We’re Not the Same: Culture, Power & Faith | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. And I am thrilled

to be joined here by Jess and Mike. And each

of us have different unique experiences in working

with churches or just being part of churches

and faith organizations around the world. And

so I'm excited to sort of, yeah, dive into our

stories a little bit more, get to hear what some

of that learning and things has been like. So

thank you for joining me, folks. It's great to

be here. Yeah, thanks for having us. Maybe we'll

start with a little bit of an introduction. So

Jess, do you want to start to say a little? little

bit about yourself and about, you know, what

are some of the places and the work that you've

been part of? Sure. Yes. So hello, I'm Jessica.

And so I grew up in London, Ontario. And I'll

just say, yeah, I kind of grew up in very monocultural

setting. But yeah, as time went on, I've had

a lot more, yeah, experiences out there. So the

first kind of experience I had was I did a semester

of university in Jordan and we also did some

regional travel there so that was about four

months and then um since graduating I've um worked

at Canadian Baptist Ministries and I've been

able to travel to India with them and then I'm

now working for Mennonite Central Committee and

I've recently been to Kenya okay very cool And

Mike, what's your background and experience been

like? Yeah, I also grew up in a very monocultural

world. I grew up in New Brunswick and was there

for a long time. But really, after university,

I joined World Vision as an intern. And really,

that was my career path for the next. 35 years

or so until just recently I was the CEO of World

Vision Canada and now doing consulting with international

organizations and still involved in that space.

Yeah. And been really privileged over the years

to have some pretty amazing cross -cultural experiences.

Sure. Everything from, yeah. being in Timbuktu

with the Tuareg people in Mali to Afghanistan,

South Sudan, you name it. Very cool. Some really

interesting places, East Africa. Yeah. And then

also experiencing cross -cultural understanding

of Christians, even in the organization. Sure.

The work that I do with people from all different

backgrounds. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I think so. I also grew up, I grew up in

rural Nova Scotia, again, in a very sort of monocultural.

place overall. And yeah, first, probably experience

of, of at least living and working internationally.

You know, I did a couple of short term mission

trips in high school and early university, and

then spent six months living in Albania to go

to Bible school there. Um, and then, yeah, uh,

finished up, uh, did my, uh, degree in international

development and then started working with Canadian

Baptist ministries. And so had the privilege

of working mostly with folks in, uh, Asia and

Europe. Um, yeah. And just getting to sort of

see what some of that was like. Um, but then

I also think about like coming to Mississauga,

coming to Toronto, at least for me was again,

another, one of those experiences of being in

Canada and coming face -to -face with the multiculturalism

that exists here that just was not a reality,

I think, in rural Nova Scotia. I don't know if

you folks coming to the GTA, London's not quite

as far away, but it's a different world, right?

For sure, for sure. I'll say, I think, yeah,

growing up for the longest time, I was very much

just... Grew up in like Dutch circles. That's

my background. But then I think in high school,

I remember that's around when the Syrian refugee

crisis came about. Sure. And then I started to

notice a lot more changes. So I was working in

the summer as a lifeguard. at a pool that was

within an apartment complex. So that summer is

when I really noticed a big shift was when all

these refugees started moving into the building.

Sure. And yeah, just those interactions there.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just starting to notice

even, yeah, like you said, sort of within our

cultural context, there's a lot of change happening

for sure. And we saw that even at World Vision,

which is actually based here in Mississauga.

And we had an incredibly diverse. staff background

people from all over the world yeah and i was

always amazed we had chapel services once a week

and somebody told me one time from the canadian

council of churches was there as a speaker yeah

and they said that they thought that this was

probably the largest multi cultural multi -denominational

gathering that happened every week across Canada.

Cause there were 400 people in this room and

different backgrounds and, you know, dozens of

different, different experiences. It was just

a really rich and you just realize how much you

can benefit from that diversity. Yeah, for sure.

And I think so cool. Like often we think about,

and I think we're going to go on to talk about

cross -cultural experiences where we leave Canada

and experience life in another culture, but it's,

it's so real here as well. Like you don't need

to travel across the ocean to get it. Yeah, so

when you think about what some of your cross

-cultural experiences have been like, what are

some of the things that surprised you about those

experiences? Do you want to start us off, Mike?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Maybe this

is going to sound like a strange comment maybe,

but some of it has surprised me as I look back

on how my understanding about what cross -cultural

understanding actually looks like has changed

over the years. I think when I started, you know,

I was... I think I'm a naturally curious person.

I really enjoy difference. I don't get threatened

by that. It's like it's really interesting. But

I think I kind of went in idealistic to say,

oh, well, at the end of the day, we're all just

the same. Sure. I mean, which is actually. true

we're all created in god's image but i think

that if if we risk flattening those differences

too quickly then we actually realize we're missing

so much more of what diversity really looks like

cross -cultural understanding yeah and so it's

been a surprise just recognizing that actually

the more i've been in this space working with

people from all around the world actually the

more humble i need to be to realize that actually

my way may not be the best way and it's actually

if we if we just flatten differences we're going

to actually miss the opportunities to to really

experience sure what we can learn from each other

i don't know jess if you've experienced that

too yeah so when i was preparing to go to jordan

and when we were there we did a lot of work studying

around yeah cross culture um and just learning

Yeah, as much as we could about all the differences.

Like, for example, Rob mentioned today, like

people have different understandings of time.

Right, exactly. In the West, we're very much,

you got to be on time and it's got to start on

time. Right, you follow the clock. In the Middle

East, when I was there, that's very much not

the case. So we had to adjust our expectations

and our understanding of what that means. And

it's not wrong, it's just different. Sure. We

have to get used to that. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Time is a great example, but even things like

what's truth? How direct are you? What do relationships

look like? How do you handle conflict? How do

you deal with authority? Like all of these things,

if you just sort of assume those away, you know,

assume that they're all the same, then you're

going to really miss out on that deeper level

of understanding. For sure. Yeah, I think some

of the things that surprised me the most in some

of these cross -cultural experiences was just

like what I learned about myself. just as much

as like what I learned about the culture, like

learning, oh, I really value my independence

and my ability to like read a room and understand

what's happening. And when I can't do that because

of cultural differences or because of linguistic

differences, like that irritates me to my core.

And so this is the thing I need to like then

learn and deal with and like figure out what

I want to do about that. But like. Yeah, I think

just the learning about myself is also a really

big piece of that. And it's the hidden things,

too, right? It's the assumptions that we make

about ourselves and about other people. Yeah.

And you can kind of really, you don't realize

until you're kind of in these contexts that it's

like, oh, yeah, I just assumed everybody thought

this way. Right. Or maybe every Christian thought

this way. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, having

these experiences has really strengthened. the

muscle I'll say of discomfort, like just, yeah.

Like working your way through discomfort and

unknowns and just like being okay with that.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting, yeah. Being

okay with that for sure. Yeah. I think one of

the other things that I don't know if surprise

is the right word, but one of the things that

I sort of. realized again and again in some of

these experiences was just that like that there

are so many differences but like some of the

core things are the same and like just getting

to recognize so for example I had an experience

like talking with some youth and young adults

in the Philippines and they were like sharing

about their struggle with like finding their

own place in the church and like figuring out

how do I lead in this space that like doesn't

quite fit the way that I think things should

be done and that sort of thing right and feeling

like I can identify with that like we are experiencing

some of the same things just like in a different

context right like yeah just like those moments

of like bonding i think are really important

i've sometimes thought about it as as if it's

it's the the curiosity and understanding gets

built the deeper insights come when when we allow

our stories and other people's stories to overlap

sure right and that so those those youth it's

not you're not talking a um like a generic values

conversation. It's about their lived experience,

similar to your lived experience. And you find

those points of connection in the middle of that.

Yeah. And yeah, rather than kind of assuming

that, you know, we're all the same, that's actually

not the destination. That's really, it's a starting

point. Sure. But then it's layering on that understanding

of. of story and experience and when our story

and their story and then God's story kind of

all interact, that's where that's the pretty,

something pretty powerful happens. Yeah, for

sure. For sure. Yeah. So as you think about some

of the different experiences that you've had,

like what, what are challenges that come to mind

for you that, that you've faced? Yeah. Um, yeah.

So living abroad for four months. Yeah. Uh, the

biggest challenge was of course, communication

and language, um, in a completely different language

context. So yeah, just learning the language

is very challenging. Um, especially Arabic. It's

one of the more challenging languages to learn.

Um, yeah, so that's a big thing. And I think

just personally for myself, like I'm, I'm more

of a like perfectionist, so I don't want to like

try try the language until like i feel like i

know it really well right you don't want to like

try it and get it wrong yeah so but you have

to do that to learn language sure yeah yeah yeah

definitely yeah what are a few mic challenges

i think some of it for me um again Moving from

the sort of idealistic perspective was recognizing

that cultural differences, it's not just differences

in what you wear or what you eat. And you can

celebrate that. And I'm glad that we're going

to be doing that at Trinity, for example. But

if we just limit it there, then we kind of reduce

their cultural differences to something very

shallow and almost kind of like put it on its

side. Those are just like the visible layers

of culture, but not the hard part. Here's an

example. I traveled a lot in East Africa. You

said you've been in Kenya. And there's always

wonderful singing and dancing. The culture is

often about honoring people who are there. Sure.

As somebody who's in a space to kind of get something

done, it's like, well, let's just let's skip

the speeches and the singing and the dancing

and let's move right to the conversation. Surely

that's going to be the meat of things. Right.

And I realized over the years that actually probably

as I look back, like my desire to kind of get

beyond that ignored what was really a very significant

cultural expression of honor and the way that

you establish relationship is through celebration.

It's through. It's through formality. It's about

sitting in different places. I just, I, you know,

we have this kind of egalitarian approach to

maybe in North American culture where it's like,

oh, that's, we're all the same. Let's just sit

on the ground and have a conversation. Right.

No, there, it actually was a, there was something

significant about being honored and letting people

honor and kind of speak, making that space that

was the necessary relational. lubricant if you

will for the for the conversations you're going

to have and that was a learning for sure I really

had to kind of get my head around to let go of

my assumptions around actually this is this you

know 45 minutes of speeches is a waste of time

we're not getting to what we actually need to

get to yeah yeah actually what we need to get

to is exactly this which is to honor and understand

and to speak yeah I think like I think about

because often in the work that I was doing like

with Canadian Baptist Ministries I was going

in like representing an organization and a partnership

that had sometimes existed for for decades or

even like hundreds of years right and and so

to go into those spaces like what they are doing

in some of those moments is like honoring this

legacy that we're building together right and

it does it I have felt really awkward in some

of those moments where I've been like this is

Like because it feels like it's an honoring of

me and like I don't feel worthy of that. I don't

feel like I really represent that. But like to

think of it as an honoring of a partnership of

the kingdom of God that we're building together.

That's right. I think kind of helps soften it

a little bit. No, it's a great that's a great

insight. But it is you have to grapple with that

and realize that culturally it's kind of like

this. you know, cognitive dissonance a little

bit around who we think we are and what we're

representing and so on. And that was a real,

that was a learning. It took a long time for

me to get my head around. Yeah, for sure. For

sure. I think the other thing that I have often

struggled with in cross -cultural spaces is just

like figuring out like what colonization looks

like in that particular context. Because I, as...

someone who comes with a lot of privilege just

by my appearance, let alone by my wealth and

where I come from and the organizations that

I represent. Right. Like I always walk into a

space and like I try to be cognizant of that.

But the way that that shows up in East Africa

is different than the way that that shows up

in Southeast Asia or in Thailand or wherever.

Right. Like it's and so just trying to understand

how do I steward my power well? And how do I

share that power well with the people that I'm

trying to work with there? I think has always

been a tricky bit of the work, I think, for me.

Jess, how does that look at MCC? Because, I mean,

the justice orientation and so on, that you must

have to grapple with those kinds of dynamics

as you do your work. Yeah, for sure. And, yeah,

I feel like I'm still, like, very much at the

start. Like, I'm learning so much every day.

Yeah, it's definitely something you want to,

when you're going to all these different places,

you want to have that awareness and learn as

much as possible. And I think the biggest thing

I've learned so far is leaning on those local

partnerships as you're visiting. They know the

context. well and they'll be able to guide you

through it yeah and i think the other thing that

i've really appreciated is in almost in every

context where i've gone into i am there very

temporarily and there are other folks other canadians

even who are there on a on a more long -term

basis and so just to like debrief with them and

to say hey this is what i'm experiencing like

how How have you managed to navigate this tension?

And like, what's the best thing to do? Like really

leaning into those other people with the solid

relationships, I think is super helpful. Absolutely

that. And, you know, have that ongoing learning

posture as a piece, but also recognizing that

you can't ever, you can't just wish away your

differences. Sure. I still remember actually

my very first kind of big challenging. uh cross

-cultural experience i was in the west africa

country of mali in the seventh region up in the

desert actually with the tuareg people and it

was in the middle of a a drought and there was

a food crisis and i remember sitting down we

were there getting stories from from families

that was there and i remember sitting really

under this leather shelter with her grandmother

and her child. And she was explaining to us,

you know, opening up her life and her stories

to say how difficult it was for her to feed her

grandchild. And the only thing that she had option

was like, you know, kind of look through the

sand for these grains of wheat that may have

blown from somewhere else. And just a really

challenging thing. And I was struck by the fact

that, yeah, she's opening up. I'm trying to make

this connection. Yeah. But at the same time,

I've got an airline ticket in my back pocket,

like ready to go back. At any moment, like I

can't ever really be in that same space. And

that was a moment to say there's some of those

cross -cultural moments like you can't. Yeah,

you just need to like sit in the challenge of

it. You have to sit in the challenge. Exactly.

And the more, you know, going through life, it's

just like context change, power dynamics more

even than good intentions matter. It's not an

easy space. Cross -cultural conversation that

goes beyond. reductionist, simple flattening

of differences, or even just celebrating dress

and music and food, misses out on some of those

differences. And you have to grapple with that,

especially as Christians. Totally. What does

that look like? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we've talked

through some of the challenges, but I'm sure

there are also many blessings, many things that

bring us joy in some of this work. So what has

that been for you folks? Yeah, Jess, what have

been some of the blessings that you've experienced?

I think the biggest thing is a greater appreciation

for hospitality and receiving hospitality, especially

in the Middle East. where I was there for four

months. Um, yeah, hospitality is just such a

huge part of the culture and it's like, everyone's

just so welcoming and yes, really, really incredible.

Um, yeah, like they don't know us at all. Like

we had our, um, our travel agent invite our whole

cohort of 20 some odd young people over to his

house um to throw us a huge dinner and yeah it

was just incredible yeah yeah Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I think the same for me is like that, just

like noticing the generosity of people, like

materially, but also just like with their lives,

right. That like, there is this often sense that

like, you are just being welcomed. You're being

invited into something that, like I said, I just,

I feel like I don't deserve that, but like to

get to partake in it and to feel the unity of,

of Christ and of church in, in the midst of all

of that, for sure. Yeah. What about for you?

Yeah, for me, I think it is. I mean, I know I've

said a lot about how challenging cross -cultural

stuff is and all that kind of stuff, but it is

those moments of connection, particularly as

followers of Jesus. I've had these moments of

being, you know, in churches and in challenging

parts of the world and this deep sense of, you

know what, I have come, I'm from such a different

culture. different background, different denomination.

But this is something that these people really

are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Like,

what does it mean to celebrate that and to be

together and to share communion? I remember being

in the Central African Republic in an area that

was... in the middle of a civil conflict. And

I was there on, on Palm Sunday and walking, going

with the local Catholic church and, and their

church for their, like a procession around the

church, around the whole community, waving palm

branches and just thinking, this is unbelievable.

Like it might, this is bringing an understanding

of what Jesus coming meant in this context so

differently, so meaningfully. And it's this common

bond of connection, you know, as we just. basically

went around and sang Hosanna to say, yeah, notwithstanding

all of the violence and despair and darkness

in this place and conflict, Jesus, the Prince

of Peace is coming. And that's the same in Canada.

It's the same here, same in Central African Republic.

And it was just profound. So those moments of

deep connection, particularly around faith, I

mean, it just brings me joy and it gives me hope

in the midst of all of that. And to realize that,

yeah. it's a really challenging story that we're

living right now, but God's already got the answer

written. Right. We know what that looks like

in his kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah. I think just like bringing all of those

pieces of faith together is something again.

Yeah. Like you said, that brings me a sense of

joy that like. I've always like I grew up in

a particular denomination, but like I've always

sort of thought of my faith journey is like a

little bit bigger than that of being like, OK,

I don't want to be limited to one expression

of doing church and of faith. And so getting

to see. not just what faith looks like across

Canada, but like, what does faith look like in

these other nations in these other cultures?

Right. Like, yeah, it just gives me a bigger

picture of like who God is. Yeah. That's a huge

gift for sure. Yeah. I would say the same thing,

like being able to visit all these different

churches and faith communities around the world

is amazing. And I think back to going to church

regularly in Jordan, we had Um, we went to this

church that was, um, Arabic, but also had English

translations. Thank goodness. Um, but it's just

like, it just made me think like, wow, this is

like a little picture of the kingdom of God.

Like this is what it's going to be like. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, so we think about

that. Are there any other ways that you would

say that like cross -cultural experiences have

shaped your faith or shaped your understanding

of God? I think, um, I think maybe one, one thing

I've learned over the years and I'm still learning.

And I would say actually, as I get older and

I continue to do this work, I realized I know

less than I think I ever did. In fact, it's,

it's, it's more reflecting that recognizing that

we can hold similar values. And they're going

to be expressed in different ways. And difference

does not mean better or worse, I think. This

is going to sound really strange, but I've done

a lot of work internationally within the network

of world vision and leadership conversations.

And it's been a real learning to say different

cultures approach making decisions and thinking

about things, even with the same values in place.

So a good example is in lots of East Asian countries.

Conflict is something that you minimize. You're

less direct. You have to kind of figure out more

oblique ways of getting at it and surfacing stories

and making space. I've learned so much from...

in terms of how to navigate change and understanding

and mission and focus from my brothers and sisters

from Taiwan or Japan or whatever. Their patience

and understanding actually have helped blunt

some of my North American directness, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just getting to understand.

Yeah, I think I like the way that you sort of

phrased that, that like we can all have different,

they're the same values, but those can be expressed

differently. Right. Because I think like the

kingdom values of Christ don't change. This is

laid out, but the way that we express those as

individual bodies of Christ, I think, yeah, it

changes for sure. Yeah. Anything else you would

want to add to that? I think that. My experiences

have really enriched my picture of Imago Dei,

like who God is, like all these encounters of

people we label as other. Yeah. That's really

actually who God is. Right. God is made up of

all these different people. Sure. Coming together.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I think,

yeah, that. Another thing that sort of, again,

layers into that is like the language piece,

because I am someone who loves the idea of learning

another language, but really struggles with it.

But to hear other people express worship and

praise and prayer in their language, and then

like sometimes to get a taste of that through

translation or through conversation later, like

just recognizing how much the words that we use

shape. our understanding of who God is. And,

and I, I will find myself sometimes being like,

I like that word in that language. I'm going

to like adopt that into my quasi English vocabulary

because that just like gives me a whole other

like word picture of like who God is. Um, yeah,

it's, it's super cool to get some of those experiences.

Yeah. Anything else that any, either one of you

wanted to sort of add into our conversation?

Maybe I'll say that it's it's I think for me,

the biggest lesson, if I were to kind of summarize

it, is kind of learning to hold two things at

the same time. Sure. And one is this deep, common

humanity that we are all created in God's image.

And that's that's that's really that does connect

us. While also that that shared dignity is lived

out through so many different ways. Sure. And

we have to recognize that that that those things

we have to hold intention and sometimes actually.

That also means reflecting on what's most important

to us. Sure. And there are times when you can

engage in cross -cultural conversation. And sometimes

idealistically, we go in and say, well, everybody's

stories is fine. We'll just listen to their experience.

Sure. You still have to bring your own set of

values. Sure. You know, for a question of integrity

to kind of say, well, actually, I can go this

far, but not that far. And that's just a. being

authentic and open sure so it's it's allow if

we just listen and value other people's stories

without kind of the frame of our own and vice

versa then i think we're going to miss something

and there's a tension built into that sure i

guess i guess what i want to say is Cross -cultural

understanding really to go beyond the surface

is actually really hard. Sure. But it's an ongoing

important work. And it's a work. I think one

of the pieces you're highlighting there is it's

a work that requires us to get to know ourselves

as well. Right. Right. Because I don't come to

any situation as a blank slate. And so getting

to know, OK, what is my culture? What is my value?

And then being able to hold those loosely so

that we can have, you know, good conversation

with one another. But you need to start with

recognizing yourself. This is such a funny. still

the example but like I remember when my wife

and I first got married I didn't even realize

how many you know, family customs and cultures

I brought into our relationship. Like even like

a Christmas day, do you hand out presents one

by one or is it like a free for all? Even I remember

having a conversation with my father -in -law

who I still to this day don't quite understand

it, but he put the lights on his tree after putting

the ornaments on. I'm like, how is that even

a thing? But, but like I didn't, what I mean

to say, and that's a silly example, but it's

about, I actually had to question my own assumptions.

Well, sure. All right. I guess I just assumed

that everybody thought this way. Right. Everybody

puts their lights on first. Right. That's a tiny

example of the bigger understanding I've had

to have as we grapple with culture. Yeah. Just,

I have to question my own understanding and it

does understanding and being curious about others

starts, as you said, with being understanding

and curious about our own backgrounds. For sure.

I would, I would say the same thing. Like that

was a big part of our studies as well. Going

into Jordan was, yeah. taking a look at yourself

and realizing that you also come to the plate

with all these different things about yourself

and your culture. Like oftentimes in North America,

we, we kind of forget like where we came from,

like, and like, we have all these different cultures

and traditions, like, even though there's often

kind of this like melting pot kind of like assimilation.

Yeah, we still have all these little differences

and unique things about us. Yeah. We kind of

assume that everyone thinks like us or they want

to think like us. Right. And that's not necessarily

the case. No. I don't actually think that's what

real diversity and unity look like. No, I don't

think so either. I think, yeah, it's this getting

to experience the church in all of these different

places, getting to experience people even outside

of the church in all of these different places

gives us a picture of. what the kingdom of God

is like. And the kingdom of God is not just like

Trinity Church Streetsville. It is like all of

these things in all of these different places,

for sure. Yeah, well, thank you so much, folks.

I think this has been a really interesting conversation

to get to dive into some of these stories, some

of these learnings, but also really good encouragement

for us to think about how do we engage across

difference? How do we engage with people who

maybe are coming from a different culture or

who just think differently than we do? And doing

that all with this lens of like learning more

about who we are and who God is through the diversity

of people that God has created. So thank you

very much. Thanks, Kyla. Thank you for tuning

in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I

hope that you have also been blessed and encouraged

and challenged by this conversation and that

you know that who you are is a part of the Imago

Dei, but also who your neighbor is, is a part

of that Imago Dei and that together we represent

the fullness of God. Amen. We'll see you again

next week.