How To Talk About Jesus Without Being Pushy | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. My name is

Amalvel. My name is Elizabeth. And I'm Hugh.

And we are here to continue our conversation

about spiritual practices. What are some of the

habits, the things that we can do to help us

grow in our walk with Christ? And today we're

talking about the spiritual practice of witness.

And witness is kind of a... I don't know if it's

a fancy word, but it's a Christian word that

we use for sort of telling people about our faith.

And so we're going to talk through, you know,

what are some of the things that makes that really

great? What are some of the things that make

that really hard? Why do people not want to tell

other people about their faith sometimes? Yeah.

And hopefully we can find some encouragement

in the midst of the conversation as well. But

yeah, just as we start thinking about, you know,

what is the spiritual practice of witness? What

would you sort of say to help define it? Do you

want to start us off, Hugh? Sure. I would describe

witnessing as different from evangelism. Yeah.

Witnessing is really living and walking with

someone out of deep love. It's journeying with

someone. Evangelism would be more like speaking

about Christian principles, maybe to a large

audience or maybe to a small group. But it's

using words more than attitude or more than your

life. Right. Witnessing is living out of deep

love from your life. So that's how I would say

it. Yeah, so it's like more relational in some

ways. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. What

would you add to that, Elizabeth? I would say

the spiritual practice of witnessing is to bear

witness to the truth of the gospel, helping to

bring others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

It is understood that while... Believers are

called to communicate the message. It is the

Holy Spirit who actively converts the earth.

Then on the other hand, evangelism actively explaining

the biblical story of salvation to a friend or

an individual leading a Bible study or preaching

the gospel message. in a structured way right

so then like evangelism can kind of be like a

subset of witnessing sometimes like sometimes

we use these words interchangeably but they are

focused a little bit differently And I think

I really appreciate the point that you made about,

like, relying on the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I

think we think, oh, when I'm witnessing or when

I'm sharing my faith with someone, it's my job

to, like, convince them, right? And that's not

our job, right? We have to depend on the Holy

Spirit to lead. We do the part that we can do,

and we leave the rest up to God. Yeah. What would

you sort of add to that, Amalvel? I would sort

of look at it almost like witnessing as in, like,

even from like a like a justice standpoint like

in the sense of can other people recognize you

as christian in your life you know even if they're

not christian themselves can they recognize you

as christian through your words your actions

how you live your life can you look at somebody

and say there goes a christian person right okay

yeah yeah just that ability to so then it doesn't

even need to be necessarily about the things

that we say It can be, but it's about living

with integrity and living like Jesus. Yeah, exactly.

In all of the places that we live our lives,

at work, at school. Because we can say that we're

Christian and then be the complete opposite of

it. Sure. That's why Jesus says in the Sermon

on the Mount, you know. That many will say, Lord,

Lord, and say that they did things in his name.

Right. You know, but Jesus will say to some,

depart from me, I never knew you. Right. So witnessing

is making sure that you're living while respecting

and honoring Jesus. Right. You're living a life

where Jesus can say, you know, you did well.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Okay, so that gives us a sort

of conceptual idea of what witnessing is. Can

we make that a little more practical? Like, what

does witnessing look like? What does it look

like to sort of share your faith with other people?

What are ways that we might do that? Well, I

think Jesus gave us the first clue, if you want.

He said, love one another. And that's how they'll

know that you're Christians. And so the various

forms of love that we can extend to people. If

someone is struggling, you give them a call or

you take them out to lunch. Or one of the most

powerful ways, I think, of loving someone is

to deeply listen to them. And that's easier said

than done, because when you deeply listen to

someone, it means that you suspend your own agenda,

you suspend your own noise in your head. And

for that very moment, the person that's sitting

in front of you is the most important person

in the world. That's kind of deep listening.

And that's a real example, I think, of the kind

of love that Jesus was talking about. And that's

that to me is is powerful witnessing. And I think

that's a really important part of it that we

don't often think about. Like often when we think

about witnessing or sharing our faith, we think,

oh, I need to be saying things. I need to be

doing things. But actually, the practice of just

listening to another person's story and being

able to reflect that back to them and being able

to say, yeah, you know what? That was really

hard. Yeah. You know what? Like, I want to walk

with you through that. Like that is. sharing

our faith in really meaningful ways. Yeah. Yeah.

What else does it maybe look like to sort of

share our faith with other people? Some of the

ways that the individual witness and share their

faith is through a combination of lifestyle.

Example, have personal testimony and direct father

invitation. Common method include act of kindness.

praying for others, sharing personal testimony

of God's impact in their lives, inviting the

individuals to church events, and engaging in

a respective conversation about the faith. Right,

yeah, yeah. So it is... Some of that acts of

kindness, that listening, like you just said,

it's, yeah, inviting folks to church, whether

it's Sunday morning church or to, you know, a

dinner that's happening or the Easter egg hunt

that we did yesterday. Just inviting people to

come along with you and sort of experience the

love of Jesus. Yeah. And then I think there is

a part of witnessing, a part of sharing our faith

that does involve sometimes saying words. And

that's the part I think that's really hard for

people. Um, but yeah, I think it is an important

part that like, you know, often I think when

we tell, when we talk about like sharing your

faith, we're like, oh yeah, just live by example,

like live, live the way that Jesus calls you

to live. And other people will notice that. But

then when other people notice that the Bible

instructs us, be ready to sort of give an answer.

right when people notice hey amava why are you

like this right to be able to say well actually

i'm like this because i believe this thing because

jesus has asked me to live this way right right

yeah and not doing it in a super pushy way but

just in a like this is where i'm coming from

kind of way yeah i mean we should be able to

you know like go to church do what we gotta do

and if people are curious genuinely curious and

not trying to be trolling not trying to you know

push buttons or whatever you know if they're

actually curious yeah invite them along you know

be like listen I go to 1115 service you're welcome

to come if you want I'm going either way sure

you know yeah and just sort of let them let them

come on their own you know I mean I think one

thing that that turns people away from religion

is when it's sort of like you're going because

you're you're kind of forced to you know i mean

yes as a as a kid you kind of have to be of course

but sure you know but when you're an adult i

mean that's when you you know you should be going

because you actually want to sure and so if people

are curious about the faith or feel like they

have a calling to go allow them to go with you

which can be tough because sometimes you look

at them and you're like you've done a lot of

damage already you know you've done you know

you whether it's mocking or whether it's not

believing or it's just you know how they act

or so and maybe they're not your favorite person

but then you're to deal with but at the end of

the day If you're helping to save a soul, that

that should count for something. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that that being willing to

bring someone along with you to church or to

whatever it is, is, I think, super important.

Like sometimes we'll just say, you know, we'll

give somebody this invitation, be like, hey,

go to church. Right. And that's fine. Maybe that

works. But actually, I think what works better

is to say, hey, come with me to church. Or like,

hey, I'll pick you up. Or like, hey, I'll meet

you at the door. We'll sit together through the

service. Or if you'd like to go, let me know.

Yeah, or whatever. It has to be willingness.

Because there was a song that said, I was glad

when they said unto me, let us go into the house

of the Lord. So it has to come from the heart,

not just... pushing or forcing the individual

to the church service. I mean, God gave us all

free will. So, I mean, this is free will in action,

you know, to go to church. Nobody should be forcing

you. You should just go because you want to,

because you're curious, because you're compelled.

Yeah. And that, you know, just like you have

the free will to say no every time to church

if you want to. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think

it's, as we said earlier, witnessing is relational.

And so before we use words, and words are very

appropriate at the right time, I think we have

to ensure that we have the person's confidence.

Sure. uh permission because jesus never violated

the integrity of anyone you always respect people's

integrity and that's i think what we need to

do as christians when i was a new christian i

didn't know i didn't know i didn't know that

and i didn't do it i i was i i went out and i

wanted to convert everybody overnight sure sure

somebody said you know what you should do with

new christians is lock them up for six months

They're too passionate. They're too passionate

about it. But once you have the relationship

and you have the person's permission, then you

can say, listen, this is what the Christian walk

has meant for me. This is what Jesus has meant

for me. And here's what it's done for me. And

offer it to them. And then it's their choice.

It's their free will, as you were saying. Yeah.

And I think what you were just saying there,

Hugh, about, you know, really sharing your perspective

and your story. I think that's a really important

part of witnessing that we also sometimes neglect

to sort of think about. We think like, oh, if

I'm going to share my faith with other people,

I need to like have all the Bible verses lined

up. I need to have all the right arguments. I

need to be able to answer all of the really hard

questions. But that's not. what a witness does.

Like if you think about a witness in a courtroom,

the witness's job is to say, here's what I saw.

Here's what I heard. Here's what my experience

of things has been. Right. You don't need to

rebuttal all of the arguments. You don't need

to have all the answers. No. And we think, I

think we need to be more comfortable with saying,

I don't know. Right. When someone comes at you

and they're like, ah, there's this thing that

I'm like really sort of on a, rant about or when

they're like oh here's a really hard question

that you just won't be able to answer for me

be like yeah no i don't know but i believe anyway

yeah right and here's what my experience of god

has been even if i don't know the answer to that

specific thing right like just giving ourselves

that freedom and love is the key you know once

you've had the the privilege and the honor of

of walking with someone in love And then they

will be more open. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So there's

this piece around sort of hard questions and

not knowing what to say. Are there any other

challenges or things that you think keep people

from wanting to share their faith with others?

Yeah, I would say the fact is that you don't

know how they're going to react to you being

Christian. especially if they're coming from

another faith you know there's a wide variety

of reactions from sure from anger or violence

to apathy to mocking to to people being like

oh that's great for you right you know right

yeah that's great for you but i'm never gonna

do that or whatever you know what i mean i'm

never gonna be christian you know or whatever

you know so you don't know how you're How are

you going to react? But, you know, and especially,

I mean, fortunately, most people, at least in

the Western world, are at least somewhat civilized

that you can, you know, we're not fortunately

at the point where Christianity is persecuted

like in other places. But, you know, it is sort

of it can be tough because, you know, because

you've got to be prepared that. People are not

going to like the fact that you're Christian.

Sure. Or even worse, they're just not going to

care. Sure. You know, they're not going to see

it as a great thing or, you know, it's just like,

oh, whatever, you know. Right. Yeah. So there's

often that fear of like, OK, how are other people

going to react to this? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's

a big barrier for sure. What about other things,

other challenges that sometimes come up? The

challenging part of. about witnessing is sharing

my faith or the gospel with others. Some individuals

will try to intimidate or start arguments. So

before you do that, you should pray within yourself

for the Holy Spirit to intervene and direct what

you're going to say. Then overcoming the challenges

often require shifting the focus from pressure

of converting someone to simply being a faithful

witness by relying on the Holy Spirit to guide

the conversation and focusing on loving others.

So that would be your main focus. You know, address

them in a proper way and, you know, present what

you're going to say to them in a simple format,

not too grammatic. Or maybe, you know, because

some people, they will say, lower your, the way

you talk, you know, because they are still baby

Christians, so we should approach them in a normal.

way yeah yeah yeah and i think that like one

of the things that you said was like yeah that

the pressure is not to convert people the pressure

is to do the part that you can do and if you're

one part of planting a seed if you're one part

of watering whatever sort of stage you are in

that right like i just think about like friends

that i had in high school specifically that like,

you know, would talk to them about faith things

from time to time, but like never really saw

anything come of it. And then it was years later

when I was like, oh, this person is like now

attending church and like following Jesus. And

I had nothing to do with the final moment where

that happened. right with where like the switch

was flipped but like maybe something that i said

along the way you contributed to the journey

in some way yeah yeah i think one of the challenges

too is to to understand from our own journey

how delicate we are and how delicate everyone

is. Everyone really needs to be affirmed. Someone

said to me one time, speak ill of no one, but

speak the good you know about everyone. So when

you're sitting in front of a person, you say,

well, what is it in their life that they need

to be affirmed on? Because we all need it. And

there's a beautiful book and video, actually,

of Desmond Tutu and his relationship with the

Dalai Lama. Two different fates, but a beautiful

love coming together. And, you know, the real

key to... various faiths, various religions,

is to really deeply listen to each other and

learn from each other and affirm what is good

in each tradition. Because there are some good

things in every tradition. We have the truth

as Christians, but maybe not a monopoly on it.

And so sometimes that's a challenge because we

know... we you know in our mind you know we're

going to convert everybody everybody should be

a christian by tomorrow but but but no you know

jesus walked with people we're called we're called

to walk but more more important i think we're

called to to a deep love and a deep listening

and i think that's one of the things that really

uh that that really got me to um to want to be

christian is the fact that You know, like coming

from Islam, the idea is that everyone's supposed

to be Muslim or, you know, right. With Christianity,

we just want the good word to be spread. That's

it. That's it. You know, we just want the good

word to be spread and heard. And then you do

what you do. You do whatever you want. You know,

if you want to read the Bible, go to church,

follow Christ. Amen. You know, but if you choose.

But if you hear the good news and you still deny

Christ, at least, you know, well, that's, that's

your choice. You know, you make that choice,

you know, and you know, it's, you know, what

happens in the, in the, after you die is determined

by what you do in this life. So if you choose

to deny in this life after hearing the good word,

well, then, you know, you made that choice, but

if you choose to follow Christ, You know, especially

if you're coming from a different faith and you

say, no, Jesus is the truth, the way and the

life. And I believe in him, you know, then, you

know, that that's the power of free will. And

that's the power of the good word, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Our job is really just to be faithful

to Christ. And it takes time. Sure. It's a process.

And realizing that, you know, God is beyond,

it's beyond time. So he's not too concerned about

time. He has all the time in the world. We're

concerned about time. You know, C .S. Lewis used

to say I was the greatest skeptic in all of England.

So it took him time and it was a process for

him to come to Jesus. And for him it was more

of an intellectual process. And for some people

it's an emotional process. Or some people it's

a spiritual process. But sometimes It takes the

intellectual, emotional, spiritual work. And

that takes time. Yeah. So we've talked about

what makes it hard to witness or to share our

faith with other people. But then on the flip

side, are there things that make it joyful or

that make it feel really meaningful? Like, why

do we do this, even though it's hard? I think

part of it is, Part of the joy is just seeing

how there's many ways that people can come to

Christ. It's not just one way, you know. For

some, it's reading a verse in the Bible that

confirms what they've believed all along. For

others, it's getting to a low point and a dark

point in their life. For others, you know, their

journey is, well, my parents are Christian. My

grandparents are Christian. I lived in a Christian

household. That's the only way. And praise them

for that, you know? So it really, we all have

our different story. We all have a different

reason why, like how we came to Christ. So it's

nice to know because it's, at least for me, I

find it easy, especially with most of my family

not being Christian. It's easy to give up hope.

Sure. It's easy to be like, you know what, they're

all lost causes, right? But then again, I was

a lost cause until 36 when I came to Christ.

So, you know. Everybody has their own journey

and maybe for most of them, they will never turn

to Christ. Sure. But you know what? It's again,

it's it's everybody's choice. And, you know,

you just have to, you know, you just have to

understand that, you know, if people come to

Christ, it may not be, you know, at the time

you think it is. And you just have to now that

you're Christian, you have to focus on making

sure that. you're still on the right path and

that you're still following Christ. And our responsibility

is to walk with them in love and then to share

the words, if appropriate. But it's not our responsibility

to pull them in. That's the Holy Spirit's responsibility.

I love what Jimmy Carter used to say. There are

two loves in the world, one for God and one for

the person. happening to stand that happens to

be standing in front of you and i i really like

that you know so our responsibility is to love

it's not to convert yeah that's jesus's responsibility

that's god's responsibility yeah yeah yeah and

i think the piece that you were saying a novel

about like all of these different stories i think

the joy for me in that is that like as I hear

different people's stories and different ways

that they have come to understand God, different

ways they've come to experience God, like I actually

get to learn more about who God is as well and

how God works in the world, right? Like God works

through our family history. God works through

scripture. God works through intellect. God works

through creation. Like all of these things are

ways that people come to know and experience

the love of Christ. And it's so cool to get to

like see that. And, like, hear that from people,

I think. Yeah. Yeah. The joy for me is just sharing

with people my journey, you know. Yeah. The grace

of God in my life, you know. Yeah. I could have

gone through so many ways, you know. I remember

at one point in my career, early in my career,

I was the chief psychiatric social worker in

the Kingston Penitentiary. Okay. And I remember.

interviewing an inmate one time, and he said

to me, you know, Hugh, given different circumstances,

you could be behind bars and I could be where

you are. Absolutely. And he was absolutely right.

And for the grace of God, why? And I could have

been there. Sure. And if I had been there, I'm

sure that God would have met me there. Sure.

As I experienced in my time there, that where

God was very present there. Yeah. But, yeah,

so the joy for me is to say, oh, my gosh, look

at me. I'm a broken human being. And God has

poured his grace on me throughout my life. And

I can give examples of that. And I just share

that with people. And that's joyful. Yeah. For

sure. The joyful part of witnessing is that it

makes me feel good within me because it's a privilege

to witness to other people. And it's a great

rewarding for the kingdom of God, bringing the

vulnerable individual to Christ. During my routine

rounds at the hospital doing spiritual care,

most patients, they call me sunshine, you know,

because they said I bring something good to them,

you know. Not merely talking about the Bible,

but the way I approach the individuals, you know,

because some of the patients, they don't have

family to visit them. And, you know, They are

just lying there, so they need somebody to uplift

them. So I always do the best I can to actively

listen to their story, you know. Because a lot

of things are happening around the world that

a lot of stress contributes to a lot of sicknesses

that people encounter in life. I thank God for

my life to be part of the instrument that God

is using for people, you know, to encourage and

uplift them. Yeah. Yeah. So just like it. It's

encouraging to us as we get to encourage other

people and walk with them. Yeah, for sure. So

I think I want us to end on a sort of practical,

like, what do we do with all of this? What are

some tips? What's some encouragement that we

might offer to people who are feeling like, you

know what? That sounds okay. That still sounds

scary, though. Like, what do I do with this?

So I think the first thing that comes to mind

for me is we talked about in the challenges how

we don't know how other people are going to react.

And sometimes it might be with aggression or

with indifference or whatever. And I think that

that's definitely true. I think we need to be

careful not to like over inflate that, though.

Like, I think we need to be able to say, yeah,

some people will react that way. But. In my experience,

and maybe my experience is just particular, but

like in my experience, most people aren't aggressive

about it. Right. They're maybe not enthusiastic

about it. They're not like, oh, wow, tell me

more. But they're not going to be like grumpy

about it. Yeah. And I think especially. if we

start with relationship, like you was talking

about, right? Like if, if we talk about faith

in the context of building trust and of sharing

love, if someone knows that we have their best

interest in mind, rather than random stranger

on the street, random stranger on the street

might be grumpy about it because we just interrupted

whatever they were doing. But if we're doing

this from a context of relationship and love,

then like, I think most people. are willing to

hear us out even if they don't change their mind

about it they're willing to sort of let us share

so i think that relationship is really important

and having some level of optimism i think we

have to earn the right to do this yeah and we

do that through building a relationship with

them yeah yeah for sure so prayer is the key

you know you pray and ask holy spirit to intervene

and uh in what you're going to say and you have

to be humble you know be like christ the way

he was kind and compassionate towards others

and um Not to be judgmental, you know. Sure,

sure. And you set boundaries, you know. There

is some rules that you have to follow. So don't

be too pushy, pushy. Yeah. Yeah, it goes back

to, again, what Hugh had said earlier about respecting

each person's integrity, respecting their free

will, not... driving the argument too hard. And

yeah, I think prayer is a super important place

to start praying for yourself, that God would

give you the words, God would give you that sense

of peace and confidence, but also praying for

the other person. We're all, you know, every

human being is searching, whether they are really

fully recognizing that or not. You know what

Pascal used to say, you know, In every human

being, there's a God -shaped vacuum. And so everybody

has a God -shaped vacuum. And our responsibility

is to try to fill that vacuum. where they're

at as human beings. We may just be pouring a

cup and the other person will pour another cup

and somebody might pour a gallon. But that rod

-shaped vacuum will be filled, if not by us,

by someone else. We're part of the process. For

sure, for sure. Yeah, what would you add, Amavo?

Any practical advice or encouragement? Yeah,

I would say one, Be unapologetically Christian.

Stand by your beliefs. Stand by what you, you

know, stand by the word. And I think what the

thing is to understand is it's okay if people

don't accept that you're Christian. It's okay

if people don't accept Christ. It's okay if they

don't have a good reaction, you know. At the

end of the day, God is always with us. Jesus

is always with us. And always remember, we always

have our community. Yeah. We always have, you

know, even if you're the only Christian in the

family. Yeah. It's like, you know, go to your

life group. Go to church on Sunday. Meet up with

fellow Christians. Keep each other in, you know,

like help each other and support each other.

Because even if your blood family don't have

your back or they're not following Jesus, you

know, we all have brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yeah. Yeah. So lean on each other. Know that

as we're sharing our faith, even if we're alone

in that moment, we're not doing it alone. Right.

We have people who have our back. We have that

seed that we're planting that someone else will

water. Yes. Right. Yeah. And everyone is created.

Everybody's created in God's image. So whether

they believe what you believe, they're still

created in God's image. So our responsibility

is to respond to the God in them. Yeah. I think

you had a Bible verse you wanted to end this

with. I just want to end with Acts 1 .8, which

says, But you will receive power when the Holy

Spirit comes on you. And you will be my witness

in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria and to

the ends of the earth. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

So that, that remember the reminder that it comes

with God's power, that we don't do this work

on our own. And that all of these spiritual practices

that we've been talking about for the past number

of weeks. Feed us in such a way that allow us

to go out and share our faith with other people.

Right. Like if you're not in prayer and scripture

and community, and if you're not intentionally

spending time with God, you're not going to be

a good witness. Right. And so building our life

first. Founded in Christ, founded in these, all

of these practices so that we can go out and

share the good news of Christ with other people.

Yeah. So thank you so much, folks. And thank

you for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity

Talks. I pray that you find your foundation in

Christ, that you are able to find ways to then

share that faith with the people who are around

you, whether that is in your words or your actions

or just in simple acts of light and love. And

we will see you again next week.