Can Christians and Muslims Really be Friends? | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm really

glad that you are joining us. I am excited about

this conversation. I'm welcoming Alex Lee, who

is a PhD candidate at Fuller and works at the

Tyndale Intercultural Ministry Center. And I

think what I'm most excited about in this conversation

is to get your perspective on interfaith conversations

and on what it looks like for us to live the

gospel in really diverse contexts and worlds.

Yeah. So thank you so much for joining me. Well,

thanks so much for having me, Kyla. It's a pleasure

to be here. Yeah. Do you want to just introduce

yourself a little bit, say a bit about your background

and what's brought you here? Yeah. I mean, so

you mentioned that a lot of my work is through

the Tyndale Intercultural Ministry Center. But

before this, I was a pastor for about 15 years.

And most of those years were spent overseas in

various contexts in East Asia, Central Asia.

And so working with local believers and neighbors

who may not have ever stepped foot in a church

or feel any good reason to. That's part of my

ministry and pastoral context. So I'm based out

in Markham now. My wife, Vanessa, and our two

kids. Okay, great. So what sort of brought you

from that pastoral world into this work in the

Tim Center in, you know, studying for your PhD?

Right. Yeah. Well, when I came back from ministering

overseas, It was an awesome time. It was a blessing

in many, many ways. But I also realized that

there were questions that had come up that I

had to wrestle through that coming back and pursuing

the PhD gave me an opportunity to dive head into.

Sure. And to do that at an academic level. But

I think the interesting thing about pursuing

your PhD at a seminary is that it does offer

you plenty of opportunities for spiritual growth.

formation along the way. So even thinking about

mission, um, my PhD is in missiology, um, to,

to engage that both academically and it's theology,

it's history, but also how that shapes us as

the people of God or how that shapes me as a

minister becomes, um, front and center. So that,

that happened first. And then when I got connected

with folks at the Tim center, um, that there

was just a, I think a convergence of, of interests

and passions there. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No,

that's that's really interesting. So then like

when you think about this work of pastoring overseas,

like what what are some of the pieces that like

stand out to you from that? Like what just describe

like what that experience was like? Sure. I think

when I first began my pastoral journey, especially

in the overseas context, it was still as a young

man. I was not married at the time, pretty much

fresh out of college, in fact. And so I. had

a lot of ideas and ideals about what that should

look like sure and a certain understanding that

This is the gospel. These are folks who don't

have the gospel, who need the gospel. And here's

me and maybe my team. And we're going to come

and bring it and offer it to them. And I think

over the course of years, even in the first year

or two, really in the first few months, you begin

to realize it's not that simple. It's not that

easy. It's messier than that. It's more complex.

But also, if you can hang on. through that messiness

and through that discomfort and through this

shift from certainty to mystery, then it becomes

more beautiful. Sure. Yeah. And even as I was

communicating in today's sermon, this openness

to being surprised by a God whose spirit continues

to work. In the world and sometimes even beyond

the four walls of the church. Sure. And to to

receive from others this mutual sharing and giving

of, yes, the gospel, but to hear it preached

back to you with some with from a different angle.

Sure. That's all been very life giving. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I think that's that's really

interesting just to like reflect on. Yeah. Maybe

the ways that we go into mission and ministry

versus like, you know, what, what are the opportunities

that like God is already there. Right. And so

like what, stopping to ask what is God already

doing in this context. Right. I think is, is

super important. Absolutely. Yeah. And so then

in a lot of your work, as I understand was in

like Muslim majority contexts. Right. So like

how did interfaith dialogue like show up and

like, what was the role of that in your ministry?

Well, a lot of it is this dynamic of hospitality

in which you are sometimes a host, in which oftentimes

you're a guest. And fundamentally, you know,

you're for someone like me who's coming from

North America into any country that's not in

North America. I am at the baseline guest. Sure.

And so but more concretely, I think this give

and take between having folks come into our spaces,

but then also being. vulnerable enough to step

outside of one's comfort zone. Sure. Because,

you know, one of the things that's interesting

about hospitality is that it can still take on

these power dynamics. For sure. Where if you're

often, if not always, the one hosting, you're

still setting the table, right? The agenda is

still dependent on the host. Sure. And so to,

I think, practice hospitality well, what we learned

was that We can't just always be the ones in

control. And in many ways, this is very basic,

fundamental stuff. But again, as somebody who

had to learn along the way, as someone who started

off as a young man, this was actually quite...

uh, formative earth shattering for me at the

beginning to learn how to receive from others

as well. And to be a guest and to not set the

table, um, but to what, to eat what is served

and to take what is given. Sure. So like, what

does that look like in like really practical

terms? Sure. Yeah. I think in like in, um, let's

put it back into our. Sure. I think you had this

awesome graphic at the beginning of like how

diverse Mississauga is. I learned a lot. I did

a little bit of research, too, given my interest

in Christian Muslim dialogue. And I noticed how

in Mississauga, almost one in five residents

here are from a Muslim background, about 17 percent.

OK. And that offers a church like Trinity, I

think, ample opportunities to. to be a neighbor.

And perhaps you are already engaged in that in

some way, if not as an institution, then individually,

because if you're a parent, chances are your

kids' friends are Muslim and the other coaches

on the house league baseball team, because that's

what I do, they might be from a Muslim background

or a Hindu background or whatever other non -Christian

background it may be. And so I think what I would

want to emphasize is that practically a lot of

this, it doesn't have to remain. It shouldn't

remain in the realm of academia or for the experts

to engage in. Every person is invited to practice

interfaith dialogue. We might even just call

it interfaith relationships. And that I think

involves the humility to just be who you are,

to be vulnerable, to. make friends with folks

that might not always be in the church context.

So I would, I would really emphasize that capacity

and skill of just getting to know folks who are

not like yourself. Sure. Especially in a place

like Mississauga, Markham's not too different

either, where literally our neighbors, our coworkers

and so forth are. people from a different background

religiously. Um, and I think increasingly in

Canada statistics, Canada also shows that this,

um, involves particularly our Muslim sisters

and brothers, our neighbors. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

So then like if interfaith dialogue and relationships

are about, you know, the people who coach baseball

with you or your coworkers or whatever, like

does. interfaith dialogue like i think that phrase

makes me think well we need to be talking about

faith but like is that true or can we have interfaith

dialogue where we're like just doing life i don't

know yeah that's a yeah that's a great distinction

and i appreciate you bringing that up yeah um

yes because dialogue right it's it's an exchange

of words right but dialogue it is At various

levels, to be sure. And I think shared life,

shared practice. For instance, I think churches

and mosques, as an example, can frequently find

points of common ground when it comes to issues

that concern the community. Sure. And so it doesn't

mean that you're going to always agree on these

issues. Sure. Or always see eye to eye. Certainly

not theologically and maybe not always all the

time socially. To build these relationships,

institution to institution, frequently it involves

what's best for the community in which we both

inhabit. Sure. So I think that there is this

dialogue of, we might say, not just orthodoxy

in terms of like exchanging our theological beliefs,

but also sharing our practices and practices

in the community, in the wider society. in which

we live. And from there, the relationships emerge.

And from there, I think the conversations become

a lot more organic. Sure, sure. Yeah. So it's

about maybe starting in recognizing like, what

are some of the areas where we can collaborate?

Well, exactly. Right. And I think interesting

to then think about, like, maybe we agree on

the common action. But we maybe didn't come to

our reason for that action from the same place.

That's right. But like we can collaborate together

anyway on the action. And frequently what happens

is then whoever it may be that you're collaborating

with in this particular instance, they'll say,

well, so why are you here? You know, you haven't

you haven't gone away. So we know you're not

just extracting some like relationship that you're

hoping to make. But you're really concerned here

for our community, for our shared. Yeah. And

so what motivates you to be here? Sure. And I

think to be able to say, well, actually, I follow

Jesus and I believe that he taught a lot about

living well with one's neighbor. Right. And for

that witness to flow out of those relationships

that are already formed through cooperation.

Yeah. In in focusing on the common good and building

that up. It feels very natural. And I think it's

more not only does it feel more natural, it's

it's more likely to last longer term. Sure. Sometimes

it's just it is that way. Right. Like when when

we recognize we already have that shared relationship.

Yeah. That that then the theological exchanges

don't merely take on this head to head kind of

apologetics. It's not to say that there isn't

a time for that, but it often. means more when

there's the safety and buffer of relation of

relationship sure to anchor are more Sometimes

intense exchanges sure so there's a time for

those but sometimes we feel like we need to foreground

those and so we train ourselves apologetically

to share our faith which again is I'm not dismissing

that but fronting something else as something

that's equally important too sure and i think

that actually makes it then so much more accessible

for like non -theologians right it's like i don't

actually need to understand how my muslim neighbor

got to this point i don't need to understand

theologically here's the bible verses to back

up why i got to this point right like let's work

together as people and then maybe some sort of

faith conversation will come out of that but

like We're just people first caring for this

common concern. Yes, absolutely. For sure. So

then, because I think people get in a little

bit of anxiety when they think about like interfaith

spaces. And I think some Christians will think

of that. Well, the reason I go to an interfaith

space is to evangelize, is to get them to believe

in Jesus. Like what would be your sort of take

on that? Well, to build off what we were already

saying. And some of the things that have already

come up in our conversation include this mutuality,

right? And I think that's where interfaith dialogue

is not a substitute for evangelism or proclaiming

the gospel. But one, like we said before, oftentimes

that proclamation feels a lot more organic and

lands differently when there is a relationship.

Sure. But also, two, the sharing. Is indeed that

it's, it's a sharing. It's not a unidirectional.

Here's what I'm giving to you without any expectation

of possibly receiving something back. And it's

not to say that you always will, or that that

must be a condition, but chances are, if you

are open to that surprise, or as we said, Mary

was cultivated that wonder. Then my experience

has been, there have been times in which my non

-Christian neighbor. whoever that may be sharpens

my faith in some way. Right. And sometimes there's

even an insight that causes me to go back to

my knees in prayer or to the, to the word and

study. And there's something more expansive about

Jesus that I would not have known apart from

this dialogical relationship. So I think having

that baseline of openness. Sure. is, is really

key to, it's a very important posture to maintain

and practice when you're engaging with, um, interfaith

conversations and relationships. Sure. Yeah.

That like the humility is, is key for sure. And

I, yeah, I, I like, I think I really appreciate

that your like emphasis on the mutuality of it

that like, yeah, folks don't need to believe

all of the same things that I believe. They maybe

don't believe any of the same things I believe.

I don't know, but like I can still learn from

them. And they can still like, God can work through

people who don't believe like I do. Right. God

speaks through them to me. Yes. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

And like there there's. Again, I come back to

this word surprise because it's not as though

it is only you receiving either. There is a trust

that the Spirit is sovereignly at work in the

other person's life. And many times it ends up

being the case that there is an insight that

clicks about the gospel as well. And what is

that besides grassroots evangelism? Sure. Right?

Yeah. So there is a trust that... God is working

through that relational dialogical process. For

sure. For sure. Yeah. So then like we've talked

a bit about inter faith spaces. I wonder if you

can speak a bit to like how culture fits into

that. Like, I think there's some difference between

culture and faith and I think there's overlap

there, but like how, how would you distinguish

like inter faith spaces, intercultural spaces?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would like to say that. Any

interfaith space is going to be intercultural,

too. Sure. Even if intercultural does not always

include the faith component. Sure. So I think

culture is much more broadly and loosely defined.

And you can think of it in one way as any group

with which you feel a sense of connection, affinity.

Okay. Then that can be considered part of your

culture. Okay. But anyone else who doesn't share

in that same sense of affinity and belonging.

Sure. would be considered someone who's part

of another culture. Now, of course, that includes

the big ones like ethnicity, generation, socioeconomics,

religion. Yeah. But it could also include like

I'm a Jays fan and I'm a, you know, the Expos

back in the day, whatever. Sure. Yeah. But you

know what I mean? And those are real cultural

differences. When I was in Turkey. In many senses,

it was monocultural. Most people there are Turkish

and from a Turkish background. But football or

soccer is really, really important to Turkish

culture. And yet the different teams really take

on cultural dynamics that are different from

one another. And so there is a meaningful way

in which a supporter of this group and a supporter

of that club are... they're having an intercultural

relationship. There's like a different grammar

happening there to be sure. And so in that sense,

I think culture can work at a very wide and broad

level to help us understand how we navigate similarities

and differences across the board. And then religion

becomes a part of it. But the interesting thing

that happens is if religion is one intercultural

component, there may be other components that

are overlapping. And I think that's what allows

us to build, bridges, surprisingly, with people

who may be religiously different from us. Sure.

There can be a tendency to be like, if you're

Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim or an atheist, then,

oh, it's some this this huge barrier, this fundamental

gap. We cannot understand each other. Right.

And yet with the definition of culture that we

just worked with. there could be many other overlapping

points of cultural affinity. So I think that

dynamic really helps because then we're not as

put off by the religious other as we might be

otherwise. And that, again, postures us in a

position to be surprised, to be open to the possibility

that the spirit might be... prompting something

in my heart through this person. Right. Yeah.

So like when we're, we're maybe not the same

religion, but like maybe we're both parents.

Maybe we are both, you know, from a same generation.

Maybe we are both Jays fans and we can really

get on board with that. Right. Like there are

those connection points, even as there are different

points. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. So then when

you think about like. Churches and followers

of Jesus today, what are some of the biggest

opportunities and challenges that you've seen

people face as they try to navigate these spaces?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think the opportunity

is, again, reflected in the statistics. Sure.

That's not changing. If anything, it's increasing.

It being the influx. to Canada of newcomers from

places where the majority of religion is not

Christianity. And many of these newcomers are

bringing those traditions with them. And so it's

incumbent upon the church if they want to be

faithful to God's mission to engage neighborly.

No one doesn't have to go overseas anymore. I

think that old assumption, it's still... holds

pretty firmly in many church spaces where in

order to witness across religious barriers, you

have to travel somewhere far. Right. Not in Mississauga,

right? Like I just drove past the Hindu Heritage

Center, a masjid, also a Muslim place of worship

on the way here. Yeah. Right. So it's literally

down the street. Yeah. So I think the opportunity

presents itself if you're in Canada, especially

if you're in the GTA, if you're in Mississauga.

Yeah. And so the opportunities are there. I think

the challenge is, is to to make that shift. Sure.

Right. Then to and just to circle back to what

we already talked about, to to feel like this

is only for the experts. Right. That dialogue

is for those who are theologically trained. Right.

Well, the shepherds are not, you know, they didn't

have access to all that, but they had theological

knowledge and everybody has a relationship through

the spirit with with Christ. And so I think we're

all equipped more than we know spiritually to.

to engage. But I think there is that barrier

because it feels like such a, a chasm. For sure.

For sure. But again, recognizing that we do share

a lot in common. Yep. Can, can be a helpful,

not even a first step. It just kind of starts

you off already a few steps. Sure. Down the line.

It gets your head in the right place. For sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then are there any like

resources or next steps that you might like offer

to folks who like want to do this well? Well,

yeah, I will focus again just on the Christian

Muslim dialogue. Sure. Since that's part of my

work. Yep. And I think the resources that come

to mind are the ones that help us see how much

we do have in common. Sure. Because it's so easy

to see. to focus on what isn't similar. Sure.

So, um, I think of some of, uh, these CBC documentaries

that are freely accessible online and I'll, I'll

send them to you. Maybe you can post them in

the show notes or something like that. Um, but

I think of one called 14 and Muslim. Okay. And

I think of one last year, I think, or two years

ago was released called. So you want to be a

Muslim. Now these are films that are made by

Muslim filmmakers or in collaboration with, um,

Canadian Muslim stakeholders. And so it, it tells

their story and it gives folks who are interested

in the church to listen firsthand. Right. Right.

To listen deeply. And with curiosity, you do

not have to agree with everything, but you might

find yourself surprisingly resonating. Like I

get that. Right. I get how a 14 year old will

wrestle with. Being popular in school versus

being faithful to one's religious commitments

when those things feel like they're in intention.

Right. So I think those those documentaries give

us an artistic, accurate. connection with folks

outside our tradition. If you've never watched

Little Mosque on the Prairie, this is a bit of

an older sitcom, but it's incredible. You know,

only in Canada, this literally could not happen

in the United States, but where you have the

sitcom, which was a hit, critical hit and popular

hit. And that allows you as a Christian to step

into in a humorous way. um, some fundamentals

of like, um, Islamic belief, but told from this

Canadian prairies setting. It's like small towns.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love those as

resources that can, that humanize the other.

Sure. Um, that put a face on them that allows

us to see. Eye to eye and connect. And then from

there, the disagreements will arise. Sure. But

it emerges first from that face to face encounter.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think just what sort

of is resonating with me from all of this is

just like the opportunity to get to know people

as people first. And like as here are the things

that we can have in common and learning about

difference. But doing that with that sense of

curiosity and humility, I think is. Yeah. The

way to go for sure. Yeah. Was there anything

else you wanted to leave us with as you reflect

on our conversation? No, I don't think so. I

think that's that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

thank you so much, Alex. This has been a really

helpful conversation, I think, to get some of

your experience, both practical experience and

sort of academic knowledge to bring that together

in a really encouraging way. I think like this

has been helpful for us to think about, you know,

that this is the work of the whole church. that

each one of us has a part to play in just loving

across difference, getting to know people across

difference. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you

so much, Kyla. Yeah. And thank you for tuning

in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I

pray that you are able to find spaces to love

and to engage with wonder and curiosity across

whatever sort of cultural differences you find

yourself in, and maybe even be surprised by how

God shows up there. And we'll see you again next

week.