeah. Like

work, living in Japan to living in Yemen. Okay.

Yeah. And also like for before. Moving to Canada,

my company, we had a, we worked with a Canadian

company called Canadian Nexen. Okay. So for about

four, four and a half years, I worked with them.

So I was like, I had a lot of Canadian friends.

Sure. But most of them from Calgary. Okay. So

they were the one, they were also instrumental

in me coming here because they were pushing me

to move to Calgary and, you know, start working

there. But unfortunately or fortunately, the

bottom of the oil industry fell off during that

time. But I already got the PR. So I said, all

right, instead of Calgary, move over here. Sure.

That's how. For me, it was not a big. There's

not much adjustment necessary because, like,

you know, I've been exposed to it. Sure. But

for my kids and the family, yes, there is. It

was a change. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So as you think

about, like, navigating these different cultures,

like, what is that experience like as, you know,

whether it's in Dubai and navigating all these

different cultures or sort of coming here and

trying to figure out Canadian culture? Like,

is that what are some of the challenges in that?

In Dubai, it is very different from anywhere

else in the world because you don't get to interact

or meet with the locals because, you know, you

have people coming from all over the world to

work there, right? So you are only exposed to

them. You are very rarely exposed to somebody.

Okay, interesting. So everybody sort of comes

from somewhere else. And besides the church also,

like, okay, it was an Anglican church, but we

had more than 120, 130 congregations there. We

had a main church building. We had about 20 different

halls. So on a weekend, like from morning five

o 'clock, we have different congregations worshiping

there. Okay. Wow. That's a lot of congregations.

Yeah. one was like a different i don't know like

a different denomination different country sect

whatever it is okay okay so it was always like

new okay um there's never like how uncle says

like it's nothing like that is or the arabic

culture is right there no it's very mixed okay

the languages are very mixed yeah yeah yeah we

had um you know egyptian orthodox to ethiopian

to They had one congregation from Brazil, too.

So it was very diverse. And the only time we

got together was during Christmas time, we had

a unified carols in the compound. So all the

churches are like, it's a three, three and a

half hour program. Each church would come and

sing a carol. Okay, very cool. Well, the interesting

thing is the country of United Arab Emirates,

it was formed in the year 1971. Okay. But the

church, The Holy Trinity Church started one year

before that. Ah, okay. Because the land for that

particular church was given by the ruler, Sheikh

Rashid, we call him Sheikh Rashid. Okay. He gave

the land and the church was built in 1970. Okay.

But the country was formed in 1971. Uh -huh.

And a very interesting concept, the church itself

was actually, they gave it as a non -denominational.

Okay, sure. But it is kind of managed by the

Anglican Church. Okay. So like Pradeep said,

we have about 120 different groups of people

worshipping in the same compound. Sure. And last

time when I went there in the month of October,

I was talking to somebody, and they said the

footfall each weekend is about 10 ,000 to 11

,000 people. Wow. Coming into the compound. Yeah.

So it's a very amazing experience, you know,

the church -wise. And earlier, we used to worship

on Fridays. Yes. And not on Sundays. Okay. Yeah,

our weekend was Friday, Saturday, not Saturday,

Sunday. Ah, because that's how the schedule worked

in Dubai? Yeah. Because that's the Islamic culture,

right? And Friday is a holiday for them. They

go to the mosque and namaz and things like that.

Right. So Friday was a holiday. Only about five

years ago, they switched to Saturday, Sunday.

Ah, okay. Interesting. Yeah. So you usually had

church on Friday then? Yeah, we had it on Friday.

But on Sunday evenings, they used to have a worship

in the Trinity Church. So sort of a little bit

of both. Yeah, a little bit of both. And when

you folks were all part of the Trinity Church

in Dubai, were you in the same congregation or

were you in different congregations? I was in

different congregations. Okay. I went to the

Tamil Church. Okay. They also worship the same

compound. Yeah. But I used to go to the English

service also. Okay. And even now when I go back,

I mean, I keep visiting Dubai. I go to the English

church. I attend the English church because I

have a lot of people there I know. Yeah. And

I know the pastor also. But I do also know the

Tamil church congregation and once in a while

go there. Okay. But I was a member of the Tamil

church. Yeah. But worshiping both here and there.

Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, me and Pradeep

uncle, we've been in the same Anglican, the main

congregation. In the English service? In the

English service, yeah. Okay. And so what was

that experience like? Like being part of, you

know, your own little congregation, but within

120 congregations. Like, yeah, just describe,

like, how does that build a sense of church for

you? Or how is that sort of similar or different

to what we're doing here? I could share like

a small incident that kind of like threw me off.

But basically, there was a time when the church

was being renovated, right? They're trying to

make more space and whatever, like in the main

hall itself. But they were also like renovating

a few rooms around the compound as well. And

I remember when they were first renovating it,

they were like, hey, we're going to be shifting

the service into another place of the same compound.

And I was like, okay, great. And I got lost.

I didn't know where I was going. And I ended

up in the Ethiopian Orthodox. church okay and

it was very different I walked in and I was like

am I in a different world like what is this and

I had no idea because I knew that there were

other groups and congregations I was very young

sure but I didn't know that there were like so

many different traditions and the cultures have

their own thing going on right like very different

ways of doing church yeah yeah and so that was

that threw me off and I was like you know what

I just want to go home now a little disorienting

yeah yeah but um the like to compare like what

holy trinity was to this i would say is a lot

more traditional because we we have like over

there it's like choir we sing hymns sure and

then here we know that there are hymns being

played here but it's very like contemporary style

almost country as well yeah and so um this is

something that i discussed with uh leah as well

your daughter um but we were talking about how

that threw us off sure as well because we're

like we're we're used to the d thousand nine

and whatever to like go into like a contemporary

we're like this is not how it is we don't want

this sure so yeah there's like a few things that

for us were like Or like for me, I'm like, yeah,

you know what? I like the difference that's there.

That's very evident. But also I like how the

tradition was back home because I'm just used

to it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think we all sometimes

want to lean back into what feels like familiar

and comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty

amazing to see when you go to the church, you

know, you see a group of people worshipping Tamil

and another place people were worshipping in

Malayalam and somebody worshipping Urdu and,

you know, multiple languages. And it's pretty

awesome. It's pretty awesome, you know, the way

people gather and worship, you know. I mean,

it gives you kind of goosebumps at times. Right,

that's one thing. The other thing is, I mean,

she was talking about the... liturgy that we

followed there, particularly Anglican, it's slowly

changing. Over the past three months, once a

week, once a month, they have a contemporary

worship in the Anglican church. They have started

that because they realized that, okay, maybe

some youngsters like the contemporary worship,

so let's do that. I think the last Sunday of

every month they are doing it. They have two

services. Normally they used to have only one.

Okay. Now this contemporary worship starts a

little earlier. Sure. And they finish that and

then they go to the regular worship. Okay. Yeah.

For me, the big change or the difference between

Dubai, as well as in the other churches in Asia

and here, is, you know, there it's more formal.

Like she said in her answer, it's more formal.

And one thing that threw me off is the music

because I grew up with the typical traditional

hymns. Okay, sure. I love them, but unfortunately

you don't get to see that here. And another one

is, I think they have changed here, but they

follow the King James Version Bible. Okay. So

that's why all this dao di, all this. Sure, sure,

sure, sure. And especially when you do the Lord's

Prayer, because we, you know, they recite it

the old way. So sometimes it kind of throws us

off. Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

so when you think about like the traditional

hymns and like the way that the service looks

like. Would it be sort of similar to what I might

think of as like a traditional Anglican service,

you know, like with an organ and the same Book

of Common Prayer and that sort of thing? Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, especially

in Dubai, because everybody in Dubai, they have

come there to work or their children who are

studying there. Sure. So the only time we are

involved in the church is on a Sunday or nearly

it was on a Friday. Sure. We don't have anything

else, right? Okay. Because everybody is busy

with work. Sure. far away. So your involvement

on like other than going to the church and worshipping

there is not much unlike here. You know here

you're involved with other activities connected

to the church which is great. That's something

I realized that I was missing that only after

coming here. I think that's because of the work

culture there. People work very late. In fact

earlier that may be about 10, 15 years ago, they

used to have two shifts. Okay. Meaning two shifts

in the sense people go to work from maybe 7 o

'clock to 12 o 'clock or 1 o 'clock and they

have a break till 4 o 'clock and then start again

at 4 o 'clock and work till 7 o 'clock. Ah, okay.

See, because of the weather conditions. Right,

because it's too hot in the middle of the day.

Yeah, too hot, yeah. And that was the Arab culture.

Sure, yeah. Right? And slowly things changed

over time when the country started developing.

But that work still remains the same. People

work very late, like Pradeep said, you know.

They don't have that kind of time to come to

church also, you know, to come to church and

participate in any other activities. It's not

possible. And right now, the biggest challenge

is not the time, it's the traffic. Aha, yes,

okay, yes. To get from A to B, you know, what

could be done in 10 minutes will take. 40 minutes.

So it's worse than the Toronto traffic? Absolutely.

Absolutely. That's horrible. Okay. Okay. I'm

curious about, you said there's this one Christmas

service where all of the different congregations

sort of come together. So what does that look

like and like sound like? Yeah. It is an open

air service because we have like thousands of

people. It's on a courtyard. Okay. Okay. So everybody,

okay. they have a list of singers they come in

we start the opening prayer and then that's then

it's all music okay okay and every congregation

is a different piece yeah yeah in their own language

yeah so apart from like their own language they

also like wear their own attire like their own

choir costume kind of thing yeah um or like um

Was there food involved? I don't remember. No,

not for that. No food. No. Okay, then maybe I'm

thinking of carols in the desert. But we had

a lot of caroling the whole December. Because

it's like when we're going from a 40 degree weather

in the summer to like a 15 to 20 degree during

the Decembers and Jan. So it's good weather for

us to be outside, enjoy the weather. enjoy each

other's culture as well so it's a very like really

nice exposure for all of us yeah and having said

that i think in the church i think during the

time of pentecost there used to be a sunday now

sunday was it right different uh what should

the groups yeah will come and sing in different

languages in the church right so that was very

that was very interesting Very interesting, you

know, because some people who can sing in Tamil,

they'll come and do it in Tamil. And somebody

would do it in Hindi and somebody would do it

in, you know, Urdu or whatever language. Sure,

sure, sure. And they used to wear that, like

she was saying, the traditional costume and come

in the church. Yeah. It was part of the service.

Sure. So that was very interesting. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, for sure. And of course, going back to

what Pradeep said about the hymns, I think what

I personally miss here, In this church is the

hymns. Because we all grew up, you know, with

those hymns. Right? And I've been for the past

so many years. And not being, not listening to

it in the church, sometimes, you know, come on,

are we missing something? Sure, sure. Yeah. And

with all of the different music in the different

languages, is it different like styles of music

as well? Yes. Yes. Very. Each culture has like

their own beats and stuff like that. So sometimes

they would even like when they come up on stage,

they're also dancing a little bit. So it's a

lot of fun to see how like they enjoy and they

worship God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a way

we had like a very strong Korean, Ethiopian,

Kenyan and Nigerian as well. Egyptian congregation

so they sing their own language like Ethiopians

are not for some reason they only when they come

to church they wear only white okay okay and

Nigerians with their elaborate headdress and

you know like it's like it was it was great yeah

yeah to get to see all those different pieces

together for sure So when you think about different

cultures coming together and worshipping God

and figuring out how we do church, are there

ways that you think our cultures influence how

we think about God or how we think about church?

Ooh, that's a good one. Sorry, go ahead. No,

you're fine. I really don't think so. Because,

you know, culture is something that you're born

into. Yep. Right? And then, you know, worshipping

in that particular culture, sometimes you feel

nice about it. You know, that you're worshipping

in that culture. But at the same time, you learn

to accept the others, the way others worship

also. So, I mean, like I said, I mean, travelling

through Africa, if you go on a Sunday, I've seen

them, even the poor villages, they dress up so

very well in a suit. Maybe that's the colonial

culture they grew up with. And they go to church

so neatly. And then you begin to appreciate.

Sometimes the way people come dressed to the

church and all that kind of thing, it makes a

difference, I feel. And then you begin to respect

them. Because they are respecting that particular

day when they have to go to service, to the church.

Sure. And they are rich or poor, they come so

very well dressed. And traveling through Africa,

I have seen that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,

sometimes I really wonder, you know, culture

does have something very major role to play.

Sure. And it's great to worship in your own culture

if you get an opportunity. Mm -hmm. Yeah. One

of the things, you know, you'll see is, you know,

when it comes to Christianity, if you go to different

countries and different cultures, always the

worship, there's a big influence of the local

culture. Sure. The language, the way they dress,

the way they talk. Sure. And also some of the

practices they do. Yeah. Especially how you get

married, how you get baptized. Sure. They're

all different. Yeah. But the thing is, at the

end of the day, it is all towards one. You know,

like they all worship the same God. They all

believe the same in the Trinity. And you're saved

by grace. The belief is the same. But the way

they do it is different. Sure. So it is, you

know, you don't feel intimidated or any different

when you go to a different church. Sure. You

know, kind of. Accept it. You're ready to respect

them. Yeah, for sure. I think a majority of that

respect is also because we've seen so many cultures

come together and we've witnessed how, no, we've

actually come to appreciate those different traditions

because we understand how much they kind of revere

those traditions to be like, oh yes, this is

how we must respect. um, God and also how our

family has worshiped God. Right. And so, um,

but I do, I do think that culture apart from

like how it influences music and the way we worship

God and like serve him, uh, apart from that,

it also like can somewhat influence the way we

see God. Right. Because, um, I guess it's also

like the way we are brought up, like how we're

raised. um we we might see like our earthly father

or like the um the congregation itself and be

like oh maybe this is how god is right right

but it's again once you only once you dive into

the word and then you actually see god's character

show up right then only do you see him how he

shows up in your life and how he wants to have

this love for you and show that love for you

so culture does have that tiny bit of influence

but it's unless you get into the word and know

like okay this is how god really is sure would

you have a different perspective sure yeah and

i think like there's a gift in being part of

a multicultural church or especially being part

of a church like like holy trinity where you

had all these different congregations because

you can see okay This congregation worships God

like this. This congregation worships God like

this. And God is still God in both of those contexts.

Absolutely. Right? You get to see a more fulsome

picture than if you were just in one church in

one place that was sort of isolated. Yeah. Now,

having said that, something happened a couple

of years ago in a place called Abu Dhabi. That's

the capital of the UAE. They built a huge building.

They call it the Abrahamic House. Okay. Abrahamic

family house. So part of the building is a mosque.

Part of the building is a church. Part of the

building is a synagogue. Okay. The idea is that,

see, even the local people, that's the Arabs

who are running the country, they actually give

that kind of respect to the other. I mean, that

is why I think the UAE is one of the most progressive

countries in the Middle East. Because they respect

the other religions and they actually provide

for them. Sure. In different ways. And they are

very, very tolerant. Right. When they can be

tolerant, I think we should also be tolerant

to the other. Sure. the congregations which worship

the same God yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think

interesting there that like yeah we can learn

things from our Muslim brothers and sisters and

from our Jewish brothers and sisters yeah that

God is somewhere in all of this yeah and it's

a lot bigger than just our little sort of piece

of thing it is very you know a big change because

until not even when I left Dubai at that time,

Jews were not allowed inside. Interesting. Okay.

And then they made peace. Yeah. It's interesting

to sort of think about the history. I had a problem

where I think initially when I was working in

Abu Dhabi, one of the companies we were working

for, their geologist wouldn't allow me to go

to the field to work because he thought I was

Jewish. Ah, interesting. Because of my son, Benjamin.

Ah, I see. Yes, okay. Interesting. Huh. But then,

yeah. But yeah, things change over time for sure.

Yeah, I think it's really, like I said, really

interesting to sort of hear the gift that each

of you have in this experience of seeing God

in these different cultures. And then the gift

that brings to our Trinity family here, right?

That you guys can come. and be part of our worship

and remind us, I think, that even though we're

all a little bit different, we're all pointed

in the same direction. Yeah. Yeah. And that's

really special, really important, I think, to

keep our eyes locked on that. For sure. For sure.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, folks. This has

been a really fun conversation. Yeah. And thank

you for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity

Talks. I hope that wherever you find yourself,

whatever your church family or your faith community

looks like, that you are able to expand those

boundaries a little bit to see what God looks

like in lots of different places around the world.

And we will see you again next week.