Navigating Change with 3 World Vision CEOs | Trinity Talks Podcast

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm really

excited because I have three very special guests

with me today who also all have a connection

to World Vision Canada. And actually, Trinity

Church has been working with World Vision Canada

in lots of different ways since about the 1980s.

And in that time, especially in the last few

years, we've had this really special connection

with Honduras. and with the community of Nueva

Frontera, where Trinity has been part of the

Chosen program. And so many families and children

have been sponsored and been impacted by that

work. But yeah, we also have these three wonderful

folks and a very special sort of personal connection

to Trinity as both Dave Toyson and Michael Messenger

call Trinity their church home. So I'm so excited

to be joined by you folks and by Allison, the

current president and CEO of World Vision Canada.

So thank you so much for joining me, folks. Great

to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, so maybe.

We'll just do some really brief introductions.

First, you can just say your name, sort of what

your experience with World Vision has been. So

maybe we'll start here. Yeah, thanks. I'm Michael

Messinger, and my wife Yvonne and I call Trinity

home. So we have been here for a number of years,

and we live in Oakville. Okay. at World Vision

in one role or another for 30 years, including

most recently a CEO about a year ago. So I'm

about to pass it over to Allison as my successor.

Awesome. Yeah. Amazing. Well, I'm Allison Alley.

It's a joy to be with you today. My husband,

Tommy, and I live in St. Catharines, Ontario

with our two teenage daughters. And God called

me to serve as the CEO of World Vision Canada

just over a year ago. So it's been the privilege

of my life to follow after Michael. And maybe

I won't say your name. You can bring your own

introduction. So thanks for having me. Yeah,

no, thank you for being here. Yeah, go ahead,

Dave. Well, let's see. I started. With World

Vision in the US in 1973. Okay. And that's all

I've done my whole life. Okay. Wow. I've been

in Australia, US, and then here in Canada. And

then here in Canada. Okay. And what years were

you CEO in Canada? Let's see. I started in 1980.

81, I think. Okay. Something like that. Something

like that. And CEO in the 90s. CEO through the

90s. Okay. Awesome. Cool. Yeah. So I think it's

really cool to have all of this sort of history

building on each other. This is the first time,

by the way, we're having a conversation together.

Yeah. Very cool. Thanks for bringing us together.

I mean, we've talked together. Sure. Yeah, that's

awesome. Yeah. So maybe, Allison, as I sort of

said, Trinity's really had this partnership with

Honduras, with Nueva Frontera specifically. Can

you just tell us, you know, from from your sort

of point of view, like what has been the impact

of that partnership? You know, it's interesting.

I think of the video that we saw this morning

or you'll see next if you haven't tuned in with

Pastor Rob and Tony, right, who works for World

Vision Honduras and the depth of relationship

and friendship and shared experience that was

just representative of what happens when you

bring two communities together who are praying

for one another and encouraging one another and,

you know, playing one. significant part in fueling

the vision that this community has right for

their own children and their own families. And

so the impact, I would say, has been far reaching.

In ways that are beyond our imagine. Sure. And

will be enduring far beyond, you know, the partnership

as we just heard or you'll hear later, right?

Comes to a close. So it's the relationship. It's

the emotional impact of knowing that people care

for you. They're praying for you. They're cheering

you on. And practically on the ground, the life

-saving and life -transforming impact is remarkable.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think like both of those

pieces are really sort of important, right? That

it's, it is. a very practical partnership, but

it is that emotional, spiritual, relational partnership

too, I think is what makes it so powerful. Yeah.

So yeah, you said you're sitting down here with

these two leaders who've been sort of part of

World Vision in the past and yeah, leading through

a lot of changes and now you coming into this

role. What would you say are some of the biggest

challenges for you in sort of leading an organization

like World Vision today? you often preach about

something that you need, right? And so certainly

today when I talked about just like everything

happening everywhere all the time and the sense

of overwhelm, and yet what does God call us to,

right? The one, the next step. So for me, really

practically in any given moment, there is a lot

to consider, a lot to do. There's urgency, lots

of different stakeholders. We work in over a

hundred countries, right? And yet, you know,

my role and the challenges is to be present in

the one moment, to be present in the one meeting,

right? To be here and nowhere else right now.

And to not just be used by God, but to be attentive

to what He would have for me in those everyday

moments. So it sounds maybe... high level, but

it really is one of the more challenging things

and where God has been meeting me in this season.

Yeah, for sure. Right. Cause there's so many

priorities. Yeah. So are there ways that you

think like you've been able to sort of help focus

yourself in that? Yeah. You know, one of the

practices that I started, so I have a, what's

called a personal rule of life, which is basically

like pre -deciding how you want to spend your

time to ensure that you're rooted in the Lord

and your relationships are prioritized and you

know, you're staying whole and well as a whole

human being. And practically to your question,

I practice silence in the morning. I get up real

early. I light a candle and I sit and work to

empty out my mind and the stress of what may

come and give it to the Lord and be open to what

he may receive. And I find it, it's one small

practice that just helps me be present and to

empty of my worry. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think

that's super helpful to just have that moment

of grounding, that moment of letting go because

yeah, there's so many things that are flying

at you. you. I think all of us, but like, especially

as CEO of a organization that's so large, that's

dealing with so much crisis, I think most of

the time. Yeah. Kali, you'll probably hear from

each of us that no matter what time we served,

the needs of the world are always greater than

the resources available to them. And so that

always adds an urgency and a stress to no matter

what season we're in. Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah. And so, Dave, when you were leading in

World Vision, you led through this sort of really

significant period of growth. And so, yeah, can

you just talk to us about like what was that

time like? What was it like to sort of build

that team and that supporter base as you were

serving as CEO? Well, one of the challenges I

had when I first came, I'd been in Australia

and then worked in U .S. as well. And so when

I came here and we were struggling a bit in terms

of our fundraising, and it was a sensitive situation.

My team around me, especially actually doing

film and so forth, they liked documentaries.

Okay. And and that was kind of the high bell.

Sure. So I here am coming from Australia and

the US where we had television programs. OK.

And we had both discovered that. documentaries

don't raise money. Okay, sure. Right? And so

my first kind of negative thing I had to deal

with, the guys were okay, but a couple of them

actually left. Sure. And it also meant we hired

the U .S. organization to help us, and that wasn't

very popular at the beginning, at the time. But

the numbers and everything just took off. And

so that was probably my biggest challenge, I

think, at the beginning. Because I didn't want

to make it bad or whatever. And I think what

helped is it was so dramatic in terms of our

increasing the money that we were raising. Sure.

So I think that was my biggest. Australia helped

me. Because it's kind of in between the U .S.

and here. So I did, you know, typically Americans

are kind of goofy sometimes. And so I probably

was, too. I don't know. But it helped me to not

be that way. Sure. So that was one of the really

important things that was there. And then the

other thing that I think, as I think back, we

just had great staff. I think of Bradlock, Names,

people. I think of Linda Tripp. She ran our government

relations. And we raised a lot of money. And

we had the other thing that was important. We

had an older gentleman. He was a retired Presbyterian

minister. Help me, Michael. Ken McMillan. Ken

McMillan. And he would wander around, you know,

and he had great... He was our minister at large.

Minister at large. Great title. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, and that was important. And then the other

person that I think was great was Don Pusterski.

He was an interesting character. He had been

part of InterVarsity. That was his background.

But he had a unique talent. Sure. He came up

with his own research. And he did a research

on young people, what their attitudes were. And

he would do that every year or two. And everybody

read it. I mean, the teachers, professors, whatever.

And he had a really great handle on what Christianity

was and what we needed to do. Sure. And his sort

of frame was to... Let me just give you you practice

the Great Commission. Yeah. And then you practice

the I've written this down because my memory

is not so hot. That's OK. Yeah. So and he had

these three pieces that that the great requirement,

the great requirement, the great command, the

Great Commission. And what's the other one? Hang

on. The Great Commandment. Great Commandment.

OK. That covers the whole thing. Okay. This sounds

pretty good. And the great requirement, by the

way, I'm stealing from his nose, is Micah 6 .8,

right? What does the Lord require of you? To

act justly, to love mercy, and to walk up to

the Lord. Right, right, right. Okay. And to love

your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. Okay. And his

book doing this? Yep. You can only get it now

for $150. Okay. Pocket change, really. But the

message is still cheap. Yeah. But meaningful.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, as you sort of described,

you know, making some hard choices, but then

seeing the fruit of that. Yeah. Right? And I

think, as you sort of described, surrounding

yourself with really good people. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. And our... I'm thinking of our finance

leader. We've always had great responsibility

there. That was really important. And never had

any... We didn't really have any troubles with

that. Sure. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm sure there

were some smaller things, but overall it was

really, really strong. Yeah. So that was another

part of the organization that was really important.

Sure. For sure. Yeah. I know you also sort of

have a more personal connection with World Vision

as well, sort of through your late daughter,

Jocelyn. So maybe do you want to tell us a little

bit about your family and how all of those pieces

overlap? Yeah. No. So we had our son and our

daughter. Son is older. And he when we came here,

he decided he wanted to go not do his university

here, but to do it in the United States. OK.

I had two sisters and their husbands in Seattle

area. So that's where he went. And so he got

his degree there. And then. He wanted to work

at World Vision. So he's now been working at

World Vision for the last decade. Okay. And he

leads the work they do with their major donors.

Okay. And pastors. And he does a major event

of each of that. And they raise billions of dollars.

Sure. It's unbelievable. But he's a very strong

Christian. He lost his wife to cancer as we lost

our daughter to his sister. But he's remarried

now. They've got five kids. Okay, yeah, yeah.

And they're doing really well. And let's see,

the oldest daughter is getting married this summer.

Okay, awesome. So that's another part that was

really, really interesting for us. Sure, sure.

And the hardest thing for me was I needed to

leave World Vision. but losing our daughter -in

-law was very difficult. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for

sure, for sure, yeah. Yeah, so you led World

Vision for a while, and then, Michael, you led

World Vision Canada for a little bit. And, yeah,

lots of ups and downs and through a pandemic

and all of these sorts of things. Yeah, so maybe

can you tell us a little bit about, you know,

what were some of the changes and what were some

of the stability that you found through your

time as leader? Yeah, I came back to World Vision.

I worked for them for five years before I left,

but came back in 2007 working for Dave, actually,

and got the privilege to do that for almost eight

years before I stepped into the role in 2015

and then served for a decade. That was my plan.

Oh, that was your plan. And his plan for me was

two weeks, right, Michael? What can I say? You

were probably a faster learner than I was. I

was Allison, so I think that's fair. But yeah,

so I mean, Dave and I worked closely together.

I was his number two chief operating officer

for a period of time. But you know what? I mean,

I think all of us would say that no matter what

the season. Yep. The world changed. So the things,

for example, that brought huge growth to World

Vision during the 80s and 90s through Dave's

early years, they just weren't the same anymore.

Sure. Think of how we consume media or images

and how we share information. And this was all

pre -internet. And it was when we could work

on a single channel of a telethon or something

like that. Sure. So it really required us to

look and look at a very dynamic, changing Canadian

environment. Yeah. But always coming back to

the same thing, which is how do we make sure

that we appeal to Canadians and show that they

can make a difference in the world? Sure. No

matter what their values are, what their perspectives

are, we wanted to offer that opportunity. Again,

with this idea that the needs of the world were

always greater than the resources available.

Sure. We had to figure out what needs to stay

the same. Yep. And what needs to change. So even

during the pandemic, which is probably, you know,

we all, you know, the giant shift in that time,

it changed everything. Sure. So often in our

world vision, we would talk about, you know,

think about disasters that were happening somewhere

else. Sure. The pandemic was really a disaster

that was happening somewhere else and here at

home. And it made a connection, but it fundamentally

had to change everything that we did, the way

we did our programming in places like Nueva Fonterra

and Honduras, and in how we connected with our

donors and supporters and our churches and all

of our partners here in Canada. So through those

times, we kind of took three things. One, we

always wanted to make sure that we, responded

to the needs. You had to look around to say what's

changing and how can you get ahead of those things

so that we can adapt, you know, using technology

differently, ways of connecting, even messaging

and recognizing what it means in a multicultural

world. But in addition to responding, we also

wanted to make sure that we protected what was

most important, particularly the needs of children

so that they were being served, protecting our

mission and our vision and our Christian identity.

But then also the third element, and this was

always key in any change, was to adapt. So responding,

protecting, but also adapting. If we weren't

also investing in new ways of thinking and trying

to get ahead of what was coming, then we grew

and became more effective because we were investing

in innovation and doing new things, all with

the drive, trying to drive toward that mission

and vision. So those aren't very specific examples,

but the overall approach was really key. And

I suspect that was the same for Dave and Allison

in their own context. Culture and context is

always shifting, right? So, yeah, I think that's

really helpful to think about the adapting and

the protecting and, yeah, responding to those

needs. So you mentioned protecting sort of the

Christian vision and values and identity of World

Vision. So, like, what did that look like? How

do you do that? Yeah. Well, that's a huge question,

right? Because World Vision is a Christian organization.

But we really have wanted to not only just talk

to other Christians. Sure. but to invite all

Canadians to join us to say, look, we are motivated

by our Christian faith to reach out to those

in need. It's Jesus who said life in all its

fullness that we want to have for every child.

But you don't have to be a Christian to join

us. And so it was always that really interesting

balance. And Dave modeled this from the start.

How do we remain true to who we are and the values

and our motivation and even making sure that

we know that the way that we do our program work

is different because we're Christians? But how

do we invite others to join us no matter what

their perspective? And in a multicultural society

like Canada. It's that can be pretty tricky to,

you know, what is, what does it mean to be open

and, and listen, but also be really true to our

vision and mission without compromising those,

those kinds of things. So it's about focusing

on the things that hold us together rather than

the things that take us apart. For sure. Even

within the Christian community. So it's been,

it's been wonderful. And God has blessed us,

I think, to, and I love the fact that we have

supporters from, I can still say we yell. Yes,

you can. I'm enjoying this. I'm paying lots of

attention. We have supporters. from all different

backgrounds. Sure. But we're firmly grounded

in the church, including partnerships like the

one we have here. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I would

just add, right, that this expression of our

Christian faith here in Canada reflects what

we do on the ground. Our effectiveness is because

we partner across, you know, in technical terms,

we'll say Christian faith, faith, other faith

and non -faith actors to drive whole life and

whole community transformation. Right. And we

do that being grounded in our faith and in our

witness to Christ. We talk about being a witness

to Christ in life, in word, in deed, and in sign,

which means we can faithfully express his goodness

in any place in the world. Right. And so we live

that out in Canada as well. And do it without

any strings attached. Yeah. I think that's the

really important thing. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think

I love that, that sense of like, we're grounded

in our faith, but our faith doesn't limit what

we're able to do or who we're able to work with.

Right. That our why is Jesus. Exactly. But Jesus

is. In all of the places, even if people don't

know he's there yet. Very often it's coming alongside

and just joining Jesus in the work that he and

the Holy Spirit are already doing. Yeah, for

sure. That was really important for me when I

came here, that I need to read right away because

the U .S., it was all Christians. Sure. And I

think Michael's handled this, and you're handling

it too, is that we've got lots of people that

don't go to church. Sure. but they've got Christianity

somewhere in the background, or they see us at

least we're honest or we care, whatever, and

that needs to be respected. And I think that's

been consistent with all of our leaders here.

Sure. Yeah, I mean, you've managed to do that

too, because you're coming from what would be

an area where it was more Christian. than probably

in terms of our supporters. You know what I mean?

We always wanted to show integrity. You know,

you don't want to present as an onion and peel

the onions. back layer by layer. And then all

of a sudden in the middle, I don't know, you

find a surprise. So you want to be able to express

that. And so you want to make sure that no matter

how you say and who you are, you're clear on

who you are, what values motivate you and you

can go deeper, but that there's integrity all

the way. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

So, um, Allison, as you think about Trinity's

partnership with Nueva Frontera, is there one

thing that you think our church family should

sort of know about that? Is there like one piece

that you're like, this is really important? You

know, I think it would be what I left you with

today is to recognize that God is the one who

multiplies your, in some ways it might feel seemingly

small. In other ways, it feels like a really

significant sacrifice, right? But God is at work

multiplying your yes. and your investment in

one child and one family and one community in

ways that only he can. So I would say, you know,

as you think about the season ahead and getting

to that, what is it, two years and three months,

you know, towards us celebrating them graduating

into self -sufficiency. To keep walking that

faith with the Lord, right? And we were reminded,

right, the great commandment to continue to love

God with all our heart and soul and mind and

strength. And as an outpouring of that, to love

our neighbors as ourselves. And so to keep following

that path with Jesus one step and one day at

a time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I just add

to that? Because I think what Allison's message

is today. speaks to our Christian identity, which

is that God does multiply. We're not just a ministry

of programs, but we're a presence, prayer, and

this promise of transformation. And it's only

through the work of the Holy Spirit and the partnership

alongside that we can multiply. And that's pretty

amazing. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes

when I am talking to people about the story of

the five loaves and the two fish, I'll look at

it and say, yeah, you know what? Five loaves

and two fish is not enough to feed 5 ,000 people

until you add Jesus. Yes. Right? That without

the Jesus bit, the multiplication doesn't happen.

Right. So we bring our bits, but like God does

some amazing things that we could never have

imagined. Okay. Yeah. So when you think about

like local churches in Canada, I think sometimes

there's a tension like between, you know, providing

for our community and providing for like the

international community. So like, how do you

find those pieces sort of coming together? You

know, I often think about, you know, add this

to another commission in Acts 1 verse 8, right?

Acts 1:8

And it says, and you will be my witnesses, right?

In Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends

of the earth. And so I inherently would say that

as a Jesus follower, we have a call to our local

neighbors first and foremost. And so I would

encourage everyone listening to, you know, consider

the way in which God calls you to care for your

local community, right? Whether that's prayer

or... you know, fellowship over meals, generosity

of home and spirit and sharing of life, right?

Volunteering at food banks, so many opportunities.

And what we know is that while there is so much

need in our country, we were reminded in 2020,

right? The great equalizer in some ways it felt.

And yet in Canada, we have safety nets and security

in ways that the most vulnerable simply don't

have. have, right? Whether that is in certain

forms of policy or in the provision of healthcare

or in access to education, the general protection

of your rights, food that is available in certain

ways for the majority. And so I would remember

that alongside the calling and the example of

Jesus, right? Who favored the outcasts, the marginalized,

the poor among Him, and to encourage you to go

and do likewise. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank

you so much. And I love that Trinity has a deep

connection with the local community, but also

makes space for partnerships like this. And I

think all three of us are child sponsors at World

Vision. I've been there with Trinity in 2023

in Honduras, and to hear from our sponsored child.

So it's a reminder, right, of that international

connection, even while we're right here. Yeah,

that it's not an either -or. It's let's figure

out how we can make space for both. So good.

Extending the table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anything

else you want to sort of leave us with? Yeah.

Any, any final sort of words of encouragement

or wisdom? I looked at Michael or Dave. Well,

I had one story. Yeah. Of our, our daughter.

Yeah. And, and she went, it was kind of crazy.

There was a, a movement in Uganda and it was

just, It was unbelievable. And it was led partly

by a woman. And also, and it was Sudan was part

of it. Sure. And they were just, and it was called,

they had a movement and they were killing children.

It was just a disaster. And I don't know if it

was the greatest idea. Anyway, she had not traveled

overseas. She was 20 years old. And and then

I had a chance. We were going to go to see what

was going on. Yeah. And that was probably one

of the heaviest things in her life that she ever

experienced. Sure. She said that to me when we

got there and she was, you know, kind of observing.

But then there were these young girls who had

been raped and everything imaginable in a camp.

And she just walked in and started talking. Yeah.

Yeah. and talking and walking with these girls,

just comfort in them. And that was one of the

things she told me. She said, Daddy, I saw all

the things. I know what you're doing. But he

said, now I understand what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of the things

I'll never forget. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

That really personal experience, that personal

connection and knowing that like in all of this

work that world vision does, it's, it's so big

that I think sometimes we like stop to talk about

the numbers of it. And like, that's really important

to see that whole impact, but then yeah, to bring

it back in and to say, these are real kids. These

are real families, real lives being changed by

personal connection and impact is yeah. So important.

Yeah. So thank you so much. for sharing dave

and thank you all for being part of our podcast

today for taking this time to share your stories

and your ministry it's been so encouraging to

know yeah that this partnership that Trinity

has had with World Vision has been so impactful.

And yet that you're doing so much good work that

we are all able to participate in this work together.

And thank you for tuning into this week's episode

of Trinity Talks. Whether you are sort of part

of the Trinity family or not, whether you...

have been part of a partnership or a connection

with World Vision or not, I hope that you found

encouragement in this conversation. And I hope

that you feel challenged to go out to live the

Great Commission, the Great Requirement, and

the Great Commandment, and to love God, to love

your neighbor in all of the spaces where you

find yourself. And we will see you again next

week.