What Black Christians Want You To Know | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I am joined

here by two folks who are members of our congregation

here at Trinity. And we're going to talk a little

bit more about race and faith and Black history

and just like what it is like to sort of be people

of color in the midst of a multicultural church.

So thank you for joining me, folks. Happy to

be here. Yes. Happy Black History Month. Yes.

Yeah, so maybe we'll get started, do a little

bit of introduction. So Jen, do you want to start

us off here? Sure. My name is Jen Agard. I've

been going to Trinity for 29 years. My parents

are from Barbados. They met and married in England

and I was born in England. I came to Canada when

I was three. Okay. So I'm pretty much Canadian.

Yes. Okay. You know, I always thought that you

were born in Barbados and then went to England.

Ah, okay. Well, there you go. Learn something

new every day. Yes. Okay. And my name's Curlin

McLean. You'll probably recognize me for making

all the noise in there. back there playing the

drums. I was born in the island of St. Vincent,

and St. Vincent is across the street from Barbados,

actually. If you look at the map, and you'll

see that all the islands in the Caribbean go

in an arc, and Barbados, they're special, they

stick out by themselves. And if you look directly

across from Barbados, you'll see St. Vincent

right there. And I used to go to, when I was

a kid, I went to a Methodist church in St. Vincent.

And the church, it's an old, I wouldn't be surprised

if that church was built in the 1800s. Okay,

wow. And my memories of going to that church

as a kid, I was 11 years old when I came to Canada.

Sure. It was just about 30 years ago. What I

remembered most about the church is that we used

to have an event called Harvest around October,

November. you know the kids in the church would

participate in the harvest event we'd have to

memorize scripture or read a poem or something

like that and there was always music music music

music everywhere it's always vibrant music in

the church and that was one of the things that

i brought from the caribbean with me here to

further my faith journey here so it's So people

from Vincent are called Vincentians or Vincy

for short. And yeah, so my journey is the Vincy

journey, the Vincy experience and the Caribbean,

sorry, and the Canadian journey afterwards. Okay,

very cool. Yeah. So are there any ways that you

think, like, I guess you've already sort of brought

us into this a little bit, Carolyn, like that

your race or your like cultural background have

impacted the way that you. believe or the way

that you practice your faith um yeah it's been

well i mentioned the the harvest harvest was

the big community thing for for us and and what

i see here at trinity well when i started coming

to trinity i came i came here i think in like

1994 i'm aging myself uh back in 1994 and um

It just kind of grew from there. The church kind

of grew from there culturally, I find. I find

that there's a lot more different. It's a lot

more diverse now than it was back in 1994. There's

more cultures. But what I see is that the harvest

and the community spirit that we have here at

Trinity is what I look forward to most. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, for sure. So I grew up at St. Brad's

Church. Okay. Which was, there were a few Caribbean

families there. It was predominantly white. But

my mother exposed us to a lot. Like I joined

youth group. And I was pretty much the only kid

of color in youth group. Okay. But I never felt

that I was any different than anybody else. We

had different events that would happen. My mom

sang in the choir. And they did actually give

us an opportunity to have like an evening of

diversity where we would sort of. introduce our

Caribbean roots to them. I wouldn't say that

my Caribbean roots really were any different

than what I was experiencing at St. Bride's.

Because my parents, the foundation of Christianity

was how we were raised. And in our home, it wasn't

like we prayed together or we read scripture

together. We did watch Billy Graham. That was

a staple in our house. Every Sunday we had to

watch Billy Graham. There was no talking when

that was happening. And as far as coming to Trinity,

I don't think there is any difference. The only

big difference is what Carolyn mentioned is diversity.

Right. The huge amount of diversity that is here

at Trinity as compared to St. Bride's. Right.

But I mean, I had a really good experience at

St. Bride's being in youth groups singing. I

sang in a folk group. That's when I first started

singing. My mom sang in the choir. So eventually

she made me sing in the choir. Sure. But yeah,

I don't think there was really any difference.

Okay. I felt the same too. There was a bit of

a difference for me. When we came to Canada,

my mom didn't come. She was Anglican, and that

was baptized Methodist. To be honest, I don't

even know what Methodist is. But anyhow, when

we were living in Don Mills, and she found an

Anglican church across the street. sort of across

us, but we had to walk a bit of a distance to

get there. And she sent me and my younger brother

to this Anglican church. And when we went, we

had to dress in suit and tie every Sunday. And

same in St. Vincent. When I lived in St. Vincent,

we always went to church. Church for us in St.

Vincent, we had the whole family was there in

the morning. And then in the afternoon, the kids

would go back for Sunday school. So it wasn't

incorporated. It was a whole day event. Then

when I left, my parents in Pickering and moved

to Mississauga, I was in search of a church because

my mother was shoving the Anglican church on

me. She wasn't really shoving it on me, but I

appreciate it. That's it. I started searching

for a church and I landed here. This was the

first church that I found and it's the only church

that I've ever explored. I've been to other churches,

but this is the only church that I stayed at.

It was the first one that I found and came here.

And I came dressed in suit and tie. And I looked

around and everyone else was wearing just casual.

And I came the second time and I dressed in suit

and tie again. I looked around. It was so different

from what I was accustomed to. Back in St. Vincent

and going to the Anglican Church out in Don Mills.

And then after that, I just started dressing

casually like everyone else. But I would say

that's more of a cultural thing because in the

West Indies, because at St. Bride's, we always

dressed up. But the whole church did. Sure. So

coming to Trinity, it was like that when I first

came. But then I noticed that it became more

casual. And I think that was more to introduce

other people into the church who may not be able

to dress. you know? Sure. The way we grew up,

we had Sunday school clothes that were just for

Sunday school. That's right. Yes. That was our

respect for the church. And it's not to say that

people don't dress, but that's just the way that.

you know, Caribbean, I guess black people are

when it comes to church, it's someplace that

is respected and honored. So you dress that way.

Sure. So a lot of people still in this church,

I see there are still people that dress that

way. Yeah. And they may not understand when they

see other people that are not dressed that way.

And that's where it comes from. It's not necessarily,

it's not a judgment. It's just a cultural thing.

Sure. Where when you go to church, you dress

properly, right? Or what's considered proper.

Right. By dressing up. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm

wearing jeans today, which I rarely do because

it's still in the back of my mind that I have

to dress properly. But today is not one off for

me. Well, they're black jeans, so they're a little

nicer, right? It didn't matter. I remember asking

once if I could wear jeans or cords to church,

and my mother just stared at me like I had two

heads. You're never allowed to mix the two together.

They're separate. When you come to church, you

honor church by dressing appropriately. Okay.

Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. yeah um so when

you think about maybe it's culture maybe it's

race like are there ways that that those aspects

of your identity have like created challenges

or have created like moments of joy as you mix

you know like your cultural and racial identity

with your like faith identity I think the only

challenge for me growing up was I never saw anyone

in leadership that looked like me. I'm staying

in the choir, but I wouldn't say that was really

leadership. Sure. There was nobody like in the

pulpit. No, there was no one in the pulpit. And

there were maybe a few groups, volunteer groups,

but still in those groups, you never saw anyone

that was different. And I think even now when

we're looking at diversity here at Trinity and

we're trying to engage people, when it comes

to black people, I think that's what part of

it is, is that. never saw that before. So, you

know, why now are they interested in having me

join this group? But it's nice to see that people

are starting to do it, which is great. But that's

probably where it comes from. That would be the

only challenge for me at that time. I don't find

that challenge here anymore because I've had

the opportunity to be involved in a lot of different

ministries and some leadership, some, you know,

all volunteer, but some leadership, some just

walking alongside. So that's been. a joy rather

than a challenge. Sure. But that would be the

only challenge that, you know, just knowing that

from my past and not being sure whether, you

know, can I actually do that? Am I okay to do

that? Right. But watching Trinity over the years,

it's evolved quite a bit. Sure. Where it's opened

the doors to allow anybody to do anything. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's really positive. For sure. Yeah.

And like you were serving as like a warden. for

our church for a while. So like, that was like

one of like the, the top three sort of leadership

roles, kind of, kind of in the church. And so

like, yeah, in some ways I think you're like

blazing a path so people can like look at that.

That's true. That's true. Jen did that. So like

I can do that. Well, and that's what I hope.

Yeah. Because there are a lot of people that

want to do a lot of things and they don't necessarily

want to be involved because they're not sure.

Yeah. And sometimes. They look to me to be the

person involved and I try to encourage people.

Now you get involved and I see that there are

a lot of people getting involved in different

things, you know, that, you know, that are not

actually in the forefront, but still, I think

it's a slow progression to that. Yeah, for sure.

And similar to Jen, I was able to participate

in some of the. The activities here at the church.

I was a deputy warden, if you want to call it

that, or advisory. I was on the advisory committee

on the Trinity as well. But I started playing

with the worship team here in 2008, I think it

was. And I actually never saw myself up there

up front. At one point, I was actually assisting

with leading worship up there. And I never saw

myself in that capacity at this church. I was

given that opportunity in my professional career.

I did experience this is external to the church.

I did experience a challenging time where I was

a police officer and I was pretty much forced

out of the police service because of racial discrimination.

We won't get into all the dirty details of that.

But when we come to church and when I come to

church and. I bring that weight of me as a Black

person with that challenge of navigating what

was supposed to be me helping enforce justice

out there in the community and navigating around

the injustices of the racial discrimination that

I experienced in the police service. And when

we come into the church, I bring that weight

with me into the sanctuary. And some people don't.

We all come into the church for different reasons.

And sometimes some of my friends who don't go

to church or are non -believers, why do you go

to church? Well, I still need my spiritual nourishment.

That's why I come in. But not everybody comes

in sharing the same. experience that I endured.

And so when we walk in, you don't know what's

Curlin carrying today. When he goes up for communion,

what's he carrying with him? When we're in the

moment of prayer, what's he praying for? What's

so heavy on his heart? What's so heavy on Jen's

heart today that we need to pray for? Sure. You

never know what we're carrying, what we're experiencing.

And on that, I think that a lot of people don't

believe that we that we experience racism now.

They believe that, oh, you know, it doesn't happen

here or, you know, even in the States, people

don't believe that some of the stuff that's going

on is real. Yeah. And and I think what Kerlin

is saying, what I feel, too, is that sometimes

people need to. to think about what it's like

to walk in our shoes because I experienced that

in my, in my workplace too. And that was in 2018.

Right. And people still experience it today.

And, and it's not to say that, you know, the

church is kind of the sanctuary. It's a place

where we can bring that to God. But I, I also

think that we can't forget that it happens everywhere,

like even in a church. And I'm not saying Trinity,

but I, when I was. asked to do this, I was talking

to a couple about what I was going to do. And

they mentioned that maybe five to 10 years ago,

they were in a church where they sat in a pew

by themselves, even during the holidays when

it was packed, nobody would sit in their pew

because they were the only people of color in

their church. And that's disappointing, but it's

real. And I think that people need to recognize

that this is real. This is not something that

just happens or that we just believe in our minds.

We actually experienced it. But it's nice to

know that you can come to a church where There's

so much diversity and everybody respects everyone

and everyone is so welcoming. And I think that's

why we have so many people coming to Trinity.

It's because they feel welcome. They look around

and they see that. And they now see everybody

up on the pulpit doing different things, whether

it's worship, whether they're reading scripture

or praying or serving or welcoming, whatever

it is. Everybody's there. Everybody's there.

Not to belabor Jen's point, but it's really,

really heartbreaking when I'm talking to somebody

who's white, for example, and you tell them about

some of the things that we experienced. And as

Jen said, they would respond with, that doesn't

really happen. And it's really, really heartbreaking.

I was really, I think it was September when Charlie

Kirk was shot and killed. I absolutely don't

condone violence in any form, sort or shape or

form. But when that event happened, I was surprised

to find that some people actually from this church

was posting on social media their sorrow and

their support for Charlie Kirk in a way. Yes,

grieve for Charlie Kirk that he was violently

killed, but they supported him in a way that

was deplorable. Because Charlie Kirk had made

some really, really disparaging comments about

black people. Actually, I think I've made a couple

of notes about what he had said. One of the things

what he had said was Joy Reid was a TV reporter.

Joy Reid, Ketanji Brown Jackson, the Supreme

Court Justice and Michelle Obama. They stole

white people's jobs because they did. And they

shouldn't have because they don't have the brain

capacity to be in those roles. I think it was

something to that effect. He also said something

about, if I see a white pilot at the airport,

I have to stop and wonder if he's a diversity

hire and if he's properly qualified to fly the

plane. But he wouldn't say that about somebody

who's white. Really broke my heart to see people

who I thought were my friends support that ideology.

Sure. I think in that case, and I'm not making

excuses, I think people have a hard time separating.

Sure. You know, what that person is from the

fact that they are, you know, yes, they've lost

their lives and that's understandable. But I

think sometimes. They may be separating the fact

and thinking, oh, you know, but he's still a

person. And yes, he is still a person. But you

can't, as Carly was saying, you can't forget

where he was coming from. And it's hard for us

to feel, you feel sorrow because you don't want

anyone to be hurt ever. I don't want to do violence

either. But be real about who the person is.

You know, don't try to hide behind it because

he lost his life. It's unfortunate he lost his

life. But the type of person he was was not a

good person. Right. And didn't care for people

like myself and Carolyn. Right. And other diverse

people in the world. Right. So it is hurtful.

And you can't really talk about it because then

your loved one is being angry because black people

are angry, apparently. And we're not angry. We

just want justice like anybody else does. Not

that that's justice, but in terms of understanding

what we go through and what's said about us and

how we perceive those things and how we feel

when we hear those things. For sure. Yeah. And

just figuring out how do we hold sorrow for the

loss of a life and also. sorrow for the damage

that that life did yes right like it's yeah and

Jen might feel differently about this but when

I saw that uh people who I associate with or

associated with were posting those types of comments

yeah and I reflected on it and I thought there

there's that's their view and I thought that

I should have taken an opportunity to um because

they don't believe that These things actually

happened to us. Sure. And I should have taken

that opportunity to sort of correct them and

say, like, we actually really do experience these

things. And but I didn't. I just left it alone.

And sometimes I think you have to you needed

a chance to step back, though, and look at it

and determine how do I want to respond to it?

Because sometimes when you see things like that,

you initially want to respond in a way that may

not be, you know, correct. And you don't it's

not about. having a debate back and forth is

about trying to understand each other and where

we're coming from yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah

i think there's a lot of moments where we ask

ourselves okay what what is the right thing for

me to do here right and like sometimes it is

to engage and sometimes that's just like not

the work i can do today yeah and it depends on

the people that you're dealing with because if

they're not going to be open to hearing it right

then why are you wasting your breath to say anything

you just understand you appreciate that they're

letting you know where they stand yeah and i

appreciate that more than anything i know where

you stand now so yeah yeah so like when you think

about bringing all of these experiences into

the church like has church felt like a place

where you can like do that well and like be able

to like come together and like share some of

that that sorrow and that heaviness I mentioned

my police career. Back in 2000, I had a very

dramatic incident that happened with me at work.

And around that time, we were meeting at Hazel

McAllen Public School. The event happened on

the Friday, and I went to church on the Sunday,

and I was just sitting there in the pew. I think

it was Diane Toyson and Dave and Harold Percy

was the pastor at the time. And they actually

came and grabbed me out of the pew and took me

into a room. They had heard about what had happened.

Yeah. And they prayed for me. Yeah. I didn't

know that they were aware, but it was coming

into the church and having the community pray

for me in such a way that was really like. They're

here for me. They knew what happened and they

came and they got me. And that's what I see in

Trinity, that this whole community of diverse

people are all coming together and sharing together,

much like when I was in St. Vincent and we had

our harvest. in October or November, whenever

it was. And that whole community came together

and there was, you know, there was joy, there

was music, there was, you know. But that's what

I appreciated was that the community was there

to support me. And that's what I appreciate about

the fact that I was accepted into a Trinity.

Yeah, it's intentional fellowship. You know,

it's, yes, we have culture, we have diversity,

but at the end of the day, we have a church community.

And to me, For example, my faith doesn't have

a color. My faith is about my relationship with

Christ. It's not because I'm black. My relationship

with Christ is different. Everybody's faith is

different. That I agree with. But having a relationship

with Christ is not about the color of your skin

or the culture or diversity that you belong to.

It's that relationship that you have with Christ.

And that goes into the community and fellowship

as well. It's not about... the color of anyone's

skin. It's about what is that person going through?

Let's pray with that person. It's not about,

well, is it okay because they're different? It

doesn't happen here at Trinity. Everybody cares

about everyone. I mean, and it's not to say that,

yeah, you may have people in the church that

may not agree with that, but that really doesn't

matter because God's working on those people,

right? So we're focused as a community to care

for each other and help each other and acknowledge

each other and see each other. that's the most

important thing is that we see each other. And

I think at Trinity, we do that. Yeah. We see

each other. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So are

there things, I know we've sort of talked a little

bit about this, but are you thinking, are there

things that you wish like more people understood

about like black people's experiences of faith

or of church? I know we already talked about

this, but as far as the way that we dress. Yeah.

No, like. As casual as Trinity is, I can tell

you there are a lot of Caribbean people who are

not going to dress casual. Sure. Because it's

ingrained in their mind, as Carolyn said, that

this is the way. Sure. But it's not to put anybody

else down. They're just like that. And if you

do have someone say something, it's just because

it's ingrained in them. Sure. That's how you

dress for church. Yep. And the other thing, too,

is we move when we worship. Like, I can't stay

still when music is going on. I have to move.

And, you know, sometimes... Sometimes I'm the

only one moving. Sure. But I don't. It's just

who we are. Because if you ever go to the islands,

people do not stay still when they're worshiping.

Sure. They don't. If you go to a Pentecostal

church, they definitely don't stay still. My

sister -in -law came here. We had the Toronto

Mass Choir here one time. Oh, yeah. I remember

that. And my sister -in -law is white and she's

Pentecostal. Yeah. So we were sitting in the

pew and she got up and I wondered where she was.

She was in the back getting into it. And she

said to me, what's wrong with these people? I

said, they're very Anglican, but they're learning.

But I think too that, and that's an opportunity

for us to maybe show people that it's okay to

move to music. And I noticed there's a lot of

people that will, but there's still some people

that are very still because in the Anglican church,

you know, it's not really known that you do that,

but I've always been like that. I just, you know,

when I first came in and I noticed that people

didn't do it, I thought, should I be doing this?

And eventually I, and I didn't, but eventually.

It can't be helped. And as I hear music, my body

just starts to move. Sure. And that's how I worship.

Remember that time I was leading worship this

one time and the congregation, they were clapping

on one and three and I had to stop the music.

And I said, you people are driving me nuts. You

don't clap on one and three, you clap on two

and four. It's like this. Clap, clap. The following

weeks after that, everyone started doing the

clapping thing on 214. But Jen, that was great

that you brought up the whole music thing because

I'm part of the worship team and I play the drums.

If you go to the Caribbean, even today, you get

on a bus going into the city, there's music blasting

in the bus that's going into the city. And nobody

cares that they're blasting the music. And very

often you will hear them playing Christian music

in the buses. There was one song that we play

here. I forgot what it is, but it has a bit of

an island beat to it. It would have been great

today. I saw Pat playing the bass up there today.

And I thought that because often when he plays,

we play this song. And like I said, it's got

a bit of a Caribbean beat to it. And it would

have been perfect for today with the weather

being so cold outside. It brought some of that

Caribbean sunshine. We had actually tried to.

To bring Julie Frost. As a matter of fact, Julie

passed away four years ago today. Okay. Wow.

As a matter of fact, around this time was when

her husband said goodbye to her. She had a group

of people from this church that got involved

with playing the steel drums. I was one of them.

Okay. Very cool. Wow. Yeah. It was a lot of fun.

Yeah. But we had like. It wasn't just us, though.

We had, I think, Carol. Yes, and Ted. Ted. They

were both there, too. Carol and Ted Smith. Yeah.

Okay. Very cool. And we actually had the steel

band come here to the church and play out in

the lobby here. Very cool. And perform two or

three songs, I think it was. It was very nice

to get that. that Caribbean experience into the

church. But sadly, um, Julie passed and we didn't

get to carry on. Sure. Somebody else could have

taken up the torch, but maybe you get some steel

drums back in the sanctuary. Music is a big part

of who we are. And I've been singing since I

was a kid. Cause my mom, she was one kind of

encouraged me, kind of enforced me to do it.

But it's always part of who we are. And that's

how one of the ways that I mean, when you go

back to slavery times, that's the way they communicated

in the fields. Sure. Most of those hymns that

you hear, like Swing Low, Sweet Chariot. Yeah.

And there's a whole bunch of them. I can't think

of them. Michael Rowe, The Boat of Shore. Those

were songs that were actually messages to the

slaves in the field and to also the slaves that

were on the run. Yeah. To let them know. That

they were safe when it was time to go or in the

field, letting them know that I'm going to be

going. Are you going to come with me? Yeah. You

know, so it's always been a part of who you are.

It's a part of our communication. That's right.

So back in the days of slavery, as Jen pointed

out, they used the drums and the music for communicating

messages. big part of the Caribbean culture.

As a matter of fact, right now in Trinidad they're

having Carnival. And Carnival stems from that

whole Days of Slavery thing where they use the

music to communicate all. And we have Caravana

here in August. August is probably a better time

to be having a festival outdoors than the middle

of February. Yeah, for sure. So then like, yeah,

I just, as I think about all of this, like there's

so much like richness in like what you're saying

and like so much richness in like just being

part of this really diverse sort of group of

people and being able to like be yourselves and

like bring yourself into that space. Yeah. It

just like seems really important. It is important.

It's important to feel like you're part of something,

especially growing up when you, from my childhood

mostly. That was a time when you would hear,

you know, comments about you. Sure. From other

kids. And, you know, even as a teenager joining

a youth group, it was kind of uncomfortable and

I didn't want to go. But, you know, my mother

said, you're going. So I went. Yeah. And then

so those people in my youth group, we still connect

from time to time, you know, and which is pretty

awesome. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Feeling connected

there, feeling connected here at Trinity. You

know, it doesn't matter what you're doing. You're

always connected to something and something.

Like I have the opportunity of helping out with

a community dinner, which is pretty awesome.

I get to sit with people in our community and

just chat with them. And they don't care about

color or anything like that. They're just happy

to have someone sit and talk with them. And when

I'm looking at them, I'm looking at them as people,

not, oh, they're, you know. So being able to

come out of that and not have to worry about

the fact that I'm different. I know who I am.

When I'm in my fellowship group, whether it's

life group, whether it's worship, it doesn't

matter. I'm just Jen. Yeah, that's awesome. So

if folks are sort of thinking about this and

maybe there's some new information that folks

are hearing or maybe it's just stuff they haven't

thought too deeply about, are there things that

you would encourage people to do to better understand

diversity, to better understand racial experiences

and that sort of thing? And one of the things

that people can do, and it's one of the things

that Rob has talked about or encouraged people

to do. If you see someone new here at the church

that you don't recognize, go up and talk to them.

But to me, that's just being polite. But you

should just go and speak to somebody who doesn't

look like you. And then beyond that, go. Go past

just being polite. Sure. Get to know that person.

Sure. Invite them out for coffee. Invite them

over for dinner. Don't just be polite at church

just for the sake of being polite. Get to know

them over dinner or coffee or something else

like that. So for me, there is someone in our

church whose culture that I'm very interested

in. She and I are going to go out. We haven't

had some time yet to have a coffee just so I

could get to know her culture a little bit more.

I've always been interested. And there's this

person in my church who is that culture. So I

should. Why not? So I have approached her to

say, you know what? I'd really like to learn

more about you. And so we are going to go out

and have a coffee and just see, you know, and,

you know, and as you get to know people, then

it's a little bit more comfortable for you to

ask them out. you know, to have dinner together.

But I think the beginning part is just to, to

just saying hello is, is the first. Sure. Right.

Yeah. And then, so I'm really excited to go out

and learn about more about her culture. Yeah.

So that's one way that you can do it. You know,

if you want to learn about a specific culture,

we have so many diverse people here. Just approach

them and say, Hey, you know what? I'm really

interested in knowing about how your faith, just

what we're doing right now. You might even have

her, but I'll still go out and have coffee with

you just to get to know her better. So there's

always those opportunities and Taste of the World

is a great thing. It's a great way to start because

now we have a cookbook coming out of that. That's

pretty amazing. So that's pretty amazing. I couldn't

come because I had to go to a 40th birthday party.

But I heard it was amazing. And I remember years

ago when we had it, it was pretty amazing. Yeah.

You know, it was a lot of fun. And we actually,

I think we had a show too, where people were

able to do, and I'm not sure they did that with

this one, but people were able to perform and,

you know, show a little bit of their culture

that way, which was, and we had a fashion show

too. Okay. Which was kind of fun, but it's a

great way to get to know people and who they

are and where they come from and what they're

about and how their faith, you know, works into

that. And for me, I guess faith doesn't, As far

as what faith is and as far as diversity, I don't

think that for me, it doesn't really have anything

to do with my diversity or who I am. It does

in terms of how I was raised. But even that,

I mean, I'm Canadian. So, like, you know, I didn't

have the experience of going to church in the

Caribbean. I have gone back with my parents to

go to church. And even like the whole. back to

the dressing thing, even in 110 degree weather,

people are dressed into the nines. They got jackets

on and pantyhose. I'm like, you know, I'm dying,

but you know, but all of that is so important

to different people in different ways. And just

learning about that, you know, and understanding

where people are coming from. Sure. It helps

us to be better understanding. I did say understanding,

but maybe understanding is not the right word,

but. It helps us not even to be prepared, but

to just to just get ourselves more involved in

people's cultures and understand diversity for

what it is. Yeah. Understand is not the wrong

word, but having an understanding of who we are,

like black people, we're not all the same. Like

Jen, as I just find out that she was born and

raised in England, so she would have different

experiences in her. English church than I would

have had in my Caribbean church. Yeah, except

there's only three, so I don't really have any

experience. I know that we have some African

members of our congregation. They listen to different

music than some Black people listen to hip -hop,

some don't. Some Black people listen to Caribbean

music, some don't. Right. But to your point,

because I was brought up in Canada, I don't really

have any, I'm Canadian. Sure. I wish I could

say I was Caribbean, but I'm not. I grew up with

Caribbean music, but I grew up in the church

here. So I'm not familiar with Caribbean. Like

my parents played them, but I grew up in Canada.

So I was three. So I grew up in the church here.

So I'm very Anglican. The difference is that

evangelical is different for me, which is pretty

awesome because it's a different way to worship.

So for me, that's my different way of worshiping

and understanding my faith. At the end of the

day, we all pray to the same God. My most favorite

way of worshiping is through music. And you probably

know that a lot of our songs that we play up

on the stage comes right from scripture. We play

10 ,000 Reasons. That's right from scripture.

Sorry, I can't quote the passage right now. I

was going through a period back in 2023. I usually

keep some stuff to myself. But I was going through

a period back in 2023. And my anthem for a good

couple of weeks was Battle Belongs by Jeremy.

Is it Jeremy? No, it was Phil Wickham. And I

played that song daily. And that song is also

straight from scripture. The battle belongs to

God. And, you know, because I was saying that

at the end of the day, we all listen to scripture

through music. Yeah. Despite the fact that we're

all different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like

it's like just hearing you talk about, you know,

things like like how we dress and music and how

we move in church and all these different things.

Right. Like these are all important differences

that like. But they're kind of like surface level

differences, really. I mean, like there's different

ideologies and like thoughts and beliefs behind

it. But like Jesus is still Jesus. We're all

still doing the same faith thing, even if it

like looks different or even if we like emphasize

different parts differently. And I think that

was God's purpose, wasn't it? Sure. Day of Pentecost.

Yeah. He's the one that made everyone's, you

know, languages change and voices change. And

so. You know, I think as much as we have diversity

and we have different cultures, at the end of

the day, we all belong to God. Yeah. We're all

worshiping the same God. And it's nice to have

those differences. Yeah. But at the same time,

I think that we're all the same people. Yeah.

We're all Christians. And I won't be doing that.

That's how different we are. Okay. No high fives.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much, folks. I

appreciate. your like honesty and vulnerability

in this conversation. And I appreciate, yeah,

just the way that you have brought your whole

selves into this and been so willing to share

and help us get to have a little bit of a picture

of like what church looks like through your eyes

and how we can all. come together and support

and care for one another in the midst of our

diverse experiences. So thank you so much. Thank

you for having me. Thanks for the opportunity.

Appreciate it. And thank you for joining us for

this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Wherever

you find yourself, whether it's in a diverse

church or a monocultural church, whether you

are a person of color or not, I pray that God

meets you there and that you are able to find

a community that can walk with you and support

you in all. of the various areas of our lives.

We'll see you again next week.