How Does the Holy Spirit Really Work? | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I am joined

here by two Trinity parishioners, and we're going

to chat a little bit more about the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, and the role that the Holy Spirit plays

in our faith and in our life. And yeah, kind

of. try to demystify this mysterious being, I

think, a little bit. So thank you so much for

joining me, folks. Thank you. Do you want to

just go ahead and do some introductions first?

Do you want to start us off here? Sure. My name

is James Chung. I've been attending Trinity since

1998. I'm married with two children. My wife

is Anne -Marie, and the children are Karen and

Kevin. And yeah. That sounds great. Thank you.

And what about you? Hi, I'm Rick. Rick Bradshaw.

I've been here since 2004. Most famous for being

Ali's husband. Okay. It's a good, important role.

Good. So first I want to start us off with a

little bit of word association. So when you hear

the word Holy Spirit, what's the first word that

sort of pops into your brain? Peace. Peace. Okay.

I don't know why. Okay. That's lovely. I love

that for you. What about for you, James? For

me, it's presence. It's the kind of presence

that changes people inside out. That once you

start thinking about it, you can't stop. that

basically comforts you it helps you sure when

when you ask for it sure yeah yeah yeah that's

so cool i think both of those answers are coming

from like deep experiences with the holy spirit

i think right because if i was to sort of ask

the general public when i say holy spirit what

comes to mind i think it would be like one of

the first things that came to mind for me is

like Yeah. Because people talk about like the

Holy ghost and they're like, there's, I remember

as a teenager, someone like talking about the

Holy spirit as a Holy ghost and then being like,

well, but it's a friendly ghost. It's not like

a scary, you know, like blue kind of ghost. But

yeah, I don't know. I think there's just lots

of different ideas about what the Holy spirit

is and people don't really sort of know what

to do with the spirit. I think. Yeah. One, one

other word that. actually came to mind when we

were talking about it is something that i learned

i guess a trinity yeah um the word stool and

and what i mean by that is i was explaining the

holy spirit is it's like if the trinity is like

a free legged stool okay so we all know god the

father god the son yeah but we always miss the

holy holy spirit sure and without that third

leg the stool won't stand sure so that to me

it's always like a explains to me what the holy

spirit is It's God. Sure. The Trinity is without

the third leg. Yeah. It doesn't explain it. So

that to me was always something that I appreciated

learning from, you know, it's not as mysterious

as, you know, what is it? You know, we, we know

God is father. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You like, you

need all the bits. Right. Right. Yeah, so then,

as you sort of said, sometimes people don't learn

about the Holy Spirit or they neglect to think

about the Holy Spirit. So in your lives, when

do you think you sort of first really learned

about the Holy Spirit? And how did that happen

in your life? Do you want to start us off? Yeah,

I mean, it's interesting you mentioned the Holy

Ghost, right? I remember that as a child. That's

just weird, right? I don't think it's a helpful...

very helpful term actually i don't know where

it came from but i'm not dissing any religion

any branch of christianity but it's um so yeah

growing up i think i did the alpha holy spirit

weekend yesterday and uh they talk about the

guy who starts off he says yeah i remember with

prayers at school the father son the holy ghost

or the holy spirit right but he said we never

ever talked about it apart from that so some

some parts of christianity don't really focus

on it whereas you've got pentecostals the people

that really get it right and the whole focus

so when did i so yeah so fast forward i i you

know i came to jesus when i came to trinity um

so it was talked about um but i yeah i guess

probably like equivalent of an alpha course like

we did uh christianity 101 i think okay yeah

that's when they start to talk about how you

can have a personal relationship with sure with

Jesus with God um through the Holy Spirit and

then I was like oh because I remember Pentecost

it was Pentecost Sunday right sure but that's

the kind of the the tongs of fire just remember

from Sunday school but that's not really that

personal relationship and I think that's that's

a big change in your when you're thinking and

you're when you actually experience uh god through

the holy spirit then you're like oh it's not

it's just a way it's a way of explaining how

he connects with us i guess sure yeah yeah yeah

yeah so it's that i think interesting then for

you that like it sort of came around the same

time as like experiencing the rest of christianity

in some sense right that it was it was a really

sort of integrated model and i think that's super

helpful What about for you, James? For me, it's

kind of different. I first learned about the

Holy Spirit when reading the Bible about Pentecost.

And the image that always stayed in my head at

the time was the flame over people's head. That

to me was the Holy Spirit. Very dramatic and

scary. So that's the first part when I learned

about the Holy Spirit. And when I first, when

I felt, I believe that I received the Holy Spirit

was at my confirmation. So I was around 13 and

the laying of the hands of the bishop to me that

was like as a symbol. So it was me accepting

Jesus from my godparents and parents who baptized

me. So it was an intention. to accept Jesus.

And I felt the symbolism, I guess, of the sacrament

of confirmation was the laying of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know whether it's true or false, but

that's what I learned. Sure. So that was my first.

And the first time I really experienced it was

at a youth retreat where I guess I saw the Holy

Spirit acting up in other people. Like they were

filled with emotions. I guess in some ways now

it's more of a charismatic way of feeling the

Holy Spirit. But I remember praying to God, how

come I never felt that? I see all these people

feeling it, but is there something wrong with

me? So it was kind of three ways. And basically,

after a while, I learned that really God is not

that far. God is in us. And that's through the

Holy Spirit. I kind of accept it. I don't have

to feel the same. my transformation was a little

bit slow and different. Sure, sure. But yeah.

So the three first times were the Holy Spirit,

but that's how it was. Yeah, I think that like

there is sometimes that feeling like maybe we're

missing something if we're not having a really

dramatic experience or a really emotional experience.

And like those are really real. Like people feel

that and that happens, but that's not how the

Holy Spirit works in every single person, right?

Like we don't need to have these, These really

dramatic moments. Not to say that those are bad.

No. At all. They're good. They're very good.

Yeah. But yeah, to sort of say the Holy Spirit

works in us in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, for

sure. Okay. So how would you say that the Holy

Spirit has sort of been part of your life? Like,

what does it look like? Are there moments or

stories where you can say, ah, this was the Holy

Spirit sort of working in me? Yeah. To move on

from what? James said, I've done the same thing.

I've done the, again, mentioned the Alpha Holy

Spirit weekend, but that's when you see it in

other people. Yeah. And you experience it together,

actually, as well, in those situations. But that's

a dramatic, very obvious sign. Yeah. But then,

now I look back and realize that times, the nudges,

the things, why did I... you know god is sort

of nudging you more gently and you realize afterwards

oh actually there's the holy spirit was guiding

me but i actually didn't realize it sure right

so um that's that's fascinating to me i start

look back okay yeah i just didn't know it so

if you feel it in a dramatic way and then you

realize oh and then so you start to um look out

for that sure aware of it and you think it's

like it's some people call it conscience as well

i don't know i don't know the answer but yeah

sure it's it's more than conscience i think it's

okay uh you know and you have to learn to be

open to it yep and to recognize it when it's

happening sure sure easy to say but not always

yes not always easy to do for sure for sure yeah

and then like i think the point that you raised

there but like being able to see it retrospectively

is like really helpful because yeah i think sometimes

we just don't know in the moment we're just doing

the thing that feels right to do or the thing

that feels like we should do for some reason

um But yeah, to be able to look back on it and

say, oh, God was actually in that, right, is

really valuable. And yeah, a skill that we have

to hone, I think. Yeah, I think that's the key

is to recognize it and look out for it and be

aware of it. And then you feel it more. You really

get God can talk to you. You've got to test it.

You've got to be careful. Is it my voice or is

it God's voice? You've got to test these things.

It's not simple. It was easy. There won't be

much point, I guess. We have free will. We've

got bad free will and good free will. For sure.

What would you add to that, James? I think it's

very similar to what Rick just said. Holy Spirit

is part of everyday life so to me the way I would

think is I have to think of it more as something

I intentionally want like asking and receiving

like yeah so if I if I feel like anxious or anything

I would ask and I would I would say automatically,

but I would feel at peace. And if I get angry

or anything, I would say, just help me. So I

kind of, in that way, in everyday life, I try

to get the Holy Spirit as a helper. Whenever

I feel there's a need for it, and like you say,

it's hard to know whether it's my decision or

whether it's God's will wanting me to do it.

But I feel that when you're, When your nudge

is the word I normally use to go help somebody,

do it. Don't even question because it's something

good. It must be coming from God, right? And

when I'm tempted, I know it's something bad because,

again, to me, it's the Holy Spirit telling me,

well, think about it. Why are you so anxious

about this thing? Maybe it's not something you

should be doing, right? It's just this kind of

nudge. It's not. But you just feel, I guess,

the way to approach it is ask. Sure, sure. Yeah,

I think that that's such an important piece,

right? That the Holy Spirit, we can ask God and

God will give us the Holy Spirit, right? Scripture

promises us that, right? And it's not something...

we ask for one time and then we're set for life,

right? Like, yes, we can receive the Holy Spirit

really powerfully in one particular moment. But

every day you need to go back and say, God, lead

me through this thing. Spirit, like, be present

here. Speak to me. Yeah. It's that continually

going back to prayer and asking again and again.

Yeah, for sure. So if you then think about, you

know, we sort of said, like, that the holy spirit

we can sometimes think of it like our conscience

right and and but it it is a bit different i

think so there were things that you guys would

say like would help people sort of distinguish

between those two things yeah yeah i think we

talked about testing yeah testing so what does

that testing look like yeah so i i mean there's

a number of ways but i think it's like one way

is is this um you know like in in line with what

we think is it is it good right i mean we know

what's good and we know what's bad right sure

sometimes but you know not always but you know

okay so is it good is it um you know is it in

line with like you know read the bible we know

scripture we know what god's plan is sure for

the world you can pretty much often Is this really

part of God's plan or not? Maybe you don't know,

but there's that. Sure. Yeah, and is it building

someone up or is it something that builds people

up? Is it something that is helpful as opposed

to selfish, I guess? Sure. It's not easy. It's

not always clear -cut. Yeah, what would you add

to that? I would say the same thing. Normally,

when I try to think of whether it's the Holy

Spirit who's guiding me or not, I try to memorize

the spirit, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So

I would say, does it bring joy? Does it bring

peace? Is it self -control? Does it nudge me

to serve others? That's kind of how I see the

work, I guess, in my life, so to speak. You're

feeling anxious and you're really desperate and

you pray to God and say, I'm surrendering this

to you. And then you feel that peace. You know

where it's coming from, right? And similarly,

when I'm nudged to see somebody and help and

I'm willing to listen and take the time and try

to help. Again, to me, it's the works. It's the

result of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't call it

the works. To me, when I read the fruit of the

Holy Spirit, it's basically the result of Him

working in us. Sure. And that's what it can bring

so much. Yeah, the other thing I should have

said is also you can ask other people. That's

the bit I missed. You've got people you trust

in your life. faithful christians and yeah run

it by them that's right yeah yeah yeah yeah so

i think like what this makes me think about is

therefore we don't follow the holy spirit like

in isolation right it's not just like ah this

spirit this sense of god in me is the only thing

that guides me no we are led in community we're

led through scripture through the example of

jesus right like all of these things come together

to help us understand how the holy spirit works

in our lives yeah Yeah. And I think the other

thing, yeah, I would also sort of highlight the

fruit of the spirit as like a way to think about

that. Right. Because Jesus says in the gospels,

you know, there's going to be all kinds of false

teachers who come up. And how will you know what

is true and what is not? You will know them by

their fruit. Right. Right. And then Paul gives

us later in Galatians, this list of love, joy.

Peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

gentleness, self -control. I think that's all.

You got it. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, so

if those are the things that are the result of

our works or the result of whatever this decision

is that we're making, right? We ask, okay, is

this decision going to be one full of love, full

of kindness and gentleness and faithfulness?

There's a pretty good chance that that's God.

That's the Spirit leading you, right? Yeah. What

about in terms of, you know, like spiritual gifts

or in terms of, you know, like how we experience

a conviction or comfort? Like how would you say

you know when you're experiencing the work of

the Holy Spirit in sort of those ways? Or like

how do those pieces relate, do you think? Yeah,

I guess in many ways it's related. For me, for

example, it's like if I feel kind of a peace

that I can't explain. I know I shouldn't be that

relaxed about it, but certainly I do, right?

Or if I'm feeling... That I need to do something

about a certain situation and helping other people.

Again, I go back to, I guess, what Jesus told

us we are supposed to do is love God, love others,

and then, you know, come back with the Holy Spirit

to fill us every day, right? Sure. When you think

about those things that's happening in everyday

life, sometimes I would even feel like I'm watching

a sunset from a beautiful beach. I said, that's

God at work. I mean, who can create that, right?

So it's little things, but also big things. It's

like, you know, on an everyday basis. And what

I always say is like... trying to have an attitude

of gratitude. If you think of the things that

God is doing in your life that's good, that to

me is basically, it's the Holy Spirit just telling

you these are the good things that can happen.

I often thought about the gifts of the spirit.

And, you know, in the Bible and everywhere else,

the Holy Spirit. I don't have much of that. So

how do I fit in? But when I think and try to

kind of reflect on it, I think there's a certain

kind of wisdom and counsel that I'm comfortable

with. Like people come to me for a lot of advice.

And I say, why is that? Ever since I was from

university college, right? People used to call

me a nickname like Papa, which is Father. Because

they like the advice from me. I've never learned

to do that. To me, it's something else. And when

I reflect back after learning about the Holy

Spirit more, I say, it must be. So these are

the kind of things that to me shows that the

Holy Spirit does work in life. Often, And how

do you say it? When I feel like I'm tempted,

there's weaknesses. To me, if I don't do it again,

it's the Holy Spirit. Because I do pray about

it. I feel I need to get that help. And just

realizing that it is a weakness and something

that I need to work on is the conviction to me

from the Holy Spirit that tells me, well... You

should do something about it or not do something

about it, right? Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So these

are the kind of things that, again, it's what

the intention, I guess, is important. Yeah, so

the Holy Spirit both, like, gives you these good

gifts, these abilities to do things, and guards

you from the things that you shouldn't be doing.

Right, right. And this is, yeah, these different

sort of roles are both part of what's happening.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What would you sort of add

to that? Yeah, no, I'd like that. It has started

off with saying peace, right? So you're at peace,

you know, that feeling that it's probably okay.

Yep. But equally the absence of peace, agitation.

Yep. You're kind of, you just know, right? You're

not as kind of uncomfortable. Yep. You know,

man, shouldn't be doing this, right? Sure. And

as you said, then you just pray on it. and so

the first step is always acknowledge right you've

got to acknowledge you okay god i shouldn't be

doing this and then help me yeah please help

me yeah and he does right and that's that's the

spirit comes alongside to help you sure um and

you know pokes you why am i so uncomfortable

yeah because you don't be doing it right you

know what this is you need to do something else

yeah i like that yeah and okay so then i also

think though like And we're talking about, you

know, sometimes experiencing the Holy Spirit

is uncomfortable, like when we're being convicted,

when we're being told, you know, like maybe you

shouldn't be doing that thing. But I also wonder

if sometimes the things that the Holy Spirit

asks us to do positively, like is also uncomfortable

sometimes, right? Like it's not always super

happy. It doesn't always feel like the most loving,

joyful thing, right? So like, yeah, how do we...

know or how do we experience the Holy Spirit

in those challenging times as well, do you think?

What helps us get through that? To me, it's praying

and talking to God. When things like that happen

to me, I always say, God, are you sure you want

me to do this? I'm not sure I'm equipped to do

this, right? Are you sure? you know what i just

do it and then if it works out i know it's from

you if it doesn't work out so that's how i kind

of got get around it i said if i really feel

i need to do something and i feel it's coming

from the god i don't necessarily think of the

holy spirit but it is him working in us right

yeah yeah so then i would do it and then from

the result of it and i would say okay that was

what you wanted me to do, and I now know why,

even though I wasn't comfortable, like you say.

There are many things. I'm still, to me, with

the Holy Spirit, I'm still worried that I'm not

doing as much of the commission, of bringing

other people to Jesus. I find it hard. And when

I feel it's happening, I pray to God, give me

something to talk about. Sure. I don't know that

person. On the other hand, I have like my daughter

and my son -in -law, they will go out and talk

to anybody. Sure. They're just traveling now

and they're just saying how they talk to somebody,

the Uber driver, and they were now praying, let's

pray for, hopefully he can. Yeah. But this is

the kind of, I would love, but I know it's not

me. It's like my personal character, I guess.

But I know it's something that I'm required to

do because God did say, love God, love others,

but bring others to me, make disciples. And that's

the part I feel I'm still weak. Sure. And I still

need lots of prayers for that. Sure. Yeah. There's

all. sorts of areas where we all need to grow

right yeah and i think the spirit works with

our different personalities right so like yeah

i'm also probably not the person who's going

to pray with her uber driver that's just not

my personality but in the like sort of as you

were saying you know people would come to you

for advice and come to you for support right

and that is also a way of bringing people to

jesus so just yeah working with these different

sort of ways yeah yeah Yeah, there's a previous

pastor at this church said that if you want God

to show up, the Holy Spirit to show up in your

life, put yourself in a position where he has

to. I've done that a couple of times. I don't

know what I want to do. I don't know what to

do. I don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah. Okay,

I remember those words. I go and do it, and he's

going to be there for you, right? Sure. And it's

happened to me a couple of times where I just

didn't know what to do. Yeah. couple of times,

people were really sick. You don't know what

to say, what to do. Sure. But go and see them.

Go and read the Bible. Yep. Yeah. Pray with them.

Yep. And I said, Lord, I don't know what to do.

Don't worry. Yeah. Go. Yeah. And he shows up.

Yeah. In those situations, you put yourself where

you have no... You have no option. I don't know

what to do. God, you have to show up here. Because

I'm hopeless. I need you. Yeah. Yeah. That takes

so much faith. A lot of courage. I've done it

all the time. I've done it a few times. Sure.

Sure. But yeah. Yeah. And I think the other piece

when I think about, you know, dealing with the

challenging bits is like making sure that we

have a supportive community around us. Right.

That if God is calling me to do something that

feels really hard to do, chances are God is not

calling me to do that in isolation. Right. Right.

Or at least without the support and affirmation

of other people. Right. If I'm feeling like so,

for example, right. Like I've been thinking about,

you know, discerning this this call to ministry.

Does God want me to sort of pursue this this

path? Right. And it feels really hard and scary

to me. But there have been people all along the

way who have said, Kyla, like we're with you

in this. We see this in you and like all of these

things. Right. So. It's those people that help

me believe that this is what the Holy Spirit

is calling me to do, even though it's a hard

thing. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So we've talked a lot

about sort of our experiences of the Holy Spirit

and what that sort of looked like. How would

you say, like, are there specific resources or

specific practices that have really helped you

to grow in your understanding of the Holy Spirit?

Maybe things that other people might want to

sort of try as well to get a little bit more

meat, a little bit more understanding. To me,

it's basically intentionally spending time with

God. And that's through many things. It's reading

the Bible, doing prayers as a routine every day.

recognizing God's work in your everyday life,

trying to look for opportunities to serve others,

how you spend your time or money. Like it's intentionally

doing things that you feel God wants you to do

as part of his plan. Sure. And it always goes

back to what did Jesus call us to do? Yeah. Love

God, love others, and bring others to Him. Right.

And make disciples. So if you do any of those

things, and you do it every day, I feel the Holy

Spirit will help us, I hope, bring us closer

to God and to God's will. And, oh, there's one

thing I did mention. Yeah. Intentionally surrendering

our will to God to let Him do. His work is something

I do almost every day because I feel like I want

to do things, but I say, I will do them if God

aligns, will aligns with mine, right? And that's

the part which, as Rick mentioned, is the hard

thing to do. Which one is my wants and which

one is actually God's will, right? Both looks

very interesting. That's why I want them. So

doing that every day is, I think, that's when

the Holy Spirit really helps us. Right. Because

we're intentionally wanting His help. And the

way I explain this is God is never far from us.

He's in us, right? So He's in us through the

Holy Spirit. And He wants... to show others Jesus

through us. So through our actions, through our

thoughts. So if you choose kindness over anger,

that's one way. And you want other people to

see it because they can see those actions. And

if they know who is helping you, then... Hopefully

that will bring them to ask the question. Sure.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's a lot of prayer, right? And

a lot of like honesty with God too, right? Communicating.

And just sort of saying, yeah, here's where we're

at. Here's what I'm feeling right now and help

me God to walk through this. Yeah. Yeah. What

would you sort of add? Yeah, I think that's great.

And listening, right? Yes. Yeah, listening. I,

you know, often go to prayer, to go up with a

shopping list of prayer. Sure, sure, sure, sure.

And like, finished that, I finished, right? I'm

not listening. I'm just carrying like this list

of things. I'm just like, why? Just be, be with,

it's not like a, if you want a friendship with

someone, a relationship, you don't just ask them.

all these things you actually listen right yeah

so that's one but i think for me also it's with

other people right and and the most times i felt

the holy spirit is like in worship and when we're

all together yeah um i went to big like uh christian

conference in the uk and man everyone was worshiping

and it was just you could palpably feel the holy

spirit yeah so i think doing doing it together

right and i i would say people in their life

groups challenge you guys um guys and girls go

when you're in a small group say let's let's

ask the holy spirit to come let's actually spend

time in prayer together and let's ask the holy

spirit to come on us and and be with us okay

because we that's not very anglican right it's

not sure sure pentecostal guys people are you

know all over that right yeah so we don't have

to go that far but like Let's, I think we did

one time we did like a, we read the same thing

over and over. I can't really call that. Oh,

like the Lectio kind of? We're all reading the

same words together. Come Holy Spirit, come Holy

Spirit, bless me Father. And just kind of all

saying it together. Sounds a bit weird and culty,

but it's not. I promise you it's not. Sure, sure.

We were all sitting together and we did this

for quite a long period of time. Sure. Afterwards,

we were all just like, wow. We all felt like,

ah, I feel at peace. I felt the Spirit come.

It came with us. We're sitting there together.

I would say that's a challenge for the life groups.

Try and do that. Ask the Holy Spirit. Yeah, so

I think for folks who are wanting more of the

Holy Spirit in their life, getting yourself in

a community of Christians, people who want to

journey that journey with you. Um, yeah. And

spending time in prayer, listening in prayer,

which is really, I think, awkward sometimes,

especially silence. It's that space. Um, yeah.

Spending time in scripture, figuring out, you

know, that God, God speaks through scripture.

God speaks through people. God speaks in lots

of different ways, but when you're reading scripture,

God has given it to us as, as this conduit of

God's word. Right. And so. That's definitely

a way that God leads us. Yeah, and then there

are all kinds of other resources if people want

to sort of read things about the Holy Spirit

and understand. Yeah, I'd really sort of encourage

folks to ask questions. The Trinity, the Spirit,

is a really confusing concept. It is. But God

can handle all of our questions. Thank you so

much, folks, for this really, I think, encouraging

conversation. Thank you. And thank you for joining

in on this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether

you feel like you've had experiences with the

Holy Spirit or not, I pray that you have been

able to find some wisdom here. You've been able

to find some inspiration to, yeah, just ask God

for more of the Spirit's love and life in you.

And we will see you again next week.