What Does Culture Have to do with Christianity? | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity

Talks. My name is Kyla and I am excited to be

joined by Dorothy Peng who works at the Tyndale

Intercultural Ministry Center and we're going

to chat a little bit more about what it means

for us as Christians to live in inter... cultural

context and how we do that really well. So thank

you for joining me, Dorothy. Thanks. I'm excited

to be here, Kyla. Yeah. Do you want to maybe

start by introducing yourself a little bit, telling

us a bit about who you are and how you got to

this work with the Tim Centre? Yeah, sure. So

I'm a second generation Chinese Canadian. My

parents are immigrants from Hong Kong. They came

to this country in 1967 when the government first

opened the policy for immigration based on a

point system. So they landed in Saskatchewan

of all places. So yeah, my mother did not speak

a word of English when she arrived in this country.

And Saskatchewan was 97 % Euro -Canadian at that

time. I came along about a year later, and so

I grew up in this Chinese cocoon for the first

five years of my life. Spoke only Chinese, ate

only Chinese food, and just learned all the mannerisms

of what it means to be a Chinese daughter. Sure.

And then I went to public school, and my whole

world changed. Sure. So I learned from a very

early age how to be bicultural, meaning... A

certain set of behaviors at home was considered

respectful. And then a certain set of behaviors

at school had to be adapted. And so I tried,

I learned really early in life how to step in

one culture and then step into a different culture

and to operate in two very diverse cultures.

And to read the underlying. cultural dynamics.

You know, all those unspoken rules of what proper

behavior is and how behavior would be interpreted.

So I learned that at a very early age. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And so as I grew up, I went to law

school and then eventually the Lord led me into

ministry. So I co -led a large intercultural

church and then I also then moved into Tyndale.

Okay. So Tyndale has a division that is outward

facing. We work with leaders who are leading

in intercultural spaces and we help them develop

skills and mindsets about how to navigate all

those cultural dynamics. So it's such a timely

conversation in Canada right now. it's a privilege

for me to be in the middle of all those conversations

yeah yeah and i think neat that like it comes

both from your like passion and the sort of the

skills that god has given you but also like this

deeply personal story too yeah right yeah because

god doesn't waste anything yeah right he always

connects all the dots and so whatever our experiences

are he uses them all for his glory for sure yeah

so When you think about the Canadian context,

why do you think it's important for followers

of Jesus in Canada to be thinking about intercultural

ministry? Yeah, so there is a missiologist, his

name is Andrew Walls, and he talks about how

this is our Ephesians moment. He's referring

to Ephesians 2, where different countries and

people groups are coming together and the walls

that divide us are coming down because we are

centering on Jesus. And so I think that is...

Canada's moment right now. It is our Ephesians

moment. God is bringing the different people

groups from around the world to Canada. Now,

why is he doing that? I think Canadian churches

need to ask ourselves, what is God doing and

how can we join him in that? Because this is

not a fluke. It's not by accident. God is strategically

bringing people groups from around the world

to Canada. I think our culture is looking for

an alternate to itself. In other words, you turn

on the news, we see nothing but hatred, division,

silos, oppression, subordination. And so I think

our culture is looking for an alternate to itself.

I think our culture is desperately needing an

alternate to itself. What is that alternative?

It's the church. It's the body of Christ, right?

Where we have shared belonging. It is the body

of Christ where through Jesus, we are a family

together. Right. Yeah. The church done well,

I think I would say. Yes, exactly. I think there

are ways and spaces sometimes where the church

can perpetuate those silos, but like... The work

that you're doing is to try and bring all of

those pieces together, I think. Yes. And so that's

the encouraging thing for me. Leaders are calling.

Leaders are saying, help me see my blind spot.

So look at me. I am a woman. I'm a person of

color. And the leaders who are calling me are

typically older men, typically European background,

asking. me right to help them see their blind

spots right that is a type of christ -centered

humility that only the holy spirit can prompt

so that is like we should be encouraged that

god is working yeah yeah and so on that like

humility piece like we've had a conversation

before where you talked about not just being

like consumers of a culture, but being like humble

learners in a culture. So can you like tease

apart those differences for us? And what does

that look like? Sure. So for your listeners,

it might be easy to think of two C words. So

consumer of culture or being curious about culture.

So I would say lean into curiosity. So some of

the things that churches love to do these days,

and it's wonderful that they do it, is they have

these multicultural food. festivals, right? Where

they ask their congregants to come together,

everyone bring a piece of some food to share

from their cultural heritage. And I think those

are wonderful gatherings. I think they're just

fun and it brings the church together. I would

say push it a little bit further instead of,

in addition to having all the fun of going from

booth to booth, enjoying the food and the music.

Go with curiosity. Ask the person who is offering

the dish. what is the story behind this dish?

Right. Why is this meaningful to you? One church

I know did a dumpling night. And they define

dumpling as anything with something that is wrapped.

So it doesn't have to be, you know, the dumplings

that say in my Chinese culture, it's pork wrapped

in like wonton wrappers. It could be a taco.

It could be an apple blossom where you have apples

within a pastry. Anything that has, that's being

wrapped by something. Something wrapped in something

else. Yes. So every culture, has something like

that. Sure. And as they did that night, they

had people go up to the microphone and share

the story of why that dish was meaningful. So

in my heritage, dumplings, we serve them every

year on Chinese New Year's. Right. And we don't,

we wrap them as a family. So we put a big vat,

this big pot of minced pork with vegetables in

it right in the center. Yeah. And everyone has

wrappers. Yeah. And there's a certain way to

wrap it because everyone. has their own technique

okay and we chat and we laugh and we tell stories

and then we cook all the dumplings and we serve

it to each other And the shape of the dumplings

is significant. Okay. See, in the old times,

Chinese money was shaped like those dumplings.

Or I should say the dumplings are shaped like

the Chinese money. And so when we offer it to

each other, it's a sign of saying, I wish you

good fortune in the new year. So now that you

know that's my story, when you enjoy our dumplings,

you know, right? I'm wishing you good fortune.

I'm actually blessing you and your family for

this new year. Yeah. It brings a whole new layer

of meaning to it. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And

you feel like you know me a little bit better.

And if you shared your story, I'd feel like I

knew you a little bit better. Right. And that's

how shared belonging with Christ at the center

happens in the family of God. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

So then it requires us to sort of start with

that posture of humility and that willingness

to ask questions and that sort of thing. Exactly.

As opposed to just like, these are delicious

dumplings. Yeah. Like, tell me about them. Yeah,

exactly. Yeah. So move from consuming to curiosity.

Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes when we think

about intercultural conversations and contexts,

we think, OK, I need to learn about the other

person or the other culture. But one of the things,

again, that I've heard you talk about is the

connection between intercultural awareness and

self -awareness. Yeah. And so like, how does

knowing ourselves fit into all of that? Yeah.

So self -awareness is actually the first step

to developing intercultural competency. So we

all view the world through a certain lens. And

sure, we've gone so used to that lens, we don't

even see it anymore. You know, sometimes we compare

it to a fish in a fishbowl. The fish doesn't

see the water that it's swimming in. But someone

from the outside can see the color of the water.

And if you put a new fish into the fishbowl,

the new fish can definitely taste and see and

experience that water. But it's become invisible

to the original fish, right? So that's what I

mean by we need to start with self -awareness.

So ask yourself, how did I learn how to be this

way? So sometimes when I do consulting, I'll

say to someone, what does it mean to be on time?

right and some people will say well being on

time would be to arrive 10 minutes early have

everything set out and then when the time for

the meeting comes i'm ready to start so all the

chit chat is done in the first 10 minutes before

the meeting starts so to be on time is to be

10 minutes early in my culture being on time

for say for church means rolling into the parking

lot at at 11 a .m., let's say the start. And

so even though it takes time for me to walk into

the parking lot, get the kids settled into Sunday

school, I am still on time because I rolled into

the parking lot at 11 o 'clock. So different

cultures, but where did I learn that? So where

did you learn what it means to be on time? That's

culture. That's the unspoken rule of how to be

and how to behave in your world. And so you have

to, so starting with self -awareness, knowing

where you learned those rules that are normal

to you, that's the first step to developing a

cultural awareness and intercultural competency.

And I think it's interesting that like you use

this example of like being on time because I

think people just don't think of that as part

of culture, right? We often think of culture

as like the way that I dress, or the food that

I eat or the language that I speak. But like

it is these other how we show up in the world.

Exactly. Part of our culture. Yes. So sometimes

when I'm teaching, I'll use the iceberg metaphor.

Right. So the things that you mentioned about

culture, dress, food, music, that's all above

the waterline. Yeah. But there's so much more

deeper culture that we need to dig for. And that

is cultural awareness. Right. Yeah. That's intercultural

competency. And I guess then the connection to

self -awareness being like. that my understanding

of this thing is different than the next person's

understanding of this thing. And maybe you didn't

even realize that to start with, right? Like

I just assumed everybody thinks that being on

time is being 10 minutes early. Yes. That's not

it. Exactly. Yeah. So sometimes I encourage,

I encounter people who say, well, I have no culture.

Right. And I, and I, so when they say that, there's

no judgment there. It just tells me that there's

a person who's at the beginning. journey a beginning

of their journey of cultural awareness and self

-awareness because we all have culture sure so

yeah yeah so what would you say in your work

are some of the biggest barriers that people

experience to like coming to better self -awareness

or intercultural competency? Yeah, I would say

the biggest barrier is discomfort. When we encounter

someone who is different from us, someone who

has a different set of unspoken rules of how

to behave in this world, how to understand this

world, there's tension. it's really uncomfortable.

And as church leaders, as Christ followers, we

just want to get along. We just want harmony

in our relationship. So one of the common ways

to deal with that tension is just to... push

it down sure we're not going to deal with it

right and kyla and i can find something else

in common i'm just not going to talk about why

she is always late for our meetings right and

you're not going to talk to me about how i'm

always frowning at you when you walk in on time

and you're on time right yeah we're just not

going to talk about that sure and so i think

the discomfort and the inability to work through

the tension that can be the biggest hurdle for

how we can operate as the family of god right

because we're really there's now this unspoken

barrier between us that we're just tolerating

each other's business uh differences instead

of actually leaning in and say tell me about

that right where did you learn that where did

you learn that being on time is to be 10 minutes

early right and dorothy where did you learn that

being on time means to roll in just at the specified

time right like we need to understand each other

right to have shared belonging and if you were

having that conversation so if that was a real

situation and and you wanted to ask me okay how

how did you learn to always be 10 minutes like

is that how you would word that question or like

how how would you start that conversation yeah

yeah so i would say kyla i noticed that when

our when we have Let's say worship service at

11 o 'clock. You're here by 1030. I'm really

curious. Tell me about that. Where did you learn

to come in so early? I would say so early. And

then you might say, Dorothy, that's not early.

That's on time, right? And then we would have

a conversation about it. No judgment. Hopefully

some laughs and some smiles. And then we go,

oh, okay. Then we would say, well, you know,

if we're going to work together as, let's say,

colleagues. how would we do it together? What

would we together consider to be on time? And

so we would co -create those rules together so

that if you and I ever serve together, we'll

say, okay, Dorothy, to be on time, let's show

up at 1045. I might be, I, Kyla, might be here

at 1030, but if we can agree 1045, let's do that

together. Sure. And we'll say, sure. Right. Right.

Yeah. But you're not imposing your rules on me

and I'm not imposing my rules on you. Sure. We're

actually having a conversation and we're going

to co -create it together. Sure. Yeah. And so

then I think it seems like it then requires both

some sort of pre -existing relationship where

like we. This would not be my first conversation

with you, hopefully. And yeah, that attitude

of curiosity and non -judgment is so key. Yes,

exactly. You nailed it. Yeah. So if folks are

wanting to sort of... dive more into this world

and figure out how do I do intercultural competency

well? How do I do this? Like what are some resources

or next steps? Yeah, great question. So at the

TIM Center, we do an assessment. So if you've

ever done Myers -Briggs, those kinds of DISC,

those kinds of assessment, this is similar. So

we do an assessment. It's 50 questions. It's

online. And it measures how you are handling

that tension. Okay. Right. Just like we had talked

about that discount. Are you squishing it down?

Are you avoiding it? Are you leaning in with

curiosity? So that's an assessment tool that

you can do. A different assessment tool. equally

as good is to measure your skill level, your

knowledge, and your strategy. So there's two

different assessment tools. I like to use the

analogy of a personal trainer. Let's say you're

hiring me as your personal trainer. I can give

you a workout plan and you can do it for eight

weeks. But if that's all I give you, then once

you stop doing those exercises and I haven't

changed your attitude about food, about sleep,

about... you deal with stress you're going to

go right back to your old Sure. Bold habits.

So that's the difference between these two assessments.

Okay. One is about transforming your mindset.

Right. The other one is about changing your behaviors.

Okay. You actually need both, but depending on

where the leader is, we can have a discussion

about which of the assessments they want to do

first. Sure. Because we really do need both.

Sure. Okay. Yeah. And then, of course, there

are books that you can read. Okay. Perhaps I

can give those to you and you can put them as

your podcast notes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, some

books. Yeah. For recommendations. Okay. cool

okay are there any that come to mind for you

right now or yeah so uh i like uh many colors

by sun chan raw he is an american uh korean theologian

and professor uh there is a great book if you

want to go even deeper on contextualizing theology

because we all approach scripture we don't approach

it empty -handed we approach it through our cultural

lens yeah so that's a great book and if you really

want to be poked yeah uh there There's a great

book on our understanding of... indigenous Christianity.

And it's called Rescuing the Gospel from the

Cowboys. So it's a great title by Richard Twist.

So yeah, those might be some books, depending

where you're coming in on the conversation from,

that you want to look into. Yeah, no, that's

awesome. Okay. Yeah. Is there anything else you

wanted to sort of leave us with? Any closing

thoughts as we think about, yeah, what's important

in this realm of intercultural competency? Yeah,

I want to, I would say, I've been thinking a

lot about the Church of Antioch. a place where

people were coming in from all parts of the world.

And yet with Christ at the center, with all those

social categories gone now, right? There's neither

Greek nor Jew, male or female, slave or free,

right? The only term to call this new group that

emerged was... christian yeah and so i would

say that embedded into the word christian so

if we consider ourselves to be christ followers

yeah embedded into that name is our multicultural

intercultural dna sure right to be a christian

is to be people where the social categories are

eliminated they're like obliterated and there

is no other word to describe us than christ followers

and so i go back again to our ephesians moment

this is our ephesians moment sure let's let's

um be that body of christ an alternative that

our culture is looking for for sure where everybody

belongs yeah that's awesome that's so beautiful

i think to think about especially Yeah, like

the ways that our faith is enriched by the diversity

of it. And yeah, to sort of go back to where

Rob began our whole teaching series was like,

this was God's plan from the very beginning that

we all get to be part of this diverse family

of God and learn from each other and reflect.

the fullness of God in our diversity. Yes, 100%.

For sure. Well said. Yeah. Well, thank you so

much for joining me, Dorothy. Yeah. This has

been a really good conversation. Yes, it has

been. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And thank you.

for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity

Talks. I hope that you have found some little

nuggets to be able to grasp onto and to think

about how are you affected by the culture in

which you have sort of been raised in, but then

also how can you become more curious about the

culture of your neighbors? And we will see you

again next week.